good morning to you. it's not just possible, it's happening. it's sunday, december 17th. i'm ali velshi. we are less than a month away

from the start of the 2024 primary season which kicks off on january 15th with the first in the nation gop caucuses in iowa. january is going to be a busy month. in addition to iowa, new hampshire is also going to hold its primary. there are three republican debates currently scheduled to take place during that month. on top of all of that, donald trump's civil fraud trial in new york will come to a close just as e. jean carroll's second lawsuit against him gets going. trump's criminal trials are not going to begin until later in the year. according to politico, his campaign is already confronting the scheduling nightmare ahead of them as trump's legal obligations clash with his political ambitions. trump's team plans to front load his schedule in 2024 and get him out on the campaign trail frequently early in the year in anticipation that his numerous legal cases could disrupt their plans later on. it is a -- trump's criminal proceedings,

the first of a prosecution of an american president in history, involves complex legal questions at the justice-ism as never before had to consider. there is a possibility that trump's legal calendar could shift as these questions continue to be brought up. a prime example of this is playing out right now as the courts consider trump's argument that he is immune from prosecution for actions that he committed while president for which he was impeached by the house of representatives but not convicted by the senate. judge tanya chutkan is handling the federal election case in d.c.. she ruled against trump on that issue earlier this month, right in, quote, the court can't conclude that our constitution cloaks former presidents with absolute immunity for any federal crimes they committed while in office. trump quickly appeal to ruling which agreed to take it up on an expedited basis. because the court of appeals agreed to do so, shout can acknowledge that the court of appeals has jurisdiction over the case. that means that chutkan has to

pause for proceedings until the court of appeals hands down its proceedings on this one case involving immunity. all that means is that the pretrial motions of the deadlines for the case are irrelevant at the moment they will be re-once the issue of immunity is resolved but this is not a setback for the prosecution, nor does it mean that the trial will be delayed. chutkan herself left the door open to keeping the original march 4th trial date. at the same time, special prosecutor jack smith is trying to bypass the appeals process altogether in order to keep the case moving. he went straight to the supreme court. he asked the justices not to wait for the court of appeals to offer its opinion as would normally be the case. as smith wrote in his file, quote, the united states recognizes that this is an extraordinary request because this is an extraordinary case. it is an extraordinary request but it's not unprecedented. the supreme court has

previously made exceptions and moved swiftly to resolve issues like the contested presidential election in 2000. smith is asking the court to recognize the paramount importance of this issue and to resolve it as soon as possible because it could have implications for his case. it's a clever move on his part because it could prevent trump from causing further delays down the line. the justices have indicated that it could decide as soon as this week whether or not to take up the matter. they have ordered a trump's lawyers to submit their response to the court by this wednesday, december 20th. it could be a big week ahead which could have big implications for some of trump's criminal cases. joining me now is the democratic representative from the united states virgin islands, stacey plaskett, a member of the judiciary and intelligence committee. she is also served as an impeachment manager during the second impeachment of donald trump and, importantly, she worked for the department of justice. congresswoman plaskett, you know a lot about the various

aspects of this case. let's go right to the beginning, the idea that donald trump says he was tried by the house of representatives and then not convicted by the senate, which means he has already been through this. it would be double jeopardy to try him again. he maintains that he has immunity because he was the president about things he did while he was president. what is your take? >> talk about throwing everything against the wall and seeing if anything sticks. what he's throwing against the wall is, of course, nonsense. the house has a duty to impeach when there are high crimes and misdemeanors which the house did which is absolutely separate from what is happening to him in the judiciary. that's a separate system. he will be tried into that system. that's not double jeopardy. what happened in the house and the senate are not related to our judiciary marine. as for his being immune, having

