and be sure to tune in at nine for rachel maddow's exclusive interview with former secretary of state hillary clinton. it is secretary clinton's first tv appearance since trump federal indictments. you will not want to miss it. that is tonight's reidout. all in starts right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ all in starts righ>> good eveni, d.c.. i am symone sanders-townsend in for chris hayes. we are on donald trump indictment watch, yet again, as we await what appears to be an eminent fourth indictment of the ex president, this time coming out of the state of georgia. today, grand jury in atlanta began hearing evidence in a long running investigation led by fulton county district attorney fani willis into donald trump and his efforts to steal the 2020 election in her state. we know that this probe has been focusing on the now infamous phone call that donald trump made in january of 2021, pressuring state officials to

change the election results in trump's favor. >> they are shredding ballots, in my opinion, based on what i've heard. and they are removing machinery, and they are moving it as fast as they can, both of which are criminal fines. and you can't let it happen, and you are letting it happen. you know, i mean, i am notifying you that you are letting it happen. look, all i want to do is this -- i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more then we have because we won the state. >> for two and a half years, fani willis has been investigating the ex presidents allies, some of whom formed a fake slate of electors. now, more than 20 people have been told that they may face charges as a result of willis's sprawling investigation. throughout the day, several key witnesses were spotted at the courthouse, including two former democratic lawmakers,

state senator jim jordan, and states representative v when. they were both present at hearings in georgia in december of 2020. and at that hearing, donald trump's lawyer rudy giuliani told lawmakers they should not certify the election results. i should note, rudy giuliani testified in front of the special grand jury in the georgia investigation last year. the prior iteration of the grand jury that is meeting today. it is also been informed that he is a target of the district attorney's probe. also spotted at the courthouse today, according to multiple reports, gabriel sterling. gabriel sterling as a top election officials in georgia who spoke out against donald trump's claims of fraud in the wake of the election. we do not know for sure if he testified before the grand jury. although the new york times reports that he spent several hours at the courthouse. sterling and not said whether or not he received a subpoena. and then there were two more witnesses who showed up earlier than expected. and atlanta journalist named george cheating, he was set to testify tomorrow. but instead, he was called to

the courthouse this afternoon, posting quote, change of plans, they are moving faster than they thought. chidi was subpoenaed to testify about, quote, barging into a semi clandestine meeting of republicans pretending to be georgia's official electors in december 2020. also appearing sooner than planned was the former lieutenant governor of georgia, jeff duncan. he's a republican and former trump supporter who broke with the ex president in 2020. earlier today, donald trump attacked duncan on social media, saying that he, quote, should not testify before the grand jury. trump also called him, quote, a nasty disaster for those looking into the election fraud that took place in georgia. when duncan we left the courthouse a little over an hour ago, he told nbc news that he thinks this moment was a pivot point for his pardon. >> i think it's important to tell the truth. i have to respond to my constitutional duty, and answer to the grand jury -- it's important for us as a

country. we cannot forget exactly what happened. let americans decide. we will let america decide what's best for us. as a republican, this is a perfect point for us. this is a pivot point -- the pivot point is we need to get this party back in the right direction, and to do that, we're gonna have to go through tough stuff. >> joining us now from the fulton county courthouse is nbc news correspondent, blayne alexander. blaine, it is good to see you. where do things stand at this hour. what can you tell us? >> reporter: well, symone, things are certainly moving. i have been in touch with a source of mine, with direct knowledge of these proceedings. and i'm told that that grand jury is currently convening right now. we know that fulton county d.a. fani willis wanted to wrap this up tonight. we know that she got through at least seven witnesses. the grand jury took a break, and as i mentioned, i've been told now that they are voting right now. this is an acceleration of the

timeline that we were expecting, a case of this magnitude, we expected it would take at least two days to present. there were two witnesses that were lined up for tomorrow. in fact, for whatever reason, the d.a. and her team decided to call them in the middle of the day, basically saying, hey, listen, i know we told you to come in tomorrow. but come in today. we want to get your testimony today. one of those witnesses is george chidi, an independent journalist here in atlanta, who's kind of been almost live tweeting his experience of this, talking about waiting in the hallway, talking about talking with another witness, former lieutenant governor jeff duncan we just saw right there. so is getting bits and pieces of what this process looks like. again, the biggest update on timing, according to my sources, with knowledge of these proceedings izzy grand jury is currently voting. symone? >> so, the grand jury is voting right now, blayne. what happens after that? walk us -- what have your sources told you about the chain of events once the grand jury comes to this? >> reporter: we are watching every corner of this house. so what we understand is going to happen that because of

georgia law, georgia law requires that a moment an indictment is handed up, it has to be unsealed. there's no lack period. there's no waiting period. that unsealing process, essentially it looks like taking the indictment over to the presiding judge, in this case it is judge robert mcburney who's overseeing much of this entire process from the beginning until now. taking it to him as he is still on the bench right now, to look at the indictments. he will hand the mac. that constitutes unsealing. and then, we will get some sort of no vacation, whether it's from the d.a.'s office, whether it's from the clerks office, that will be when that information becomes public. and we will see the indictment and see what was decided on, symone? >> lastly, blayne, because i know you need to get back and get this information for us. we are all waiting. are we going to hear from d.a. fani willis tonight? do you have any intel on that? >> reporter: we expect to. we understand that she is planning on holding some sort of conference, speaking in some form, once all of this is wrapped up. so we've been reading the tea

