before any attack begins, but what you're hearing from the u.n. and others is there is simply nowhere safe for them to run. >> right. >> reporter: the infrastructure is absolutely devastated, north of rafah there's some talk, oh, maybe they could go sit on a beach to the west of khan yunis, but there is no shelter there, we are in the winter here, and there is real, real concern if israel presses ahead with this assault it will be just devastation on a massive scale. >> so to be clear, 1.4 million palestinians, women, children, people going to sit on a beach possibly amidst an incursion on rafah. what does that even look like without supplies, so many of them starving as well, unbelievable. untenuous situation to say the least. raf sanchez, thank you. appreciate it. that does it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪

hi, everyone, it is 4:00 here in new york. i'm in for nicolle wallace on the presidents' day. as we come on the air the world continues to absorb the shock waves from the death of alexei navalny as tributes pure in around the globe as the sickening reality sets in that vladimir putin was silenced yet another of his critics, the world seemingly stands united in their grief and their outrage at the injustice and the certainty that navalny would still be alive but for vladimir putin. and yet here at home there has been one notable exception, the disgraced, twice impeached, four times indicted ex-president who said silent on navalny's death, who did not utter his name until today, three days after the world first learned that the russian opposition leader was dead and still trump notably has not condemned vladimir putin. no. instead in a twisted kind of metaphor trump likened himself

and his legal battles to the now martyred alexei navalny. it is not just trump, it is also trump's allies in the republican party following trump's lead, staying strangely muted on their criticisms and condemnations. here was south carolina senator tim scott struggling to answer a simple question about why trump stayed silent on navalny and putin for so long. >> we need strong leadership coming from america that actually pushes back against russia and other dictators, unfortunately joe biden is not up for that charge and donald trump is. >> well, donald trump hasn't said a word yet about the death of navalny or about putin's scalp ability. do you want trump to say something and why do you think he hasn't yet? >> well, jake, i think a better question really is let's look at the middle -- let's look at the middle of the challenges that we face today across the globe. the middle of the challenge you

see front and center is the failure of joe biden. >> that is more than head scratching. that is something much more insidious. it is something that did not go unnoticed by former congresswoman liz cheney. >> when you think about donald trump, for example, pledging retribution, what vladimir putin did to navalny is what retribution looks like in a country where the leader is not subject to the rule of law. i think that we have to take donald trump very seriously, we have to take seriously the extent to which, you know, you've now got a putin wing of the republican party. i believe the issue this election cycle is making sure the putin wing of the republican party does not take over the west wing of the white house. >> and that is where we start today with former congressman from florida, msnbc political analyst david jolly and co-host of msnbc's how to win 2024

podcast, claire mccaskill. how dangerous is that, the putin wing of the republican party? >> it's really scary. i think what is more scary is if you look at what navalny did, he returned to russia knowing that putin was going to come after him. that's called principled courage. that's called having the courage of caring about something more than yourself. then let's compare and contrast that to these ridiculous substitutes for real senators in the united states senate right now. you have lindsey graham who has been one of the biggest hawks, vis-a-vis putin, he knows he is a thug, he knows putin kills his enemies, he knows putin is everything that america is not, but yet, because he's trying out for vice president, he and tim scott go along and vote against aid to ukraine and go on tv and try to make excuses for clearly donald trump's effort to remain best friends with one of the -- should be considered one of the

most dangerous leaders in the whole world to the cause of freedom. and it is the opposite of what navalny was. there is no courage there. it is only a false faty to donald trump because these guys all want to be vice president. >> david jolly, to claire's point, it wasn't just tim scott, though i have to say tim scott sort of side stepping there was truly a remarkable type of mad libs i have never seen before. i want you to listen to congressman mike turner, him being asked about trump's comments on nato. >> former president trump recently said he would encourage russia to invade nato countries who he says haven't paid their bills. you have endorsed him. are you comfortable with him saying that, chairman? >> well, this is what i know, when donald trump was president he actually increased funding to nato itself. >> the words that he said this week, he said, i would encourage them, russia, to do whatever the heck they wanted. you've got to pay. you've got to pay your bills.

are you comfortable with that? >> this is what i know, donald trump's political rallies don't really translate into donald trump's actual policies. >> except the problem is, david, often they do. >> yeah, alicia, because the leader has followers. i think there is a unique shamefulness to see mike turner, tim scott, lindsey graham and others engage in this type of apologism to face plant on the knee of donald trump. they do it well from graham to scott to mike turner to elise stefanik. there is a unique shamefulness to it. what we can't overlook and this is a little bit of what we see from mike turner there, is the orthodoxy of the republican party has shifted over the decades. i don't believe the republican party today sees russia as an

adversary, i don't believe they see vladimir putin as evil. that is a pivot interest gop orthodoxy. i think what is so fascinating about that, as concerning as it is, sure, there are national security interests for the u.s. and the west to no longer see donald trump as an adversary -- or see vladimir putin as an adversary if republicans take control or if donald trump ends up in the white house. flip side of that coin is the embrace of american weakness. if you think about the challenge between the united states and russia and the fall of the soviet union over the decades, it was about the strength of america and the contest of ideas to protect individual liberty, to defend democracy, to protect a republic. we championed that on the world stage and that is why the contest was so strong and russia was seen as an adversary. today's republican party has embraced american weakness. they are okay looking the other way and giving equity to vladimir putin and russia and that's not just a pivot of

orthodoxy, that's a new chapter of republicanism, this chapter of american weakness that they are willing to run on. hopefully voters do see a distinction. >> help me understand, david, do you think of that embrace of that pifd as being just about donald trump or are there different origins that i'm not seeing? >> oh, i think it's the echo chamber. you can look at the tucker carlson interview and realize that so many, call them conservatives, magas, whatever they are, receive that word from tucker carlson as though that really matters. and then you see the likes of house republicans who are unwilling to legislate in the face of the threat. and so that's why the affirmation of the change of orthodoxy and the embrace of weakness is right in front of us. i think we've been duped into thinking this will all work out. somehow the house will pass the aid package. well, if they do they will do it with a majority of democratic votes and they will do it with republicans getting pulled

across finish line. we should accept where they are today as their position on russia, which is they are okay with russia invading ukraine. they are okay with a strengthening hand of vladimir putin and they are okay with american weakness. that is today's republican party and that is their orthodoxy. it is not just about fuelty to donald trump. >> claire, i want to play for you something that secretary hillary clinton had to say at the munich security council. >> the obvious point to make about donald trump is take him literally and seriously. he means what he says. people did not take him literally and seriously in 2016. now he is telling us what he intends to do and people who try to wish it away, brush it away, are living in an alternative reality. he will do everything he can to

become an absolute authoritarian leader if given the opportunity to do so. >> it's almost a perfect retort to that sound i played you earlier from representative turner, right, claire? i want you to both talk about this concept that we have to take him both literally and seriously, and talk about how that then might apply to the wing of the republican party who as david just said, this is now their orthodoxy. this is their belief as well. >> yeah, and i think, you know, all we have to do is think back to helsinki, that critical moment when donald trump came on the stage with putin and basically told america, i believe this murderous thug who will kill anyone who disagrees with him more than i believe my own intelligence officials, who, by the way, are mostly veterans of our armed services, of our military. so he took the word of this guy against his own people.

