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good evening and welcome to a special defendant donald j. trump hour. i'm andrew weissman. >> i'm melissa murray. >> 34 criminal charges related to 2016 campaign scheme to purchase stormy daniels' silence to not talk about an alleged sexual encounter she had with trump shortly after his youngest child was born. with the pressure of the trial looming, donald trump has spent the past three days escalating his attacks on new york judge who will preside over the upcoming criminal trial. these new attacks aren't limited to judge mar shand but also includes the judge's daughter who trump attacked by name on social media yesterday. >> all of this is part of a pattern. donald trump's attacks on the

judge's family echo previous attacks he made against both the wife the law clerk of the judge in the civil fraud case against trump. now trump is under a gag order as he was in the new york civil case and d.c. january 6th criminal case. tonight, the district attorney's office has asked the court to quote, make abundantly clear the march 26th order protects family members of the court. the district attorney, and all other individuals mentioned in the order. furthermore, the court should warn defendant that his recent conduct is con they patience and he should stop. he should face sanctions end quote. the district attorney's office also went on to note that quote, potential trial witnesses and prospective jurors will likely fear having themselves and their family members be subject to similar attacks. this fear is not hypothetical. in the course of preparing for

trial. multiple potential witnesses have already expressed grave concerns to the people about their own safety and that of their family members should they appear as witnesses against defendant. end quote. >> donald trump's lawyers responded that any expansion of the gag order would be quote, an improper restriction on protected campaign speech. this afternoon, ostensibly as part of his campaign, donald trump posted on his social media site video of a truck that had a picture of president biden bound and gagged to appear as if he were being kidnapped in the cargo bed although we're not going to show that. this is all too reminiscent of trump crony roger stone. this is in addition to stone's references to special counsel

robert mueller as a quote hit man. unquote. >> we have nancy gertner. welcome judge. >> great to be on with you guys. >> thanks so much for being here. these attacks on the judiciary are obviously nothing new for donald trump. but what is new is that a number of federal judges have spoken out about these attacks on the judiciary and its i'll partiality. what do you make of those developments? is this welcome that the federal judiciary is speaking out or is this something that gives you pause? >> no, it's very welcome to me. this is not part of a civilized society of law and order. and it is -- it is about time that someone sort of called the question and said this is beyond the pale. what he is doing is beyond the pale. that at least now this is the third judge who understood that it's not about the usual

concerns, you know. about a fair trial. which is terribly important. and you know, intimidating potential jurors. this is about intimidating witnesses and court staff and basically undermining an orderly and regular trial. it's a good thing that federal judges have spoken out and it speaks to how extraordinary this is. how extraordinary a moment this. >> pivot to the gag order. as we just noted donald trump is saying that it should not be expanded to cover either the lead prosecutor or the judge or their family members. and saying this is actually part of campaign speech. i was wondering what your thoughts were about whether it would be appropriate. you have sat in the same position as these judges. they clearly have been reticent to go that extra step. but do you think it's time for them to do that so they themselves and their family members and the lead prosecutors are not subject to

this kind of threat? >> no. it's interesting. the other gag orders did not include the judge and didn't include the -- included the judge's staff but note the judge and had not been the prosecutor. i actually think it makes sense to extend this. and the notion that this is campaign speech, it says something about how bankrupt a campaign is when it has to be run not on policies and not on proposals but on attacking the judge and the cases against you. you both know that ordinary what happens is the lawyers will file a document in court. the lawyers can talk about that document. and can talk about the pleadings. but not attack. this is so outside -- outside the usual -- the usual course of events that i think it's -- that this should be extended. and i don't think -- i don't think that there would be an issue with respect to that. given trump's history here. i don't think that that would be a problem. >> so judge gertner, one other

