describes as exonerating evidence in frauder vote in 2020. the ballots in georgia were counted three times and the results were the same. he lost. >> the fulton county d.a. has set next friday as a deadline for which mr. trump and 18 others have to surrender and one by one, the others charged are coming forward. david schaffer released a statement insisting he is totally innocent. former trump attorney kenneth cheese breaux says the charges were unfounded and rudy giuliani said the real criminals are the people who brought this case. >> but georgia officials are talking today. the state's republican governor, brian kemp, hitting back pretty hard at trump by tweeting that the election was not stolen and no one has come forward in court to prove that it was.

the secretary of state, brad raffensperger, who got that notorious phone call from trump to find more votes, released a statement saying quote, the most basic principles of a strong democracy are accountability and respect for the constitution and rule of law. you either have it or you don't. >> nbc's blaine alexander is following all of the developments out of atlanta. laura jarrett is here along with andrew weissman, former fbi general counsel and former senior member of robert mueller's special counsel. also an msnbc legal analyst. blaine, i want to ask you about the judge in this case. what do we know about him? >> reporter: yeah. a couple of things, one, this came as a surprise to those of us who have been watching and following this case for quite some time because there has been a single judge who all along had been handling all of the developments from top to bottom.

he was the one who was on the bench last night when the indictment was unsealed. that judge is not going to be handling this case. so certainly that came as a surprise, but again, again, we know this judge is going to be overseeing a number of different aspects. one, what the terms of surrender look like. two, this judge is going to have the final say as to whether or not cameras are allowed in the courtroom. it's something we've been talking about a lot. but the judge ultimately has the final say and it's likely he will approve it if precedent is any indication. >> scott mccalfy is his name. he's been on the bench for six months, right? >> yes, yes. relatively new. >> we seem to have lost blayne. >> we'll have her back because she's the expert on it all. >> we can hear the rain coming

down. >> laura jarrett, let me ask you because he's only been on the bench six months. >> no question he'll have a fair amount on his plate. he's a former state prosecutor, someone with experience. cannon had a different position when she ruled in prior issues on the search warrants so that set her on a different path and made some question as to whether she was going to rule in the same way. >> inexperienced. >> relatively. certainly in a case of this scope with 19 defendants and racketeering, there's going to be questions. but again, she's tried cases before. no question about that. >> if i can go back to blayne, can you give us any insight as

to timing? >> reporter: well i think that's one of the things we're watching. apologies for the very heavy rainstorm that just blew in here and knocked out our shot. one, fani willis laid out what she said she hopes to see, which is six months before she ultimately brings this to trial. precedent has shown that's not the case. laura's been talking about it throughout the day as have i. when you talk about somebody with this many defendants. when you talk about a situation where there are so many people who are kind of lumped together, rico charges, it will likely take a long time to bring to trial. i think there are two examples that give us a strong indication. she's currently trying another high profile case here in fulton county against alleged gang members. they're still trying to seat the jury and those indictments were handed out about a year ago. then another case where she prosecuted a number of atlanta

school teachers in 2013, 2014. it took more than two years to get convictions there. so we're certainly talking about a very long timeline. guys, if i can go back to the judge. i was talking about him before my signal went out. i know laura gave you some background about him. he was appointed a few months ago by brian kemp. he's the republican governor in the state, of course, but he and former president trump have now some friction in their relationship. and we heard from the governor earlier today. posting on social media saying hey, the 2020 election was not stolen, pushing back directly on the former president's claims. i say that to add context. not to give any sort of indication as to which way or how the judge could rule in any aspects of this case, but just to kind of paint a broader picture in terms of the connectivity and just how he got on the bench and again, the governor who appointed him. >> one key early question will be about when this trial might

happen. so andrew, how much of that in georgia might depend on what we see from judge chutkan on august 28th? >> so, august 28th in the d.c. case is sort of the whole ball of wax. it is what is the date she is going to pick. and we are about to get on thursday the defense position. it's not going to be a surprise that their view is going to be after the election if not later. that's true for, i mean, most defendants don't want to go to trial. they want to put it off as far as possible. and we'll see jack smith's response. i think something that is a bit of a gift that was given to jack smith and frankly the judge if she's inclined to have a date that is prior to either the republican convention or the general election, is donald trump's continued attack on judges, on witnesses. let me just give you one quick example. he told a witness in a truth