leaves, kind of watching, waiting to see what her office. we've been watching for potential places where a press conference maybe. we do expect to get some sort of notification from the d.a., whether it's a formal statement, or a press conference later tonight, symone. >> all right, blayne alexander, thank you, very, very much. please, keep us posted. all right, i want to bring in ari melber right now, nbc news senior legal correspondent. ari, are you there? >> i'm there, how are you? >> i am great, ari. the grand jury its voting right now. what can you tell us? >> we can't say much. we do know this is this long running investigation. we do know, as we've been covering today, there's been a lot of interest, all the witnesses coming in. and we have this reporting from our team now that they are voting. beyond that, of course, we can't get ahead of how long that process takes, what exactly they are voting on. you can imagine for example a scenario where the d.a. submits

charges that were related to, say, one individual or more than one individual, that wallets to a small number of charges, or a large number of charges. we know from the grand jury process that basically, this is the instrument of charging. we heard a lot about the earlier special purpose grand jury, that was the investigation side. if you want to simplify it, what's been leading up until tonight, you had a process of a local system for grand juries, investigators or police. and now we are in the d.a. prosecution side. but this grand jury, basically, it's going to be presented with these potential charges. and it's either going to vote yes. and all grand juries in america have a relatively low standard, that is to say you don't have to prove the whole case. you're not going to be beyond reasonable doubt -- it's much lower standard. they can say either yes to go forward, or they can vote no, they don't think it's meeting that standard, and they also say no to those charges. it's definitely interesting and big news that they begun voting. but we can't say a ton more about that until we see what they say. >> okay, ari, stay right there.

please do not leave us. i want to bring in robert james. he served as the district attorney for dekalb county georgia, which is right next to fulton county. and government weight is here, she's the former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan. and is now a professor at university of michigan law school. thank you both for being here. i want to what start with you, robert. we have seen at this 0.3 indictments of the ex president. and each of those indictments have been speaking indictments. you know, they kind of sounded like a story. are we going to see that here in the fulton county case, if in fact an indictment is returned by the grandeur grand jury? >> it depends on what the charges are. if it's a rico charge, that's absolutely what's gonna be. it's gonna be a narrative, it's gonna be a story. because rico indictments traditionally come down that way, because you are alleging multiple criminal acts that

have come together to sort of create one big picture. so yes, if it is a rico indictment, you will see a narrative, you will see a story told, and it will have details. >> so, can we just break down a rico indictment for the folks at home. why would a rico -- and we have been talking about for weeks now. there's been a lot of speculation about rico charges. but why is that the way in which folks think that district attorney willis is leaning? >> look, you've got multiple we latent criminal acts. you've got the phone call, which is potentially criminal activity. you have voting machines in dekalb county, georgia, which will be -- a huge trespass under georgia law. that is potential criminal activity. and you also have the alleged fake electors. so as a prosecutor, you would assert or allege that the reason for all this activity was singular, which was to keep

the former president in office. and so, what you are looking at, conspiratorial activity, you are looking at several individuals that were doing different things but for one purpose. and in layman's terms, that is sort of the essence of what a rico charge is. >> i want to bring ari back in here now. ari, you know, we know that specifically, rudy giuliani was named as a target in this investigation. but there could potentially be others. what should we be looking for as we wait in anticipation of what he grand jury says? >> it's a great question, symone. as you pointed out, we have been following this out of georgia for a while. indeed, it was longer running then when jack smith took over the coup probe. you mentioned there's giuliani. there are other individuals who might not have been the target, but brought in. we have footage of some of the witnesses. we know senator lindsey graham, for example, was ultimately a witness as well. and so, one of the questions that we can't answer at this

moment, but with the grand jury voting, we hope we are able to answer that soon, which is white senate ricky news tonight, is how these charges are being presented. for the recent example, jack smith pro, everyone recalls that you had what is called the speaking indictment, because it had a narrative about defending donald trump. and it had six unnamed coconspirators, none of whom were indicted. we just don't know yet what they are presenting is gonna go in a number of directions, and involve for example a focus on potentially donald trump as a target, and deal with other people later or not at all. or whether it could happen to more of those people. the reference was made earlier, and i wanted to bring robert in on this as well, as we are all kind of doing the coverage together. the reference was made earlier regarding that leaked document, that case information document, and i'm just curious, robert, without using that document to advance the news, because we have been very careful all day to say nbc news has not separately obtain that, and it may be something that does not really to the charges we see. what in that overlap with anything that i know rico and

other statutes that could be relevant tonight? >> well, so, in particular, i believe there was a forgery or a conspiracy or an attempt to commit forgery. if you are looking at the alleged fake electors, they started by something that was in fact not to, or at least what the d.a. is going to allege, which is donald trump was actually elected president, right? they were duly elected electors. and they will send that after the u.s. senate and other places. you know, that is one offense, you know, that i would use if i were the prosecutor for this case, as what we call an act which we look at rico. >> and i will send this to barbara. when we talk about a predicate act, or the way that rico does work in georgia, and long before we saw this document today, there have been many legal experts, lawyers, and others who talked about whether the state version of rico, the racketeering influence, is that organization to act could be in play here.