immunity, that's something that only a president can give during the time that they are president. president joe biden who is the lawful president at this time has said that he is not, he being donald trump, he is not immune from being convicted for the crimes that he has had. the court will rule. we hope that the court will rule according to the law and that the trial will move on. i think that jack smith has been brilliant in bringing a lot of these matters forward so that we can get them out of the way and the trial can begin so that the american people can have some clearer understanding as to who the candidate is that they are going to be going to the ballot to determine who to vote for. >> i want to talk about some of the things that donald trump has said recently. he recently said he wants to be a dictator but just for a day. to run a rally last night in new hampshire, he repeatedly

referenced his close relationship with the some autocratic world leaders. listen to this. >> as anybody ever heard of vladimir putin? >> [crowd chanting] >> this is a quote, politically motivated persecution of his political rival. it shows the rottenest of the american political system which can't pretend to teach others about democracy. viktor orban, the highly respected prime minister of hungary, said trump is the man who can save the western world. he's like a rocketship sent by kim jong-un. he was very nice, i will tell you. we thought we were going to nuclear war. he had a very good relationship. that was nice. >> some weird stuff. of all the people in the world who you could use as references for yourself, he shows putin, orban, and kim jong-un. this is in addition to some of the racist things he had been

saying. he's been using the idea that immigration would poison the blood of our nation, which is remarkably similar to language that adolf hitler used to use. what do you make of all of this? >> i make that trump is telling us who he is. it's up to us as the american people to have the sense to accept what an individual says about themselves. as you said, during that saturday rally, trump also talked about, frighteningly, giving police of serves absolute immunity which puts a mark on the back of every person who has had fear of police. i think of my black sons. i think about all of the african americans, mexicans who the president has said he is going after. individuals don't look like him. that is something that we in this country, black and white, shouldn't stand for. this president is going to take

us back if he were to get back into office. trump is saying out loud what he thinks and we asked the american people need to put it on luke and remind ourselves that if he should be reelected, he's only going to do far worse than he did in his first job. >> because i have you here and because of your deep legal experience, i want to ask you about some of the legal matters facing the president. he and his team are intent on delaying his criminal cases as long as possible, which is odd because, generally speaking, in the criminal justice system, you have the constitutional right to a speedy trial and most people would like to have a speedy trial. the federal election interference case, the jack smith case, is paused for now. it could still proceed as planned on march 4th. a lot of experts i've talked to have said it will probably be delayed a little bit. how important is it to you that that case, meaning for our democracy, that that case or the georgia case, both of which

deal similar matters, happened before the election? >> i think they are all really important. we have not talked a lot about the classified materials case, the possession of reams of classified materials after he left office. we have such an unstable judge who is handling that matter. i think that that should be something the american people would look at as well. the matter that is in the state court as well as the federal case in washington, d.c. related to the ultimate and high crimes and misdemeanors of an individual, that being the attempted overthrow of the peaceful transfer of power, that's something that we should all be looking at. it should be right on the table for individuals as they go into the ballot box. while all of this is going on, we have a congress who the house republicans are locked in

step with this president and he -- we haven't passed any major legislation. all they have done is allowed trump to pull them out, allow the jackals to obstruct the work of our legislature, whether it be in a passing laws, removing individuals and their own speaker, or in this impeachment in search of a crime that they are now putting on president joe biden. >> congresswoman, good to see you as always. thank you for being with us. coming up, republican lawmakers are holding up a national security bill with aid for ukraine, israel, and other national security needs, demanding sweeping changes to the united states immigration system in exchange for their support. negotiators at the senate are working through the weekend. we will get to the latest from capitol hill. thousands of people gathered in israel's hostage square to demand the release of hostages held by hamas, saying that

netanyahu's government isn't doing enough to get them home. post roe america delivers another horrific series of headlines about a woman denied health care, but there are clues in the history of pre roe america which may help us to understand how to win back women's health care rights. that's coming up on this hour. that's coming up on this hour. that's coming up on this hour. in as little as 14 days. now i can help again. feel the difference with nervive. my daughter and i finally had that conversation. oh, no, not about that. about what comes next in life. for her. i may not be in perfect health, but i want to stay in my home, where my family visits often and where my memories are. i can do it with help from a prep cook, wardrobe assistant and stylist, someone to help me live right at home. life's good. when you have a plan. ♪ ♪ okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete,