social to not comply with a grand jury subpoena. that's a crime. and that was the kind of thing i was talking about it with joyce vance and other friends who were former prosecutors, that's shocking. >> shocking enough that action could be taken and you think might be taken? >> so it could come up in two ways. one in terms of bail conditions and sort of whether he's brought in and there's some restrictions put on him. but more to the point to your question on what's going to happen august 28th is judge chutkan, if you recall, said i have to protect the integrity of the judicial process in this case. if you continue to make these kinds of statements, i am going to factor that in in terms of speeding up the trial date because i need to get to this trial and have it protect the integrity of my process here and the jury here and the witnesses here. so to me, that is a gift jack smith is going to use and if judge chutkan is receptive, if

she wants to have it, she gets to cite that as a reason. that's going to be bulletproof on appeal. that she has such broad discretion in terms of when the set the trial date and if that conduct is continuing, donald trump, this is one where he may be shooting himself in the foot. where he's playing to his base but it's going to lead to what he doesn't want. more on truth, facts, law, still matter. he can hold a press conference to say what he you know, has continued to say that there was fraud in the election without fact, but this will actually be a trial where if he wants to present that evidence, it's going to be tested in court. >> blayne, to you standing out there in the middle of a rainstorm unfortunately after you've been all up day and another night, the months you've worked on this, you know fani willis so well. you've interviewed her. you have such good sources inside the courthouse. is she going to be willing to

defer and she said she won't, but willing to defer to the federal prosecution knowing there's a definite timeline because of the possibility that donald trump will become the nominee could get elected? could throw the whole federal case out whereas hers can stand as a state prosecution? will she to defer to jack smith on the calendar? >> reporter: i think what's interesting, her posture all along has been this process is her process. what happens outside doesn't impact this investigation. the timing of this investigation. during that news conference last night, she mentioned that that would be the case. she's going to keep moving on her timeline and laid out what she thought that would be. i think that's interesting it's been her posture all along. certainly, there are a lot of things that overlap between this case and jack smith's case when you talk about the set of facts. some of the people who were not named but were named here.

a number of different similarities. but i think when it comes to timing and how this bodes out, it's something she's going to keep moving on her own timeline. something she's been conscious of as we've seen with the heavily fortified courthouse behind us is security in all this and the resources in all this that are kind of being asked of fulton county, georgia, if you will. that's one of the reasons why she wanted, she put the county on notice essentially that it was going to happen within this time bracket and wanted to keep it within this time frame. so i think that's also something that's going to factor into her thinking as she moves forward and prepares to take this to trial. >> in talking about the evidence and what we knew and did not know before this, lisa ruben points this out. i'll read from her note. we saw on the docket sheet yesterday a charge against trump for soliciting a public official on december 7th, 2020. now we know who that official

was. former ga house speaker who has since passed away but testified to fani willis and recorded that call. unlike trump's infamous call to raffensperger or his call to francis watson, an investigator at raffensperger's office to which trump begs ralston to convene a special session. that call is less well-known as is the fact it's been recorded. you and i have spoken about trump on camera. in that video deposition for e. jean carroll. and the raffensperger call. donald trump's own words when he doesn't necessarily think people are listening or even when they are, proves to be his biggest flaw. >> to find the dem no one else pinpointed. this is interesting because i think for prosecutors, sometimes

these tapes prove to be invaluable. you think about the classified documents case where he's on tape bragging about allegedly a classified document he has in his presence that's not supposed to be shown outside of of a setting. also, of course the carroll tape. i think these are just catnip for prosecutors pause it's helpful for a jury to hear him in his own words. if you go back to the raffensperger tape, hearing him and his intonation is different. hearing how he's actually applying the pressure and not just saying go ahead and dig up some vote, but the context around those statements is really important and valuable for a jury to hear. >> one of the fascinating things is if this goes to trial as we think it will and they play those tapes, donald trump having to listen to himself andrew and wanting to respond and put it in some different context than the

prosecutor is will be something interesting to watch. >> one of the tools that a defense lawyer will not have here is the option of putting the client on the stand. and of course, that he could take the stand. there's nothing that prevents that legally. that will be the end of that case. there's, he really cannot take the stand. he did not take the stand when he was accused of rape. he did not come in and talk to us in the special counsel mueller case. he really has way too much baggage to put it in context and say that's not what i meant. that's not what i intended. so a jury in a criminal case will be told that you cannot consider this but they will have no other evidence to refute it. >> if this case is -- we have to go. if this is on trial and donald trump starts to watch the ratings, which he loves to watch the ratings. if the ratings are high, that might be a little catnip for donald trump himself. we'll see.

