they find him sort of appealing. in wisconsin you'll remember that the governor got re-elected basically running as a sort of biden-type. right? he said i got re-elected for sort of being a boring white guy. an old white guy. i think that reads well for whatever reason. he happens to push a lot of really coup progressive legislation and yesterday was with bernie sanders you know, bragging about lowering the cost of inhalers. i think that's a pretty good look. >> molly, reading your last article for "vanity fair" about trump's track record of poor picks in congressional races's check that out. thank you for joining us this morning and thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. >> -- i don't know what will happen now. we have some difficulties ahead. but it really doesn't matter with me now, because i've been to the mountain top.

>> yes! [ cheers ] >> i don't mind. >> yes! >> like anybody i would like to live a long life, longevity has its place. but i'm not concerned about that now. i just want to do god's will! and he's allowed me to go up to the mountain. and i've looked over, and i've seen the promised land! i may not get there with you, but i want you to know tonight that we as a people will get to the promised land! [ cheers and applause ] >> go ahead, go ahead! >> so i'm happy tonight, i'm not worried about anything. i'm not fearing any man! mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the lord!

>> that was martin luther king jr. in memphis, tennessee. the night before he was assassinated. today marks 56 years since his death. we're going to have reverend al join us this morning to talk about that extraordinary moment our nation's history -- willie, it's just -- such an extraordinary speech on so many levels. it was april 3rd, 1968. it was raining outside. martin luther king was supposed to go deliver the sermon. he was too exhausted. i believe it was ralph abernathy who came back and said, martin, you've got to go. martin, you've got to go, and -- he went, and he delivered one of the most prophetic speeches in american history.

foreseeing his own death the next day, understanding the challenges, and like moses, the old testament, taken to the top of the mountain to see the promised land, but knowing that he would never get there himself. despite the long march of his people to that point. and to -- you know, that speech coming april 3rd, 1968, right before his passing. you know, it's a march on washington in 1963 that led to the passing of the civil rights act, and the voting rights act, and in '64 and '65, which enshrined for the first time in our, in our constitution, in our nation's laws, part of the promises made going back to

1776. and we have come a long way in many, many areas. a black president, a black vice president. a black justices of the supreme court. black ceos, and yet, willie, sadly, there are many of us, and i'll include myself, who believe that the moral arc of the universe did bend upward and continued to bernd upward. we've had a bit of a flattening out over the past five, six, seven, eight years. an anger. a pushing back on some of the very recent gains made by black americans and people of color, and that's in large part what this election is about. whether we continue to move towards being that more perfect union, the martin luther king jr., that he envisioned that

night in memphis. or whether we go backwards to the '50s. to the '40s. to a time of two americas. a divided america. a segregated america. and an america at war with itself. >> yeah'sa lot of that grievance for which donald trump has been a vessel for almost a decade now, exactly what you're saying. which is the progress that this country has made. a little too fast for some people in this country. they feel maybe they've been left behind or perhaps now they're the ones not getting the fair shake and donald trump has tapped into that, but, man. listen to that speech, mike barnicle. every time you hear it, sends chills up your spine. delivery alone. substance alobe and also the context that would come the next day when martin luther king was shot and killed on the balcony of the moraine motel in memphis. there to walk alongside striking sanitation workers in memphis. some of whom were living in squalor. he gave them hope, and he was killed that day on april 4th,

1968 in a day that, you know, you were -- you were covering the news, the day that shook the country, and whose echoes are still felt today. >> i was in washington, d.c. the night that martin luther king was murdered. i was in washington, d.c. the same night when, after he died, and robert f. kennedy was in indianapolis giving another incredible speech in indianapolis about the assassination. soon washington, d.c. was in flames along with a lot of other major cities in the country. the country seemed fractured. the republic seemed shaky. were we going to hold? it did hold. it held then. it held throughout the year. and it has held ever since, and i believe hope is still alive, that it will continue to hold. despite the fractures in this nation that joe just described. >> mm. >> yeah. we believe that. this is a tweet from martin

luther king iii. wrote it yesterday. tomorrow is the anniversary of my dad's assassination. two the world he was monumental a titan of justice, but to me he was a dad. center of our home and family. the world lost an incredible leader. we lost a loving father. yolanda lost the chance to meet her grandfather. >> mm. >> talking more about -- >> coming out. >> -- martin luther king with reverend al and legacy today and the battle ahead. >> it's also anniversary of another consequence of day in history. 75 years ago today the north atlantic treaty, nato, was signed in washington. we'll discuss the significance of the alliance amid the war in ukraine which is nearing 800 years and counting and the man who used too lady that.vridis i.

and without chief at politico, jonathan lemire and u.s. correspondent for bbc news caty kaye. our top story amid growing tensioning over the war in gaza, republican and israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu are expected to speak by phone today. this will be their further direct communication since the israeli airstrike that killed seven world central kitchen workers. earlier this week biden expressed some of his strongest criticism of israel to date saying he was outraged and heartbroken by those deaths. biden and netanyahu last spoke on march 18th when the president warned the prime minister against carrying out a military offensive in the southern city of rafah. meanwhile, world central kitchen founder jose andres is calling for an investigation into what he says was a deliberate attack

on his organization's workers. speaking on-camera yesterday for the first time since the airstrike, andres says the israeli government's claim that the blast was accidental -- >> was rejected. >> he rejected that. >> they were a target, systematically car by car, because they were not successful in hitting, they keep trying. this happened over more than 1.5, 1.8 kilometers. so this was not used a bad luck situation where. oops, we dropped the bomb in the wrong place or not. every country obviously, the nationals, including the united states, that had nationals that die on this attack we need to have an investigation that is neutral. humanitarians and civilians should never be paying the consequences of war. this is a basic principle of

humanity. at the time this looks like it's not a war against the region anymore. it is a war against humanity itself. >> you know, so many investigations that need to be done. so many investigations that are being put off. so many investigations, you know, why are you tracking these trucks from an organization that you know is delivering tons of food of aid to gaza, to bring desperately needed aid to gaza? why were they tracking them? why did they fire on them? they were clearly marked. after all, this is the same idea, this is the same netanyahu government that was bragging about their pinpoint precision. >> mm. >> and being able to kill iranian leaders. just a few days ago. and here, with pinpoint precision, with -- with their logos on the top of these vans, for the world central kitchen,

missiles are delivered through the middle of those vans? and they're targeted? i mean -- my god. and so many investigations coming after the war's over, we're told, benjamin netanyahu says. >> now is not the time. >> about those hostages. now is not the time. the hostages who escaped, who took their shirts off, who raised their hands after escaping from the horror of being a hamas hostage, and the idf with their hands in the air, with their shirts off, idf guns them down? oh, that's an investigation we have to worry about later, too. and then netanyahu knowing for a year beforehand of hamas' plans? they had the plans in hand in the government doing absolutely nothing about it. doing absolutely nothing about the elicit funding that trump and netanyahu knew about in

2018. the funding sources that kept hamas' war machine alive. they looked the other way. they said, don't worry about it. of course, as i've said on this show, and -- and yet for some reason netanyahu's still not having to answer for this. i've said repeatedly. netanyahu send a representative up to doha three weeks before the attack on september 7th. the leaders of qatar said, do you still want us to keep sending all of this money to hamas? the answer, yes. of course we do. netanyahu was the chief sponsor of hamas through qatar. it was netanyahu that was keeping the money flowing there. whoa. but -- we can't investigate that until after the war's over. we can't do anything until after

the war's over. we can't -- we can't ask any questions about why benjamin netanyahu set up a situation where hamas had the weapons, the powers, the means, to basically walk -- walk -- into israel. walk into israel, and assault the idf? and the famed, the famed israeli defense forces with mopeds, drugged up paragliders and benjamin netanyahu did nothing for hours while israeli women were beaten and raped and killed? and grandmothers were beaten and burned to death. babies were shot in their cribs. parents had to watch these -- these terrorists, like to call

them something else. these terrorists, i could call them something else, terrorists shoot their children in front of them and children were forced to watch as these terrorists shot their parents in front of them! one hour goes by, netanyahu's government does nothing. two hours. nothing. three, four, the rapes continue. five hours. six hours -- nothing. seven hours. eight hours -- ten hours. some, some places 12, 13 hours. nothing is done. what happened that day? how in the -- how in the hell did benjamin netanyahu's government allow that to happen? you can't ask those questions. we're fighting a war -- why would you allow this man to continue running your country when he is responsible? >> i think they're asking that question. a lot of israelis. >> when he is responsible for 0

hamas being one, loose in israel and commit the worst atrocities against jews since the holocaust. we know the nature of hamas. we know their stated goal has always been to kill jews, to destroy israel. yet netanyahu was funding them. netanyahu had their war plans. netanyahu did nothing. netanyahu -- he was asleep at the switch when this happened. i mean, hamas, it's like scorpions. you had a nanny put scorpions in your baby's crib, and say, well, you know, it's a tough time right now. the baby's in the hospital. we better keep the same nanny until the -- no! in this case, the man who is