i'm curious what you think, again, just what the underlying facts might justify as this grand jury, we are told, does vote now for the first time? >> i think rico is perfectly appropriate for this case. you know, people tend to think of it as being used only in mafia cases. and that's how it originated. it's been years note of different kinds of cases, including fani willis. in my own district, we used it for street gangs, and we used it for corrupt public officials. and as roberts said, the beauty of it is it creates an umbrella. and you could bring all of these different predicate acts under that umbrella, so that the jury gets to hear the full scope of the criminal scheme, which maybe fast, and we have some very different schemes with different people doing different tasks. but it's all coming together for that same purpose. it would seem to me that this is really a perfect case for rico. the advantage of rico in addition to it being a fulsome picture of the trial is that unlike the federal rico statute,

the georgia rico statute has a five-year mandatory minimum sentence. >> that's a striking reminder, which again, any potential defendant would care about what you just said. we have some reporters as well that are charging all this for us in georgia and from the courthouse. before i go to them, though, barbara, for those of us keeping time, i'm curious what you think about, what if anything can be gleaned from the length of time that the grand jury proceeds. we do know, and i will remind viewers who may be catching up in the evening in the east coast, this was something that began today. we were told, it could be up to a two-day process, that they did hold the night past the usual court joining time five pm. again, you can go long, something else happens. again, you could go long because you are doing what they're doing now. you finally got the voting process. and rachel maddow and others are standing by for our coverage continuing here by the end of this hour. so, i am curious, barbara, do you glean anything from how long the voting process takes? >> yes, i think the fact that they have state this late

suggests to me that they are there to vote, and to try to wrap this up. and there's no reason for them to stay well, well past five pm, which is sort of the normal court hours if they were planning to vote tonight. and there has been reporting that they are voting. that could take some time. if there are multiple counts, the person, floor person will go through each count. they will look at the elements of the offenses. they may discuss some of those. they may decide to indict on some counts and not on others. but if there are multiple counts, it could take, you know, sometime. it could take an hour or more as they go through all this evidence. so, we could be late into the night. now, i can't see if only willis thought that they are going to be there for hours and hours and hours, she would not keep them up. so, it suggests to me that they think it's coming, you know, relatively soon. >> you know, i would never want to overly paraphrase the careful, careful exposition you gave us. but it sounds that you are saying soon, not too soon, just somewhat soon, in the next hour or two.

katie fang is standing by. so, our panel is going to stay, we've got a lot going on. katie, you have been at the courthouse there in fulton county. you have plenty of legal experience, including as a prosecutor, what can you tell us just about what you are learning and seeing tonight? >> so, obviously, as you have mentioned, ari, there was the anticipation that this was gonna take two days. the fact that we have heard from one particular witness by the name of george chidi, who was supposed to testify tomorrow. but he indicated on social media that he has been told that he doesn't need to testify today, there should be some addition about the presentment of that case by d.a. fani willis. so, just for our viewers to understand, there are 23 members of the grand jury. the law requires that 16 of those 23 must be present for the entirety of the presentation of the prosecution's case. but that only takes 12 of those 23 grand jurors to be able to vote a charge through. i also want to let people know that once this indictment is returned, a true bill, as we call, it is return, that indictment will be unsealed.

and the way they're going to be would on the indictment is as follows. it will stay, say the state of georgia versus the following defendants, maybe it's donald trump followed by several others. on the right side of the front page of the indictment, it will also show the charges that are being brought, that have been approved by the grand jury. and underneath each of those defendants names, you will see an identification of which number count applies to that particular defendant slash codefendant. but very, i think, key for us to think about at this time, considering the threats menacing that you have been seeing from the former president in this case, it's the fact that the jurors names will be revealed, ari, on that indictment. their names would be printed on a certain page of that indictment. those that were not present to vote, their names would be scratched out. but you can still see their names as they sat in service. so i think it's really important for people to realize, unlike other cases, or you have total secrecy when it comes to the grand jury numbers, there is a level of transparency in the state of georgia, including cameras inside the courtroom,

which is a rarity as you and i both know. there's a level of transparency in the state that's going to reveal a lot of what happened in this case. >> yeah, katie, you walk us through several points. i would love for you to just elaborate a little bit more on the math you were doing. we hear so much about the trial process. and sometimes, again, it's important to distinguish, we hear the word jury. the jury, the people we see on television shows, 12 in the box, unanimous, you are reminding everyone that while every defendant is afforded that right, we are not reporting on a charge. but we know trump is a defendant in other cases. we know the jury trial, it appears, to convict it's unanimous. walk us through in more detail what you are explaining. i think it's more important tonight the reasons why many people have heard, oh, yes grand juries cannot indict even am sandwich, that maybe a slight overstatement. but the math that you said, it means that they won't have to win over every sure. they don't have to prove it without reasonable doubt.

they just have to put sufficient evidence for what you are telling us. i'd love for you to reflect on that, as i remind our viewers here joining us from the east coast, we are not following at least the beginning initiation of grand jury voting and that trump election case in georgia. >> yeah, so, ari, you raised some very important points. so, number one, you do not have to have a unanimous, quote, verdict reached by grand jurors. as i said, in the state of georgia, you need to have at least 12 of the 23 grand jurors that have sat through the presentment of the evidence to be able to put a charge through. number two, another critical point, the burden of proof in a criminal case when you go to a trial is beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt. but the burden on the prosecution in this instance instanin the presentment of evidence and the grand jury, is just probable cause. as we know, probable cause is a much lower standard. and so, to your point, not only could not all of the charges be agreed upon, to the reckless number of 12, ari, but you're

also have all the co-defendants, the people that were the targets of the investigation. there may not be enough votes return. but considering the expediency, the efficiency by which has this has been a chief, i think there's going to be an overwhelming number of charges that are returned. the biggest question on my mind right now is that one indictment with several codefendants, which would support from a practical purpose a rico count, this idea of a broader spread conspiracy with multiple actors and multiple predicate acts of crimes. or is it gonna be one of several indictments? well, the coffee county election in this richmond case lives in its own space. so, ari, we are waiting to see the unsealing of the indictment. and once that happens, judge mcburney, coincidently has been on this case since day one. >> it is fascinating, katie, like many of our legal experts, we are very fortunate to have you especially on the scene outside the courthouse. stay near the camera, please. we will be coming back to you, i think, throughout the

