the counts against him. if the hush money payment case goes to trial on march 25th, donald trump here in the heart of the summer could very well be found to be a convicted felon, and you're looking at 34 felony counts that are up against him, and not to diminish the civil trials that have been leveed against him, this would be the first of a criminal trial against him and it has not been seen how voters would react to having a convicted felon as a general election nominee, and the potential ramifications are not known at this point, and in no situation does donald trump want to have convicted felon next to his name while running for president. >> vaughn hillyard, thank you. that is going to do it for us this hour. join us for "chris jansing reports" 1:00 to 3:00 eastern on msnbc. our coverage continues now with

katy tur. good to be with you, i'm katy tur. vanishing trial dates and an admitted affair, lots of news on the array of criminal and civil cases against donald trump, developments that tell us what the next nine months are going to be like. in d.c., jack smith's election interference trial has disappeared from the federal court calendar. what does that mean? in new york, allen weisselberg is back in talks with prosecutors, according to "the new york times." this time over a perjury plea deal. and georgia d.a. fani willis admitted to a quote personal relationship, what does her private life mean for the rico case against donald trump and his codefendants, joining us with the answers is justice and intelligence correspondent, ken dilanian, "new york times" investigative reporter, suzanne craig, her 2016 reporting focused on donald trump's taxes and earned her a pulitzer prize.

also with us, nbc news investigations correspondent, tom winter, and msnbc legal analyst, lisa rubin. everybody welcome. ken, what happened to the trial? why is it not on the schedule any longer in d.c.? >> it's bowing to the reality that this case has been on hold while we wait for the d.c. appeals court to rule on whether mr. trump is subject to any level of presidential immunity against the charges in this case. since it's widely assumed the appeals court will rule against the former president on the score, the next stop would be the supreme court and that's a process that could take several months. the march 4th date is no longer possible and they're now acknowledging that. the first of trump's four criminal trials may be held this spring in manhattan on the new york state charges of business fraud in connection with hush money payments during the 2016 election. that trial was set for march 25th, but the judge had made clear he would defer to the federal election case, which is

not happening anymore right now. he's scheduled a hearing on february 15th. of course the other major federal case, the one in florida involving classified documents and obstruction of justice is theoretically scheduled in may. nobody thinks that's going to happen. the judge has resisted every attempt by special counsel jack smith to speed the case along, and you have the atlanta racketeering case which has been expected to take the longest to get to trial because of the large number of defendants. that is the array of things that are happening right now. >> let me ask you about the appeals court, which is considering donald trump's immunity. they have been considering it now for many weeks. do we have any indication on timing, any past examples that we can point to to say this is how long it should take? >> well, the only thing we can look to, we're right about the period of time that it took them to get the ruling on the gag

order, remember the trump gag order that was appealed to that court. it took about this long. really, we expect it any day now. this is a more significant, more weighty legal issue than that one, which was cut and dry. it stands to reason, and these judges know that every word of their opinions are going to be scrutinized. we're not in any kind of eyebrow raising territory in terms of the length of time they are taking. >> tom, let's talk about allen weisselberg and the new york city fraud case. why would he be coming to -- why is he involved in this? what's going on with him perjuring himself? >> this is its own separate matter. pleaded guilty, in connection with a tax scheme involving the trump organization. he testified at the trump organization trial. we know all of that. this stems from the civil trial involving donald trump that was brought by new york's attorney general in testimony that weisselberg gave at that trial,

which some have flagged as potentially not accurate or potentially actually lying on the witness stand, and it's that particular issue that has led to the "new york times" reporting with the manhattan district attorney's office declining to comment. basically what they're focusing on here is are the statements, and whether or not allen weisselberg will plead guilty to lying in front of the judge, which was the jury in that particular case. the question is whether or not allen weisselberg could testify against the former president, something he steadfastly refused to do. he probably would not have gone to jail had he decided to cooperate. i have no indication that allen weisselberg is considering cooperating in the ongoing investigation or the upcoming trial of donald trump which a lot of people thought was going to be the trial that got pushed back, and in fact now may be the trial we have first. folks say a four to five week