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from a new year and the house already home for the holidays, but senate and white house negotiators have been working through the weekend, trying to hammer out a deal on a massive aid package for ukraine, israel, and other national security needs. republicans have been holding up the bill, republicans in the house, demanding significant changes to border security and immigration in exchange for their support. the gop wants major restrictions on of the standard for granting asylum to bring back wide scale of migrant

detention and limiting executive authority to grant migrants temporary admission into the united states. they haven't yet reached a deal. several senator said they were making progress yesterday and would return to negotiations today. joining me now is nbc news capitol hill correspondent julie tsirkin. good morning to you. thanks for being here for us this morning. you reported earlier that the congressional hispanic caucus met with the white house yesterday about these negotiations. what can you tell us about where they are? >> they are very frustrated, to put it mildly, using words that i can say on television. my sources who were in that meeting, it was virtual, it was held with the biden chief of staff as well as secretary mayorkas who was up on the hill yesterday. he's planning on being back here later today to meet with the senate negotiators. they basically went through the broad contours of what is happening, but they are willing to capitalize on with republicans and lawmakers have been very concerned about the proposals that they are considering.

they are closer to trump era policies and they would be, quote, unimaginably cruel. those three sticking points are still differences between republicans and democrats. those are still actively being considered, even in the last point you mentioned about expanding where migrants can be deported from trying to push that into the interior of the country. some lawmakers i spoke to said that that is a nightmare for migrants. they are going to have to carry paperwork all the time. they are going to be scared to move around freely. this is something the white house is pushing back on. they are still openly considering it. this violent took place yesterday. lawmakers were essentially told that they are about to get jammed when it comes to this bill. they are close to the finishing line on it. you brought up the foreign aid piece of this. it's really important. it's such a big priority for the senate. they want that crucial aid to get overseas, to get that done. to do it, they have to make significant compromises,

particularly with house republicans. speaker johnson has an indicated where they are willing to go on this. >> i want to check in with you because i know this is a dynamic situation. this is an important negotiation. we will stay on top of it. still ahead, the goals of the antiabortion movement are deeply unpopular into this country. you might be surprised how long that is actually the case. we are going to talk about how the antiabortion -- despite most americans supporting abortion rights and a clue from the history of the pre roe era which might help us understand how to fight against the injustices against the post roe reality of today. the pos roe reality of today cascade platinum plus. dare to dish differently.

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prime minister benjamin netanyahu's government is not prioritizing their safe return. israel's war cabinet maintains that constant military pressure is the best leverage they have to secure more hostages. on friday, the idf admitted to mistakenly killing these three israeli hostages, a 23 year old, 25-year-old, and 26-year-old. the three either fled their captors or were abandoned by them. idf officials say the hostages were waving a white cloth, white flag when soldiers misidentified them as a threat, raising questions about how the idf is prosecuting this war on the ground inside gaza. about 240 hostages, you will remember, were taken into gaza by hamas on october 7th during a temporary pause in fighting between november 22nd and november 30th. there were five hostage in person or exchanges between israel and hamas. the majority of them were women and children. 24 for nationals were also

freed. an estimated 20 israeli women and 114 men are still being held in gaza. while the families of the hostages are pleading for a deal, the u.s. has said both national security adviser jake sullivan and the defense secretary lloyd austin are discussing the next phase of the war. the pressure is real to lower the intensity of its military operations. the u.s. has yet to actually condition any aid to israel. this week did represent a market relationship between the two countries. the u.s. has maintained it is committed to seeking a two-state solution at the end of the conflict, but netanyahu has rejected any such notion, publicly breaking with president biden. u.s. and israeli officials told nbc news earlier this week that they fear that netanyahu, who is facing criminal prosecution unrelated to the war, is adopting some of these provisions to prolong his own political survival, not end the war. the situation in gaza remains