>> absolutely not. >> i don't think anyone's desperate for the ratings at their criminal trial. definitely me. >> this is reality television for sure. >> thank you very much. you are sticking around so don't go anywhere. >> coming up, protecting the ballot after questioning rudy giuliani's conspiracy theories. the georgia state senator faced a barrage of death threats. she joins us with her reaction to the now fourth indictment of donald trump. our special coverage continues here on msnbc. don't go anywhere. continues here on msnbc. don't go anywhere. it has been a long road, but now i'm working for schwab. i love to help people understand the world through their lens and invest accordingly. you can call us christmas eve at four o'clock in the morning. we're gonna always make sure that you have all of the financial tools and support to secure your financial future.

that means a lot for my community and for every community. ♪ age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv john eastman and rudy giuliani appeared virtually when they falsely told members of a

senate subcommittee that the election has been rieff with fraud, elena parent asked eastman the question that would soon become one focus of fani willis' sweeping indictment. >> so you're, correct me if i'm wrong here. your argument is that essentially, we have a failed election that would require the legislature to step in and assign electors. am i correct? >> yes. >> joining us now is democratic state senator, elena parent of georgia. she testified in june of last year, so i just want to get first your reaction to this indictment. >> well, in a democracy, no matter who you are or vote for, the people have the final say and no one is above the law. i think that's what we are seeing play out over these past weeks and months related to donald trump and his previous conduct after the 2020 election.

most recently, yesterday, here in fulton county, georgia. >> as a result of pushing back, you've faced threats. your family had to get extra police protection. similar threats have been addressed against fani willis. she had to write a letter to her team to put special security in. can you describe the stress that you and others unwillingly dragged into this case have endured in your personal life? >> well, it was a tremendous shock because although i'm a public figure, i'm a relatively obscure one, used to be able to speak my mind. i knew going into that day that we were dealing with extremely serious matters than even our most contentious bills but nothing could really prepare me for having my name and face splashed all over the internet

associated with all sorts of conspiracy theories. the most threats made against my children. that's the type of thing where as a mother, you start to think goodness. what have i gotten my family into? i was grateful for the state for stepping up to protect my family during the aftermath of the hearings with giuliani and eastman. >> we heard similar stories, testimony, from elected officials, state officials in arizona and pennsylvania and michigan and elsewhere. do you think that this entire experience in american history is going to have a chilling effect on people coming forward and cooperating? >> i think it could. i think there are elected officials who will say listen, i have run and put myself out there for office. i have taken an oath and i now need to fulfill that oath of office. i think that would be the more common reaction.

but there may be a large number of people who say being a public official in today's toxic political environment is simply not worth it. and then decide not to run in the first place. and that, too, would do a disservice to our democracy here in the united states. >> with everything else that happened, you testified for this grand jury. what was the message that you were hoping to get across to jurors? >> i testified, i want to be very clear. i testified before the special grand jury summer 2022. i did not testify just yesterday. to the grand jury. i just wanted to go in there and tell the truth about what i saw. what i experienced. i was making no judgment on what the law might be or what any other players or witnesses in this saga might have to offer. i could speak to what exactly went down in the georgia state

senate in the georgia capital during the lengthy hearings i sat through with giuliani, jenna ellis, eastman, when these doctored videos became slashed up conspiracy theories related to false theories of stolen goods in georgia ending many lives. election workers' lives. just wanted to tell the truth. >> there's been a lot of conversation about how this has become just sort of part of the every day life. you know, it's another headline. it's another indictment. i wonder if you sometimes rook look back on the hearing and it seems surreal. it couldn't have happened. i just wonder if you're able to step back an look at the big picture about what you've learned about the system. and about the price that some people including you, have to