trial. i don't see that. we know a lot of the fact pattern. it's not clear that allen weisselberg's testimony would be helpful or relevant or admissible in that particular case because it centers on the hush money payments which involves the "national enquirer," donald trump and michael cohen, and those are the key players in the case. >> does it send a signal to do a plea deal on perjury? >> 100%, and i wonder if that's what alvin bragg is thinking here. you lie in our courts, we're going to pull the leash on you. if folks have an idea they want to lie on future cases involving the president, including the upcoming civil trial, there might be ramifications for that. i think that's something certainly that could be a consideration for the d.a.'s office. >> part of this, the way this case is described, is donald trump paying off a porn star. alvin bragg is saying this is more than just paying somebody off. this is paying somebody off at a critical time. because he did so in the lead up

to the 2016 election, that this is election interference. can you help walk me through that? >> social security cinematic the way you say it knowing in the final days of the election campaign in 2006 he allegedly made a payment to stormy daniels, a porn star for her silence, and that is sort of where it's kind of the crux of it. it can go from anywhere from a misdemeanor to a fraud charge depending if you can link another crime to it. you've hit the heart of it, it could come out in a misdemeanor or either go from probation to doing actual time for it, depending on where the jury lands on it. >> why would it be considered election interference to ask somebody not to talk about an alleged relationship. >> i think largely because of the timing of it. it happened right before the election, and it was done with the intent, you know, allegedly, to sway the election. so i think that's where it comes

down. >> all right. lisa, let's talk about the other case, the fulton county case, and this is d.a. fani willis, who has admitted to a personal relationship, which is being very specific in her language. why would her personal relationship with one of her special prosecutors potential imperil the entire case, the entire rico case against donald trump, and all of his codefendants for trying to overturn or meddle in the georgia election in 2020. >> let's start with why would that happen, and i'll explain why you think it shouldn't. there's case law in georgia that says where the district attorney has a conflict of interest, it's not acceptable just to recuse that person but the entire office has to be removed from the prosecution because their authority is entirely derivative of his or her authority. now, do i think fani willis has a conflict of interest here that reaches to that level? i don't, katy. i think the optics here are absolutely terrible. for example, nathan wade was appointed within a day of his

divorce filing, but according to this, fani willis is saying, there was a personal relationship between me and mr. wade. it did not start until well after he was appointed. and all of the other factors that they point to, including the manner in which he was compensated, the amount he was compensated and even the manner and timing of his appointment, none of those are legally awry. >> he was saying it wasn't an affair while he was married, not that that is exactly matters relevant to this case, but that it's also not the reason that she hired him. he didn't get this job because she was in a relationship with him. >> no, and in fact, there are copious exhibits accompanying this brief, and included among them are numerous awards that nathan wade has won for his advocacy as a lawyer, and his service as a municipal court judge. >> does he have experience in this particular kind of prosecution? >> they don't point to if he does. fani willis has two other

prosecutors who have that experience. she says she appointed him because she trusted him rs he was an experienced former prosecutor who had defense side experience and had been a judge. she trusted him as the quarterback of her legal team, not the person most responsible or in charge of rico knowledge. >> what about the allegation and the money that he was making was used to go on vacations that he paid for with her. even if their relationship started after she hired him, does that pose a potential problem? >> i don't think so particularly given the facts that she's alleging her. again, on their motion, mike romans lawyers said he paid for all of these things. she said, wait a second, we divided responses for personal travel evenly between some of us. here we're going to attach bills i paid when we went places together. neither one of us is dependent the other. the hourly rate was commensurate with what special prosecutors made, and the totality was

reasonable given he quarterbacked the entire prosecution from the sometime i started it from 2022 forward. >> let me ask you about judge engoron. this is from the case surrounding, now i'm blanking, the engoron case, about the financial fraud. thank you, gosh, there's so many cases. he's deciding whether or not to stop donald trump from doing business, now i'm getting it, in new york, the trump organization, and he's considering whether to also levee a $370 million fine, which is what the d.a. or the a.g. in new york wants. do we know when he's going to come to his decision? he said by the end of the month, and it's now february 2nd. it's the beginning of a new month. >> right. he put a self-imposed deadline on himself at the end of the trial saying he would like to have it done by january 31st. obviously didn't make that. the court put out guidance, i'm