almost singularly responsible for letting israel's guard down, because he was too interested in fighting the rule of law in israel. he was too interested in dividing one israeli against the other. he was too busy tending to the needs of religious extremists so much so that he kind of forgot to take care of the secular elements of the idf. hand them aside and the intel services that had kept israel safe since 1948. how long? how long? let's brinin the admiral. i want to know how long, i believe, it is my belief and if i am wrong, please, push back, the damage, the harm that

benjamin netanyahu is inflicting on israel, that he's already inflicted on israel, that he will inflict on israel for years to come, because of his behavior since and before october the 7th? seems to me it's so massive that we're going to have to leave it to historians in future generations to sum it up, but i'm just wondering. how long does this continue? the hell that we're seeing play out in israel and gaza? >> let's start with the political. i think that the clock is indeed ticking on benjamin netanyahu for all the reasons you articulate. no democracy can tolerate that it kind of incompetence on display again and again and again. that clock is ticking. and i think we're going to hear from the center of israeli politics, the center left of israeli politics, and they're

going to demand answers, appropriately, to the questions you just posed, and i would, indeed, associate myself very strongly with all of that. i'll add that the, in the center of that cabinet is former general leader of the israeli defense forces benny gantz, who is someone i worked with consistently during the four years i was supreme allied commander in nato. you're seeing a photograph of him right now. he's steady. he's deeply respected within that society, and he obviously knows the security and the international aspects of all of this. he gets it on how this is damaging israel in the longer term, and, joe, you laid out very well all of the internal dynamics and questions. i'll give you a couple on the international scene starting with a tormented obviously

heartbroken leader in jose andres with whom i have worked on a number of different things in my capacity as chairman of the board of the rockefeller foundation. he's passionate, emotional and appropriately furious at the idea that this attack on his forces could be called "an accident." it was a deliberate shot. it was taken with bad intelligence obviously, but i'll close with this -- we absolutely need complete clarity, transparency on the upcoming investigation and, no, it can't wait until after hostilities stop. probably months from now. it's got to happen now. >> admiral, let me ask you about that attacken 0 the world central kitchen convoy. there is no good answer here. one hand chef andres suggested they were targeted. my god, if that's the case -- and on the other hand, the

intelligence was so bad our drones, our headquarters, couldn't see there was a world central kitchen logo on top of these vans, as chef and others said they coordinated their movements with the idf knowing how dangerous it was in that zone. which of those doors are you looking behind? neither of them are good? >> neither are. let me take you inside the targeteering room. i assure you at the idf headquarters they have a special cell that is put together will have intelligence officers, a judge advocate general to be considering questions. it will have typically a red cell individual who will be skeptical of the operation and above all it will have the actual targeteers. the operators who have flown those kind of missions. now they're on the ground side of it. that team is going to be looking at every time israel releases a precision-guided weapon.

so where that failure occurred, was it intelligence? was it a judgment call? was it technology? was it a drone circuit that failed to send prompt and accurate information? it could be any of those things. i can certainly attest to the fact that israeli defense forces are not going to deliberately target humanitarian workers. that's not in their dna. on the other hand, this is a massive military failure. it has to be pulled apart. the source of the problem is somewhere in that targeteering center. >> does it make sense to you, admiral, the idea you can throw a dart into tehran, into iran, and take out of a leader, wherever that leader is? outside of iran, actually. this was in syria in this case. but make this kind of mistake? that's what just doesn't add up for people.

>> yeah. if you think about war, there's always two faces to war and on the same day as you said, willie, there's a highly precise strike on an embassy compound of tehran that's located in syria. yet literally within hours we have this tragic, tragic event where these humanitarian aid workers are killed. in both cases here's the point to be made. in both cases the precision-guided weapons did what the makers design them to do, in that they did strike with extreme precision. in one case, the intelligence was good. the judgment was good. the visual technology worked. in the other, something went wrong. and we need to understand that, and, oh, by the way, there needs to be significant accountability. i can assure you if that had been a u.s. missile taking out seven aide workers, that chain

of accountability would rise way above the sergeant, the air force captain, the colonel targeteer. it would go up to the one star, the two star, the three star. that kind of accountability has to follow as well, and all of that has to be done transparently. >> needs to be done transparency and also with the understanding that when israel wanted to kill an iranian leader in syria, they were able to do it. and so they were precise there. not so precise with aide trucks. they really didn't want in there. they've been fighting -- netanyahu is fighting to keep aid trucks out of there. i agree with you, admiral. i agree with you, that -- they're not going to deliberately target those trucks. that said, i would certainly look at a lot of explanations with -- with very, very --

through very skeptical lens and ask the tough questions. caty, it's not always fair. it's not always wise, but there are often events that will be seen as defining events for political campaigns, for wars, for -- for horrors like this, and i just get the feeling, and i think you probably do, and many others do, that the killing of these aide workers and -- and the very tough words of chef jose andres, and the fact that it's going to stay in the news. the leads in the "new york times" time this morning, this may be a defining moment, a turning point for this conflict that, that has just led to the -- the -- the highest number

of jews, the most jews slaughtered and killed since the holocaust and just immeasurable suffering for the gazan people who continue to suffer this very day. we wake up, we're eating, we have homes, we have food, we have -- we have what our family needs to protect them. that's not the case for palestinian fathers in gaza, palestinian mothers in gaza. for orphans now in gaza. that's not the case. this -- this hell continues. a lot of americans, though, may be more focused now, because of the horrors of this attack on a western aide organization. >> yeah. we're not waking up grinding up cat food and dog food in order to make flour to feed it to our children or force a little salty water down their mouths because they've had no water in the last 24 hours.

so we want them to drink something. that's what's happening from the reports we hear from gaza. and you're right. it's not fair. 200 other aide workers have died. they just don't happen to be european. so there hasn't been as much focus on them. my nephew works for save the children lost someone early on and why not an international reaction to it? there hasn't, but this has done and maybe out in will change it and it i think puts a spotlight particularly as the admiral was saying on the workings of the israeli government. it doesn't take very much in the middle east for people to start thinking this was deliberate and think this is a deliberate ploy by the israeli government to use food as a weapon to starve the palestinians in order to get hamas to give them more favorable term. that's the kind of language that i'm hearing out of people from the middle east at the moment. that actually maybe it wasn't something that went awry. maybe they just don't want food to get in to the palestinians in gaza at the moment.

the heartfelt pouring from the israeli military makes that seem like it's not the case, but the international reaction to this has been very swift. there is a letter that's just come out in the uk from 600 senior lawyers includingcourt? ups who never again eninvolved saying u.s. should to the sending all weapons risks being in breach of international law. a risk this is a genocidal situation at the moment in gaza. let's see if thing changes things for the people in gaza. first and foremost we have to be thinking today especially as aid agencies pull back. how are those orphans going to get a little water? how are parents going to feed their children?

and in rafah, how do we help with feeding them? at the moment looks worse not better today in gaza. >> admiral, let's stipulate that war, something you know, is a tragic, lethal messy business. given that stipulation, why does it seem that israel, the israeli defense forces, the idf, have such a high tolerance for civilian casualties, for collateral damage? much so more than any other army? >> a complicated question but three thoughts on it. number one, it is the -- the raw emotion of failure on their own part, and what i mean by that is, as joe said a moment ago. they saw these images of israeli babies shot in their cribs. that will engender immense emotion and fury and in any military person. frankly, in any human being.

so that's a predicate to what's happening. number two is they live in the toughest neighborhood. they're up against foes who are like hamas, rapists, mutilators, torturers. there is a component to their reaction that faces the fact of the, the horrible aspects of those with whom they fight. you should never give in to that as military professionals. you should never give into either of those emotions, but it is certainly part of the calculus and third and finally, and i don't mean this in any way to sound like an excuse for what's happening, but you just can't think of a worse military situation than 2.2 million innocent civilians, half of them children, caught in the cross fire. it's just an incredibly complex situation. so none of those are excuses. the idf has got to up its game

in taking care of that civilian population, and i'll conclude with this -- caty mentioned rafah a moment ago. there are a million gazans in rafah. the idf cannot launch attacks into rafah without securing the food, the medicine, the shelter, for those million people, and far preferably actually move them out of rafah before they conduct military attacks. that's the point at which the idf needs to overcome the emotions we talked about a moment ago, mike. if they do not do that, i think these attacks of notably offensive weapons are going to start shutting down from the west. >> you know, willie, donald trump has -- has risen in america by presenting false choices. we can't be a diverse nation and a strong nation.