at that moment something shifted, like david said, something shifted in the orthodoxy of the presidency as it relates to donald trump and the republican party. now, the other thing to remember here is his first term he did surround himself with people who told him things he couldn't do. i know many of them, i know many of them told him that that was a huge mistake he made in helsinki and he should not have done that. bolton was there and kelly was there and mattis was there and milley was there and you had barr at the end finally walking away when trump refused to accept that what he was doing was illegal and fraudulent in relation to the election, but he's not going to do this this next time. he's going to surround himself with the navarros and the millers and all of the ones who are perfectly happy being his stooge. he will not take any guardrails

this next time. so hillary clinton is not surprisingly 100% correct. we should take him at his word. he will probably do everything he can, including walking away from nato. >> i mean, you take away those limited guardrails, david jolly, and you look at them in light of donald trump being conspicuously silent, just, for example, on navalny e three days to even utter his name and in a truth social post he had the audacity to compare himself to navalny. nikki haley no trouble condemning putin. take a listen. >> you look at this hero, he was fighting corruption, he was fighting what putin does and what did putin do? he killed him, just like he does all his political opponents. i think that's very telling. but this goes back to the fact that we need to remind the american people that vladimir putin is not our friend. vladimir putin is not cool.

this is not someone we want to associate with, this is not someone that we want to be friends with. this is not someone that we can trust. and so when you hear donald trump say in south carolina a week ago that he would encourage putin to invade our allies if they weren't pulling their weight, that's bone chilling. either he sides with putin and thinks it's cool that putin killed one of his political opponents, or he just doesn't think it's that big of a deal. either one of those is concerning. either one of those is a problem. >> so about a million things i want you to weigh in on, david jolly. one, the audacity to compare himself to alexei navalny, that is number one. number two that sound from nikki haley, i don't know how you declare that and still come out and potentially endorse donald trump. it felt that was potentially a pivotal moment. to claire's point about the lack of guardrails, she's not going to be secretary of state.

if he were to win a second term she is not going to be in the inter sanctum saying, sir, this is against america's best interest. >> nor will mike pence be the vice president as he uttered the same things as he ran for president or mike pompeo or any of the traditional foreign policy stalwarts in today's republican party. you have to make the pivot that lindsey graham and tim scott have had and good for nikki haley that she has not made those pivot. those are reassuring words to here but she is 35 points behind in her home state, has signed a pledge to vote for donald trump and has said as late as last night she would pardon donald trump if convicted. saying if the supreme court does not give the former president immunity i would if i'm president. the words of condemnation are important but we have yet to see from nikki haley someone who exercises real leadership in the moment. i think the critical part of this, though, is the 35 points behind because that has become a minority voice in today's republican party. we had some of the up and comers in congress introduce legislation that said if a house

member votes for aid to ukraine they have to deploy to the front line of the ukraine/russian war. it's almost comical how unserious today's republican party s those are the voices, those unserious voices who care not about our own national security and the interest of the west that are the leading voices in today's republican party. i think claire and secretary clinton are exactly right, donald trump will withdraw from nato, he will find it an unimportant alliance, he will say that they do nothing for the u.s., he will not recognize there is a u.s. national security interest in the west past our shores and he will say if the u.s. has a reason to respond, we will do it, but we don't need nato and he will position it in an american first agenda that the maga republicans will lap up just like they always have. >> claire, to create a contrast here, president biden was asked about navalny's death, he was asked about house republicans. let's take a listen to what he had to say. >> would you say alexei

navalny's blood is on the hands of house republicans right now? >> i wouldn't use that term. they are making a big mistake not responding. look, the way they're walking away from the threat of russia, the way they're walking away from nato, the way they're walking away from our obligations is just shocking. i mean, they're wild. i have never seen anything like this. >> does it make any difference in nudging house republicans to take up ukraine aid. they are on vacation right now. >> i hope so, but i'm not sure anything is going to change. >> it's really that last piece that i want to focus on, claire, the fact that you have -- you even have house speaker talk being how he's outraged about all of this as though mike johnson there's nothing he can do about it when it reality he has an aid package to ukraine that he could push through his caucus, but is choosing not to. so that last piece, right, does this change anything for house republicans on the aid package? i wonder what you make of the

president's response. >> well, like his colleagues across the -- down the hallway, mike johnson is choosing to have political power rather than be principled. really there is only one person in america right now that could really answer putin correctly and that is mike johnson. he can put that aid package on the floor and do you know what would happen if he would put it on the floor? it would pass. and he knows that. he and he alone is standing between the united states doing what david referred to and that is taking our rightful place as leaders of the world in terms of human rights, democracy, the freedom to speak out against your political opponents without being afraid of being murdered. all of those things. and mike johnson, he can do it. he could do it next week, the day they get back from a break, which i'm trying to figure out what they're doing on a break with the government about to

shut down and this aid package lingering. but do you know what he's going to do? he's going to be more worried about staying speaker and getting power as speaker than he is the fate of ukraine and the fate of freedom as it relates to the western world. >> david, claire, you are not going anywhere. when we come back, unease and fear growing around the world that the one voice standing up for democracy within russia has been silenced. there have been hundreds of arrests for simply laying flowers to honor alexei navalny. ambassador michael mcfaul is back on what is next for russia. plus, the fake electors scheme to overturn biden's 2020 win, one of the most prominent of those officials in the state of wisconsin now speaking out, saying he was essentially hood winked by the trump campaign, now finds himself cooperating with special counsel jack smith. and later in the show from the justice department to the supreme court, how donald trump is trying to make sure no one stands in his way in his pursuit of a second term.

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today the widow of alexei navalny, vladimir putin's most prominent critic is seeking justice against russia officials who she accuses of fatally poisoning navalny in the prison they say died on friday and covering up his cause of death. they say his mother was told his son died from sudden death syndrome and his body would not be shown for two weeks while expert examinations were carried

out. his widow said she will keep his fight alive, vigils and makeshift memorials are being met with arrests. in a crackdown by authorities for any show of support for the op sis leader. the prominent rights group says over 400 people have been detained while paying tribute to over a dozen russian cities, with many fined or ordered to serve up to 15 days in jail. joining our conversation former u.s. ambassador to russia now an msnbc international affairs analyst, michael mcfaul. ambassador mcfaul, i wonder what you make of what is happening in russia right now, the crackdowns on memorials and navalny's death is a blow to many russians who had pinned their hopes for democracy on the movement he was leading. >> well, i'd say a couple of things, first of all, i'm inspired by people that have the courage to go out and demonstrate at a time when they know they will face really dire consequences. i think that shows that there are still brave people that

shave navalny's values and reject mr. putin and his totalitarian dictatorship and his evil, sadistic ways, the way he killed mr. navalny. second, the fact that putin's regime feels they have to arrest all of these people i think underscores his weakness. strong leaders don't have to kill their opponents, they defeat their opponents in elections, they don't have to arrest people like this. there is this constant debate in the west about putin being strong and supported by everyone. these are small signs that maybe he is not as strong and as revered as everybody thinks. >> your reaction to russian prison officials claiming navalny died from, quote, sudden death syndrome. his which had accusing them of trying to cover up his murder. >> putin killed navalny. i don't need to say anymore. maybe we will know something about the actual causes. sudden death syndrome seems

extremely strange to me. he was just on a video the day before and he was under horrific circumstances the way -- they were poisoning him, they were torturing him, excuse me, for three years under incredibly barbaric conditions. the night before he was killed yulia, his wife described them to me. make no mistake about that. had they not arrested him and put him in those conditions he would not be dead today. he was a strong person physically and mentally and intellectually before his imprisonment. we just need to report it straight. putin killed navalny and as his wife yulia has asked, we need to hold him accountable for those actions. >> i want to play for you some of what ambassador john bolton told our colleague jen psaki yesterday about trump's silence and russian prison officials claiming navalny side from sudden death syndrome. watch. >> trump has been completely silent. he had a two-hour speech yesterday, said nothing. what do you make of that?