sure they're being inundated with calls, saying early to mid february. i would imagine it comes in, we really don't know, but towards the end of next week or the week after. i don't think we're looking months out but a week or two potentially. >> can i ask you about finances? there are estimations about how much donald trump has on hand in terms of cash. he's going to have to pay after the appeal, i assume, he's going to have to pay e. jean carroll $83 million. that's on top of the 5 million he already has to pay her. 370 million from this case. does he have the cash on hand if judge engoron were to decide that was an appropriate number? >> first, it's important to know that he has to put up money to appeal. we don't know from any given day how much donald trump has cash on hand. we could know one day and that could change the next day. i would estimate from what we've seen, based on recent asset

sales and numbers that have come out in the attorney general's case, enough for the e. jean carroll says. the 375, we could never know, it's a stretch given what we have seen. he may be looking at asset sales in order to even try and appeal that, just to get enough put down. >> on the asset sale point, we're in an environment where commercial real estate in new york is certainly a challenge. that market is under pressure. interest rates continue to rise or hold there. you're resetting rots at entirely different valuations, which could potentially be a challenge when you look at asset sales and the fact that a number of buildings are not what we would call class a or top of the market. >> i was going to say, that's a great point, and the other thing is if he's going to be selling in the environment where he has to raise case, i think they call that a fire sale.

>> suzanne craig, ken dilanian, tom winter, and everyone, thank you for joining us. still ahead, he changed the whole primary schedule to thank black voters in south carolina, but what are they telling him now? the changing sentiment about president biden ahead of tomorrow's first democratic primary. a blowout jobs report show the economy is strong. when will more people feel it? first, though what jennifer crumbley said about the last time she saw her son shoot the gun he then used to shoot four classmates. she's been cross examined today. we are back in 60 seconds. ack i. i know, i've bee telling everyone. baby: liberty. oh! baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪ you can't leave without cuddles. but, you also can't leave covered in hair. with bounce pet,

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>> correct. >> you're the last adult to have possession of the gun? >> correct. >> you were with him at the range on november 27th. >> correct. >> you saw your son shoot the weapon? >> correct. >> you saw him shoot the last practice round before the shooting on november 30th? >> at the range? >> yes. correct. >> you saw how he stood? >> honestly, that didn't mean anything to me at that time until this whole case came about and i've learned what a shooter stance is. >> jennifer crumbley, the first parent of a mass shooter to ever be put on trial in the united states said during cross-examination, she didn't know the warning signs and what they were. she could have never foreseen he would shoot and kill four classmates with a nine millimeter, semiautomatic pistol at oxford high school. joining us now is correspondent adrienne broaddus. i know closing arguments are underway. what's being said? >> reporter: right now, katy,

the defense attorney, shannon smith is delivering her closing argument, and she started by saying this case is a dangerous one for parents out there. in a nutshell, she is making the case that any parent, really trying to appeal to those members of the jury, any parent could be jennifer crumbley saying she had no idea. it wasn't foreseeable what her son was going to do. she's also laying out the case and pointing out that any parent like jennifer crumbley could look bad if their text messages were presented as evidence and taken out of context. now, earlier, for nearly an hour, the prosecution made its case, really starting out by saying that she knows, i'm talking about the prosecuting attorney, karen mcdowell, saying she knows the stakes are high. i want to go back to earlier in the day on cross-examination, that's when the assistant prosecutor really narrowed in on jennifer crumbley's testimony

from yesterday saying that she wasn't responsible for that gun the shooter used and it was her husband's responsibility, but he pointed out that jennifer crumbley didn't really trust her husband. listen in. >> do you agree with me that owning a firearm involves a great deal of responsibility and trust? >> i do. >> okay. >> and you entrusted this responsibility to your husband, james? >> i did. >> it's pretty clear you didn't trust james with much, would you agree or disagree? >> depends on what you're talking about. >> you didn't trust him to get out of bed on time. >> correct. >> you didn't trust him to tell you about his whereabouts. >> there's a reason behind that. >> you didn't trust him to turn on the ring camera to your home? >> correct. >> you didn't trust him to keep track of your son. >> i trusted him to keep track of my son. >> in those messages, you are constantly asking him about work, how much money he's