pay. >> i would say that the entire episode is absolutely surreal. it is shocking but by that time, as shocked as i was, it wasn't completely surprising. because the warning signs had been coming for months. donald trump had been telegraphing during his campaign that he essentially intended to deny the mail in ballots and many higher members and usually the pandemic were false or fraudulent in some manner and to try to utilize that to try to claim he had been the true winner even if he wasn't. and that was on top of years of outrageous behavior and hyperbole and lies from the former president. by then, i was not surprised, unfortunately. >> i wonder if you see the change in the political atmosphere of georgia. i ask this question knowing there are a certain number of republicans that are never going

to change their mind about trump but there were enough in 2020 to make it that he lost the election there in georgia. have you seen a swing? do some of those voters now feel better about trump than he did? what's your read on the situation? >> i think people, when they aren't forced to think about the minutia of government and scandal, it may not be front and center for the vast majority of the electorate. i, however, have faith when it comes to an election again, if donald trump is as it seems to be he's the front-runner, the eventual republican nominee, that people will remember what those four years were like of him leading our country and georgians will say that is not the type of leader we want to have for our country and state. >> i know you might have to endure even more, if there's a

trial, you could be a key player. we want to thank you for everything you've been willing to do and to go through for all of this. georgia state senator, elena parent. thanks so much for being with us. and the georgia arraignments set to look a lot different from former president trump's other indictments. we'll talk to a former u.s. solicitor general about why he thinks it is so important for all of this to be on camera. televised. that's next. stay with us. amera. televised. that's next. stay with us

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trump posted quote, can you believe it, this failed district attorney fani willis, where murders surged to new record highs is charging me with 2020 presidential election interference. no, fani, the only interference was done by those who stole and rigged the election. those are the ones you should be going after. not the innocent people who are fighting for election integrity. exclamation point. joining us now, i'm taking a deep breath. neil katia and andrew weissman is with us. >> can we just comment on the looks on their faces? >> or on all of ours. we've just been talking off camera about judge chutkan's

warning, her protective order and her warning that she would accelerate the calendar arguably on the 28th of august if she sees these kinds of threats and filing of this in many ways including posting her picture online. neil, is that the biggest weapon she has is to set a very rapid calendar? >> so before getting to that, i just want to respond to donald trump's social media posting and you know, he's of course got, you know, he's got a right to say he didn't do it. that's fine. if he really believes what he said, i have a simple answer. prove it up in a court. you've got a jury trial. every advantage for you in this jury trial process. the government has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the highest standard in the law that you did it and they have to do it to all 12 jurors. if any one of the jurors said trump didn't do it, then he

can't be prosecuted and sentenced. he keeps saying he's innocent. if you're truly innocent, bring it on, have the trial and let's have all of america see what your defense is, this bluster that you just keep on tweeting about. now, with respect to you know, judge chutkan, she does have you know i think a variety of options available to her up to including the jailing of donald trump. i think before you do that and hold someone in contempt, you know, you want to bend over backwards as i suspect she will to not do that. but you know, if trump continues down the path that he's doing, i don't have any doubt that he's going to be called before judge chutkan at some point soon to explain himself and to be sternly warned you do this again and you know, that jail's going to be where you go. >> and andrew, he's already announced this monday appearance where he's going to have a refutable evidence of his

innocence. >> to be clear, if he wants to have a press conference where he talks about why he's innocent, that is allowed. there are certain rules in d.c. that he could be violating but that's generally within the first amendment. that's not the issue. but it is notable to me that that's the forum he's choosing. he did not do that. you played the clip earlier of pat cipollone saying essentially where are the facts. rudy giuliani had a bar disciplinary proceeding where they said where are the facts to show that you should not be disbarred for making these claims. it didn't appear there. it didn't appear in any of the over 60 cases in court. so it is notable to me that donald trump is trying to do this in a form where there's no cross-examination. there's no jury. it's going to be completely one sided. and to neil's point, as if this really is the case, make a forum where there actually is

accountability. there is actually a testing of what you have to say. >> neil, donald trump's team tried to get the manhattan d.a.'s case moved to federal court. it failed. could he get this one moved to federal court? >> he's certainly going to try but i think there's three problems with it. it's true there's a federal statute passed after the civil war that allowed some state cases to be moved to federal court and i have no doubt that trump is going to want that if for no other reason than federal courts generally don't have cameras absent from the judicial conference and i think trump is frankly scared of having this case before the american people for everyone to see. so i think he will do that. i think it will fail because of three things. one, that in order for there to be a moved trial, there has to be some federal function that the president was acting as, president trump was acting as president but here, counting the electoral college, the structure