we -- we can't -- we can't move forward and progress without leaving too many people behind. if people of color are doing well, that must mean that white people are doing more poorly. if women have more rights than they've had before, then that must mean that men are suffering. it's always a false choice. he always plays one side against the other. that's what benjamin netanyahu has been doing for decades now in israel. he presents a false choice to the world and more importantly geopolitically he presents a false choice to america and america's leaders, and it is this -- he says, you can have a secure israel, but you cannot have at the same time a palestinian people who have safety, dignity and security. his twisted reality that has kept him in power for a long time in israel and led us to

where we are now is a twisted reality where he says, you can only have a secure israel if you have palestinian people that are beaten down, downtrodden, subjugated and suffering. only if they're second-class citizens. so benjamin netanyahu, this has been his approach, because his dream has been -- his dream has been in israel from the river to the sea. you know. israelis rightly, israeli "rightly" are offended, when people talked be a the need for a palestine that's from the river to the sea, because it's talking about wiping out israel. well, the shoe's on the other foot here. because this is benjamin netanyahu's vision, to push palestinians out and have

israelis from the river to the sea. and he presents the united states a false choice. you either support my twisted vision of what i'm doing in gaza and what i've been doing in the west bank now for over a decade. robbing palestinians of their homes. allowing religious extremists to set up illegal settlements. running roughshod over all palestinian rights in the west bank, because it helps benjamin netanyahu politically, with those religious extremists. either do that or you're not a true defender of israel. it is time, moms, dads, please, put earmuffs on your children right now. it is time for joe biden! it is the time for the united states congress! it is time for americans to wall

bullshit on that, because that has led us to where we are today and enough is enough. we can have two things at once. you know, if netanyahu wants to do this, he has a choice. if he wants to continue taking israel off a cliff. he has a choice. he can do that. but we americans, we have a choice, too, and our choice is not defined by what benjamin netanyahu says our choice is. our choice is to say, we will continue to support israel, but we're not going to continue to support the systematic killing of civilians, and if you want our support you're going to need toe do this, this and this. anybody that says after what we've seen, willie, over the past couple months. anybody who says that that's anti-israeli, they can go straight to hell, because they're dead wrong. there are those of us who have loved israel, who defended israel, who have fought -- about israel. who still love israel.

who actually went to battle with their fathers-in-law on national television over israel and would do it again! and -- and fought in congress for israel, have fought -- at night and day on tv for israel. who will always fight for israel. that doesn't mean a fight for benjamin netanyahu's twisted vision of what israel should be. i want an israel that was and can be better today than it's been over the past two months. >> so you're hearing that argument domestically from someone the admiral mention add few minutes ago. benny gantz. yesterday said publicly a few days ago we need new leaders. in the work cabinet, we need to call elections this year. we cannot wrat another two and a half years when netanyahu's next term is up. we need a change in leadership for all the reasons you just laid out, joe. and then, a phone call today to

be a fly on the wall for that between president biden and prime minister netanyahu. a contentious meeting on monday about this rafah offensive where the israeli delegation was said to be sort of -- well, animated in their defense with secretary blinken and others. joe biden, he's hearing pressure now not just from, you know, we talked about the muslim-american vote and protest vote we've seen but members of the obama administration now coming out in public ways. ben rhodes and sorries saying it's not enough to leak to the media you're outraged. do something now, given what we just saw especially this week with the world central kitchen. >> that's happened in the last 48 hours with this strike, the aide workers killed. and saying publicly. heard from admiral kirby saying the president is outraged what happened. the president himself dictated a statement released how upset he was. spoke to chef andres condemning what happened there. you noted it.

a lot of democrats including some pretty big biden supporters said, hey, look. enough is enough. can't just say they're angry. do something about it, but reporting yesterday from politico and other places at least for now white house still not going to condition aid to israel. could that change in today's phone call? it could. that was the strategy at least as of yesterday. this is going to be a significant phone call between the president and prime minister. the first time they've spoken since the strike and there's going to be extraordinary pressure for this to happen because you're right. the rafah plan that was floated by the israelis to admiral's point earlier made no mention of supplying food or water or other basic supplies for the palestinians. try to move out of rafah. u.s. deemed that unacceptable joe and that led to that meeting with a wheelhouse of emotion. a lot riding on this phone call today and doesn't appear either side is budging at the moment to make an example of what i said yesterday. what i said just a minute ago.

you know, ron dermer the guy yelling on the phone at administrative officials. tell you what, yell at me on the phone, hang up on you. call back and apologize and keep talking. ron dermer a perfect example. this is a guy i known, known a long time. i like him. ron dermer called me up after shows thanking me for fighting for israel. thanking me for fighting against anti-semitism on college campuses. thanking me for always being shoulder-to-shoulder with israel on the cause. jonathan lemire, right now ron dermer is just wrong and the guy he's working for is just wrong. and -- and -- you know what? 80% of israelis agree with me and other americans who are concerned with this, because they have a 20% approval rating in israel right now. maybe try to yell a little bit

less and -- and come together with americans a little bit more. or they're going to find themselves on a political island. >> yeah. the biden administration, joe, we discussed on the show from early weeks of october felt politically netanyahu would not be able to survive this. they thought out by now. obviously they now believe that he is in some ways trying to push this war further in order to keep himself in power. we'll see what this call for elections yields. focused on that phone call today. admiral, before you go, mentioned top of the show, 70th anniversary of an organization you once led, nato. being marked by foreign ministers today in brussels, heads of state will do so in washington this summer. trying to get your thoughts about the legacy of the organization and why now perhaps more than ever it's so vitally needed? >> wonderful question for a former supreme allied commander of nato, i'm proud to answer, jonathan. think of nato like a computer program.

nato 1.0 was the cold war nato of the u.s. versus the soviet union. we needed those nato allies to stand to-to-toe with the soviet union. nato 2.0 emerging after the 9/11 attacks. the united states was attacked, and all of our nato allies, every nation, came with us to afghanistan to avenge that, and nato 3.0 is what we see today brought on by vladimir putin now strengthened by addition of sweden and finland to the north, together these 32 nations are well over half of the world's gross domestic product. they have 3 million troops under arms almost all volunteers 15,000 combat aircraft. it's an extraordinary alliance, it's standing up to vladimir putin, and we watched a few moments ago, and i think we were all moved by martin luther king's speech. it was extraordinary.

there's another extraordinary speech in the middle of all of this. it's ronald reagan. mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall. what gave reagan the strength to make that speech? the answer is, nato. happy birthday, nato. >> well, and admiral, i want to put this map up again, and, of course, you talked about how the addition of sweden and finland turned the baltic sea to the baltic lake, but -- but we've heard whining. so sick and tired of donald trump and his allies trashing the united states, trashing the west, saying that we've seen our best days. that it can only be great again if he's there. america is great. america has been great. america will be great. look at that map of nato, and -- and on that map, that is the west. that is the west! that is the west that supposedly

has been in retreat. if you and i went back to 1989, and somebody showed us this map and said this is what nato's going to look like in 30 -- we'd tell them they're out of their mind, and it's not just the strongest military alliance in world history. admiral, so glad you brought up the gdp. all of this whining about america failing, america falling, the european being wimps. you combine america's gdp with the eu's gdp, and like you said. in that nato alliance right there we have over half of the entire globe's gdp. well over 50, 60 trillion dollars to russia's 1.3 trillion dollars. it's not even close. china, 16, 17 trillion dollars and they're struggling to avoid the lost decade the japanese had in the 1990s. talk about the strengths of america, the strength of the

west, and the strength of nato today. stronger than ever. >> stronger together is how we would phrase that, and it is a remarkable economic coalition, but militarily, united states obviously has the largest defense budget in the world. the second largest defense budget in the world collectively when you added it up is the budget of all of those european allies. we do laps around the size or scale of both china and russia combined. and, oh, by the way. in asia, the japanese, the south koreans, the australians, the kiwis of new zealands, filipinos, all want to work with nato together. so it's even beyond the european piece of this. it's really a global coalition which stands for democracy and liberty, and collectively is so

strong together against these authoritarian regimes. today -- >> yeah. >> 75th anniversary, again, happy birthday, nato. >> mika, together we cannot fail. >> right. >> which is why donald trump wants to break nato into a million pieces, because that's what vladimir putin wants. >> it's, for anyone with eyes to see. harry truman was president, of course, when this alliance was put together and coming up, the grandson of harry truman will be on the show to talk about nato 75 years later. four-star navy admiral james stavridis, thank you very much for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," the manhattan district attorney's office hits back at donald trump's delay tactics in his upcoming hush money trial. plus, special counsel jack smith. harsh criticism of a ruling by the judge overseeing trump's classified documents case in florida.