evening. appreciate it. we had katie outside the court. now, we go inside the courthouse. we are thrilled to have a reporter who's actually inside where the action is. tomorrow aliment is idlest with the atlanta journal-constitution. they've been covering this investigation as well as what happened in the grandchildren's at the courtroom, quite close to what we are told is now the vote. this is i believe by phone. can you hear me all right? >> yes, thank you for having me. >> thank you for making the time. what is happening there tonight? >> well, there are a whole bunch of very anxious journalists sitting inside robert not bernese courtroom here on the eighth floor of the fulton county courthouse. and everyone is anxiously following along on twitter, tweets from katie phang, from george chidi, the witness who was called, who was still apparently waiting in the d.a.'s office and we are h anxiously waiting for any bit of news about what might come. r >> exactly, i think everyone s awaiting these tender hooks. it's an interesting newsworthy night. we just don't know a lot about

the process that delivered. and we certainly don't know in realtime with the vote is, although as soon as we get, it will be the breaking news tonight. stay with, me tamar. i'm gonna bring one of our legal experts, andrew weissmann, who's here in our headquarters, our newsroom in new york. and he may have thought, or a question for you in a moment. my follow-up question to you is, although we are getting into the weeds here, that's okay, because we are waiting on the news. i am curious since you are there and you are in it when today it started to feel different? because when we started the day, there was a plan -- there was talk of ten witnesses over two days. and as katie phang was just reminding viewers from her perch there, outside the courtroom, and you are currently inside, more witnesses were pulled in. and we start to get the feeling from those close, and on the record statements from the judge, this could all go down tonight. if it goes down tonight, i can't tell america what the answer would be. but if they finish voting, soon america have the answer. is this a long running georgia probe that results in the state indictment of donald trump? or not? we could learn that very soon.

so i put that question to you, and then andrew may join us. >> there were two interesting moments to me this afternoon. the first was when something happened with the fulton county clerk office, that writer was caught for a few minutes. it seemed like what could be an indictment, documents sitting on the clarks website. it was quickly taken down. the clerk later said that they were erroneous documents and not the real thing. but that was certainly an interesting thing where we haven't seen a ton of answers on. a second moment, we heard from two of those witnesses, george chidi and former lieutenant governor jeff duncan who set initially they're becoming in. and all of a sudden, they mentioned they're going to be coming in the afternoon. and we all got the signal, oh, maybe the d.a. is trying to do that one. it really seems like we will be getting answers tonight. >> i have a question for you, which is it seems like the process here is so much more open, this voting of the grand

jury is obviously, you know, under seal. in terms of what's gonna happen in the courtroom, it sounds like that's pretty open compared to what we saw in manhattan and in the two federal cases. is it your expectation that a decision to be able to watch that so-called hand of the indictment, that we are than gonna be able to see the charges shortly thereafter? >> i think so. and it becomes a document, a public document once it is handed to the judge. it might take a little bit for the clerks office to publish that publicly on their website. but at that point, it becomes public. so hopefully within minutes or maybe one hour, we will be able to see that document. it's worth noting that at this point, we are not expecting former president trump or anyone like that to be showing up in the courthouse, for an arraignment or surrender. that is negotiated in the weeks to come, if he will be indicted here. but it is certainly amazing the sheer openness of george's

rules compared to many other jurisdictions. >> yeah, and, tamar hallerman, doing reporting for us from inside the courtroom, so many eyes there. thank you for helping on the phone and making time and your reporting position today. we might call on you again. >> anytime. >> absolutely. if you are watching here, we are approaching the half hour mark, 8:30 on the east coast. we have reports that the grand jury in fulton county, georgia has begun voting. again, we don't know how long that takes and what their vote will be. but based on all the information we have, we do expect to bring you that news tonight. we expect to get an answer outside of that fulton county courtroom, as we were just discussing with our colleague katie phang. this is one of those news stories that would be simple and will be clear if it follows a normal legal course. either, this efficient number of these jurors will vote to charge, and we will learn what the charges are and who they charge. or, and this is more rare but

always possible, they won't reach that number. that also is a legal process we would learn about, because they would return a notable, basically, no charges. that's what we are going to learn. we've got our coverage coming. we've got rachel joining us shortly. andrew weissmann is here with me in the newsroom. and i don't mean to be a broken record, but i try to be very clear that we are in the shank of the story, we are in the moment of this story, but we can't get ahead of what's coming. so we want to be very clear about that. with regard to this grand jury process, which is somewhat different in georgia. we were reminiscing about how it starts with an investigative grand jury, and then it becomes this more traditional grand jury, and then we have been hearing about how it's a little more open, a little more chatty, perhaps compared to other places. certainly, from your time as a federal prosecutor, what is on your mind tonight as you watch this process play out? >> i am very focused on who else, if anyone, will be charged. so, you know, everyone is expecting that donald trump

will be charged, whether it's tonight or tomorrow, or the next day, that he is certainly one of the people. the reason i am very focused on who else is because it's something that we have covered over and over again, which is state charges are not subject to a federal part pardon. meaning if donald trump or any other republican ally becomes president, ari, that it's not possible to get rid of those charges. so if you are a rudy giuliani or a mark meadows or a sydney powell, and you are now indicted in state court, you can be sitting there thinking, oh, i'm going to get a federal pardon. that does not apply in this case. so the pressure on them to cooperate, you know, in the face and the teeth of these charges, depending on if they are charged, how strong they appear, it's going to be immense because that's going to be more like the normal process by which prosecutors obtain cooperating witnesses.