question, we are used to grading student work product and sometimes we grade the work product of courts and their opinions. how would you grade the federal judiciary as it faces that moment that demands accountability but so far there's been very little? is the judiciary living up to its mission? >> well, boy, that's a complicated question and only a law professor could ask that question i want to just say. but i'll answer it nonetheless. you know, it's very interesting. all of the judges who have been involved in trump cases have bent over backwards to give him more due process, more procedure than any other defendant. and i think that's in part the reason why you see these kinds of delays. where courts have been bending over backwards to -- which is not inappropriate in the ordinary case. but it's almost as if you add up a column of figures here, of all of the procedures and all the deference that's been shown to this former president, and i think that you have a lack of

accountability because no no -- but for this case, no one is going to trial. the notion as trump suggests that he's being singled out and treated differently you know. perhaps it's true, he's being treated differently. he's being treated better than anybody. >> i was wondering with respect to what we learned today about the posting of a picture of the current president being bound and gagged and that appearing on trump's social media, is that the kind of thing that in ordinary course if this was just any other defendant. that there would be a -- in other words, remember, donald trump is out on bail in not one, but four criminal cases. at some point, is he going to be treated like anyone else and if you were sitting as an article 3 judge again, would that be a potential consequence? >> well, what everyone is pausing about is did we tell

him not to do it? and then is he violating a court order? what happens with trump is that he is violating norms that no one thought they even had to tell him not to do. so the picture of president biden, no one had to say don't -- you know, threaten the president of the united states as part of these proceedings. that's -- that's the problem. almost as if everybody's gag order has to be don't threaten anybody in public. but they haven't done that. but certainly with respect to the judge's daughter, i would bring him back to court. i would warn him -- i would if he violates it again, the way you'd have to staircase this. you'd have to say there'd be money damages. well that obviously doesn't make a difference if it happens again then there could be contempt and then there could be well jailing for it. but again this is my point about everyone is bending over backwards. the ordinary defendant may well

be in -- in jail already as a result of this conduct. but everyone is being careful only to have him sort of monitored in terms of what they have ordered him to do. i believe the judge in fact imposed money damages. money damages on him. but that obviously won't matter and i mean, i can't -- your presentation suggests this. i don't think the public understands exactly not only how unusual this is, but how frightening and troubling this is because if we can't have orderly trials, we can't have trials. >> now, that's a terrific point and again we're only a few years out from the shooting of judge esther salazar's son and husband at her son at home by someone who targeted them. it doesn't seem like there's a lot that can be done to deter this particular defendant. and indeed any other ordinary defendant would likely be in jail at this point.

has the justice system really done too much to give donald trump due process? i mean, is it time for him to be treated like any ordinary defendant here? >> yes. i know you want a more elaborate answer. but yes, it's about time for him to be treated like any other ordinary defendant. i mean, he has been allowed to play out a string which is sort of improper for a presidential candidate with any degree of dignity. but is certainly improper for a defendant in a criminal case. but the problem is i think every judge facing him would feel in any kind of high- profile case, but particularly this one, that the worst thing is to make him a martyr. which is precisely what he is inviting. i recall in one of these cases i believe it was judge end ron's case where he said if you continue you will be excluded from the case. and you know, trump was essentially -- you know, daring him to do that. if people are pausing before

they, you know, before they actually give him the most -- the ultimate sanction of putting him in prison for violating the terms of bail, it's because you don't want to make him a martyr. and because you want to be clear that this was conduct beyond the pale. but i think that that's the only reason they're hesitating. >> judge nancy gertner, you are the perfect leadoff person to talk to given what was going on today in the news. thank you so much. >> thank you. coming up next, more on new york criminal case against trump. >> he should be worried about me. he should be worried about the manhattan district attorney. the district attorney of new york prosecutors. he should be worried about the documentary evidence and he should be worried about all of the witnesses that are going to be coming in to that trial. simply because as others have also appropriately put it, this is a very simple case.