bleak. more than 18,700 people are dead as the idf continues ground operations in the north and bombing campaigns in the south. tensions are growing in the west bank. the palestinian health ministry says 297 people have been killed in the west bank since october 7th. joining me now is an independent journalist with two decades of experience covering this region and much of the world. she joins me from jerusalem. no good, good evening to you. there is a lot there. the first part is that the hostage families are getting increasingly more desperate. there seems to be some feeling on the part of the war cabinet and the government influenced by far right ministers and members. the hostages, getting the hostages back isn't actually netanyahu's priority right now. >> right. we have to say that netanyahu is a weak prime minister, very unpopular. every week, he seems to be less popular. he is trying to rescue his own

reputation. he is running what we can only really describe right now as a kind of schizophrenic government. on the one hand, he is presenting himself as the responsible adult in the room and absolutely committed to getting the hostages back. last night in a strange press conference, he made a theater out of showing that he was wearing dog tags representing the hostages or something like that. it has to be said that some of his tough supporters in the parliament, some of his top ministers, they are loudly and publicly demanding that the war go on and that the hostages can't be used, i put that in quotation marks, to stop the war. netanyahu himself opened today's cabinet meeting by reading out loud what he said was a letter from the families of fallen soldiers.

they demand that he pursue the war. he never identified who had sent him the letter. it seems to be part of a concerted effort to try to create a cleavage, a divide between families who have lost their children as soldiers in the war killed in action and families who still have loved ones held hostage in gaza. >> let's talk about hamas and its resources. a portfolio of investments that hamas has with buildings and properties and companies, it indicated that the netanyahu government may have known about this and it didn't take steps to stop it. what do you know about it? >> what i can tell you is that really the entire incredible investigation reported by the

new york times has just been confirmed on the israeli national broadcast. he was the mossad agent in charge of the hamas money trail. he told the incredible story right now of having personally informed prime minister netanyahu years ago and he included how it was being used to basically include a massive military and structural infrastructure in gaza. part of the infrastructure was also revealed today, by the way, this, massive massive tunnel in gaza. he explicitly said out loud that he recommended, he and his team recommended that this money trail be shut down. they will be strangled for their money.

the israeli government chose not to pursue that avenue. >> take that farther. why not? this is a question which has been sitting on the side for a long time. what might they have suspected was going to happen? why was the attention not paid to what was happening in gaza? they seemed very focused on stuff in the west bank to the expensive what was going on in gaza, it seems. >> that's right. what you described is a reflection of what he's basically the netanyahu doctrine. in other words, stirrup is really passions about the west bank, allow israelis to continue to believe that they can have basically an scrutinized and unsupervised settlement building in the west bank, the ruling authority in the west bank, the palestinian authority can be demonized. meanwhile, now i am quoting the

mossad agent, we can pay hamas for quiet. netanyahu believed and has said this publicly many times that he thought that by transferring billions of dollars to the gaza strip he would buy quiet from what he saw as hamas as a sovereign entity over the gaza strip. keep the palestinian people split between the authority in the west bank and hamas in the gaza strip. i have to say that mr. levies interview and it on this heartbreaking note. he said this entire thing could have been prevented. he repeatedly said we could have prevented it. we could have prevented it. what the new york times investigation shows is how far netanyahu's theory about how he could manage this so-called

status quo, how deep that went, even to the point of ignoring a detailed report presented by the mossad which laid out in detail what hamas was doing with the money. >> well. noga, thanks. amazing reporting on your part and analysis of the other reporting that we are seeing. noga tarnopolsky is an independent journalist with decades of experience covering this conflict. if you don't follow her on social media, i recommend you do. we are smarter for it. still ahead, post roe america serves up an array of horrifying headlines, stories of women denied access to lifesaving health care, we will look to pre roe america for clues about how to fight back against this new era, you're watching velshi. , you're watching velshi. watching velshi. no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪

ma, ma, ma— ( clears throat ) for fast sore throat relief, try vicks vapocool drops. with two times more menthol per drop, and powerful vicks vapors to vaporize sore throat pain. vicks vapocool drops. vaporize sore throat pain. on october 7th, hamas launched a barrage of attacks against israel, killing more than 1200 people, taking around