of the constitution very much cuts the president out of that process for the best of reasons. of course, the president has a most interest in how the electoral college counts votes and so on so our founders wisely said hey, that's self dealing. you can't have a role here. that's unlike other parts of the role but not in the electoral college. second, it requires to move a case to federal court requires a federal defense and so far, trump's offered nothing that would come plausibly in it. and third, the supreme court has said that the standard to remove a case to federal court can't impose too great a burden on the states and here i think it undoubtedly won't. for the same reasons this maneuver was rejected in new york, i think it will be rejected here. >> andrew, you had some misgivings. >> we never disagree with neil.

he's a far greater appellate lawyer than i am. i do think it's important to note it is a strong argument in the manhattan case. in the manhattan case, it was laughable. there was nothing about it that related to what donald trump's position was as president. yes, he was signing some checks in the oval office but in a personal capacity. not as president of the united states. here, they will try to conjure up as many arguments as they can and you know, the concern is which court decides this and there is going to be a federal judge at the federal district level then a possible appellate argument. even possibly the supreme court. whether it's your main case or the defense you're raising.

>> quick question. if it goes to federal court and he succeeds, does that mean he could end the case? >> no. fani willis will still go with the case but the judge changes, the jury pool changes and neil correctly points out that a significant issue is that well, in georgia, there's a lively prospect this will be televised, which we think is great for the american public but that is not the case in federal court. >> well, let's talk about that. i mean, neil, the possibility exists that and in fact most people who are around the courtroom in georgia say it's a probability given precedent that it will be televised. what's your take on that, how it impacts the trial and what it means for the american people. >> so, yeah, before getting to that, i just wanted to respond to andrew. i think he's absolutely right that donald trump will say this is different than new york because new york was about

signing personal checks in the oval office and not acting as president. constitutionally speaking, when it comes to the electoral college, what trump was doing up to january 6th was no different than signing personal checks. the constitution cuts him entirely out of the electoral college for process for the best of reasons to avoid self-dealing. so that's why i think he will lose that argument ultimately. with respect to camera, my view is i don't care if this is in federal court or state court. these are the most historic and important trials the nation has certainly had in their lifetime, perhaps ever. and i think all americans should see it. we pay our tax dollars for these courts. these prosecutions are brought in our name. so i think there's an intrinsic reason in general and then here, there's a real important practical reason, which is that donald trump was a master of disinformation and if we're not

allowed to actually see what happens in the trial, he's just going to spin it outside the courtroom and prosecutors don't have the ability to respond because they can't really talk to the media the same way. we faced this in the george floyd murder which minnesota never televised a trial. but the judge there ordered the televising of the trial and i think that was a really important step for the legitimacy of that process and that prosecution. all americans saw that trial and could judge it for their own eyes. that's what should happen here. >> neil, andrew, thank you both so much. up next, conspiracy in coffee county. how voting machines in a small georgia county became a big part of trump's fulton county indictment. you're watching special coverage of the indictment of donald trump right here on msnbc. of the indictment of donald umtrp right here on msnbc. it's not just designed to look good... it's built to command attention.

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just one day after the attack, it involves the copying of election data in coffee county, which is nearly 200 miles away from atlanta. i want to bring in political reporter, greg. also with us, msnbc news national security analyst, frank. good to see you. it's one of these unique plots charged in this indictment. explain it for folks who don't know about it and what the significance is. >> this reenforces how sprawling this is. it's a deep red county that donald trump dominated in 2020. and yet the conspiracy theorists were so vast and far and wide that a team of trump backers and data analysts infiltrated the board of elections there and

they copied sensitive data. they were caught on surveillance video walking into the building then afterwards as they promoted conspiracy theories that spread throughout the county and states, word started getting out about this action and now, four of those defendants are facing criminal charges of infiltrating and tampering with election data. >> let me ask you a question i've been asked about this, given what you said about where it is, the fact it's deeply red. why there? why go there? >> yeah. it's a good question. we've seen lawsuits, there was a civil lawsuit withdrawn involving coffee county. there's a conspiracy theory that the machines there were tampered with and the outcome there should have been more pro trump. that was a period of time in georgia where a state elections official said it was basically whack a mole.