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michael cohen, trump's former fixer and district attorney alvin bragg's prime witness in the manhattan trial says the case against donald trump is quote unquote simple. well, that may be. but it is undeniable that one complicating factor in the manhattan criminal trial is michael cohen himself. some context is in order. recall the central role that michael cohen, known as lawyer a. in da bragg's indictmentplayed in the crimes of which donald trump is now accused. to get a flavor of this here's legendary actress glenn close reading from the indictment on the prosecuting donald trump podcast. >> on the hush money payments,

the defendant, coverage j. trump, repeatedly and fraudulently falsified new york business records to conceal criminal conduct that hid damaging information from the voting public during the 2016 presidential election. one component of his scheme was that at the defendant's request, a lawyer who then worked for the trump organization as special counsel to defendant. lawyer a., covertly paid $130,000 to an adult film actress shortly before the election to prevent her from publicizing a sexual encounter with the defendant. >> so michael cohen is currently on supervised release. that's a fancy term for probation and so after serving his prison sentence for campaign finance and other crimes he was put on supervised release. and he is the fellow of course who was working for donald trump as his lawyer and fixer.

well, last week, a federal judge denied cohen's request to end that probation early. and the judge said in telling words that michael cohen perjured himself either when he pleaded guilty in 2018 to a crime he now says he did not commit or perjured himself a few months ago when he testified at donald trump's civil fraud trial in new york. >> joining us now to discuss is faith gaye a former supervisor of the eastern district of new york and now a defense attorney and a founding partner. welcome, faith. >> thanks for having me. >> hi faith. nice to see you. so i know that you are a terrific former prosecutor. because we used to work together. you are also a terrific plaintiff's litigator and defense lawyer. so you are the perfect person to ask the question of. what are you going to be watching for on the 15th when

this trial starts for the judge in manhattan? >> so andrew, you are too kind to say all the wonderful things but i think look, with cohen, the huge issue is can he be consistent in the heart of this case? can he keep where he's been for really many years now with a consistent story on the hush money? he is going to be crossed every which way. he's going to be crossed as you just mentioned about judge furman's observations about his potential perjury. on the other hand, judge engoron said he was very much truthful. i think stay on point with his testimony about hush money i think we're in good shape in terms of government's case here. and that's true because as you and i well know, you cannot prove a criminal case with nuns or with boyscouts or other perfect citizens. michael is who we're stuck with. michael is who we're going to

hear from day and night here and again, if the key story which is set up well in the prosecutor's opening statements and during holds, i think at the end of the day, his testimony will carrythe day despite the harsh cross- examination he's going to get about the previous not so truthful testimony about his own involvement and his own view of his pleading guilty in federal court. >> so faith, you mentioned nuns and i can't help but notice that this is easter weekend. and that's usually the time when most of the networks play "the sound of music." so you have already alluded to this. but how do you solve a problem like michael cohen if you are da alvin bragg and so much of your case hangs on his physical and obviously as a witness he has lots that can be impeached? are you worried about this? what is the defense going to do and where are the places where they can attack michael cohen and really try to bring down his testimony. >> i think the first thing you do is you make certain, again,

during voir dire and picking the jury and how you do in opening statements that you don't set too high a bar for michael cohen to meet. you make sure the jury understands that he was in this crime too. you make sure that the jury understands that it's the only way to get a firsthand witness, firsthand observation is someone who has a very complicated situation. because they are a criminal as well. so i think you try to let the air out of the balloon of a perfect witness. because he will not be one. and i think you will suggest to the jury over and over again, before michael takes the stand, that he will tell a consistent story about the heart of this crime. no matter what you know, what's going on around him and no matter what attack happens over and over again i think we'll see on his credibility in terms of describing his guilty plea

and describabling other things the prosecutors must describe, michelle. a secondary. >> fite, one of the things that you referred to is voir dire that process of both sides getting to ask questions. and vetting the potential jurors. that obviously is going to be incredibly time consuming and difficult in a high-profile manner where you could have lots of jurors who on one hasn't hate donald trump and others who love him. what are you sort of concerned about if you are the prosecution, what are you concerned about if you are the defense counsel and how do you sort of deal with that? you know, what's unusual in a high-profile matter is you have jurors who want to be served most people want to get off the jury. but this is one where you may have people who actually want to sneak on. >> i think that's right. and i think there are a few clusters of issues that everyone here is going to watch out for. and i'm sure that the judge will as well. first of all, for the prosecution, you want to make sure you don't have people who