making, and what he's doing to obtain employment. >> correct. >> okay. but this is person you entrusted with a deadly weapon? >> i did. >> reporter: and the prosecution making the case there, pointing to that gross negligence. meanwhile, they're saying jennifer crumbley knew there was a danger, and they're also pointing out that the gun was a gift to ethan crumbley by his parents saying jennifer crumbley showed her son how to shoot that weapon and also bragged about it on social media, katy. and, you know, it's still continuing. i'm looking at the screen right now. you still see defense attorney shannon smith delivering her closing statements. this is her last chance to appeal to members of the jury. >> let me just underscore this is a ground breaking trial. if jennifer crumbley or her husband are held accountable for what their son, ethan crumbley did, it could very much change

the way that parents operate in this country and change who is responsible when a child goes into a school and hurts other people with a gun, especially. adrienne, thank you very much. coming up what some black men in south carolina are telling us about why they might not choose president biden. first, though, could a strengthening which i change their minds? we got another block buster jobs report. like pulsing, electric s and last for weeks. a pain so intense, you could miss out on family time. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. 50 years or older? ask your doctor about shingles. (ella) fashion moves fast. 50 years or older? setting trends is our business. we need to scale with customer demand... in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon. their solution for us? a private 5g network. (ella) we now get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. our customers get what they want,

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the first 2024 jobs report crushed expectations. 353,000 jobs were added in january. wages are up too. and the unemployment rate helps steady below 4%, where it's been now for two years. joining us, nbc news senior business correspondent, christine romans. it's just been a flood of good news. >> i know. and it's been sustained. one after another. i mean, it's been a year that the experts have been warning about a slow down and ceos have been bracing for it, and it just hasn't come. when you look at these numbers, a very strong jobs engine into 2024, and in december, those jobs were revised higher as well. you have a two-month job gain of more than 600, almost 700,000 jobs. >> how do you explain this? >> it was revving on almost all cylinders, big hiring in health care, big hiring in offices, big hiring in retail. it was broad based, that's what you want to see. we have been hearing about tech

layoffs and other layoffs, in tech in particular, it's so interesting, there was such overhiring in 2021, those people are moving on to different industries, even and that's good for the economy too. they're landing jobs in other place where expertise and technical skills in other industries. you're starting to see the virtuous cycle. people are employed, they're spending more money, and that's making more business. you can see it's a real kind of engine here. >> consumers are spending a ton. those numbers have continued to go up, despite the expectation that it would start dropping and despite the idea that they needed to start spending less in order for the inflation number to come down. >> it's a riddle. these wage numbers, 4 1/2% rage growth, that means the paycheck is growing faster than the grocery bill. at some point people will feel that. that sustains that consumer spending and that cycle continues here. so the consumer is the big driver in the economy. the consumer is paid more,

spending more. >> the grocery bill is still annoying. >> i know. it really is, that's something that the white house is keenly aware of. when you can look at the share of the grocery bill, and the share in the consumer psyche is this much. the grocery bill, that hurts. what they are really trying to point out is that over time, price levels will start to settle. >> they'll become more normalized. >> and you might see sentiment indicators pick up, and in fact the last two month indicators have picked up and people in the polls say they feel a little bit about the inflation story. also because gas prices are below $3 a gallon. >> is something going to change with the unrest in the red sea and the shipping. are we about to hit another logistical log jam? >> it's something to watch. a bigger issue for europe in terms of logistics if there were an increase in gas prices, oil prices that would be a problem. certainly something to watch. it hasn't has a big material impact on the inflation story

yet. >> christine romans, thank you so much. and chuck schumer says the senate is close to a vote on the border deal, what is in that bill, and right after the break we're going to the ground in south carolina, a state that catapulted president biden into the white house. are black voters voting for joe biden in the numbers that are needed? >> is anyone excited for the election? >> no. yone excited for the election >> no. own for cancer, but a treatment can be. keytruda is known to treat cancer, fda-approved for 16 types of cancer. one of those cancers is advanced nonsquamous, non-small cell lung cancer, where keytruda is approved to be used with certain chemotherapies as your first treatment if you do not have an abnormal "egfr" or "alk" gene. keytruda can cause your immune system to attack healthy parts of your body during or after treatment. this may be severe and lead to death.