we'll have that. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. made my life a lot harder. but the picture started changing when i started on vyvgart. ♪♪ vyvgart is for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis who are anti-achr antibody positive. in a clinical trial, vyvgart significantly improved most participants' ability to do daily activities when added to their current gmg treatment. ♪♪ most participants taking vyvgart also had less muscle weakness. and your vyvgart treatment schedule is designed just for you. in a clinical study, the most common side effects included urinary and respiratory tract infections, and headache. vyvgart may increase the risk of infection. tell your doctor if you have a history of infections or symptoms of an infection. vyvgart can cause allergic reactions. available as vyvgart for iv infusion and also as vyvgart hytrulo for subcutaneous injection. additional side effects for vyvgart hytrulo may include injection site reactions.

talk to your neurologist about vyvgart.

with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be. so i hired body doubles to help me out. splurgy tina loves a hotel near rodeo drive. oh tina! wild tina booked a farm stay to ride this horse. glenn close?! with millions of possibilities you can book whoever you want to be. that's my line! booking.com booking.yeah are you keeping as much of your investment gains as possible? high taxes can erode returns quickly. at creative planning, your portfolio is managed in a tax-efficient manner. it's what you keep that really matters. book your free meeting today at creativeplanning.com.

welcome back. we're looking at a snowy peak island of maine just off of portland. it is 48 past the hour. donald trump hush money case is moving ahead as scheduled despite efforts by the former president's push the trial to later date. in a ruling rejected trump's request to delay the trial until the supreme court rules on his president's immunity claims, but trump's lawyers are trying another tactic asking the judge to delay the trial by of pre-judicial publicity. the manhattan district attorney's office was quick to hit back. in a new filing prosecutors say the former president has been the one to stoke and encourage publicity around the case and

shouldn't be rewarded with an adjournment based on media attention that he is actively seeking. joining us now, nbc news legal analyst and former federal prosecutor andrew weissmann. andrew, does this case appear to be on track to start on the 15th? >> absolutely. all signs are that judge marchan has had it. all the motions supposed to be in all the president to delay this trial have been rejected. as you said, there is now this pending motion about delaying the case because of pretrial publicity, that is going nowhere fast. you know, everyone on both sides agree that pretrial publicity is going to continue and not abate at any time, so that's not a

reason to put the trial off. it's a reason to make sure you're careful with jury selection to make sure you can find 12 jurors who are going to be fair and impartial and put aside whatever feelings they have about the case and decide just based on the facts, but we are now 11 days away, and you know, knock on wood, i think there are no more delays that are going to happen. we're going to see jury selection begin a week from monday. >> so given -- let's accept that possibly jury selection does begin on the 15th, a week from monday. what are the opportunities for team trump to create delays within that process. >> jury selection itself is a critical phase, not just because both sides, you know, need to make sure they're finding people who will be fair, but you also, as i said, really want to make sure that somebody doesn't sneak

on the jury for one side or the other to decide the case not based on the facts and the law. the judge is going to be very, very careful and a high profile matter that is always a problem. so that i think will take, you know, certainly a few days of selection. it may take the whole week, but the judge is clearly going to move this case along. this is -- once the trial starts, this is something that the judge has a very firm hand on, and i also think, you know, you've seen this in the way he's been ruling. he has really, you know, not putting up with these delay tactics. he's an experienced judge who is making very quick, very thorough decisions, so i just don't expect that we're going to see once trial starts that kind of delay. final thought is judges are very respectful of jurors' time. remember, jurors are just

everyday citizens. they really do not like to see either side delaying a case, which is considered very disrespectful of the time of the jurors. >> andrew, good morning, i want to bounce down to another case, the federal one in the state of florida where jack smith, his special counsel and his team of prosecutors there, have now questioned the jury instructions that judge aileen cannon had planned to give to the jurors. jack smith calling the instructions flawed and wrong saying they misconstrue the espionage act governing the way classified documents are handled. what do you read into this? what's the significance to the trial? >> this is a big development. to understand what's going on, unfortunately people need to understand there's a rule in the federal rules of criminal procedure that says that the trial judge, once a trial starts, has the power to enter a

judgment of acquittal for the defendant, and that decision cannot be appealed. if the judge does that without letting the case go to the jury, so that's the sort of dam cleez a trial judge has under the federal rules, and what alarmed jack smith's team is that the judge was saying that she is accepting, buying donald trump's view that the presidential records act applies to these criminal charges, and to do that, it means that she would be able to just on that basis dismiss the case once the jury is sworn. that law, she is dead wrong, so her jury instructions gave two options to the parties, both of which were wrong, both based on the presidential records act. and you don't have to be much of a lawyer to understand how wrong it is. the presidential records act is a civil statute.

it is not applicable to a criminal case. it is not what donald trump is charged with. so that is why you saw this very strong filing by jack smith that said this is dead wrong. we need a ruling that this is what you're either intending to do or that you are rejecting it, but one way or the other we need a ruling in advance of the trial because if you stick to your guns and are doing what you're saying you're going to do, we are going to mandamus you, which means we're going to have to go to the 11th circuit to get them to reverse this. the government has done this twice before. this would be the third time they would go to the 11th circuit and seek a reversal of judge cannon's rulings. >> and of course, katty kay, the presidential records act is the act that donald trump has hung his entire defense on. he's wrong about it, the presidential records act does not cover what he did in taking those documents to mar-a-lago and obstructing the investigation, and that's why in this filing jack smith said, quote, based on the current

record, the pra, the president records act should not play any role at trial at all. that's from jack smith. >> it almost kind of ties into donald trump's view that he has immunity from everything because of the fact that he was president. andrew, can i ask you one more question about the hush money case. is the case the democrats when they realize this is the one that was going to go first, actually come to trial first, not just be put first or charged first, there was a sort of slight collective groan because many felt that it wasn't the strongest of the cases. it doesn't pertain to january the 6th. it didn't pertain to the election itself. now that it's here upon us and it is going to be the one that comes to trial first, are you hearing anything about it or anything -- do you -- can you kind of read the tea leaves of how it's going to play out that might make democrats a little more confident about this being the trial, that actually the american public, as they are weighing up their electoral

decisions gets to see and hear first and foremost? >> yes, absolutely. so one, i think it's really important for people to understand that while you might not think this case is as important, is as significant as the other three criminal cases, it is only because of the contrast. two of the cases have to do with overthrowing our democracy. another has to do with retaining the most sensitive classified documents deliberately and obstructing justice in connection with those. those are incredibly serious. so i think this sort of pales only because of the comparison. anyone else, any other politician who is indicted in new york for 34 felony counts, it would be pretty hard to say, gee, don't take that seriously. don't look behind that curtain to see what's there. the other is, i think it's

important for people to at least consider the way that alvin bragg, the d.a., has talked about the case. it's very, very easy to give a short, the moniker of hush money because that is part of the case. but it's important to remember what the hush money was for. the hush money was being paid to keep evidence from the electorate in the 2016 election. right after the access hollywood very salacious, very publicized tape, this was an effort to not have more bad news by donald trump where he, with a major media outlet was not -- was keeping information from the public in the form of those payments. so one way to think about the case is just an election interference case, but not in 2020, but 2016, and that is the way it's going to be presented to the jury when this trial

starts a week from monday. >> nbc news legal analyst and former federal prosecutor andrew weissmann, thank you very much for your analysis this morning. we appreciate it. and still ahead on "morning joe," we're going to dig into new reporting on some of the violent january 6th rioters who donald trump keeps calling hostages. also ahead, the grandson of former president harry truman will join the conversation to mark nato's 75th anniversary and its impact on truman's legacy. plus, reverend al sharpton will join us as we remember civil rights icon, martin luther king 56 years after he was assassinated. we're back in two minutes. do you have a life insurance policy you no longer need? now you can sell your policy - even a term policy - for an immediate cash payment. we thought we had planned carefully for our retirement. but we quickly

realized we needed a way to supplement our income. if you have $100,000 or more of life insurance, you may qualify to sell your policy. don't cancel or let your policy lapse without finding out what it's worth. visit coventrydirect.com to find out if your policy qualifies. or call the number on your screen. coventry direct, redefining insuranc when i was your age, we never had anything like this. what? wifi? wifi that works all over the house, even the basement. the basement. so i can finally throw that party... and invite shannon barnes. dream do come true. xfinity gives you reliable wifi with wall-to-wall coverage on all your devices, even when everyone is online. maybe we'll even get married one day. i wonder what i will be doing? probably still living here with mom and dad. fast reliable speeds right where you need them. that's wall-to-wall wifi on the xfinity 10g network.