there were so many theories he couldn't bat them down fast nif. that was one of them. the machines were being tampered with. >> let's play a little bit of sterling's sound. his reaction to what happened at the time. >> obviously at this point, you never know what's going to happen. our biggest concern for years now, i've said this at conferences, professionals who run this country, is somebody will be motivated by this at some point and do something stupid. it's not going to be an organized thing. a bunch of conspirators. one who's going to be radicalized and that's my biggest concern. >> that was actually last weekend. he's talking about the security concerns around the courthouse and what might happen in georgia as this case progresses. frank, talk about the security concerns. talk about how you pull off a trial like this. >> yeah. what you're looking at a real

significant security threat and risk here that's going to be the cause of constant intelligence monitoring and collection across the board. county, state, and federal law enforcement all pitching in to assist fulton county. look, they're going to key off of the, the people who might be bad actors, are going to key off of trump and others that are already as we speak far right platform, people, calling for quote, civil war, unquote, because of the fulton county charges. so it's a stress test that law enforcement's going to go through. they've passed it in miami. in new york. they've passed it in d.c. and i'm confident that they'll pass the test in fulton county. i want to reflect real briefly on the cyber charges because as a former fed, the charges as described in the indictment could easily have been charged federally for cyber hacking and cyber manipulation. they've not been yet. which is interesting.

also, it's noteworthy when you're asking about the reasons why coffee county who not only have cooperative gop chair down there in the county. we not only have the head of elections cooperating with trump. but we have this thing greg mentioned, which is really bizarre. it was rather that he didn't win enough in that county so he's really stretching here. >> frank, something unique here is also something that fani willis referenced last week in a letter to her staff to work at home for instance and to be really careful and not to put anything on social media about the case, that there was an actual commercial which blayne alexander says was being played widely in the georgia area. it's a political commercial against fani willis and her team. you expect there's going to be a

protective order here in georgia as well? >> i would not be surprised if we see an attempt to protect the jury pool. think about trying to select a jury when georgians are going home at night and watching this commercial. now they've got it on their home screen. this could go up to the georgia state supreme court as to an attempt to kind of silence advertising. it might be inciting violence or prejudice a jury pool. security around the jurors and prosecutors is going to be a challenge. no question. >> gentlemen, thank you very much. a very busy week ahead for the former president. will he show up for the gop debate before a deadline to surrender in georgia? you're watching special coverage of the indictment of donald trump right here on msnbc. on m. versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein.

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a man, his family, and his tractor, penny. these are the upshaws. and this is their playground. there's a story in every piece of land, run with us on a john deere tractor and start telling yours. believe it or not, it is only tuesday. it's been a wild week so far. former president trump says he'll hold a news conference next monday about charges in georgia. two days after that is the first presidential primary debate, which donald trump might skip. and on friday next week the deadline and other defendants who surrender in georgia. while this week has been crazy so far, just wait for next week. joining me is former district attorney louise cummings and

back with us is analyst lisa reuben. i want to talk about donald trump's attorney, gwenn. we haven't gotten into what drew findling has said about donald trump in the past. >> he's somebody who i and my colleagues have handled cases with. i know his co-counsel, jennifer little, much better. you've seen a little bit of their legal strategy in some of the motions that they filed prior to the indictment, some would argue prematurely and they've revealed some of the strategies that they would deploy, certainly at this early stage. i think still regardless of how they feel about the indictment, we have to go through the process of having all defendants turn themselves in or risk having an arrest warrant issued. the next step would be

arraignments and then certainly we should start to see the flurry of various motions as the defendants and their lawyers execute their various strategies. >> i know we have a statement from them talking about how what was presented to the grand jury was one-sided and they believe some of the witnesses were politically biased against donald trump. >> so again, the way that the grand jury system is set up in georgia and i believe around the country is that it is one sided. the defense or defendants are not allowed in the room, but that's because it's a very low standard in order to move out of the indictment stage or move forward with an indictment, you only need to establish probable cause. so obviously prosecutors know ultimately they would be required to prove all charges and the elements thereof beyond a reasonable doubt but it is not unusual to have the grand jury process be one-sided.