>> well, heaven forbid he say anything critical of vladimir putin. look, accidents don't happen in those kinds of russian prison camps. he they told her the cause of death was sudden death syndrome. i'd sure like to know what that is, maybe it means you are alive one minute and dead the next. i don't know what else it could mean. >> ambassador, i want to know what you make of donald trump being absolutely silent on putin specifically this week. >> well, i'm not surprised by it. four years ago when navalny was poisoned i wrote a column in the "washington post" saying the whole world is outraged and mr. trump was silent at the time, president trump was silent at the time. so that's consistent. i don't see him changing. what i don't understand is why other members in his party won't come out and stand for good against evil. speaker johnson, exactly along the conversation you were just having, we have the power -- not me personally, but literally

speaker johnson and his colleagues in the house of representatives, they have the ability to do something to respond to this horrific assassination and to respond to the horrific killing that is going on every single day in ukraine. i heard speaker johnson, i've heard other members of his party speak very clearly about good versus evil. i was just in munich with some of them. they were using that language. rarely do you have an opportunity to do something concrete, to fight evil. they have it. it's right in their hands and they should do t and not worry about the consequences of mr. trump, because i guarantee you history will not be kind to them if they don't. i'm reading a lot of literature for a course i'm teaching right now on the 1930s and a lot of americans said some really pretty damning things about not worrying about hitler, not worrying about war, not our problems, those statements and

inactions look extremely damning in hindsight. these guys, speaker johnson in the lead, have the opportunity not to be part of that and do the right thing. it's literally in their hands right now. >> and, ambassador, the fact that you have the former president comparing himself to alexei navalny, i have to imagine that made your skin crawl. >> yeah, i wish i could say i was surprised, but i wasn't. i just hope that others in his party can see the difference. that is an atrocious comparison and you're right, i don't even have words to respond. i just want people to do the right thing when they have the power to do the right thing. >> i guess my curiosity after your having spent so much time in mun i didn't think with global leaders, do you have the sense that they are having conversations that they are bracing for the possibility, one, of donald trump and a second term, but even with or without donald trump the fact that if we go back to what david jolly was saying, there has been a pivot within the republican

party to embrace authoritarianism, to not commit to democracy as a core ethos of the united states. >> well, i'd say two things. first of all, the world is scared to death of the return of donald trump and it goes back to the 1930s. they worry we're just going to quit on the world, we're going to say that's not my problem over there, that's not my problem over there, and we know how that decade ended in the horrific tragedy of world war ii and everybody is nervous about that, especially leaders from our front line nato allies that worry two to three years from now if putin prevails in ukraine that his army and his military industrial complex will become stronger and then when it comes to a test of the nato alliance, mr. trump will back down. that was a 1930s vibe in munich all over. but the second thing to your point about the republican party, yes, that is a movement towards supporting

authoritarianism, but i think that fight is not over yet. i know republicans, i met with them in munich, who agree with me, but they're just afraid of mr. trump. and i hope that for some immediately, maybe they will get through their primaries and then might have the courage to do the right thing. they're worried right now in the immediate run, but in the long run i hope they're also going to fight not just for their party but for the united states of america. if we are not the leader of the free world, if we abdicate that responsibility, the consequences for small d democrats all over the world will be bad, but it will be bad for us as well. it will come back to haunt us and i'm cautiously optimistic that that fight within the republican party is still going on and i hope the right side of that fight wins. >> ambassador michael mcfaul, as always, thank you so much for your time. after the break, they were a central cog in donald trump's scheme to overturn the results

of the 2020 election. now some of those fake electors say they were tricked by republican attorneys and that they went along with the elector plot out of a sense of fear. of what? wait until you hear from the former head of wisconsin's gop. that is next. former head of wisconsin's gop that is next on 5g-powered analytics to help improve player performance. t-mobile's network helps aaa stay connected nationwide... to get their members back on the road. and las vegas grand prix chose t-mobile to help fuel operations for one of the world's largest racing events. now is the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. (♪♪) we're lucky to have this team working for us. our therapists give their all each day, by helping those who need it most. we take great pride not just in the job our team does, but in them as people. our people. and while we're in the business of taking care of others... it's important our therapists know that with benefits from principal, they're taken care of too.

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today new inside perspective into an essential element of donald trump's scheme to overturn the results of the 2020 election. remember knows fake electors, republicans across seven states

who after trump lost signed fraudulent documents identifying themselves as legitimate electors? trump's lawyers insisted these were merely alternate slates should fraud be proven in court and states be overturned. that is special counsel jack smith alleges in his criminal indictment things evolved over time from a legal strategy to preserve trump's rights to a corrupt plan to stop president biden's electors votes from being counted and certified. the indictment goes on to suggest some of those electors were tricked. now one of them, the former head of the republican party in wisconsin, is describing that deceit in new detail. andrew hitt says republican lawyers told him and his fellow fake electors that the constitution mandated documents be signed on a specific date as a formality. so that once fraud was proven, their slate would be legitimate and accepted. here is andrew hitt on"60 minutes". >> we got specific advice from our lawyers that these documents

were meaningless unless a court said they had meaning. >> you personally don't believe that legitimate votes by wisconsin residents should be tossed out and yet you were signing a document in support of a lawsuit which is alleging just that. >> and if i didn't do that and the court did throw out those votes, it would have been solely my fault that trump wouldn't have won wisconsin. >> joining our conversation former lead investigators for the january 6th select committee tim hafey. david and claire are both with us. tim, in the 1/6 committee you spoke with andrew hitt. i want you to describe what you used his testimony to prove and why you think special counsel jack smith appears so keen on having people like hitt as a witness. >> well, thanks, alicia, first of all, mr. hitt demonstrates that this was a plan hatched in washington, not in madison,

wisconsin. this was an rnc trump campaign led endeavor. mr. hitt, the advice that mr. hitt is talking about there came from washington. so this was heart part of a national strategy in certain contested states to generate these fake electors and the trick comes in because people like mr. hitt were told this is a contingency. in the event of litigation we need to have signed certificates to there would be certified trump electors. the issue is that it was not just in the contingency basis but they were meant to go before vice president pence to give him an alternative on january 6th regardless of litigation. so we found and mr. hitt was very helpful, as were other fake electors, a, orchestrated from washington and, b, what he was told about contingency was not the plan that was executed. all of that, alicia, goes to intent, goes to common scheme,

goes to the intentionality of the political campaign to disrupt the joint session. >> david jolly, one of the things that is so striking is if you watch this your question is like why did you do it? if you didn't believe legitimate votes in your state were being tossed why sign your name on these documents. take a listen to what hitt said. >> beautiful kids. good? good? i'm going to blame you, andrew, if they don't do it. >> can you imagine the repercussions on myself, my family, if it was me, andrew hitt, who prevented donald trump from winning wisconsin? >> you're saying you were scared. >> absolutely. >> scared of trump supporters in your state? >> it was not a safe time. if my lawyer is right, and the whole reason trump loses wisconsin is because of me, i would be scared to death. >> david, you didn't need to see that tape to know that the answer was going to be fear,

right, because this is how trump and his team govern and contain power is through fear. >> yeah, alicia, i think it's a fascinating conversation and a good one for the world to see because there you see the wisconsin state chair perhaps acting out of intimidation, fear for his own safety or maybe just proximity to power and he wanted to be a political player, but i think what everybody understands and, you know, tim had a much closer seat to this particular individual, everybody understands following advice of counsel and following bad advice. he apparently struggled with whether or not to follow the advice of counsel, he wasn't quite sure how it would work, but he deferred to people who at least projected that they had a better understanding of constitutional process. so for those who say, look, i was duped on process, maybe they deserve a little bit of grace, everybody can decide whether that's the case or not, but what this absolutely affirms is jack smith's charge of conspiracy to defraud the united states