for those of you who are

black and are tempted to be filled with hatred and distrust of the injustice of such an act against all white people, i would only say that i can also feel in my own heart the same kind of feeling. i had a member of my family killed, but he was killed by a white man, but we have to make an effort in the united states. we have to make an effort to understand, to get beyond or go beyond these rather difficult times. my favorite poem, my favorite poet wasses ka lis, and he once wrote even in our sleep, pain which cannot beget falls drop by drop upon the heart until in our

own despair against our will comes wisdom through the awful grace of god. >> that was robert f. kennedy delivering a speech 56 years ago today hours after the assassination of martin luther king jr. kennedy, a u.s. senator for new york at the time was campaigning for the democratic nomination for president. he was also assassinated two months after that speech. >> willie, we had talked before about the extraordinary speech given by martin luther king on april the 3rd, 1968, the night before he died in memphis. that speech was delivered the next night. those two speeches together, jon meacham and other historians consider to be two of the greatest speeches in the history of american oratory.

that was a speech bobby kennedy gave in the inner city of indianapolis after police officers had warned him not to go there because other cities were already in flames, and kennedy said i'm going down, and i'm going to deliver the news myself, and the police said, well, we'll escort you to the edge of the neighborhoods, but you're going to have to go on without. so they drove him, stopped, he continued going in, and he delivered that speech delivering the terrible news that martin luther king had died. talked about escalis and the awful grace of god, a man who understood the absolute pain and horror that assassination inflicts on loved ones, on family members. but it was -- it was an

extraordinary, extraordinary moment, and that night, you know, a hundred cities across america burned. that night indianapolis went to sleep in peace, and it just shows you what leaders with courage can do and the inspiration of that was that man, martin luther king jr. and the people of indianapolis actually took martin luther king jr.'s words to heart that night, and it changed -- changed the trajectory of the next several days in indianapolis, but have changed over the past half century the trajectory of america for the most part when people are actually remembering what he said for the better. >> yeah, robert kennedy was uniquely qualified given it had

been four and a half years only since his own brother, the president of the united states was killed in dallas. as you say, he was out campaigning, was advised not to go into that crowd, not to go into that neighborhood, but he did, and he stood on the back of a flatbed truck. the remarks he was supposed to give folded up many his hands right there. it was a campaign speech. he did away with that and spoke largely off the top of his head that night, and in fact, delivered the news to that crowd that dr. king had been assassinated. it was not a social media world. they didn't know about that, and he delivered that news and then made that speech that we all remember and the reverend al sharpton joins us at the table. we showed at the top of our last hour dr. king's speech on april 3rd, the mountain top speech, and that amazing prophetic speech where he said i may not get there with you. he was killed on the balcony of the lorraine motel the next day. 56 years on what are your thoughts this morning, 56 years after the death of martin luther

king jr.? >> well, 56 years ago when he was killed i was 13 years old. i had just become youth director of his chapter of his organization in new york. i had been a board preacher and reverend william jones and jesse jackson appointed me as the chapter's youth director. my mother and i were home watching ironside, which was a television show at the time. and it came across the screen dr. martin luther king had been shot in memphis, and it didn't say he was killed yet. she broke down crying. i had seen dr. king and i was part of the organization's branch. i couldn't understand why she was crying so bitterly, and she told me you'd have had to grow up in alabama like i did and have to sit in the back of the bus and not be able to use the bathroom, not be able to even go to certain schools to understand who martin luther king was. and i really think people need to understand today, 56 years

later, what dr. king and that movement did for america. it literally changed the social dynamics of this country, many of which are under threat today. when i talked to martin iii who i've worked with most of those years since and mrs. king who told all of us that it was our charge to continue to work and she in many ways spent time helping to shape at martin's behest, bernice's daughter, all in the movement, andrea his daughter-in-law and yolanda. when you look at the fact in the last year we've lost affirmative action by a right wing supreme court, a ruling that has really hurt voting rights, women's right to choose, this whole movement that now is waving bibles have really removed the

moral movement dr. king stood for. i wouldn't say -- i wouldn't go as far as saying they're the antichrist, but they're the anti-king. if there's an anti-king, it's donald trump because many of the things that dr. king fought for is and has been destroyed by this supreme court and by the policies that trump and them are putting out. so to see robert kennedy sr. who stood up in danger's way and talked to a crowd and tried to calm people and understand we must go on is the same kind of moral courage we need today. to remember dr. king did it at a time when he was fighting the war in vietnam, he had opposed lyndon johnson who was his friend, who gave him the voting rights act, who fought for the civil rights act and who really deferred to the voting rights act because of the movement of the people, i believe dr. king would be saying the same to joe biden about what's going on in

israel with the world central kitchen. i remember, jose andres came to harlem right during the pandemic and for almost two years was at my headquarters. we handed out over a million plates of food over that period with andres, to see world central kitchen people being killed, i believe -- i believe dr. king would be standing up talking about that, and i have a personal connection with what jose is going through, and i hope president biden stands up to netanyahu today. >> you know, mike barnicle, it is just a side note here on how much has changed and how donald trump has worked to reverse so many of the gains made since martin luther king's passing. we showed that extraordinary clip of bobby kennedy, and here we are 56 years later.

a guy we both know, bobby kennedy jr. running, you know, as basically cover for donald trump. it's not a coincidence that some of bobby kennedy jr.'s biggest contributors are donald trump's biggest contributors. so here we are all these years later, and just this twisted path has led us to where somebody named kennedy is putting himself in a position to elect donald trump president, a guy whose life now is dedicated to reversing the work of martin luther king and bobby kennedy. >> you know, joe, i would prefer not to soil the moment by talking about what robert f. kennedy jr. is doing to himself, to his family, and to the country by his disservice of the way he's running for president

right now. i'd prefer to think about the night that his father hopped up onto the back of that flatbed truck in indianapolis, accompanied only by one security guard, his friend bill barry, a former fbi agent. there was no secret service detail surrounding him, and if you watch the whole tape of that evening when robert kennedy announces to the crowd that martin luther king has been shot and killed in memphis, tennessee, you can hear the crowd gasp. there was no texting. there were no iphones. he told the crowd that martin luther king was dead. two months later he was dead, within the space of three months, we lost martin luther king. we lost robert f. kennedy, and we lost perhaps -- i don't know the exact head count, more than 16,000 young men in vietnam. the country was in a state of

near collapse. you could hear the nuts and bolts of the republic popping off, but guess what, reverend al, the republic held and hope still lived. today people fear the re-election of donald trump and what it might mean for this country. people talk about would this be the end of democracy. i say no. i say the republic is stronger than trump, stronger than hate. you were 13 years of age then. you've seen a lot in your life. what do you think about the fact that optimism can still survive today? >> no, i think optimism must survive, and i think that if we are not operating from that optimism and that hope, then they win, and i think that we've got to be very careful of the cynicism on both sides. i say to a lot of activists, yes, we must stand up for a

two-state solution in gaza and israel, but we can't turn on each other. we can't be disruptive. we must be constructive with this and hold the moral ground. don't forget in '68 when king and kennedy were killed and all the forces that were on the left and that were progressives started fighting each other, sds, the black panther party and others. the result was hubert humphrey lost the election. we can lose by self-defeat by giving in to cynicism, rather than saying, yes, what's going on is wrong. in haiti what's going on is wrong, in sudan, and what's going wrong in gaza and ukraine, but we're not the enemies. we've got to find a way to bring the world to a higher ground, and we can't do it by operating on our lowest selves. >> no doubt about it, reverend al sharpton. >> thank you, rev, thanks for coming in. >> greatly appreciate it. look forward to the convention next week. >> we'll see you there.

>> look forward to seeing you there. >> thank you. by the way, just looking at a "usa today" article shows that donald trump's top contributor in 2020 and top contributor in 2024 also happens to be -- >> uh-oh. >> wait for it. >> robert kennedy jr.'s top contributor. $20 million. >> interesting. >> thanks. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll be joined by a senior member of the israeli government on the heels of the idf air strike that killed seven humanitarian aid workers in gaza. we'll talk about israel's response to that and the growing calls for a new election later this year. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ing "mniorn" we'll be right back. (♪♪) try dietary supplements from voltaren, for healthy joints.

smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up.

or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection, liver or kidney problems, high triglycerides, or had a vaccine or plan to. sotyktu is a tyk2 inhibitor. tyk2 is part of the jak family. it's not known if sotyktu has the same risks as jak inhibitors. find what plaque psoriasis has been hiding. there's only one sotyktu, so ask for it by name. so clearly you. sotyktu. welcome back to "morning joe," benny gantz, a prominent member of israel's war cabinet, the main rival to prime minister benjamin netanyahu now is calling for early elections to be held in september, that would be two years ahead of schedule.