are already allergic to a criminal allegation that is -- sort of first in kind in some ways. that involves tricky election law interplay between state and federal election schemes. election requirements. you don't want to have someone who's overly concerned with, you know, technical defenses. but actually gets the heart of this crime. which is in essence that donald trump did not play fair. he put his finger on the scales and hid important information that may have changed the election. if you are on the defense side, i think you are quite concerned to make sure that people require -- jurors are sitting on this panel require enough from -- from each of the witnesses that they're on -- they're preconditioned already on the burden of proof. which of course favors the ex- president. and that they hold michael cohen, who really is the center

of this case, to a high standard. that they don't find that the upholstery around cohen, the documents, the match nations respect to very complicated attempts to hide these transactions, are enough for these jurors without cohen doing a very good job. >> lots to look for as the trial gets started in manhattan. faith gay, thank you so much for giving us the rundown. >> thanks for having me. coming up, a trump election lawyer faces being disbarred from practicing law after conspiring to obstruct a lawful function of the government of the united states. what we learned from the john eastman disbbarment hearing. does it make sense we've actually seen more accountability for lawyers than for former presidents? we'll talk about it up next. vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good.

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many americans are understandably frustrated that accountability for those who allegedly orchestrated the e vents of january 6th, 2021 has been elusive. well, there's one glimmer of accountability on the horizon. this week, a federal judge ruled that john eastman should bedisbarred in california. viewers will recall that eastman is alleged to have been one of the architects of the scheme to substitute states of fake electors. in relation to that scheme.

in a scathing 128 page opinion, judge yvette rowland rebuked eastman for knowingly asserting false claims about voter fraud, misrepresenting the law in order to pressure vice president mike pence to reject the vote certification, and conspiring quote, with president trump to obstruct a lawful function of the government of the united states. specifically by conspiring todisrupt the count on january 6th, 2021. eastman exhibited gross negligence by making false statements about the election without conducting any meaningful investigation or verification of the information he was relying upon. the evidence presented demonstrates that eastman despite claiming sincere belief deliberately propagated false claims about the 2020 presidential election thereby breaching his ethical duty as an attorney to prioritize honesty and integrity. end quote. >> so john eastman says he will appeal the ruling. but as of now, he cannot practice law in california.

but he's not the only trump lawyer in trouble with the bar. a disbarment hearing is currently under way in washington, d.c. for jeffrey clark. the disgraced former doj official who donald trump appears to have installed as the acting attorney general for part of the day on january 3rd, 2021. and furtherance of trump's alleged efforts to stop the peaceful transfer of power to president-elect joe biden. and that's not all. rudy giuliani, jenna ellis and sydney powell and others all face similar bar license consequences. >> laga making attorneys get attorneys. joining us now to discuss is kyle cheney senior legal affairs reporter at politico. and mary mccord forming acting assistant attorney general at the justice department. >> also the co-host of a wonderful podcast prosecuting donald trump and she is at msnbc legal analyst. welcome. >> so mary, kyle, it seems like the only accountability we're going to get for some of these

other people who were in the trump world and allegedly orchestrated some of these election interference schemes is going to be through these professional disbarment procedures. what can we learn from these procedures and what are the kinds of findings that the judges are making here and what can they tell the american public about the events of january 6th and those who are alleged to have been responsible for them? >> well, you know, they don't have the fanfare of the criminal cases and the criminal trials we've been anticipating. but you know, in a way, these are the trials of what happened leading up to january 6th. the trial of donald trump's attempt to overturn the election. there's some -- there's some granular testimony happing in some of these cases where you are seeing people, you know, john eastman, for example, he spent over months of testimony putting his theories through the wringer constitutionally testing them and testing his claims of fraud. down to the very specific