because while this particular state chairman may or may not have known what he was being told was a lie, the people telling him knew it was a lie. the likes of rudy giuliani and ken chesebro and donald trump. everyone who was orchestrating this from washington and giving him that advice knew it was wrong advice and knew it was part of a broader conspiracy which is why jack smith has the former president dead to rights when we start to see interviews like this. >> claire mccaskill as david jolly was speaking i could see your prosecutor eyes light up at the suggestion this was all going to be about process. >> i don't know where andrew hitt got his law degree but he needs to call them and ask them for his money back. the idea -- this is not -- andrew hitt was not some uneducated roux, this is an attorney. i'm sorry, i think he's trying to cover himself now. i think he's, you know, worried about what went down and he's trying to say a lawyer told me. well, he is a lawyer for gosh

sakes. why didn't he check what the precedent was. there is no law anywhere that allows people to pretend they are electors from a state when they're not. anywhere. so it is ridiculous that he is now saying i was just told by a lawyer. well, that's just silly. and the second thing is we know this is a conspiracy because remember what happened the morning of january 6th? remember what these folks in washington were trying to do? they were trying to get wisconsin's fake electors to ron johnson to hand to mike pence, and remember ron johnson, my staff and pence -- i'm sure that others on this panel can speak to the specifics of this better than i can, but i know this, ron johnson was also trying to cover his you know what after it was over, pretending like he wasn't part of the deal where they were trying to get fake electors in front of pence in order to

forestall the peaceful transfer of power that the constitution does mandate. so i'm not crying any crocodile tears for andrew hitt. >> the world's smallest violin. another interesting portion of that "60 minutes" piece, a conversation with someone who is 23 years old, in grad school, she was asked to hand deliver the fake electors paperwork to washington because it got lost in the mail. take a listen. >> she showed us her email chain from ken chesebro and the trump campaign senior advisor mike roman. >> explaining i should only give the documents to ken chesebro. they asked me to meet up with him outside the trump hotel. >> did you know what he looked like? >> he sent me a selfie. >> so that you would know it was him? >> yeah. >> can i see it? >> she still has the photo saved on her phone. >> that's ken chesebro. >> uh-huh. >> what did he say to you? >> he kind of took a dramatic step back and looked at me and said, you might have just made

history. >> i don't know how they can be both so nefarious and so dopey at the same time just over and over again. i take claire's point very well about the fact that hitt has a law degree, that he should have known better. this is a reminder, though, there were also people downstream who got caught up in this thing. >> yeah, to claire's point, alicia, the document itself that mr. hitt signed purports to be official. it says we, the duly certified electors of the state of wisconsin. they weren't duly certified, right? so the face of the document, you don't need a law degree to see if you are putting your signature to something that's patently false, it's against the law. so i agree with claire that a little bit of this revisionism sort of covers up realtime kind of mindful involvement in this scheme. and this young law student, you know, the notion that she's making history. this isn't how we make history. this isn't how a constitutional

democracy works, a furtive hand to an unknown lawyer outside of the capitol building. we are rules and standards and we are a nation of laws that enshrine how we conduct elections, how the transfer of power works in this country. it has worked for centuries with everyone respecting it. and this keystone cops notion of some sort of spy-like passage of a fake document, it just shows how completely ridiculous it is. and it's going to be fertile ground for jack smith to show that they had to go around the law. they knew that they were not playing by the rules but are doing some kind of bad spy-type handoff, all very, very important evidence for the special counsel when he's talking about intent. >> david jolly, claire mccaskill, thank you for spending time with us. tim, you are speaking with me. up next, a terrifying display of hate and intimidation on the streets of nashville just this weekend. another sign the far right is

embolden and much more open and explicit about their extremism. that story is next. explicit about their extremism that story is next t-mobile built a 5g network so powerful, it goes beyond the expected. and now, t-mobile 5g internet for homes and businesses is here. just 50 bucks a month with no exploding bills or annual contracts.

a terrifying display of hatred and white supremacy on the streets of nashville over the weekend after a group of neo-nazis marched down down and around the state capital. reports from social media show the demonstrators all men wore red, long-sleeve t-shirts and black pants. and some carried black nazi flags. marchers red shirts included the words blood tribe which

according to the anti-defamation league is a new white supremacist membership organization. national police saying the group ultimately left after vocal opposition challenged them on the street. one on looker posting to his social media account confronted the marchers. >> [ bleep ] cowards. show me your [ bleep ] faces. is your face you [ bleep ] coward. show me your face. show me your face. all of you. >> cowards. >> this is a problem that is not going away, if anything it is on the rise, last fall the fbi released a report finding hate crimes reached an all time high in 2022 in this country. joining our conversation frank figliuzzi, tim is also back with us. frank, what can you tell us about these groups who are in nashville this weekend? >> yeah, i think it's important for viewers to understand exactly who these people are

because they can seem both ridiculous and threatening at the same time and they are both ridiculous and threatening. here is the deal with blood tribe, they follow a guy who is a former u.s. marine, which is disturbing enough, his name is christopher polehouse, he actually had purchased ten acres of land in maine because he is one of these people who believes in establishing an ethno state where only white people will live and they view anyone who is not white as threatening, quote, their blood right, unquote. what do they believe? they believe a combination of norse odinism which is the follow the norse god white paganism, of the norse god wohat, or odin. their leader, christopher polehouse, has a tattoo of norse symbols on the side of his face which spell out wohat, or odin, the norse god.

and they are at the very end of the extreme level of nazi white supremacy. what do i mean by that? they reject groups like the proud boys as not being extreme and violent enough. and let's remember, the proud boys started as a fighting club. but yet not violent enough for these guys. and i say guys because it's men only. they are emphasizing fitness and training for an ultimate kind of battle. their phrase they use is "there will be blood." so that's who they are. so these big tough nazi guys, they were booted essentially and high-tailed it out of nashville because one guy yelled at them. that's who they are. >> tim, it feels like this has gotten worse since the 2017 unite the right rally in charlottesville. >> yeah, this brings back a lot of memories, alicia, for people like me who live in charlottesville. there we had a much greater number who were more affirmatively provocative.

the playbook for a lot of these groups is often say things that provoke a violent response to justify violence, to claim the mantle of self-defense and engaging in race-based violence. it seems like this much smaller group in nashville, hard to tell what the goal was but to just sort of provocatively be present for a short period of time and then disperse. the frightening thing about the rhetoric is how violent it is. and you have to ask yourself, if the blood tribe is -- everything from the name to the rhetoric suggests that there will be blood, that this ideology will be pursued violently, we've seen time and time again examples in this country of how extreme ideology is not relegated to the dark corners of the internet but sometimes motivates people to actually act on that hateful ideology. god forbid that happens here. hard to tell how influential or powerful this group is. as frank said, they sort of walk through the downtown area and

pretty quickly dispersed when someone yelled at them. nonetheless, it's alarming because it shows this isn't just an ideology that lurks out in extreme corners of the dark web. there are people that are willing to go public with this, and if they're willing to go public with it, god forbid they're willing to take active steps to perpetuate that ideology. >> and i want to talk more about that. but i've got to sneak in a very quick break. frank and tim, stay with me. we'll talk about it on the other side. y with me. we'll talk about it on the other side it's time. yes, the time has come for a fresh approach to dog food. everyday, more dog people are deciding it's time to quit the kibble and feed their dogs fresh food from the farmer's dog. made by vets and delivered right to your door precisely portioned for your dog's needs. it's an idea whose time has come. ♪♪

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neo-nazi march over the weekend in downtown nashville. my question, frank, is what did we learn from those counterprotesters? >> ah, yeah. look, there's another domestic terror group known as the 3 percenters. they call themselves that because they believe it only took 3% of the american colony population to overthrow the british. well, guess what? there's a lot more than 3% of us right now who condemn naziism. and what these people are doing. and we can come out without violence, call it out, condemn it, and they will back off. we need republican leaders to do that in droves. and so far i'm not seeing that out of tennessee. >> frank figliuzzi, tim heap hi, thank you for spending some time with us. in the next hour donald trump says his scotus appointments were too independent. his justice department attorneys were too weak. if he's reelected trump is looking for one thing and one thing only in his appointments, and that is loyalty.