speaking yesterday inside the israeli parliament, gantz said an early election would allow israel to continue the war while signaling to the citizens of israel we will soon renew their trust in us. gantz, a retired army general currently leads the polls by a healthy margin. in recent days thousands of israelis have taken to the streets in protest demanding those early elections. prime minister netanyahu rejected gantz's call saying the current government will rule until all war objectives are met. netanyahu's party accused gantz of engaging in petty politics and said elections now would lead to paralysis and division. chuck schumer who had called for new elections in a speech last month wrote yesterday on social media, quote, when a leading member of israel's war cabinet calls for early elections and over 70% of the israeli population agrees according to a major poll, you know it's the right thing to do, end quote. joining us in studio is israel's minister of economy, he served

as mayor of jerusalem from 2008 to 2018. thanks for being here this morning. >> good morning. >> so much to talk to you about. your reaction first to the calls from benny gantz and majority leader chuck schumer here in the united states for elections in september. what's your reaction? >> i'm proud that we're a good democracy and people have different opinions. i think that israel's totally united on one major thing, okay? that is completing the war. we have a force terrorist organization that demonstrated what they could do october 7th, entering israel, raping women, killing innocent people, deliberately going in and terrorizing the country, and we got to make sure that we eliminate them off the face of the earth. they're like nazis, and israel's united on that. and so while there may be difference of opinions, we're all deep understanding that we have to eliminate those jihadist terrorists that want to wipe israel off the map. and by the way, it's not only israel. they believe in sharia law, they're aligned with hezbollah,

qatar and iran, and they want to -- they're not our friends. they're not the american friends. they mean terror and jihad, and we will win the war with them. that's what we're united about. >> and very few people would disagree with any of that. of course we've said many times hamas is a terrorist death cult. the attack on october 7th was one of the most heinous in human history. the question, though, the civilian casualties on the ground in gaza and most recently the death and the attack on the world central kitchen, the convoy, seven aide workers killed. i want you to hear what the founder of world central kitchen jose andres said yesterday as he called for an investigation, what he calls a deliberate attack. here he is. >> they were target systematically car by car. they were not successful in hitting. they keep trying. this happened over more than 1.5, 1.8 kilometers. this was not situation where,

oops, we drop the bomb in the wrong place or -- no. every country, obviously the nationals including the united states that had nationals that die on this attack, we need to have an investigation that is neutral. humanitarians and civilians should never be paying the consequences of war. this is a basic principle of humanity. at the time this looks like it's not a war against terrorism anymore. seems as if it's a war against humanity itself. >> chef andres suggesting it was a targeted attack. >> it is a tragedy. we share condolences on behalf of all israelis. 30 israeli soldiers were killed by friendly fire, and remember that three of the hostages that escaped hamas were unfortunately

killed by israelis, so this is friendly fire. there's no intention, but i'll tell you who here has intentional bad causes. that's hamas. when they entered israel, they came to rape and kill and slaughter people and play soccer with chopped heads of soldiers. these are the people we're against. kb going after them unfortunately sometimes there are errors. it was not a deliberate target, and i'm sure that the investigation will eventually demonstrate that it was a mistake and it's very tragic -- it's a big tragedy. >> the question many have been asking, though, mr. minister, a military as sophisticated as yours that can have a pinpoint strike on iranian leaders inside syria, out in the open, the world central kitchen trucks have coordinated with the idf their movements because it is so dangerous, how on earth does that happen? >> it's a mistake. it's the same mistake that friendly fire killed 30 of our own people. you don't think when an israeli soldier is killed in gaza by our

own troops, i've met some of the families, it's part of war. i was a combat officer in the first lebanese war unfortunately, we had people killed from -- our own soldiers killed. they're friendly. they're good people those folks that actually helped israelis on our side as well. so there's no doubt in my mind that the people that pushed the button, they thought this was terrorists. that's the mistake, and i'm sure that it will be uncovered. again, we have to realize who we are against. this is unintentional and the terrorists, everything they do is intentional, and we have to eliminate them off the face of the earth exactly the way that we eliminated all the nazis in the second world war. we didn't leave a fourth of the nazis to recover and to maintain the naziism. we go into houses in gaza and you see nazi material translated to arabic. they're trained to kill jews. that's their goal. that's their intention.

>> are you concerned about the number of civilian deaths among the gazan population, not only that, but the famine that now has taken place because gaza is cut off. again, no one contests what you're saying about hamas. we say it every day on this show and have for a very long time, especially after the hideous attack of october 7th, but is israel concerned about the human suffering inside gaza, number one, and the number of civilian deaths that have been incurred since this attack began. >> we're concerned about 134 hostages. here's a picture of some of them. these girls are under tunnels for half a year. raped, tortured. this is what we're concerned about. we're concerned about those victims in israel that were murdered, slaughtered, little children that were put in the oven. women that were raped and killed while they were raped by terrorists, by jihadists. so we're concerned about those. how do we eliminate these folks? and by the way, they're funded. they're funded by qatar and

iran. >> yeah, they are. yes, they are. >> yes, they are mr. mayor. mayor can i ask you a question, i'm so glad you brought that up. i have always looked at hamas as nazis, they're terrorists. have you always looked at hamas as nazis? >> unfortunately, yes, and it was demonstrated october 7th when they do. >> yeah, so you always have. have most of the israeli people always looked upon hamas as nazis? >> well, you know, some of the people in israel because we seek peace thought maybe one day they will prefer peace than war. october 7th -- >> what about benjamin netanyahu -- what about benjamin netanyahu? what about him? has he always looked upon hamas as nazis? >> you're talking about qatar or hamas? >> hamas. >> hamas. >> i think that everyone understands that hamas's charter is to destroy israel and by the way, not only israel -- >> so you've always known this.

>> unfortunately yes. >> so let me ask you this question, and i can't get an answer, and maybe we're just not covering it in the press, maybe you can help me out. why did benjamin netanyahu send the head of mossad to doha three weeks before the worst attack on jews since the holocaust and told qatar to continue funding hamas? >> i think if anything october 7 shattered that concept, and it's my understanding -- >> but you just said you always knew they were nazis. i always knew they were nazis. i would never give. we were always angry that qatar funded hezbollah and hamas. i want to know why did benjamin netanyahu do that. let me ask you this, why did benjamin netanyahu and donald trump know in 2018 the sources of hamas's elicit funding and they still did nothing? they wanted that money to get to hamas. i'd like to know why because we don't know in america.

have there been any investigations in israel at this point? >> i'm sure we'll investigate it, and i totally agree with you -- >> when? >> that qatar is a wolf in sheep's clothes, and -- >> no, no, no. i must correct you. benjamin netanyahu was asked by the leaders of qatar, do you want us? do you want us, qatar, to give money to hamas? this was in september, and netanyahu's representative said, yes, of course, you're feeding that wolf, and you're telling that wolf to feed the nazis in gaza. so explain to me -- because i really want to know -- why was benjamin netanyahu and his government funding -- they were allies with qatar in the funding of hamas. why? >> i think it's a mistake, and it was uncovered october 7th.

october 7th demonstrated that if you think you can buy quiet, peace, by funding hamas, it's a huge mistake, and it's -- >> why did benjamin netanyahu knowing that their charter said that they were to kill jews and eradicate israel, why would any leader of israel work to defund that organization to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars and work with qatar to fund hamas? >> i think that question should be asked and we'll get an answer, we'll ask -- >> when are we going to get the answer? we've been asking it for six months. when are we going to get the answer? >> at the end of the day, once we finish the war, all these -- will rise and we'll deal with them. right now we're focused on winning the war -- >> i want to ask you another question because you brought this up. >> yes. >> you brought it up, and it is

so sickening to think about the israeli women that were beaten, raped, murdered, the israeli grandmothers who were burned to death, the toddlers who were shot in their beds for ten hours, some of these people waited for benjamin netanyahu's government to come and rescue them. those people whose faces you were holding up, they sat and they waited in shelters, their children saw their parents shot. parents saw some children shot, and they kept waiting for netanyahu's government to come rescue them. two, three, four, seven, ten, in some cases 13 hours. where was benjamin netanyahu? where was the idf?

where were the defense forces over those 12, 13 hours while the worst slaughter of jews since the holocaust was unfolding within 40, 50 miles of netanyahu? >> let me answer you. we will investigate that. we were caught by surprise. and there were many, many faults, many faults -- >> let me ask you this -- how can you -- how can you you -- how can you -- >> let me answer. >> how could you be caught by surprise when you had hamas's plans for a year? netanyahu had -- >> can i answer this, please -- >> -- the terrorist attacks for a year, why didn't they act on it? >> these faults will be uncovered, and there are many, many challenges, and we will investigate everything. honestly, believe me, everyone in israel, right, left, we all want to go down to deep -- to investigate, have deep investigations on this issue,

okay? but this is not the time. right now we have to focus on winning the war. >> well -- >> this is not the time to interrogate and ask these questions, and i agree we should ask these questions. >> with all due respect, i would say if israel, a country that is absolutely necessary to freedom and democracy in the middle east and the world, if israel has been led in this position by a leader that allowed all of these things to happen, how in the world do you trust that lead er to make the right decision in the most important war since 1973. >> well, we're a democracy and we have our rules, and we obey the rules of democracy. and right now the israeli government -- by the way, the war cabinet, which has expanded including the folks that were on opposition, are all united on the war.