minutia of them and really picking them apart and the judge and her -- you know, lengthy ruling, looked at them and said what you said here in pennsylvania was false. this piece of information youry lied on in georgia was -- you should have known better than to rely on it because it was flimsy. you know, and one after the other and in some ways you are getting a breakdown and a retelling of the story of what happened that we may not see in the criminal cases. that's still up in the air. >> mary, i wonder if you could tell us something more about the findings that were actually made. one of the things that i was struck by was that the findings were made by a sort of fairly high legal standard in the law. and also that they were not limited to mr. eastman. what did you make of all that? >> that's right. so of course in a criminal trial the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. and here, the judge -- used a standard of clear and convincing evidence. so for each of the charges against mr. eastman, she reviewed the evidence that had

been submitted throughout the course of the trial. and assessed whether the -- the basically the prosecuting entity, the disciplinary counsel in california had established by clear and convincing evidence that mr. eastman had violated these various rules of professional responsibility. things including dishonesty, misleading the court, misrepresentations. and the -- and the judge and i think this goes to kyle's point, i mean, it was very elaborate scope of the evidence and a very elaborate ruling going through, for example, misrepresentations about fraud that were alleged in litigation in georgia, in pennsylvania, in michigan. right? that things that mr. eastman was willing to, as an attorney for donald trump, include in that litigation. are things that he either knew were false or could not

substantiate. things like evidence of fraud that was significant enough to change the outcome. right? and he -- you know, essentially had to admit that he never really had evidence of fraud that would ever have been significant enough to change the outcome. other important things that we talked a lot about on the podcast andrew, the fraudulent electors scheme. the judge found that he knew notwithstanding the advice he was giving, for example, that vice president pence could, on his own, decide that he was not going to count the ballots from the swing states where there were dualing states of electors. or that he could count the fraudulent states of electors as opposed to the legitimate slates of electors or decide to delay the whole thing. that was the advice that he was giving to mr. pence and to mr. trump. and he -- and the judge found you knew that was wrong. you knew that was not substantialed legally or

through history. so the judge really went back and forth and also said you are not protected here by the first amendment. because you are a lawyer and subject to regulations that the courts have upheld and means you have -- you can have some restrictions on your speech and also speaks to your point i think andrew, speech when you are actually using your speech as a tool to commit a crime. the conspiracies that kyle was just talking about and that you and melissa were talking about. then your speech is not protected. so it's a very, very detailed ruling by the judge. >> so kyle, what's up next? we know that john eastman plans to appeal this decision. what does the process look like and if he is ultimately disbarred, what are his professional prospects? i mean, are we as law professors going to have to welcome this former law professor and dean back into the fold to teach constitutional law? >> i mean, look. disbarment is i think by design a very slow and sometimes painfully slow process. because as you point out, you

are taking away someone's livelihood if they are permanently disbarred. and rudy giuliani, he was -- suspended from practicing law, you know, more than a year ago in washington, d.c. but his permanent disbarment decision is still ending and it takes a long time again by design. eastman gets to appeal to a review panel of other judges. and then he gets to go again to the california supreme court if he -- if he's unhappy with that ruling. so there's still a few more levels here for him and for some of the other people who are facing similar processes. >> kyle cheney, mary mccord, kyle you didn't say anything about his return to the academy like not even a prospect to contemplate. many thanks to you for joining us tonight to lay all this out. >> mary, i'll see you on the pod. coming up, i have a lot of questions to ask my co-anchor and co-author about the supreme court ahead of the immunity hearing on april 25th. that's next. being me. keep being you...

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former vice chair of the january 6th committee liz cheney is urging the supreme court to promptly resolve dr.'s claims he is immune from criminal prosecution in his d.c. federal election interference case which right now is indefinitely delayed pending the supreme court hearing his appeal on april 25th. >> i trust that they will deal

in a responsible and expeditious fashion with this appeal. and but recognize that taking action that will result in further delay in preventing the american people from seeing that evidence in open court is, itself suppression of the evidence. the american people have a right to see that evidence and the court ought to recognize that. >> donald trump is certainly not acting like any person who seeks to have the day in court to clear liz name. rather he wants to avoid any trial before the general election because if he wins, he could simply get rid of the d.c. and florida criminal cases with basically a wave of his hand. he could direct the justice department to simply move to drop the cases against him. but special counsel jack smith can push the supreme court for a quick decision in his effort to have a trial before the 2024