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black voters in south carolina are such a big deal to president biden that he up ended decades of procedure and scheduling, pissing off a whole state in the process, to make them, south carolina, the first democrats in the nation to choose who they want to be their presidential nominee. should have had a bigger say, the president was saying to them. you matter. but the narrative is that a lot of those same democratic voters in south carolina are shrugging their shoulders when it comes to president biden saying that he hasn't followed through on his promises. that he hasn't made their lives better. hasn't made them feel like they matter. is that just a lot of voters or a handful of voters complaining or is it a broad swath? we're going to get our first concrete clues on enthusiasm tomorrow when democrats in south carolina primary, cold hard numbers that will tell us heaps about where this election is going. and whether the months of solid economic growth as we just pointed to, including job creation and wage gains,

decreasing inflation and an increasing stock market are affecting the people that matter. the voters. joining us now, nbc news national political correspondent steve kornacki. give me the cold hard number predictions about what's going to happen tomorrow? >> well, it's anybody's guess because there's been no polling in south carolina, but obviously the expectation is this will be a big win for joe biden and the question is how much. remember, south carolina, the reason biden wants this state to go first is it's the stays that rescued him in 2020. he did nothing in iowa, nothing in new hampshire, almost nothing in nevada, looked like he was about to exit the race. it all turned around for biden in south carolina in 2020, and within south carolina, the biggest single reason it turned around for him, you were mentioning it, the black vote. look at this, joe biden, 61% of the black vote he got in the state four years ago. the majority of the electorate, democratic electorate tends to be african-american in south carolina.

that's become the modern rule of the south carolina democratic primary. you get the black vote, you win the state. biden in 2020, hillary clinton in 2016, she beat sanders by 22, crushed him statewide, and in 2008, this is where it all got going for iowa. he -- obama. won iowa, lost new hampshire. set him off like it did for joe biden in 2020. the black vote obviously important there. in terms of measuring turnout tomorrow, trying to gauge enthusiasm, this is going to be tricky. we don't have exit polling but we don't have a history. that you're seeing is the democratic primaries in south carolina and the turnout. you see it very widely through the years. the key is this, no primary in '96. no primary in 2012. what do those two years have in common, bill clinton, an incumbent democrat in '96. the tradition is when you have an incumbent running for reelection, they cancel the

primary, so we really don't have examples of democratic presidents who have been in primaries in south carolina to compare turnout to, to compare biden's performance to. there's only one president who has ever had to run in a south carolina primary as an incumbent. you have to go back to 1992, republican, george bush sr. and pat buchanan had done better than expected in new hampshire, bush beat buchanan by 21. david duke was running that year. this is the only incumbent who's faced a primary in south carolina. so not much to compare this to. be interesting to see the numbers come in tomorrow. the other significance of tomorrow how it could affect the republican race three weeks from now. we get a poll this week, trump beating haley in her home state by 26 points. we know the importance of south carolina to haley, the particular importance of democrats to republicans in she's going to have any shot on february 24th. the rule in south carolina, no party registration, anybody can

vote tomorrow, but if you vote in tomorrow's democratic primary in south carolina, you cannot vote in the february 24th republican primary. so for haley, who is leaning on independents and democrats in particular, the higher that turnout gets tomorrow, probably the worst news it is for her because that's a pool of voters she's trying to get into the republican primary three weeks from fou. >> steve kornacki, thank you very much. we are seeing where they are heading out of the primary tomorrow night, particularly where black men stand because on paper, former president trump has been luring some of them away. joining us from charleston, south carolina, is msnbc correspondent, trymaine lee. you've had a lot of conversations down there. what have these folks been telling you? >> reporter: that's right. i have been all around the country in recent years, engaging with black voters. this is one of the first times in south carolina where black male voters, seem to be or more vocal about exploring their options. black voters have been

consistent in voting for democrats but there are a number of issues that have black men in particular considering their choices. let's hear a little bit of what i heard. >> there is some appeal there for some black men with trump. what is it? >> money. >> money? >> yeah. donald trump has the reputation of being the money man, so -- >> beyond the projection of a businessman, what is it that is appealing for so many black people, black men especially? >> i just think that donald trump in spite of all the craziness he may have in his head, reading some of the things that he talks about with business, i can kind of agree with as far as business-wise. i'm trying to grow my business. as far as biden, i haven't seen biden care about business like that. and my concern is having my business is i can build

generational wealth, so my kids can take upon with when i'm not here. >> a lot of people admire the persona, and they want to be him. they want to enjoy the perks that he has. he seems to always be able to circumvent the rules. >> i think there's a lot of generationally speaking, i think there's probably some familiarity with what he used to be. >> i'm going to be honest, i don't really know why people are arriving for trump like that. >> you're hearing that too, there's people in your orbit that are voting for donald trump or considering it. >> for sure. a lot of my friends are, we're a little younger, we've only voted once, you know, for president. and trump is kind of all we know, and they're trump and biden, they're like, well, we were broke with biden.