not only what was wrong on october 7th or what led to it, many mistakes, many problems. we're putting all that aside at this point, and we're all united winning the war, and i want to emphasize we got to bring back those 134 hostages that are sitting right now in the tunnels raped, tortured, it's just terrible, and i think the world should focus on that, and number two, focus on that wolf in sheep's clothes. that's of course qatar and iran that are funding it, giving safe haven to hamas leaders. this should be off the charts and we must realize they're a big enemy of israel. let's focus right now on win the war. when we win the war, we will deal with -- >> netanyahu, they funded hamas for years through netanyahu's direction. >> i want to ask a question about that. every victim in this has been mentioned by you, sir, except for civilians starving in gaza,

and i just want to point out that you never even when asked, you didn't mention that. i'm not going to ask because i've heard -- >> well -- >> but i want to ask you given the questions that joe has just raised and given the gravity of the situation, is benjamin netanyahu fit to lead at this moment? >> first of all, i do have to answer. we don't want anybody, any civilian to suffer, and we collaborate with the world helping the innocent people, the innocent people in gaza that 80% of them, 80% of them support october 7th, we don't want anybody to starve or anything, and we will be helpful to the world, collaborating and helping them. and by the way, there's no president, no presidents in the world when you have a war that you help your enemy. this is the first time in all wars that israel is willing to help the gazan people not to

starve. we want to make sure that they move away when we target, we're telling them, move aside. don't give shelter to the terrorists, and you will be safe. if you give shelter to terrorists, you are at risk, and this -- no other army in the world has such, you know, honesty and consideration of our enemies, and this is something we're proud of, and we'll continue doing. >> as we've said many times, hamas hides behind civilians. that's what it does. >> that's very unfortunate, yes. >> they don't mind their own people dying because they think it makes israel look bad, but why do you put the word innocent in quotes when you mention them, the women and children who are suffering, who don't have a choice but to live in gaza. why do you put that in quotes? >> because we saw who came in -- >> i'm talking about the families, the women and children, are they not innocent? >> generally we don't want to hurt innocent people, okay? but what you saw in the attack

on october 7th is innocent civilians entering israel and taking part of those atrocities, and when you poll them, the majority of them, huge majority of them support october 7th. they give cover to the terrorists, and it's very unfortunate. what we want is friendly neighbors like the emirates, like the saudis that want to seek peace, that their education system in the emirates has changed to seek peace. right now all of the children that are getting educated in in hamas, in gaza, and in judea and is a mare ya are trained to kill jews, they get a million dollars to kill a jew. 7% of the budget of the palestinian authority is for people that killed israelis. unfortunately they have to change their charter. they have to move from wanting to kill israel, wanting to be

jihadists. and by the way, again, if god forbid they have their way, europe is next, the u.s. is next. it's not about israel, it's about a holy war against all non-muslims. this is what we're facing, and we will win the war. we have no choice but to win the war. we will finish hamas. we have no choice, no nazi survived the second world war, and none of the hamas will survive this war. they started this war. we will end it. >> but do you agree that women and children who may not have a choice but to be in fwaz, who don't have a choice, who are starving, some of whom have been killed, that they are innocents in this conflict? >> we have no quarrel with them. we will do everything we cannot to hurt innocent civilians. you know, in the war in syria, half a million civilians were killed and over 5 million fled. in ukraine, you have hundreds of thousands of people killed, and 4 or 5 million people fled. in gaza, i didn't hear the world trying to ask and rescue people, okay? if they do, we'll help. if we have to help them in aid

and food, we will allow that. that's fine. >> let me ask you about the 134 hostages whose families we've had on our show and whose stories are just agonizing and harrowing and whose faces we show on our show all the time, what is the best hope, as you see it, to bring them home? negotiating with hamas is probably futile. they're a terrorist death cult, they don't want to return the hostages. what do you say to the families? what is the best hope to get the hostages home? >> we all agree and i speak to them a lot. i met the family -- the families of these young ladies, young girls that are hostage. you see the pictures of them in captivity and how they looked before. they can't sleep at night, and they all understand, we all understand that we have to put pressure on hamas. we have to put pressure on hamas, and in that process hopefully we'll be able to bring them home. we cannot surrender to hamas.

we will never surrender to hamas. it's, again, not only the challenge of israel, it's the challenge of the free world. we understand that very well. you know, i was about a month ago in the emirates speaking to some of the emiratis and many, many people in the moderate era world that understand that this alignment of muslim brotherhood, hamas, hezbollah, qatar, and iran, and i want to mention qatar. qatar is an enemy of the state of israel, and not only the state of israel, and there are billions and trillions of dollars, they're buying their way in, in america and other places, they're buying their way in. they're doing it in a very friendly way, funding the universities, funding -- buying channels, not just al jazeera and others, they are buying their way in, and they are a wolf in sheep's clothes. they are an enemy and giving safe haven to hamas leaders.

this is a very big challenge. >> mr. mayor, i agree with you on just about everything you said. i mean, i think they've made a big investment in news max recently. they want to influence, if i'm wrong i stand corrected, but i think i read that. they are qatar is one of the largest contributors to american universities over the past decade, over the past 15 years. you can see the impact on that, on college campuses. it is pushing the debate to extreme levels. some of the professors at some of america's finest institutions have positions on this issue that are extreme, and i say all of this to once again -- and i want to end on a unifying note, but i just have to say again, if they are so terrible, i hope the people of israel will get an answer from benjamin netanyahu on why he was asking them,

asking qatar to fund hamas three weeks before all the rapes and the killings and the kidnappings were going on. do you -- i take it you want the answer to that question, right? >> i do. i do, and before we get an answer to that, it's a big, huge change that we need to bring in policy. we have to make very, very clear that qatar is probably the biggest enemy of israel because with iran, which is a physical war, we know how to win the war with them. we know how to beat hezbollah and hamas, okay? but qatar is using their money and their capital to buy their way in and they're funding isis. they're buying -- hamas, they're funding all the terror around the world, and they look like really nice guys. well, they're not. they're an enemy of the world. >> i'm just shocked, mr. mayor, that benjamin netanyahu, your

own prime minister didn't know that three weeks before the attack because i sure as hell knew it and most people in america knew it. i want to finish up on a point that you brought up that i think is a very important point. this is a point we've said on this show. so much of what you said, i want you to know, we've said on this show since october the 7th. you know, it is fascinating that when 500,000 arabs were killed in the syrian civil war, i didn't see protests on college campuses. i didn't see people screaming and shouting at the united nations. when palestinians were slaughter ed in syria, i didn't see it. we've said it on this show, it's not a secret other arab nations don't want the palestinians in their countries. they treat them terribly, and often palestinians are slaughtered, and we were complaining about it here. we were protesting about it here, the killing of 500,000

arabs by assad, but nobody else seemed to be concerned. it always seems that when jews are attacked by arabs and jews defend themselves against arabs that's when the world -- >> it's a classic double standard -- >> -- adopts this double standard. that said -- and we agree. we agree on that, and we agreed on that. that said, obviously we believe hear that what's been happening the last several months hurts israel in the long run, but i want -- i want to finish by asking you, hold up, can you hold up those hostages again? do you think that hamas who raped and brutalized those women, do you think there's any hope of those women, if they're still alive under the tunnels of gaza being raped every day, do you think there's a chance that

hamas will ever bring them home to their families? >> i hope so. all of us in israel pray that they come back home safely. speaking to their families, we're all one big family in israel, and this is something that, you know, you wake up in the middle of the night thinking about them as if they're like our daughters. our daughters are there, and imagine your daughters there and you know they're held by monsters, just monsters, and that's why we're fighting. we're fighting because we understand that we're fighting to make sure that none of this ever happens again. we're fighting to kill all those terrorists, the jihadi terrorists that are trained and educated to kill jews, and we understand that it's not only us. we're in the same line. you know, they call us israel the small satan, and you know who the big satan is, it's the

united states of america, and qatar is buying their way in public opinion in the united states as if though they're sweethearts. they're not. they're enemies of the west, and they're trying to do everything they can to bring jihad and the sharia law all over the world. that's their charter, and they're not our friends, and we have to remember that they're an enemy, and we will fight them. >> if only benjamin netanyahu knew that in september before the attacks. i want to expand this out really quickly and then let you go, i mean, you say it's not just israel, it's the united states. it's also jews. >> yes. >> whether it's jews on college campuses in america, whether it's jews across the world, anti-semitism, this is a world war against jews. there are 15 million jews alive today because of the holocaust and because of everything else that has happened. so this is a war against all

jews wherever jews are. and i just ask you for all the israelis that are in the streets now saying bring those families home, the protests rising, begging for a cease fire, a permanent cease fire that would bring those hostages home and end the war in gaza, what do you say to those family members and to those thousands of thousands of israelis saying, yes, bring the families home. let's have a cease fire. >> we all have the same goal, and that is to defeat hamas and bring them home, okay? and the cabinet that we now have, the war cabinet, which i'm by the way not part of, but i support, the cabinet is working on what is the right solution? how is the best way to get there, and it's certainly not to stop the war. we have to finish hamas off. huge majority of israel understands that, of israelis. we will do that, and the world needs to give us credit that

indeed we will do everything we cannot to hurt innocent people on one hand, but we have to finish and kill those nazis. eliminate them off the face of the earth so that they will not try to do that again. if they're successful, if god forbid we're not, you will see this in europe, you will see this in the united states, the jihadists, you will fuel jihad around the world. we will not let that happen. >> israel's minister of economy and industry, the former mayor of jerusalem, nir barkat. >> thank you very much. we'll have a live report from israel just ahead in our fourth hour. "morning joe" will be right back. r. "morning joe" will be right back announcer what if you could whiten your teeth by simply brushing your teeth? now you can with smileactives, the teeth whitening breakthrough that safely gets your teeth white and keeps them white every day just by brushing your teeth.