election. the public has a right to a speedy trial as none other than justice samuel alito wrote in a unanimous supreme court decision. the court is recognizing the public's interest in promptly holding those charged with criminal conduct to account. when a defendant like donald trump seeks to delay a trial until a point he can no longer be prosecuted in this case the election, the justice department has every legitimate interest in seeking to have a trial before it is too late. the justice department has an interest in deterring donald trump from committing offenses in the future and anyone else who might do the same thing. and remember, all that smith wants is his day in court. which means trump will also have his day in court and the government will have to meet the highest burden we have in the law for holding someone to account. that is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. now particularly where trump has made the battle cry of it's

a witch hunt, a bludgeon against the legal system, the courts should be welcoming a trial where that accusation can be put to the test. so donald trump's d.c. trial may, so far, be delayed. but it remains a question whether the supreme court will be responsive. melissa, you -- studied the supreme court. you are a constitutional law scholar. >> i have been shaking my head the whole time here. >> yeah. okay. so too rosy. what do you think in terms of when you think about the argument that we're going to see on the 25th of april? putting it in context of sort of a wide angle lens of having looked a t the supreme court and the makeup of the supreme court. how do you think about it andhow should we be thinking about it. >> one, jack smith is not a superhero. the idea he has all kinds of levels he can pull with the

court to get them so speed up the trial. that's not the case. he has nothing beyond his advocacy in the april 25th hearing in order to move this forward and again to prevail the supreme court, you need five votes. and this is a conservative 6-3 supermajority and there's a lot going on here. you are right. i do think about the court in a broader context and you know, zoom out. like there's -- this is a big term for court even leaving aside these trump cases. disqualification and immunity issue. leaving that to the side, the court had enormous cases about the future of the administrative state and administrative agencies. there are a number of cases about the post-dobbs cases. the availability of mifepristone. in the entire docket for the term to understand what might be going on with regard to the trump cases. so we saw in that oral argument in the abortion case, and again, just hold on with me for

a minute i know abortion is nothing to do with donald trump -- >> i'm with you professor. >> just hold on. professor. the court seemed very much to be of the view that the litigants, the plaintiffs there, did not have standings so it seems very likely the court is going to throw this case out on standing grounds. like this does not belong in federal court at this time. and i think that is likely, you know, an outcome that the whole court can get down with. because they don't want more women going to the polls talking about abortion. as we go into the november 2024 election. it was disastrous in 2022. >> that's sort of taking it as a cynical view. like -- >> it's a cynical view but it's probably right. the court is not going to do that. punt this case and there will be another mifepristone case down in the future. >> 2.0. >> different litigants and after the election but the fact that the court is going to punt this is going to make the court look moderate and lots of news people will say, this is the court being restrained and this

is the court being moderate. but it's only moderate because the court is actually moved so far to the right on so many questions. and when it moves to the right, it's not just going to be on cases like abortion. it's going to be on thinks like donald trump. the court is as you said left this question until april 25th. unless they decide what donald trump's immunity issue is on april 26th they basically immunized him in a de factoway by delaying this. even if they come out in june with a decision and the only decision they can come out with lawfully is that he's not immunized from criminal liability entirely. if they come out with that in june it's not going to matter. this is not going to trial. just looking moderate when in fact the court is probably -- the most antidemocracy element in our entire system of government right now. >> so what i'm hearing is mifepristone, it's like they might -- punt it now but basically to look moderate now

and to have the effect on the election they want but to leave a disastrous decision to later. and on immunity, they can write flowery language. >> they will. and they will. >> presidents and they're not above the law. but respect to this former president, the de facto are making him above the law. >> they should be making this such a huge issue in the election itself. >> a really good take for people. if you take it from professor murray which is the court is on the ballot. coming up, why judge eileen cannon made the upcoming tuesday a day to watch in the criminal classified documents case against donald trump. that's next. et the traveling t. the thrill seeker. the soul searcher. and - ahoy! it's the explorer! each helping to protect their money with chase. woah, a lost card isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe. the soul searcher, is finding his identity, and helping to protect it. hey!