we weren't with trump. and that's kind of the only thing i'm hearing over and over again is that, well, trump, we had money. well, okay, i hear you guys, but personally, morally, i couldn't see myself. >> reporter: katy, i found a lot of the black male voters that i've talked with, basically in three buckets. those planning on voting for joe biden even though they're not excited, those considering voting for donald trump, and those who will sit out all together and take an off ramp out of the process. i think the latter group will be interesting to see how that plays out tomorrow during the primary and the general election. >> trymaine lee, thank you very much. this sunday, trymaine lee and charles coleman jr. will host a special, "black men in america the road to 2024" this sunday at 9:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc and streaming on peacock. coming up, what iran is warning as the u.s. prepares to launch retaliatory strikes

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it for months and we are finally about to see what's in the senate bill to reform immigration at the southern border. chuck schumer is pointing to texts coming out this weekend and a vote on the bill as soon as next wednesday. joining us now, "punchbowl news" cofounder and msnbc political contributor, jake sherman. so senator sinema is saying no one has seen the text of the bill yet. do you have any idea what's in it? >> no. they have not really said anything. speaker mike johnson, katy, his top aide, raj shah who worked in the trump white house, you'll remember, issued a statement, i think, yesterday, that said there's been no meaningful text that they've shared with the speaker's office, so very few people know what's in this bill. i think the leadership of the senate probably does and james langford, kyrsten sinema and chris murphy do, but outside of that, it's a pretty close hold. >> okay. so if they haven't seen it yet,

is there anything in this bill that could change their mind or politically speaking is this a nonstarter? >> it's a nonstarter for mike johnson. i think anything that comes out of the senate is going to be an incredibly heavy lift for the house of representatives for political reasons for the most part. the house has a lot of pride when it comes to legislation, i don't think they're going to want to take something that was negotiated between three people in the senate, that's just my guess. and i think the hard right is going to be against this no matter what. the question becomes, does that impact, in any way, the vote in the senate? i don't know the answer to that at this point. but mitch mcconnell is going to have to find more than half of his republican conference 25, 26, 27, something like that, lawmakers to vote for this for it to be viable in the senate for political reasons for mitch mcconnell. >> okay. so if you're talking about what's in this bill, there's immigration, there's also foreign aid in the bill. is there any way that the foreign aid gets split off and actually gets a vote not only in

the senate but also in the house? >> so that's a tricky question, katy. i think, yes, i think in the senate if this process falls apart, they're going to have to move to a security, national security only supplemental, number one. they're going to have to. now, it gets complicated in the house, i mean, the ukraine piece in the house is very complicated because house republicans have really dropped off when it comes to supporting ukraine. 107, i believe, voted for it last time. it's less than half of the house republican conference. i think the real question will be israel. will they do an israel supplemental alone. will the senate do it. will the house pass it without those corresponding spending cuts that mike johnson insisted on a couple of months ago, and i think the answer to that is probably at some point, the pressure will grow to do that. >> the pressure when you're talking about it growing, what about voters? are republicans worried about voters looking at them and saying you have been screaming about the border, for example, for months, if not years, and

you finally have a chance to do something about it, but you're not taking it. does that affect them in elections? >> it should. i mean, it should, right? john boehner used to say, and every speaker that i covered, republican speaker used to say, this is a down payment, right, we don't have all the branches of government. let's have a down payment. let's do something small that even if this is small, that will incrementally help the situation at the border, right? that would be the way to message that internally for mike johnson, and we hope that republicans could say, if donald trump is elected, we have the senate, we have the house, we could do something bigger, now, we know that's not necessarily true because donald trump didn't do something bigger when he had all the branches of government, but that would be a way to message it in a way that makes sense. listen, voters are right to be angry. this will be, if it gets to the senate, a bipartisan package, cut by one of the motorist conservative senators in the