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you're going to lose your entire department leadership. every single a.g. will walk out on you. your entire department leadership will walk out within hours. and i don't know what happens after that. and i said mr. president, within 24, 48, 72 hours you could have hundreds and hundreds of resignations of the leadership of your entire justice department because of your actions. what's that going to say about you? >> hi again, everyone. it is 5:00 here in new york. i'm alicia menendez in for nicolle wallace. when donald trump was in office, there were those in his administration, especially in the justice department, that reined him in and told him when his schemes went too far and in some instances were willing to sacrifice their positions to stand up for what was right. now as trump makes his third bid for the white house he has made it known that this time around he will surround himself with those who do the exact opposite, put him and his agenda, no

matter how extreme, before the nation's interests. it could have devastating consequences for our judicial system, a hallmark of american democracy. new extensive reporting in the "washington post" explores trump's complicated relationship with the courts and the department of justice. "trump has more broadly gravitated away from the gop establishment he has long derided but learned to work with in his term as president. the implications of his shift could be significant, from potentially imperilling a long-observed firewall between the white house and the justice department to appointing lawyers in his administration willing to approve novel approaches to law and dare courts to stop them, to shifting the nation's court further to the right." it all comes down to loyalty to the ex-president, who believes his re-election is key to escaping some of the multiple indictments he's been charged with just in the past year. more from that post reporting. "trump has complained publicly and privately that his

first-term justice department leaders were too weak, that his supreme court picks have tried to come across as too independent, that the court system has broadly been biased against him as he faces 91 felony charges. trump told donors in meetings in late 2023 that one of his only mistakes as president was that he did not pick the right people to lead the justice department, according to people who attended. and he regularly discusses plans for the department in a second term. in some ways the handshake agreement he once held with the traditional conservative legal movement has evaporated. donald trump has been very clear on his expectations should he return to the white house. he openly said he would be a dictator on day one and that he wants to prosecute his enemies. in the same way that last hour we discussed how a second trump term would upend u.s. foreign policy, now we turn our focus to how the former president could continue to upend our system of justice. that is where we start this hour with national investigative reporter for the "washington post" carol leonnig.

plus co-host of the msnbc podcast "prosecuting donald trump." and with me at the table host of the podcast "fast politics" and special correspondent for "vanity fair" msnbc political analyst molly jong-fast. carol, a large aspect of this reporting by your colleagues is about trump versus the conservative legal establishment. talk about that, how it fits into the danger that trump poses to the american justice system. >> what i like about this report big my great colleagues at the "washington post" is it focuses in on something over the horizon in a way which is that the federalist society, which saw donald trump and frankly would have seen any republican president who replaced president obama, as a tool essentially, a platform through which the conservative legal movement could make good on a basically 25-year quest to create a majority on the supreme court and to add more conservative-leaning justices -- forgive me, judges to the rest

of the federal judiciary. here you see that three really critical people that were part of that juggernaut, what i think of as a very good conceptual scoop, these three people are no longer on donald trump's side. they are rooting against him. and they were an intellectual and a practical force to get things done and to stack the court exactly the way the conservative movement wanted to. remember mitch mcconnell is number one on this list, who blocked merrick garland from becoming obama's nominee. you also have leonard leo, a real force of nature in the uber conservative catholic movement. very close ties to federalist society judges and future wannabe nominees. these people made it happen, if you know what i mean. and there is obviously long-term concern about whether or not donald trump will sort of sidle up to them or sidle up to a new entirely different group. >> i think it's interesting,

molly, that you do have conservative lawyers, judge luttig, i'm thinking of george conway, who have come out and not only stood against trump but also said we need to reimagine a conservative legal movement that actually gives opportunity to people who want an alternative to all of this. but the fact that you haven't heard that from leonard leo, the fact that you haven't heard that from mitch mcconnell, what does that tell you? >> i mean, they're not very brave. right? this is such an interesting moment because you know, sometimes we're critical about mainstream reporting, we say they focus more on the odds than on the stakes. but this is a really great example of pro-democracy journalism. right? they're focusing on the stakes. they're showing us exactly what the plans are for 2024. and i think it's really important to appreciate that because that is really important. i would say the federalist society in the first trump term, they really treated trump like a useful idiot. right? he was sort of -- he did what they wanted. they got what they wanted from him. now, i mean, you could see he's

sort of rejected them and is sort of mad at them. so you could see him with like -- you're going to see a lot more rudy giulianis in this white house if this happens. you'll see a lot more alina habbas. you're not going to see the really top-tier people because those people won't work in the trump white house. >> there's a political dimension to all of this, carol, that i want you to help me understand. this is a little bit more from the reporting first. as he runs for another term trump talks about judicial issues in less detail than he did during his first run. his unwillingness to speak about the supreme court and conservative judicial issues has concerned some allies. the former president talks less frequently than he once did about judges and does not plan to make judges a centerpiece of his campaign, campaign advisers say. even though conservatives view the topic as one of the most substantial accomplishments and one that motivated many of his supporters in 2016, he has not issued a new list of potential nominees. what is going on there, carol? >> keep in mind that the supreme

court justices who were named, donald trump believed that they owed their jobs to him and that they should rule in his favor. and remember how the supreme court handled turning over records to the january 6th committee and that it was the appropriate legal decision, but it wasn't one that donald trump viewed as loyal to him. he has said over and over very publicly that he's disappointed in judges who didn't do what's best for him because they owe him, they're his judges. that is sort of anathema to the supreme court. kind of repulsed in a way that's physically described. they don't belong to anybody. in fact, one of the things that they kind of pride themselves on is the lifetime appointment and nobody can yank me out of here. so it's very disconcerting to the justices. and donald trump now, let's be clear, i mean, he is focused not on accomplishing but defending himself.

election is the route to not being in jail. and so you can see why this accomplishment that leonard leo is so proud of, that don mcgahn is so proud of, you can see why it doesn't mean a hill of beans to donald trump because those justices have not stood up for him in his view. >> let's talk, andrew, about that accomplishment. under the trump administration the gop-controlled senate confirmed 174 district court judges, 54 circuit court judges, and three supreme court justices. that is the first term. if he were to win a second term, how could he remake the legal landscape? >> well, it's important to remember there's sort of two issues going on here. first is that elections have consequences, legitimate consequences. so if you have like a legitimate conservative president they have a right to nominate and assuming

they're qualified to get confirmed those judges. and so for many, many of those judges who are appointed people may disagree with their judicial philosophy but that's the consequence. and that is a reason to either vote for him or against him, depending on principle. what philosophy do you have. but i think what carol and the reporting really about is that donald trump doesn't give a hill of beans to the idea of judicial philosophy and acting out of principle. that is all transactional to him. wait a second, when i appointed that person, it wasn't because of their philosophy, it wasn't because they were going to abide by the rule of law, but judged on the conservative side this was an idea that wait a second-u can't rule against me no matter what it is that i bring because this is what you get with an authoritarian regime. i just would like to point out

this is not just an issue that we are focusing on the department of justice. i would say that's incredibly dear to my heart. i worked there for over 20 years. it is also important to remember that this phenomenon that carol and her intrepid colleagues are reporting on is equally something people should be concerned about about the department of defense and the idea of them installing people there who have the exact same view, in other words, not being tethered to the rule of law, to doing whatever it is that your boss tells you to do. but that's not how our country is supposed to work. now, it may be that there are enough people who will vote for donald trump who think that is how the country will work, but we will be in a completely new and different landscape. >> especially, carol, because he's telegraphing a vision of retribution and revenge. i wonder what the reporting says about the ways in which he anticipates leveraging these institutions to that end.