you develop a really strong case. and what donald trump has wielded so far, both when i was in the special counsel mueller investigation, and even now, is this idea of, don't worry, i have your back. i can pardon anyone like mark roger stone, michael flynn. but here for state charges, he does not have that ability. it will be interested to see who else if, anyone is charged, and what -- >> and you alluded to the idea that that was a fortification your team could not have under mueller? >> when we couldn't charge the president under doj policy. but we had to deal with the dangling of pardons because we were not dealing with federal cases. and not only did we have the dangling of pardons, we have the actual bestowing of pardons. and almost every single person in our investigation who didn't cooperate. there were those people who cooperated, but did not get pardons. and there is people who, you know, essentially were tough,

loyal to the then president, they got pardoned. >> stay with me. i want to tell viewers, as we hit the half hour mark here on the east coast, we have reporting the grand jury in georgia has begun voting. that's a process that could take some time. it could take long time. what we have no reason to think it will take all night. which means this is the middle of the news moment. we think we are going to get this news. why is this night different than other nice? what does it look a bit different? well, it's because one of this big news nights that's unrolling, breaking news. which is coming up around the nine pm hour here on monday, east coast time. but we have also been scrambling the jets to cover this for you as we have learned that this was coming. i have mentioned earlier in the day, we heard this was going to the be a two-day process -- and then they're trying to get all the witnesses. and we have become the scrambling. i am thrilled to tell you as our special breaking coverage continues, my colleague nicole wallace also joins us to help with the coverage. welcome back. wallace also>> it is so nice tou invoke the word shank of the night -- [inaudible] [laughter]

it's a deep cut from my friend bryan. you know, just sitting here and having this conversation with you, we covered your investigation to donald trump. and there is something so trumpian about this georgia probe because the crimes happened on tape, right? another ghost, that comey with the tapes -- there is a tape of a lot of what trump did, and some could be charged tonight. and i remember telling my viewers, i try not to give homework. i know you just gave a -- but i remember listening to the whole case of the georgia call, and tweeting out, listen to the whole thing, you have to, their cause to have that gift of his brazenness, of his criminality, and his effort to cheat on such a lengthy tape, you understood all the levers he was pulling, the chief of staff was on the call with him, you understood all the shady lawyers he was deploying, i think jen ellis, sydney powell and others -- you really got a window into

the coup plot in realtime. >> and the fact that there was a tape, that brad raffensperger and his staff knew who they were dealing with, that this was something if you did not have it on tape, that the president was gonna say, it did not happen. >> right, right, and get away with it. i think by this point, he had gotten away with so much. >> exactly. for me, when i think back to the special counsel investigation, i keep thinking of one scenario with, that we just thought this close the roof off of everything, which was john mcentee coming into our office saying, i need to tell you something. and recounts for us the story of the president saying, i never asked to have mueller fired. i didn't say that. now, i want you to write a memo to the file that he will give to me. and i am going to say i never did that. and said, again, i can't do that, that's obstruction -- >> because it was a lie. he had them. >> i'm not going to jail for you. and to the point of holding him

now to count is so important because it's not that this was the first time, but it certainly was a data point for him that i could do this even with my own white house counsel, and that if it becomes public, nothing will happen. >> it is so striking with a document that was posted today, which is named case information, and may or may not be what they are voting upright now. this is a vast story, we'll follow it where it goes. but the document does refer by date to that call. and it calls that, again, this may or may not be what they are voting on. when we get it, we will bring it to you. it's called what we call an indicator, andrew, if it came out of the office. we call, have you ever applied by accident, and you're like -- >> yes, yes. this may be guilty, so that maybe what this is or it may not. we have been reporting this all day. reuters first went up with it. but to your point, january two,

2021, the day on the document. and then, it says, georgia law solicitation of violation of oath by public officer. i would love for you to talk us through, that fact that occurred, that there was some sort of solicitation. and then, you might tell us what it means when that becomes a crime, even if it says the officer doesn't do it right, because trying to set up a bribe is a crime even if people don't want to take your bright. >> right. you alluded to this, and we all became law school students. it's almost like the hotel commercial, i'm not a lawyer, and i just stayed in whatever the chain is that prepared me for today's mission. i think we have learned that even if the crime is not carried out, the commission of the crime is chargeable. and i think to the conversation you two were having, bracing and -- we will learn more about the role of the coconspirators, and why it came to the call, it's because what happens to trump after five years of brazen corruption and lawbreaking is

that he's so brazen and the people around him, so they all hung on the call. and only raffensperger's side thought to recorded. and by this point, they have been so many tapes and so many books written on takes taken when trump was misbehaving. but the idea of all the coconspirators sitting on that call and the list of charges, it will be interesting to understand how many apply just to trump, and how many people apply to the other people who were on the call and involved in the conspiracy. i think this cnn reporting late yesterday was fascinating. we knew about, thanks to the reporting in the washington post, we knew about what happened in this conservative georgia county. we did not know if it was fed into giuliani, sydney powell, and lo and behold, donald trump inside the oval. if you have worked in the white house, you are corny about -- you view them, being an american president, you view these things as sacred. and to think this would break into a local voting system, that something goes to the oval