that's the way it works. other possible defenses, i think many of us are waiting to see the extent to which there would be a motion to remove the case to federal court. it's my understanding the case would still proceed in state court while a federal judge decides whether there are any federal defenses that those that had federal positions, the former president as well as mark meadows, should able to use as part of their defense, whether it's immunity or other things. we've done some research on that through the bookings report and do not believe that those would be successful arguments but, again, that's a decision that would rest with a federal judge if at some point in time if those motions are filed. >> it's not unusual, lisa, for a high-profile case to play out in the court of public opinion, right? not every 15 minutes, though, like we see here and on local radio station wabc, rudy giuliani was being interviewed

and this is part of his defense. he just said, "i'm indicted for being his lawyer. i never thought i'd get indicted for being a lawyer." >> there is so much in this indictment that has nothing to do with rudy giuliani being a lawyer. making false statements about election workers who don't have the resources to defend themselves and doing it not once but multiple times, to engage in a pressure campaign on them to admit to crimes that they didn't commit. that has nothing to do with being someone's lawyer. so while that's good and well for the court of public opinion, good luck with that, mr. giuliani, in the real court here. >> gwen, i want to ask you about fani willis, who you know so well. she's been put in the national spotlight and endured threats and harassment, they're increasing with the spotlight. you know her so well.

describe how she'll deal with this and deal with the defendant, donald trump, if this persists i've said before the d.a. seems to be called for a time such as this. she is a very knowledgeable, very tough and experienced prosecutor, and however this may be wearing on her personally, you will not see that. she is focused, she recognizes the obligation and opportunity that serving as the elected district attorney presents in this moment, and she is not going to let the citizens and residents of fulton county down. she and her team are focused, but they are focused on the facts and the law and understanding what they need to do to be able to put this case together and present it to an ultimate jury at some point in the future. so, again, unfortunately many of us who had had high-profile cases have had to deal with attacks, certainly not anything to the level that she's dealing with, but sadly that has become

part of the job. and the best you can do is ensure your own safety, your family's safety, ensure the safety of your staff, your witnesses and those that are in the courthouse. and i think from the letters to the sheriff, we've seen her do exactly that. and the letter that show wrote to her staff, we've also seen her take the high road. she is not going to be distracted. she's not going to get in the dirt and fire back. she's focused, as well she should be, on the integrity of this case. >> let's look ahead to next week when donald trump is supposed to be appear. is he going to be booked, right? is that the term i should be using? >> processed. >> he's not going to be arraigned, though. that differs from what we've seen in the past. doesn't it? >> yeah, it does. he's not going to be arraigned at all. is that what you're saying? >> an earlier guest said he would be a little bit later. >> he will be arraigned a little

bit later. the surrender and arraignment are two different things. in the federal system we see them sort of happen together. it remains to be seen when he'll be arraigned. i'm sure we'll all be watching when he is. >> i hear from people, family and friends, people want to hear about lisa. >> we get to be going to law school essentially through all this. >> it's learning and i think we talk about it all the time. >> i just have to thank gwen fleming keys. >> oh, thank you, gwen. >> actual lawyers. >> to be with you is such a privilege but to cover some of the players here and i've been

struck with what gwen had to say about her friend fani willis. she went to howard, and emory university law school. and the allegation that she's a racist, the strong black women standing up to donald trump is something to behold. >> and standing up to say that i know there's a sameness that maybe some people feel, indictment, after indictment, after indictment, but she is showing in this indictment that many people came together in many places in many different ways to say your vote doesn't count and he is standing up and saying this is what we believe we can prove and it matters. >> and what we read in these indictments is overwhelming.

we should remember this is the prosecution's case, the defense will is a chance to respond. >> and not just in the court of public opinion. >> chris and andrea, thank you very much. that's going to do it for us this afternoon. i'm katy tur. on behalf of all my colleagues and everybody out there, thank you so much. msnbc's special coverage of donald trump's fourth indictment continues now with nicolle wallace. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. a lutheran pastor in illinois, former publicist for kanyea west, a whole bunch of attorneys and at the tippy top a former president of the united states, all of them involved in what is now described as a, quote, criminal enterprise, in service of nothing less than overturning america's democracy. that is how last night's extraordinary indictment of 19 people, including donald trump on a charge normal