240 people hostage, marking the deadliest day for jews since the holocaust. that is an indisputable fact. following that attack, the israeli military retaliated with a bombing. that's another indisputable fact. we can't agree on much these days, but these two facts are undeniable. the question one addressing the conflict is, what happens in the months and years before october 7th? why are attentions in that reason what they are? that reason what they are there's a deep division over how to move forward. there is no moving forward if there is a misunderstanding of basic history. holman of, but i assume most of the american public knew at least one side of this long, complicated history. the american education system, let alone the israeli public education system, doesn't typically include the story of

a palestinian plight throughout history. i would have guessed that american schools do a good job about discussing the holocaust. sadly, it turns out that i am wrong. not even the meticulously planned annihilation of 6 million jews during world war ii is a matter of agreed upon fact for many americans. a 2020 study by the conference on jewish material claims against germany found an alarming number of millennials and gen z don't know basic knowledge about the holocaust. the survey covered adults aged 18 to 39. 48% of the millennials could not name a single one of the concentration camps or ghettos saddlestring world war ii. 56% were unable to identify the notorious auschwitz-birkenau. 63% don't know that 6 million jews were murdered during the holocaust. 36% thought that 2 million or fewer jews were killed. in one of the most disturbing

one of the revelations, 11% thought that jews caused the holocaust. 6 million jews apparently caused their own demise. this is a problem. to understand the conflict between the israelis and palestinians is to understand the histories of the people complaining over that piece of land. to understand jewish motivations requires, in part, understanding the basics of the holocaust. the creation of his of an israeli state had been in the works for decades before world war ii. the holocaust did not directly cause the creation of the state of israel but it moved it along. the murder of 6 million jews made the zionist movement at the time more determined and less patient to achieve its long held goal of jewish statehood. for many, juice and otherwise, the holocaust vindicated the need for a country in which shoes could feel safe after

western democracies fail to protect them from the naughty's. the holocaust is one of humanity's darkest historical moments. the middle east is one of our most complex contemporary issues. we cannot find solutions to our toughest problems if we don't work from a shared set of documented fact. if two generations of americans don't know that 6 million jews were murdered in the holocaust, where did we go from here? that survey uncovered another disturbing realization, a troubling sign of the times. 59% said they believe something like the holocaust could happen again. holocaust could happe again. again. - bye, bye cough. - later chest congestion. hello 12 hours of relief. 12 hours!!

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overlooked truth about the antiabortion movement in this country is that it is swimming against the time. it's pushing a worldview, a value system, it policy goal which is not only impossible in practical terms but deeply unpopular. let me read you a quote from an antiabortion leader who is basically admitting to that fact. i've come to the conclusion that the public doesn't want, the profession doesn't want, and the women do not want any aggressive campaign against the crime of abortion, and quote. that was doctor rudolph holmes, the chairman of the chicago medical society's criminal abortion committee, speaking about the difficulty of investigating anti abortion laws in the year in 1908. what was true then 115 years ago remains true today. women have always and will always need abortions. banning abortion does not end

abortion. it makes abortion less safe by pushing it outside of the law and into the shadows. despite the fact that no one wants aggressive campaigns against abortion, here we are 115 years later with aggressive campaigns against abortion with the texas attorney general personally intervening and one woman's medical care, threatening hospitals which might serve her and ensuring that she could not get the care that her doctor recommended inside the border of the state where she lives. despite the fact that abortion bans have always been cruel, and effective, and unpopular in america, they've been remarkably persistent in american policy making. that quote i read you, those remarks were printed in leslie reagan's history of illegal abortion first published in 1997. your book also offered what might be a hint at why the anti-abortion movement has been so successful despite its goals