office, makes your stomach flip. >> as you say, cnn had reporting of that piece of information becoming evidence. i do want to get a response, we reserve the right to interject for breaking news -- one hillyard is in front of the courthouse with some of the new reporting. he's gathered. what can you tell us? >> right, from some of the blues of what i'm understanding right now, the investigation, the fact that this expanse beyond even 2020. that as far as, you know, september 2021, trump in september of 2021, long after he left the white house, in a letter to brad raffensperger, he quite explicitly said, quote, people do not understand why you, brad, governor kemp refused to acknowledge despite proven facts, and fight so hard that the election truth not be told. this speaks to the extent to which trump knowingly lost the election here. and they are very, frankly, quick to come out with this indictment, evidence that the public has not yet seen, about communications between the likes of clark, giuliani,

sydney powell, and donald trump himself, to speak to the fact that donald trump in 2020 knew that in fact the election fraud claims that he was propagating, but also true detail the on here in front of a senate subcommittee, and then an official proceeding was propagating. they knew that they were false. rudy giuliani just last month was part of a lawsuit by the to fulton county elections workers who he had claimed were stuffing ballots into voting machines here in fulton county, acknowledged that he had made false statements about those two workers in fulton county. we also know that donald trump on election night, before it devotes even finished being counted in fulton county, quote, it's ultimately clear that we have won georgia. there are no never going to catch us. and to this day, they continue to -- he continues to propagate that he actually won georgia. so what we are looking at here is ultimately a republican party apparatus in the state that has aided donald trump. and now the question is whether

fani willis or whether this grand jury here believe that these state laws or broken here. we know that the anticipation those witnesses, george chidi as well as jeff duncan, they were supposed to go before the grand jury tomorrow. but abruptly here this afternoon, fani willis's office ask them to come in and testify. both men have done so now. and now, apparently, their final witnesses intended to go before the grand jury, apparently they're not going to be brought in to testify. in fact, instead, she went straight to vote here, as a thunderstorm began here outside downtown atlanta. >> yeah, vaughn, you told us several things including every of the case, if charged, which is the vote we are waiting on. that could really stretch from early november out until 2021. that is certainly a wider calendar than the jack smith charge, but it may speak to what americans have learned on this process, that we actually take seriously the different laws and different places, and what happened in georgia, and

the evidence of it may run longer. before we lose you, at least in this part, i'm sure we are going back to you -- you walk us through the high-level arcane legal reporting. and i have to ask you the more basic on the ground stuff. you mention the weather. we look behind you, in your shot, it looks pretty mellow, particular for what we can see. can you tell us what it's like down there outside this courtroom tonight with everything going on? because from the view, it looks almost call. > this is only the second biggest event in atlanta. about 39 minutes ago, ari, beyoncé took the stage about half a mile from where we were standing. so this event here, it's a quite downtown atlanta, at least this part right now. it's outside, the media and the cameras that are gathered. but police have now shut down the streets around the county courthouse. district attorney fani willis offices and her staff offices are the building adjacent to hear. but this portion of downtown atlanta has now been shut down here effectively over the

course of these last hours. usually, the courthouse, it shuts down at five pm on a normal business day. but judge mcburney said he would not shut it down until fani willis told them that their work was completed. we are now nearly four hours past five pm, and clearly that work is continuing. and we have been watching the front steps behind us, waiting to see if any jurors step out. so far, we haven't seen that action. of course, we have our own producer in the courtroom, and we are getting text messages from him, about any movements from the clerks office into that courtroom. >> well, vaughn, you are a solid journalist tracking all the possible source that would come up. i forgot the storm hit in atlanta tonight -- she did say i can smell the dishonesty on your breath, whether that applies to any of the defendants or witnesses, only time will tell. bye-bye, vaughn. [laughter] >> andrew, nicole, your thoughts on all the above? >> vaughn was covering the game

sterling moment where i think it really brought how dangerous trump's rhetoric was, i think to the national spotlight. and to learn that gabe sterling was witnessed five was in there for such a long period of time, i think i learned that after getting off the air -- maybe that was made public in the 7:00 hour. to think back to that moment, you know, there's so many reporters who have been bringing us that reporting from these date lines in the coup, and these declines in trump's demolition of democracy. and vaughn was one of them. he was recounting today in the 4:00 hour, that you are seeing those gabe sterling comments. and he said, someone's gonna get shot. and to think about all of the carnage and all of the wreckage and all of the damage. i mean, vaughn is at trump rallies now as he runs for president for the third time. in 2024. so there is something so solemn about this place at this state

and these witnesses. >> well, gabe sterling, it was so emotional that you had -- and this is something that might resonate for you. i am one of your people. i am a loyal republican. i didn't sign up for this. i didn't sign up for lying about an election. i didn't sign up for the violence that could ensue. and you could just sense the sort of dismay of what he was going through, and the idea that these were people that he had trusted and thought was going, and realize they did not have any limits. >> and now that we brought beyoncé in, and i can smell dishonesty in your breath -- there's a dating thing here. what people think is going to happen in 2015, 2016 when they threw in behind him and thought everything was all right? he ran this as a scoundrel and it ended this way. it shouldn't have been surprising to the likes of gabe sterling, and raffensperger --

but then they found their line in the postelection attempting to throw the results of a free and fair election, declared by chris scripts as the most secure election in american history, it was one of those dramatic things to watch. and vaughn was one of the reporters was on the ground when a lot of that unfolded. >> when you look at that, you see the arc of at least one possible case, is to charge this. either way that check jack smith did, using the local laws, local activities, which is a long running multi prolong conspiracy. >> what is the significance, though, of charging conduct up to 2021? i heard the reporting. what does that mean charging the defrauding in a longer time span? >> again, i want to be very careful -- we actually have a judge who may give us thoughts on this as well. the documents that leaked which may or may not be a predicate, right? and then, vans reporting that match this. we're gonna learn this together tonight. when you take that to september 21, those are later committed felonies and that also would potentially extend the length