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this afternoon at dover air force base, joe biden, the first lady and secretary of state welcomed back the remains of three american soldiers killed in a drone attack in jordan. now we wait for the president's response to their deaths. he has said he's decided what to do, and u.s. officials tell nbc news the pentagon is ready to hit multiple targets. joining us now, retired general and msnbc military analyst general barry mccaffrey. we talk about a proportional

response. is this going to be a proportional response? and if so, what does that look like? and secondly, should it be proportional, or should they go bigger given the gravity of what happened and just the sheer number of proxy groups out there that are being backed by iran? >> well, i dread those words "proportional response." the use of military power signals political intent is a dubious tool at best. what i think they're going to do, and it's an effecttive response, is a multitiered, prolonged, and hopefully more decentralized military response to threats as they pop up. that means threats to 2500 u.s. forces in iraq, some 900 in syria. perhaps 3,000 in jordan, and of course, u.s. naval elements in the red sea. they've simply got to degrade

their capabilities and minimize or eliminate these attacks. >> is it possible to do that? >> i think anything is possible. if you go to the air force and naval power enough time, and the authority to strike its targets. but it's a tough challenge. you know, the most tricky of all of these, of course, is the red sea. we have significant u.s. naval assets in the area. the u.s. air force is there in the region with enormous capabilities. it's affecting international trade. the egyptians and the suez canal are mute and have no comment to make in public, and except for the united kingdom, no one else seems publicly committed to using military force to keep the sea lanes open. so i think joe biden and his team are agonizing over this. they don't want to escalate this conflkt, but at some point, you

have to either withdraw your military forces or take actions. >> what are the considerations taking into account regarding timing? >> well, the minute we had a significant loss of u.s. military troops, three killed and maybe 50 something odd wounded in action now, every terrorist in the middle east went to ground, pulled a rug over their head, they turned off their radio transmitters. they definitely turned off every radar in yemen, north yemen. they're waiting for the strike to occur. that's why i think it's good that they delayed, and even more important that they are going to use distributed attacks. it's not going to be a one-off attack according to secretary austin. they'll try and go after real capabilities. >> general barry mccaffrey, thank you very much as we watch and wait. and in gaza, the southern city of rafah where thousands of palestinians are seeking refuge, young men and boys celebrated

the news of a possible truce between israel and hamas. so is there a deal to celebrate? joining us now from tel aviv, matt bradley. what do we know about the negotiations, and where they currently stand? >> reporter: yeah, we just heard from hamas, the head of the political bureau who lives in doha, qatar. he just released a statement saying that they had studied the proposal, and this has been something they've been talking about for the last couple of days, what is hamas going to say? he came out with this statement, where he kind of said that any negotiations need to be on the basis of the same demands that he already had before. the complete withdrawal of the israeli military from the gaza strip. they want to see a cease-fire, reconstruction. they want to see the lifting of the siege, and this siege has been there since 2006, so nearly two decades imposed by israel and egypt.

so these are kind of maximalist demands, since hamas took those hundreds of hostages in that terrorist attack october 7. so even though we heard last night from the ministry of foreign affairs, saying it looked like hamas might be coming on board with this, this same man said it looked like israel had agreed in principle to a deal, it doesn't look as though this deal is necessarily going to be sailing through with the same ease we thought it would last night when we heard those comment. in fact, it's possible that with the return, the reiteration of all of these demands, it could be that all of four of these parties, the u.s., qatar, israel, and egypt, all have to go back to the negotiating table, just like they did in paris, and hash out a new deal. we don't really know exactly what this means. it could just be militant

boilerplate language for propaganda purposes or we're back to square one. it does mean that this deal is not going to be sailing through as easily as we thought, and they won't be seeing the release of these hostages any time soon. >> that's some bad news. matt bradley, thank you very much. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪ ♪ hi, everyone. it is 4:00 here in washington, d.c. we are keeping a close eye on the middle east. the region bracing for a response from the united states to an attack on a base in jordan that killed three service members. if there is any news, we will be sure to bring it to you right away. we turn now in developments of the case of the ex-president. his trial on charges of plotting a coup against the government has been postponed. and we have suspected tha