>> well, in addition to what we talked a little bit about today and the story also describes, you know, installing loyalists who will bend over backwards to do whatever donald trump says, the constitution, the law be damned, in addition to that you can see the way in which donald trump has described already that he has a free-for-all in his hands if he is elected, to use the justice department to criminalize acts of his detractors. if he doesn't like someone in a senate race and thinks they have not shown fealty to him, he's essentially said i could go after them. the door is open now because the biden administration allowed me to be indicted on a host of counts. i can't actually separate from the 91 how many are federal at this juncture. but he has opened the door for using the levers of power, and

the department of justice is the one with the most power, to cause pain and harm to people. there are people who are very spooked about what donald trump will do in that first day as a dictator and what they anticipate will be weeks and weeks more of the same. >> and some of the people who are concerned, molly, are this chorus of former trump lawyers who've spoken out against him. here's just a few. take a listen. >> trump needs people around him who will push back and help keep him on the straight and narrow, frankly. and i am concerned that if he doesn't -- during his first term the main way that could be done is by pointing out to him how this would hurt his prospects for a second term. once he wins a second term, i don't know, you know, what considerations can be used to

push back against bad ideas. >> if i knew then what i know now, i would have declined to represent donald trump in these post-election challenges. i look back on this whole experience with deep remorse. >> i think you have to take trump seriously because he poses the gravest threat to democracy that we've ever seen. >> bill barr, jenna ellis, ty cobb. i understand that the base and the republican loyalists in congress are not going to listen to you or me or andrew weissmann. why not listen to those folks, though? why not listen to the folks who were in the inner sanctum, who saw it firsthand, who were to varying degrees a bit repentant? why not follow their lead? >> or even mitch mcconnell at moments who've said -- what i thought was striking about this reporting was that trump is not even trying to appeal to the federalist society crew anymore. he's not even trying to appeal to leonard leo. you know, he's like this is my own thing. now, i am really worried.

i think we should all be really worried because if american democracy goes i don't know what happens next. >> we started with a clip of acting attorney general richard donoghue saying many others at the justice department would have resigned if trump installed jeffrey clark as a.g. following the 2020 election because he was so unqualified, so unwilling to do trump's bidding. the post reports that clark is among those at the center of discussions about a second term. i wonder what that tells you. >> well, you're going to see those people who are going to give -- if you think there are people in congress now who are appeasing donald trump, those are the people who you are going to see taking positions in the executive branch. those kinds of checks. and to be clear, these are the checks coming not from the deep state. these are coming from the deep

republican party. they will not be in a position to do that. so really all the checks and balances within the executive branch are off. we've already seen that congress is not willing to stand up to him, people who privately will say things but also are engaged in appeasement, and one of the sort of few checks we have left is the legal system. hence the reporting about judges who are going to be looked for, their qualifications will be loyalty, not adherence to the rule of law. and unfortunately, there are some signs of that in trump-appointed judges, but many, just to be clear, many of the trump-appointed judges have done the right thing, uphold the rule of law, but i think those

are going to be few and far between the more that donald trump has actually seen that those judges actually operate in a world that he does not even contemplate or understand, which is a rule of law where they think about principle and they didn't sign up for an authoritarian state. but those people are going to go by the way of the dinosaur in a sort of trump 2.0 administration. >> well, i want to be clear because we've talked about the justice department and we've talked about d.o.d. we talked a little bit about the courts writ large. but andrew, i do want to underscore what we're talking about here with the supreme court. this is from the reporting. "although trump reshaped the supreme court while in office leading to the overturning of roe he has spiemz told others that the decision is a political albatross for republicans and he has complained recently at rallies about the supreme court and the decisions the judges make saying without evidence they rule too often against republicans to show, quote,

independence." this is a critical moment, andrew, for the supreme court. >> it is. and you know, i have many, many differences with decisions made by the supreme court. but i can look at decisions by justice roberts and justice kavanaugh and justice amy coney barrett and say they're at least within the legal framework of an american judicial system. and i am confident that there is a majority of the supreme court justices who are fully cognizant of the threat that is posed and will adhere to the rule of law. but it is a grave, grave threat. i should note, one of the things that a donald trump 2.0

presidency could bring is a restriction on the cases the supreme court could hear. the jurisdiction of the supreme court is not set in stone in the constitution for all time. that is something that can be restricted by an executive branch, obviously with the assistance of congress. but that is not something that you can say oh, it's always been this way, it will always be that way. i am confident that you have trump looking over at benjamin netanyahu saying why in god's green earth didn't i think of that? and undermining the role of the supreme court if he thinks that they are not doing his bidding. he can also seek to pack the court, which is to expand it to basically make a minority out of those justices, republican or democrat, who are going to adhere to the rule of law, to try and install people that

obviously congress would have to approve who are willing to justice do his bidding. >> right. which brings us back constantly to this question of whether or not they will in fact serve as a guardrail. carol leonnig, andrew weissmann, thank you both so much for starting us off. molly, you are sticking with me. when we come back, the ex-president is back to slamming absentee and mail-in voting, even as republicans are trying to get their voters to come around to vote by mail. plus incredible new reporting that donald trump supports a national abortion ban at 16 weeks. because he likes the sound of the number. and later in the program the fallout from the devastating $350 million-plus judgment in the trump civil fraud case and how the trump family may be facing a massive cash crunch. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. so don't go anywhere. eak. so don't go anywhere

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at first glance the ex-president's false claims against mail-in voting over the weekend aren't all that interesting. he called for supporters at his rally to, quote, get it through their heads that mail-in voting is, quote, totally corrupt. it has to be. it's nothing out of the ordinary for the stubborn unhinged leading gop candidate, reverting to his original misguided big lie that all kinds of voting must be corrupt. you know, if he's not winning. except that it contradicts trump's recent calls for republicans to change their thinking on early and mail-in voting. and most importantly trump's renewal of attacks against mail-in voting contradict the republican party entire approach after surprise losses in 2020 and 2022. the party having come to terminals with the simple fact that it's much more beneficial to embrace mail-in voting rather than deter their own voters from using it.