of the conspiracy. and those -- sometimes people say, are they gonna get away with all of it, but why does it work like this. it may be that -- and i'm gonna bring in the judge. that these are at least potential alleged activities or crimes that aren't in the federal purview. you can make the case. once you have a conspiracy case, there's a lot you can do. but maybe if they were directed at only state officials in a very kind of 1 to 1, that yes it reaches to a different place. clearly, there was more. and this is the illegal turn -- there was more shady stuff in georgia -- that is something that rico -- [laughter] and then some states, that's why because they have friend that -- wait before i go to the judge, your thoughts on this, andrew? >> it's possible for the federal government to use the proof incurred from the state but not charge it separately, not charge it with many pieces

of crimes that are chargeable under state law. but to say yes, this was all part of throwing a federal election. that's still very much possible, particularly in these cases that have been investigated and pursued separately, which all in the indications are what happens. i just want to talk about the trial date, because a lot of people are saying, this is great. but when is the trial going to happen. and vaughn sort of alluded to this. but at the state level, there's a lot of things in georgia, that takes a long time. this is a long process. and to bear the case. we talked a lot about the streamline january 6th federal case. if it's one of these huge rico cases, it could take a very long time. jury selection, there's a jury selection that has taken over six months, just the jury selection. so this state case could be quite ways down the road. conversely, the federal case, because of these threats, the federal judge has indicated,

you continue to do these threats, i'm moving the trial date up, because i cannot risk having the integrity of my process -- >> flip that away. how long do you think this voting is going to take tonight? >> well, a grand jury, usually it only takes 12 to 23, and that's it can be fairly fast. but if there are multiple defendants, if there is a, you know, very, very lengthy charge, they have to read all of that. and then, they have to vote as to each defendant, as to each charge. so if you have ten defendants -- >> we were discussing this earlier. six unindicted coconspirators, that will be different if this was five, ten individuals. we just don't know right now. >> exactly. let's say you have 15 people. and you have 20 charges. they really have to focus on each one. however, if they have really listened to the evidence, they may be able to do that relatively quickly. but it does take an individual determination. you want that. so, that could take a little bit of time. >> yeah, as we continue to do

this reporting and waiting. i want to bring in as promised, 19 years including 13 years on the supreme court of california. welcome, good evening. >> thank you so much. glad to join. >> glad to have you. i'll just like to give you -- the nazi grand jury voting is underway. this big election interference or potentially election coup case in georgia regarding donald trump. first, your thoughts, tonight? >> so, let me give you a prediction. if the jury indites, donald trump will be arraigned. and the judge who arrange him will give him the same warnings that judge chutkan and the magistrate before her gave him about keeping his mouth shut and not doing anything that might intimidate witnesses or influence the jury pool. my prediction is that he would violate it as he's done with a judge chutkan. and why do i say that? we'll, if you think about what he's saying, he just continues

to talk nomad or what the consequences could be, meaning jail. and that brought up the word for me of -- its second issue in where a person has a constant need to talk. and oftentimes incoherently -- >> stay with me -- just stay with me, because you are still on air. but i want to tell viewers exactly what we've got. we have gotten a live feed from inside the courtroom. we can see that judge. you are seeing at home what we are seeing. this is what is called a pull feed. as you can tell, it currently has no sound. but it is quite newsworthy because for one thing, this is the first time it has been turned on as a pool feed today. what you are seeing primarily as some of the assorted credential press gathered in that portion of the room. we are keeping an eye on this because, a, the video being turned on is itself an indicator of the court process

and what may be coming in the minutes ahead. and we are looking at the clerk who we have, again, this is live. we have footage, no sound, but live footage of the clerk here inside the fulton county courtroom with the grand jury process. this is obviously a room adjacent to the clerk's office. and i'm just confirming -- we're getting this as we are rolling. we have no sound, is that correct? i'm just speaking to my control room. i just want to say, if we are provided with more information or sound, we will bring that as well. these are the two shots that we have. andrew, what you want to say? >> what we did see from that shot that the judge may have been on the bench, and the relevance of that is that my understanding of georgia practices, that the judge would not be on the bench unless he had been told that the grand jury had a return of an indictment. in other words, the judge does not wait around on the bench, it's the reverse.

>> and you are saying, what if it was a no vote bill? >> well, that doesn't need to get handed up -- >> you wouldn't see the judge at all? >> exactly. because the person is presumed innocent. you would articulate to the world that somebody who was under consideration for indictment -- so, it will just be very quiet. it's obviously possible that some people, the true avail, when they were not, in which case you will still see a split in the process -- >> and, andrew, what you are saying overlaps with what we reporting as the camera turns on, which is a decision by the court system to provide this live footage. normally, we would not expect that, for example, hours out from a newsworthy proceeding. we expect that to be reasonably soon. it is of course 8:50 pm in atlanta as well as on the east coast. we are following this from the newsroom. what we are seeing right now is a shot that is off the back of

the room. but before, we had eyes, as andrew was saying, on the judge. again, any viewers joining us, to catch up, we are looking at this footage live in this courtroom, where we expect to learn what this grand jury ultimately has done. because they have been holding a vote tonight. they have been a part of the last step of a longer investigative process led by d.a. willis out of atlanta, looking at possible charges, possible case for election relating crimes by either donald trump or others on his behalf. donald truagain, and abundance , with andrew mentioned -- oh, let's take this in full. they're showing us -- we've got the camera there, i believe back to the clerks office. again, you are with us, if you are watching, this is what you are getting. and i'm just curious there might be something to see here if that footage is available. this is the last step tonight in this long running process, where we could get charges against, of course, people in the public, for public interest,