being so unpopular. the secrecy and taboo with which abortion was so long regarded. regan writes, quote, abortion was widely practiced, openly discussed, and accepted by many people, but only within a small groups -- between couples, inside families, and among groups of female friends. in 1920, a medical commentator ask pretoria, did public opinion in the united states sanction abortion, and concluded that it did indeed. the united states, he argued, tolerates abortion done within the bounds of discreet secrecy. instead of acknowledging the prevalence of abortion the public overlooked it and treated it as an open secret, and quote. for more on this, i'm joined by the aforementioned leslie regan, professor of history, medicine, and gender and women's studies at the university of illinois. she's also the author of one abortion was a crime, women, abortion, and a lot in the united states. i'm joined by michelle goodwin, constitutional law and global

health policy at georgetown law. welcome to both of you. thank you for being with us. leslie, would you have predicted in 1997 when you published this history of illegal abortion that in another 25 years we would be living through another era of illegal abortion? >> well, i was unfortunately very afraid of that possibility and could see that as a possibility given the strength of the antiabortion movement and the new right. it has propelled the republican party into power. to talk to me about this idea of how we should speak about abortion. does it succeed more when it is

accepted that it is talked about in a narrow circles as opposed to the way we are talking about it now? it's a women's right to health care. >> i think it makes a huge difference that people are talking about it openly. look at what has happened. as the supreme court dismantled in the constitutional right to abortion, states passed laws strengthening access and expanding it. people are talking openly. they can tell the stories. they are politically organized in new ways, in ways that they were not organized before. there was no women's movement or medical movement which supported opened legal access to abortion. it makes a huge difference that people are talking. that is part of the goal of the forced birther's campaign, to make people afraid to talk about their own abortions,

their own histories. about their own abortions, i actually think almost all of us use abortion weather we've had one or not because we know that it is there as a potential backup if the contraceptive doesn't work or sexual assault or because of the viability of a pregnancy. people already use it all the time whether they have had to actually go have the medical procedure. >> some of us who are not likely to use it, myself included, are starting to understand this as a right. we are starting to understand that if you don't have that right, if michelle and leslie don't have this right, there is something i have that you don't have. a recent wall street journal poll found that support for abortion access in america is at its highest level. 55% of people support abortion access for any reason. 90% supported in the case of rape, incest, or to protect the health of the mother. if you ask the question a

different way, if you ask the question about the criminalization of abortion, support is almost universal for not criminalizing women. you can like abortion or not like abortion, that's not a relevant question. the question is whether you support the law doing something to women who make a decision with their own doctors. there is minimal support for that in america. >> that's right. abortion, being able to terminate your pregnancy is fundamental to women and girls survival. in roe v. wade, what you discover is that abortions had been performed for millennia. that makes sense for a number of reasons. stillbirths, miscarriages half happened for millennia. abortion becomes criminalized at a time teamed up to the civil war. it becomes a tool being used by those who are at the rise of gynecology and obstetrics.

they are men who want to get women out of reproductive health care. women are midwives. it should not be strange to any of us to think about the fact that for millennia women or taking care of other women's reproductive health needs. that makes sense. there weren't man with a white lab coats and stethoscopes roaming around the planes of africa and asia and whatnot thousands of years ago. when we are handling women's reproductive health care, men quite literally pushed women out of that. the american medical association became a tool to help them do that, and organization banning women from their membership. they did not support women becoming members -- they didn't support people of color becoming members of the medical profession. this history of how abortion became a crime is really important, including the racist notions behind it, this concern about the potential -- if and when africans would be

free from the bondage of slavery. that is an important part of the legacy of abortion becoming criminalized in the united states. this is a powerful movement. we go from 100% of women's reproductive health care being controlled by women, which makes sense, to about 1%. >> we're going to try to figure out how to get back to that 100%. stay with me, both of you. we're going to take a quick break. i'm going to take a throw lozenge and then we're going to come back and talk more about abortion. you're watching velshi. abortion you're watching velshi you're watching velshi the largest floating civilian hospital in the world. bringing free surgeries to people who have no other hope. $19 a month will help provide urgently needed surgery for so many still suffering. so don't wait, call the number on your screen. >> i am back with leslie or donate at mercyships.org.