joining us now voting rights attorney and founder of the site democracy dockett marc elias is here. molly is also back. marc, your reaction to that language from trump. >> it's no surprise. look, the key with donald trump is don't pay attention to what he says to the mainstream media. pay attention to what he says to his maga base. that's what he really means. the rnc can put talking points in front of him that say you know, please read this thing about mail-in voting. he probably barely understands what he's reading. but when he speaks to his base, he is saying what he really believes. and it is having a profound consequence. here are two numbers for you. pew just did a poll that came out earlier this month that showed that only 28% of republicans believe there should be no excuse mail-in voting. it is the largest disparity on the question of voting between the two parties. second thing, in the recent election we just saw on long island for new york -- the new york congressional district and then also in a special election in pennsylvania the gap between

mail-in voting and same-day voting was dramatic. in that pennsylvania special election for control of the state house 86% of people who voted by mail voted democratic. 86%. people are not paying attention to what donald trump is saying to his base. he's telling them not to vote by mail. he's telling the republican party and conservatives to sue, to attack vote by mail, which they're doing in courtrooms around the country. and that's where we're going to be between now and november. >> it's just also so amazing to me, marc, that republicans are doing some pretty basic math and saying to themselves, we're not benefiting from telling our own voters not to pursue this way to vote. it's almost as if their losses are forcing them to rethink their own suppression strategies because what they have succeeded in doing in part is suppressing their own vote. >> yeah. look, i think there are two republican parties on a lot of

issues. >> fair. >> there is the republican party that says vladimir putin killing navalny was an episode of evil. and then there's the republican party that is donald trump saying he, donald trump, is the victim. there is the republican party that says that, you know, we need to make a deal on border in order to fund ukraine and then there's donald trump who tells them don't make a deal. and the same is true in these other areas. there is the republican party that says perhaps you shouldn't keep slandering and defaming jean carroll, but donald trump does it anyway. and finally on voting there is the republican party that is begging him, please, stop badmouthing vote by mail. but donald trump is the man of his destiny, and he is continuing to do it. but here's the key, alicia. the first republican party that i mentioned, they are cowards. they are cowards.

they will not say those things, any of those things when it means contradicting donald trump. >> right. because then you'd actually have to, one, not fear donald trump. you'd also have to believe, molly, that you have a message that you can sell to voters. they want to tell them about the economy, how bd the economy was, now the economy's in a good place. they want to run on immigration, now they bungled that. they don't have anything to run on, so it has to be on the systems and the structure. >> i also think telling your people not to vote is a mistake. and in new york state we saw there was a snowstorm. so there was tons of early voting. it was a week-long early voting, mail-in voting, and then the day of the voting there was like this snowstorm. and yes, it melted by 2:00. but a lot of people sort of missed the window to vote. and that's the fundamental reason people in the democratic party have been get out there, do early voting, do mail-in voting, because election day is not a holiday. it's not on the weekend, which i wish it were because it would mean more people could vote. and some people can't take days

off their job. ultimately the fact that republicans have been so against giving people the right to vote, because they know they don't have the numbers. >> it's almost amazing -- go ahead. >> in that new york situation, i just have to jump in here. in that new york situation the republican party of new york sued to try to block vote by mail. my law firm jumped in on behalf of the democratic congressional campaign committee. who was the lead plaintiff in that case? it was elise stefanik. so it's not just donald trump out there saying crazy things. they are putting their money behind lawsuits to try to prevent vote by mail in new york, and the leading republican in the state is their named plaintiff. >> it's additionally wild, marc, because i'm listening to some of the things molly's saying we've been talking about in pro-democracy circles for the last 15 years, the possibility of making election day a holiday, the possibility of making it easier to vote in any

number of ways, and instead we're having this very retro conversation inspired by republicans about how to keep people out. to layer onto that i want to play you something. one of trump's wisconsin fake electors said this weekend about trump wanting to throw out mail-in votes. watch. >> the trump campaign wanted the votes in dane county and milwaukee county tossed. did you support that idea? >> it wasn't something that i was comfortable with. >> personally you did not believe all those absentee ballots should be thrown out? >> well, i voted that way. you know. i voted that way. >> you didn't think your own vote should be thrown out? >> no. >> i mean, the chef's kiss there. pretty incredible, marc, that even trump's fake electors, they voted by mail. >> yeah. look, the republican party only has two flavors. there is bold maga and scared maga. they all act like bold maga in public but a lot of them are just scared maga. they are afraid of donald trump. they're afraid of his base. and the net result, though, for voters is the same.

whether that man meant to or not, whether he in his heart of hearts believed it or not, the result was the same. which is that i wound up having to go to court to prevent donald trump from throwing those ballots out. i had the honor of representing president biden and the dnc in that case. but it was a hair's whisker from the results winding up the other way, and it was no thanks to a single republican in the state. neither the bold maga nor the scared maga were willing to stand up to him. >> two flavors. not interested in either. marc elias, molly jong-fast, thank you both so much for spending some time with us. coming up, why one prominent anti-abortion activist is telling the pro-life movement, quote, keep their mouth shut until after the election. what donald trump and the gop might have planned after election day. that is next. ed after election day that is next leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire

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did you sign federal legislation that would ban abortion at 15 weeks? >> what's going to happen is you're going to come up with a number of weeks or months. you're going to come up with a number that's going to make people happy. i would sit down with both sides and i'd negotiate something, and we'll end up with peace on that issue for the first time in 52 years. >> okay. that was donald trump back in september talking to nbc's kristen welker, claiming he had a big plan to bring america together on abortion. now, "the new york times" reports that what trump has in mind is nothing short of a national abortion ban, the kind

that voters have been saying very loudly, very clearly they do not want in every single election since roe was overturned. the "times" writing, "former president donald j. trump has kes the idea of a 16-week hat he national abortion ban with three exceptions, in cases of rape or incest or save the life of the mother. that is according to two people familiar with direct knowledge of mr. trump's deliberations." this would dramatically curb access for women in blue states who up until now have been spared the post-dobbs horror stories and would do nothing to help women in dire health crises like kate cox, amanda zurawski, brittany watts, jennifer atkins, countless others whose stories we haven't heard. there's also no guarantee that trump and his allies would stop at a 16-week national ban. one day after the "times" report bd trump's plans they reported this. allies of former president trump and officials who served in his administration are planning ways to restrict abortion rights if he returns to power that would go far beyond proposals for a national ban or the laws enacted in conservative states across

the country. joining our conversation, president and ceo of reproductive freedom for all, minnie timmaraju, and president and ceo of the national women's law center, fatima goss graves. it is good to see you both. minnie, tell me what it is we're actually looking at. what's at stake here? >> everything's at stake. that story in the "new york times," the second one by lisa lehrer, was shocking in that you had trump's attorney jonathan mitchell, who's the architect of some of the most extreme bans in this country, basically saying i'm not sure donald trump even understands what's in some of this language but we just need the pro-life movement to shut up so we can go ahead and further our plan. why is this terrifying? these are the folks that trump's listening to. these are the folks that were embedded in this entire administration. and they are incredibly terrifyingly confident they're going to be able to push forward something really horrific, which is an abortion ban, a national abortion ban, with or without

congress. a 16-week ban is terrifying, yes. will we be able to beat them back? yes. but going without congress is an entirely different story entirely. >> there are lots of chilling lines in the times report bug this one stood out to our team. one thing trump likes about a 16-week ban on federal abortionsize it's a round number. you know what i like about 16, mr. trump told one of his people who was given am nichlty to describe the private conversation, it's evening, it's four months. he's bringing about as much expertise and thoughtfulness to a critical decision that will affect millions of people, will upend women's lives, the way -- as one of our team members said, a kindergartner decides their favorite number on the playground. he is not being serious about this, mini. >> he's not. but here's what's really important. the people around him, they are. these are lifers. these are folks who have been fronting this movement for decades. they know what they're doing. he has wrapped himself around them. and he will do their bidding.

that's what we have to remember. >> let's talk, fatima about the comstock act. this is to protect women's health care access. "i hope trump doesn't know about the existence of comstock because i don't want him to shoot off his mouth," that's jonathan mitchell the legal force behind a 2021 texas law that found a way to effectively ban abortion in the state before roe vs. wade was overturned. he said i think the pro life groups should keep their mouth shut as much as possible until the election. i just wonder how much of anti-abortion activists' plans involve what is essentially deceiving voters. >> listen, we should take the plans to revive the comstock very, very seriously. for those who don't know what it is, it's a 19th century law that made it a federal crime to send obscene material in the mail. so that would include things like birth control. that would include things like abortion medication. and so what they see as creativity here is going to have a real effect on people's lives.