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tuesday, april 2nd is the deadline for jack smith's team and donald trump's lawyers to respond to judge eileen cannon's request for proposed jury instructions in the criminal case against donald trump for illegal documents and other materials. but what makes tuesday really newsworthy is the order the judge issued on march 18th. where she revealed that she is considering issuing the following jury instruction. a president has sole authority under the presidential records act to categorize records as personal or presidential during his or her presidency and

outgoing president's decision to exclude what he or she considers to be personal records from presidential records transmitted to the national archives and records administration constitutes a president's categorization of those records as personal. under the presidential records act. >> well -- [ laughter ] judge cannon has given the parties two options and the problem, melissa, is both options are legally wrong. both of them are predicated on the presidential records act and that is a civil statute. not a criminal statute. which is what is charged here. so let's bring in an expert, joyce vance, former u.s. attorney and before that a former chief of the appellate division and knows everything one side and down the other with respect to the 11th circuit which covers florida she's a professor at the university of alabama school of law. and she is the co-host of the really terrific sisters-in-law podcast.

welcome. >> this proposed jury instruction is i think the legal term is bonkers. is this the moment where jack smith really has to consider asking for judge cannon to be recused from this case? >> you know, there have been so many moments. but i think this is the last clear chance to prevent a judge who's demonstrated she can't handle this case properly to prevent her from taking steps that we just end the prosecution without giving the evidence a full hearing and letting a jury decide the facts. y'all have done a great job of setting this up. this is a judge who refused to rule on trump's motion to dismiss the case because of the presidential records act but now given us reason to believe that she is, in fact, accepting that defense. and that she will impose it on the case as a matter of law if it goes the trial. and you know, bear with me on all of the legal mumbo jumbo here. there are couple of steps but once a jury is in the box,

hearing a case, once they've been sworn in, if a judge dismisses a case at that point the government doesn't get to appeal. double jeopardy would prevent the government from trying to case a second time. and so eileen cannon who all along we've been concerned she would delay the case and never let it go to trial and that's a very real worry, at the same time, we have to be concerned that if this case does go to trial, judge cannon will then take it away from the jury. and will dismiss the charges against donald trump and that will be the end of the classified documents case. >> so joyce, hearing you correctly, if this is something that happens after the jury is sworn, and the trial starts, that that is -- that operates as an acquittal and basically the government has no recourse. they can't appeal that. it's over. >> yeah. that's absolutely right andrew. as you know, there's an exception here. the exception is if the jury

renders verdict of guilty and then the judge dismiss the case against the defendant, the government does have the ability to appeal. but that's completely in judge canyon's hands and if she decides to dismiss the case before the jury renders a verdict, the case is over. >> so joyce, one of the things that's interesting is you know, the issue of sort of when to do this. and i think, you know, we've talked a lot about this. and your thinking may have evolved on it. why do you think now is the moment that jack smith just has to take an action here to avoid the consequence you just talked about? >> i thought jack smith should have done it as soon as she drew the case. i understand the hesitation. the government's lawyer, you don't want to appear to have bias against the judge. nonetheless, i thought she had given him plenty of reason to do it. at this point, i think he has

no choice. because if he does not ask the 11th circuit to recuse her, she could, for instance, set the case for trial pretty quickly. the time to do it is now. >> joyce vance, perfect person to have -- to talk about what should happen in florida. thank you so much. good night. >> night y'all. we await the first criminal trial of the former u.s. president. do reading. raid all the charges against donald trump for yourselves and make your own decisions and we put all of this together and all of the indictments in the new book with the the trump indictments the historic charging documents with commentary and including helpful notes on the law as well as the many different players involved. >> thanks for joining us for this hour. good night. good night. on this new hour, the threat donald trump poses to world democracy and the man meeting behind-the-scenes with far right world leaders, in trump's name. also toni