whether that could include the former president or other individuals. judge, i didn't want to get all of that on the record here. and i have to reserve the right to interrupt again if we get anything. >> absolutely. >> please, say anything you want to say about this process, and finish the point you are sharing with us. >> first of all, i am very glad that this is transparent, that the public has a right to see what goes on, because transparency builds trust. it appears that there will be an indictment of sorts, and that indictment includes donald trump -- i'm just saying, i can tell you what's ahead. he's continue to populate orders that are from the judge and the magistrate to not talk about things that would intimidate a witness or maybe influence a jury. and so, when i was on the bench, i occasionally had to rein in lawyers and litigants when i felt that they were not adhering to the rules that i had set out. and it is just so important that a trial court judge, be it federal or state, has to

maintain control of that courtroom. and it's very hard, if i'm right, and donald trump for example, is indicted, and he once again starts talking, it is just classic this term, i think it's called -- and it's a constant need to talk sometimes incoherently. and most recently, he was very incoherent when he was talking in the iowa state fair. he was not making sense at all. so for a judge, the person in front of her has this -- condition because you can't control what you say, but you can control where you say it. and that's when it comes to his lawyers. they have got to be able to write him in. they likely will not. so i really predict that if he continues, and say he has this condition, is going to end up not only just in contempt, but he's going to be in jail. only just in>> well, that's quia statement. and you ran quite a bunch of cases. judge, stay with us. i want to bring nicole wallace

back in on the visual, the transparency of it, the transparency of it. you held a job when you had to address the public on behalf of the government there was a tradition to that. for viewers watching, and some are familiar with some of the other elements we have covered. donald trump has now been arrested in government custody three times this year alone. but for the other ones, you know, there's a funny thing, sometimes we give it too much weight. the federal custom is just that, supreme court, federal courts, it's very closed, not very transparent. we are accustomed to waiting on court statements. what we are seeing tonight, this is different -- here, we are watching the footage of, let's see live who's walking in. this is more transparent, nicole, and do we have katy as well -- does katie one to weigh in on this? >> can you hear me? >> katie, go ahead. just watching the walk through from the clerk, i believe. >> yes, so the return from the

grand jury, the indictment is being walked over to judge mcburney. he just announced it to members of the media. once that happens, the defendants will be announced. the charges will be announced. however, the indictment itself will not be read out loud. what i mean by that, you won't actually have -- if it's a speaking indictment from what we've heard, it will usually be anticipated in this instance, you won't actually be the indictment in its entirety being wet. however, we were made aware of who the defendant, or defendants, plural, will be. you're watching right now on your screen, that is a clerk who is receiving that. it has to be stamped and filed in into the court system, ari, and then it will be walked over to judge mcburney into his courtroom, at which point in time will be read as allowed by the judge. >> stay with us, katie. nicole and i were just discussing, we did not see any arraignment. this is a public process that

actually looks, if you watch, if you don't watch federal indictments, unusual. but not to show the public any parts of this -- exactly what's happening. >> and if you look at the recent history, the two democratic lawmakers who were expelled from the state of tennessee, i think the cameras chronicling that process had something to do with that reinstatement and bringing it back in. i think seeing things with our own eyes, it's only the bulwark against a tsunami of disinformation being strategically employed by the right. what trump has to his benefit is an operationalized disinformation mechanism that is unmatched in this country by any sort of agency or a, other than trumpism. so i think what he said in 2017, the first year as president, don't believe what you see, don't believe what you hear, only believe of what i tell you. he was afraid of days like today. >> and i think what we are watching, that footage. we have more -- this is a mounted pool camera

inside the courtroom. it swivels at time. the other footage was, we understand it would be the hallway and the adjacent clerks office. nicole, i think we are seeing the walking of those documents, which is signed by the clerk in this room, andrew. >> alex exactly. to the point of transparency, one thing to note is that in georgia's state courts, it's common to have cameras in the courtroom. and that is one of the reasons to keep your eye on the fact that when donald trump is indicted, as we all expect to see momentarily, that he is going to be moving to have the case taken federal, as he tried in manhattan -- >> new york, yes. >> if that happens and he succeeds, the federal rules will govern the trial. so one of the consequences of that issue whether it is state or federal, is cameras in the courtroom, because that's one where it would take the chief justice of the united states to

permit to have cameras in the courtroom. >> and, nicole, again, as we are watching this, and we have the feed off the back of the courtroom. we expect the process that we saw in the hallway to continue, to commence. so we are in it right now, but, nicole, when you think about the lies that offend the insurrection and the accountability. we have a civil process. fox news had to pay out a lot and they're still making that. we have a criminal process if people had been found under evidence. that is in contention of corruption, not just repeat or get confused, but really be a part of it. i am struck by the fact that there is a push and april that we are seeing amidst the breaking news. the lives, the lies, the reactions, even this process where the facts, the evidence is in that indictment, what we believe to be indictments and they're in the officer's hands. nicole? >> we should never forget that this is not the best mechanism for holding trump accountable. a healthy functioning republican party would have

taken of that for us, four years ago. he would not be in the top of the republican primary. that just failed. here we are relying again on the rule of law. >> we want to see if we can pick up any -- currently, just so our viewers understand, we did not have audio. we believe they've turned it on. let's listen in. it on let's listen in.

>> just making sure all the papers are in there -- >> the process when ash -- in front of the grand jury. you will maintain custody of it from her? >> yes, sir. >> this is for you. does the certification go with madame clerk? >> make way.