this isn't going to be about allowing each state to decide. this is going to be about controlling our reproductive futures and freedoms from every corner in this country. and it is deeply unpopular. that is why these are all closed-door conversations. that is why this is happening in the dark with the hope that he will be there moving forward and people will look up and not have any access to the care they need in this country. >> well, to put just a fine point on that, fatima, devastating news out of alabama late last week. the alabama political reporter writing, "the alabama supreme court on friday declared that frozen embryos are children entitled to the same legal rights as other unborn children. the lone dissenting justice wrote the main opinions holding almost certainly the creation of frozen embryos through in vitro fertilization," which we all know as ivf, in alabama. so lots of questions forever you, fatima. what does that mean for people living in alabama? do you think this is going to inspire copycat legislation

attacking ivf in other states? >> so in alabama i think this decision would make it all but certain that ivf would no longer be available in the state. and i think alabama being the first will not be the last state because what we have seen since dobbs is states racing to beat each other with how extreme they can be. the other thing i want to name about this decision was that it is riddled with references to religion. so rather than saying science or citing, you know, case law, they are citing religious texts. and that sort of extreme approach puts their plan and aim front and center, but it is something that should be deeply worrying to everyone, whether they live in alabama or not. >> well, here's the thing, mini. i just want to play this out politically speaking because i think that there are people for whom this is a deeply motivating issue on either side of it.

there are single issue voters around this question. then there are folks who think this isn't going to apply to me, whatever happens around reproductive choice somehow it doesn't affect me. you and i can have that debate separately. when you start introducing something like ivf into the conversation, it's already a political loser, but it would seem to me to expand the universe of people who are suddenly saying wait, what are you doing? and how could that apply to me, to my life, to my choices? >> it's not just ivf. personhood theory also applies to emergency contraception. it applies to contraception. there's a whole slippery slope here. and it's intentional. it's by design. these same extremists who are behind things like abortion bans, sp-8, the mifepristone case-r behind these attempts. this is really important. again, these are the same folks who were in donald trump's administration and will be in donald trump's future administration. this is why at the end of the

day this is a really important political opportunity and argument to make to folks in blue states. if you're in a blue state and you think you're immune from abortion bans or none of this applies to you, think again. not only could these things radically impact your ability to make a range of reproductive health care choices, they could impact you in a state where you think you just voted for a constitutional protection. so it's all about the election. it's time to really zero in. it's going to be biden versus trump. and we know who we've got to get behind. joe biden. >> i just can't believe that he likes it because it's a nice round number. of all of the inane explanations i have been given. mini timmaraju, fatima goss graves, thank you both so much for spending some time with us. up next, how last week's devastating ruling by new york judge arthur engoron is just the start of a slow motion financial disaster for the ex-president. al disaster for the ex-president. with non-melanoma skin cancer. 40 years later, i've had almost 20 mohs surgeries. i had just accepted that the pain

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donald trump could appeal judge engoron's ruling on friday that the ex-president must pay a whopping $355 million in penalty any day now. but as msnbc columnist today points out that, before he can appeal the verdict trump will have to post a bond or assets that could tally close to $400 million, equal to the verdict plus 9% post-judgment interest. this assures that if trump loses the appeal the state of new york will collect the money. trump has already turned to his supporters for more money following this verdict but with legal liabilities approaching

half a billion dollars and a presidential campaign do lunn it's hard to see how the ex-president can fund-raise himself out of this. let's bring in our friend msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. lisa, talk us through what we can expect with this appeals process. >> so alicia, donald trump has 30 days to file what's called a notice of appeal. and during that period of time, as you noted, he also will have to post an undertaking, which is usually equivalent to the entirety of the judgment and sometimes in new york state even more than that, 120% of it. the place where i think i diverge from the columnist that you cited in your opening is i believe that donald trump will owe more than $400 million, and the reason is because the amount of the ruling that is attributable to him or companies that he controls plus the prejudgment interest on each of those amounts is already in excess of that $400 million.

then you add on to that that 9% statutory interest that continues to accrue until it's paid. and so we are talking about whopping sums of money and sums of money that even if you were to believe donald trump at his april 2023 deposition in the case, that he has more than $400 million on hand in cash, he would be wiped out by a combination of this verdict and the e. jean carroll ruling, where he also is going to owe money with respect to a bond or that undertaking relatively soon. >> let me read you a part of judge engoron's ruling that you are now very familiar with. and i want to know about how it could affect trump's appeal. "donald trump rarely responded to the questions asked and he frequently interjected long, irrelevant speeches on issues far beyond the scope of the trial. his refusal to answer the questions directly or in some cases at all severely compromised his credibility." does something like that, lisa, factor into the appeal? >> well, i mean, it certainly

factors into the appeal on the merits. and i've heard other commentators on our air say something with which i agree. this is a really thorough ruling that's not necessarily meant for public distillation. meaning it's not meant for lay readership. but what it is meant for is an appeals court because in determining all of the facts underlying his ruling judge engoron has thoroughly gone through each of the 40 witnesses that testified over 43 days at trial and in many cases made determinations about their credibility. and that is true especially of what he calls the defendant witnesses, that is donald trump, jeff mckonni, allen weisselberg and the and that is true especially of what he calls the defendant witnesses. that's donald trump, jeff mcconney, allen weisselberg, and then of course, the two

trump adult sons, don jr. and eric. in every one of those cases, he had something to say about the credibility that was not at all flattering. in some cases, noting, for example, in eric's case, where he had to double back on testimony that he had previously provided a deposition and completely reversed himself with confronted with documents. >> i think one of the reasons we find this so fascinating, both the potential takedown of his business empire, what that could mean for him, politically, it's just the fact that is usual strategy of delay, delay, delay, doesn't work in a civil case. so for those who feel that that tactic has allowed him to avoid accountability, it doesn't quite work the same way here, right? >> it does and it doesn't. so the new york state appeals process can be even slower than what we've come to expect in federal appeals courts. for example, after filing that notice of appeal, and appellate usually has six months to gather up the trial record and

file a number of things that are included in the definition of what's called perfecting an appeal. but you are right to say that because he has to post an undertaking equivalent to the judgment or the discouragement against him, plus all this interest, either he has to come up with that himself, he has to find an insurer who's willing to do business with him in his exchange for essentially a down payment plus some collateral, or he has to find a third party who's willing to do it. and whether or not he finds that third party, and there's the question of, is the identity of that third-party transparent to the american people? if our colleague rachel maddow has floated the very real policy -- possibility that an instrument of foreign power like a russian or oligarchy could be asked to flip that judgment for donald trump. if that happens, my sincere hope, although i can't confirm this, is that we would know the identity of that payer. >> lisa rubin, as always,

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a new poll of presidential experts released on this presidents'day weekend put the four times indicted, twice impeached former president dead last in 45th place. in the ranking of our best presidents. it is the second year in a row that he has received that honor. that means he ranks below william henry harrison, the man remembered for dying 31 days

into his term. trump is also ranked below james buchanan and franklin pierce, his legacies include bringing the country to the brink in the years before the civil war. meanwhile, president joe biden came in 14th, beating out woodrow wilson, ronald reagan, and you lists s grant, but not quite as high as his former boss, president obama, who came in seventh, with abraham lincoln, fdr, and george washington post in our top three by a healthy margin. we're gonna sneak in another break. i'll be right back. be right b s means everything to me. ask your gastroenterologist about skyrizi. ♪ control is everything to me ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save.

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