reading, professor of history, medicine, gender and, when instead at the university of illinois, and michelle goodwin, professor of constitutional law in guelph policy at georgetown law. i have my throat lozenge, got my water. if that happens again, just talk amongst yourselves. let's talk about something that is well chronicled in your book about pre roe criminal abortion. even back then, there are so-called reasons for abortion. there are circumstances where people in charge of deciding whether a woman can get an abortion, mainly men as michelle points out, can really agree that she should lee be allowed to have one. that judgment came down to whether the woman was considered a good girl from a good family. this highlights the entire problem of trying to legislate good, worthy versus bad, unworthy reasons for having an abortion. >> yes. the first laws that were passed

to criminalize abortion in the 18 50s, 60s, 70s all allow doctors to provide an abortion for medical reasons, justifiable medical reasons, bona fide medical reasons in illinois. that was undefined. that was up to doctors themselves to figure out what that meant. well into the 20th century, most medical care was in people 's private homes. it wasn't in a hospital. it wasn't observable. a doctor alone could decide this. plenty of doctors did for what we might consider to be a very medical reasons of excessive vomiting, that it threatens their life, but also for social reasons, for economic reasons. they understood their own patients about whether they needed to end pregnancies. it became much harder to achieve this when the size of the profession shrunk and there

were not as many alternatives for midwives. there was not as much competition among doctors. it was very hard because doctors and committees and hospital administrators observed each other. they started putting in -- yeah, good girls from the family that the doctor knows could get that much more easily as it was by the 50s and 60s. middle class white woman with private health insurance could get abortions which were actually visible and counted in hospitals. plenty of other people got abortions, some a very safe by good practitioners, others landing in hospital emergency rooms, many of them dying. that whole situation also led to the decriminalization because doctors themselves or

holding the hands of people dying. they knew it didn't have to be like that. doctor's became a really important part of a decriminalizing abortion. it became public. the incredible difference between women of color and white women in terms of access, in terms of safety, that was also a huge part of why people began object into these laws and insisting that it had to change for reasons of public health and equity. >> there is the question of who qualifies for an abortion and then the question of who decides who qualifies and who decides who gets an abortion, who decides whether an abortion is medically needed, whether a woman should be allowed to have one. it's possible for -- is even possible for there to be a fair and unjust system other than a woman and her doctor? i think you pointed this out to me, michelle. what -- there is no third-party. there is no one else involved.

>> it should really just be a woman. let's face it, the party still has the legacy of a kind of paternalism that women don't have the capacity to make decisions about their own health care because abortion is health care. we have talked about this before. the supreme court has acknowledged as recently as 2016 in the united states a woman's 14 times more likely to die by carrying a pregnancy to term that by having an abortion. somehow, we think that women are just not smart enough, don't have the sophistication, don't have the moral capacity to make these decisions regarding their health care. these are important health care decisions. it's important that we not lose sight of that. to the point that leslie was making, there have been many inequities across health care generally and in reproductive health care. we see that in the united states with black women generally being nearly four times more likely to die by carrying a pregnancy to term in

the united states than their white counterparts. that is a national figure. that doubles, triples, even quadruples depending upon what city, what township she lives in. the disparities in health care and the harms in health care are still racialized and always straddle socioeconomic status are important that we talk about and that we never lose sight of that. >> thank you to both of you. i appreciate this. leslie reagan is the university of illinois professor of histy, medicine, gender, and women studies and author of what abortion was a crime and dangerous pregnancies. michelle goodwin is a georgetown law professor and constitutional law and global health policy and author of policing the womb. still ahead, less than one month until the 2024 primary season officially kicks off and the republican party's front runner schedule is jammed with court dates. how donald trump's team plans to deal with candidates and with legal conflicts. plus, white house and senate negotiators are working through the weekend to try to hammer out a deal to pass a massive national security package which includes military aid to