christine i never thought that whitening my teeth could be so easy. i just put the gel on the brush, the toothpaste on it, brush and i can see my white teeth. announcer simply add smileactives to any toothpaste, and our patented polyclean technology activates into a powerful micro foam that penetrates into the enamel surface to safely lift and remove stains. robert you need a simple way to withen your teeth without strips, without trays, without going to the dentist. and it was about time that a product was developed that you would be able to do that with just brushing. announcer and now smileactives is even better. with new pro whitening gel with 33% greater whitening power. clinically shown to whiten teeth faster up to eight shades. 100% of users saw whiter teeth on food stains, coffee and wine stains, even on veneers, crowns and dentures. paul i eat the blueberries, i drink the coffee and i know that smileactives will keep my teeth white every day. janell if you could do something so easy like smileactives to take yellow teeth to white teeth,

why wouldn't you? announcer why spend hundreds of dollars for whitening treatments at the dentist, when now you can whiten your teeth with new smileactives pro whitening gel every time you brush your teeth. call or go to smileactives.com and for a limited time get new pro whitening gel for just $24.95. order in the next 5 minutes and buy one get one absolutely free for just $24.95. that's two for one and save 58%. we■ll even include free shipping. get your teeth whiter, guaranteed, or return it within 60 days for your money back. i smile every day now. the difference is literally night and day. so now i'm always smiling or cheesing because now my teeth are much wither. announcer this offer is not available in stores, so call or click now before the special buy one, get one free offer goes away.

welcome back to "morning joe." 51 past the hour. world leaders are gathering in brussels today to mark 75 years since the signing of the nato treaty. on april 4, 1949, then-president harry truman was joined by the heads of 11 other nations to

show global unity in the aftermath of world war ii. today, the alliance has grown to 32 members with truman's words from that day still ringing as true as ever. >> in all time, we've seen brave men overcome obstacles that seemed insurmountable and forces that seemed overwhelming. men with courage and vision can still determine their own destiny. they can choose slavery or freedom, war or peace. i have no doubt which they will choose. the treaty we are signing here today is evidence of the path they will follow. >> harry s. truman, he understood on a personal level what can happen when we allow the forces of evil, the forces of aggression to spread. when the united states entered world war i, he joined the

national guard. that left truman along with generations of men and women and survived the world wars, determined that history would not repeat itself. harry truman believed that the best way, maybe the only way to ensure that was to bind america's fate to that of other nations who shared our values for all to commit to defending one another's territory as if it were there are own. >> joining us now is the grandson of former president harry truman, clifton truman daniel. he's in brussels attending the nato ceremonies. it's good to have you on. >> mr. daniel, thank you so much for being on here. your grandfather's a hero of mine and so many around the table, and i know dr. brzezinski. he did so many things between '45 and '49. we can talk about the doctrine and the plan, but nato seems to be the legacy that is still

impacting this world and keeping it safe every day. talk about the importance of his vision, especially as it pertains to nato. >> well, thank you both for having me on. i appreciate it. i think i said this last night at the ceremonies that you just had a clip of secretary blinken speaking at, for my grandfather, it was a simple thing, a simple idea. democracy, the right of self-determination. he likened nato to a group of homeowners with similar interests that banded together for self-protection and protecting their values, their borders. we're always going to have people who want to take that away from us. he knew that. we're at it again today, but for him, again, just the simple fact of banding together with friends supporting each other, there is strength in unity. >> so clifton, nato has expanded

beyond anyone including your grandfather's imagination back then. now we've seen two new nations join just in the last few months because of what's happening in ukraine. so speak to, if you will, the vitality of nato, why it remains so important today and going forward. >> i found myself at ceremonies this morning both heartened and disheartened. heartened to see that many people, to see the ministers of 32 countries, to see the myriad of staff people that work here in brussels at nato headquarters, to hear them talk about the importance, to their individual countries, to their individual freedoms, to their lives, and to watch all these people working together no matter where they're from, what their background, their culture, their language, working together, it's quite a sight to see, and it's -- it is frankly uplifting. disheartening only because we

still need that because we seem to be exactly where we were 75 years ago. as i said a little earlier, we are always going to have somebody who wants to -- somebody who wants to enforce their lives, their opinions, their rules, their religion on other people, and nato is, i think, perhaps the most important bull work against that not just in europe, and you were talking about that earlier. it's not just in europe, but it's worldwide. >> clifton, we're wondering your thoughts on the reel of history that we have been displaying here this morning on this show. the anniversary of nato, the 56th anniversary of martin luther king being killed and robert f. kennedy giving his speech in indianapolis, and the threat to the republic that existed then, the threat to the republic that exists today, people with so many negative feelings walking around in the united states today, but the optimism that nato should -- the lasting optimism of nato

particularly, what are your thoughts about today in terms of optimistic going forward? >> well, frankly i'm a bit more optimistic having been here today, and having been to nato headquarters for that ceremony, and just having been around those people, to know that they are good at this. 75 years -- 75 years on a growing concern, it is the strongest alliance ever in world history, and still going, and i hope will continue to grow. so very optimistic to be here with them, but again, i sometimes don't sleep very well at night with what's going on in the world today and in our own country. >> clifton truman daniel, the grandson of president harry truman, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> what an extraordinary legacy. >> absolutely. >> and a legacy that needs to continue to be built upon. >> yes. we'll be talking more about this, and still ahead on

"morning joe," former adviser to president george w. bush, carl rove has some advice for democrats, and strong criticism of donald trump. we'll play for you those comments. plus, nbc news justice reporter ryan riley joins us with a closer look at the violent insurrectionists that donald trump calls hostages. we're back in two minutes. ostag. we're back in two minutes. because for 54 years they were trying to get roe v. wade terminated. and i did it. and i'm proud to have done it. joe biden: in 2016, donald trump ran to overturn roe v. wade. now, in 2024, he's running to pass a national ban on a woman's right to choose. i'm running to make roe v. wade the law of the land again so women have a federal guarantee

to the right to choose. donald trump doesn't trust women. i do. i'm joe biden and i approve this message. donald trump dno matter what you're up against, we have your back. we are united way. we are neighbors helping neighbors in communities around the

when disaster strikes we get you back on your feet. we help children build brighter. we've been here for over 135 s but now our work is more . join us. join your neighbors. join united way. i don't know what will happen now. we've got some difficulties ahead, but it really doesn't matter with me now because i have been to the mountaintop. and i don't mind. like anybody, i would like to live a long life, longevity has its place. but i'm not concerned about that now.

i just want to do god's will, and he has allowed me to go up to the mountain, and i've looked over and i've seen the promised land. i may not get there with you, but i want you to know tonight that we as a people will get to the promised land. [ applause ] so i'm happy tonight. i'm not worried about anything. i'm not fearing any man. mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the lord. >> that was martin luther king jr. in memphis, tennessee the night before he was assassinated. today marks 56 years since his death. >> wow. >> willie, it's just such an extraordinary speech on so many

levels. it was april 3, 1968. it was raining outside. martin luther king was supposed to go deliver the sermon. he was too exhausted. i believe it was ralph abernathy who said, martin, you've got to go, and he went and he delivered one of the most prophetic speeches in history, foreseeing his own death, understanding the challenges and like moses, in the old testament, taken to the top of the mountain to see the promised land, but knowing that he would never get there himself despite the long march of his people to that point, and to,

you know, that speech coming april 3, 1968, right before his passing, you know, it's the march on washington in 1963 that led to the passing of the civil rights act, and the vote rights act in '64 and '65 which enshrined for the first time in our constitution, in our nation's laws part of the promises made going back to 1776. and we have come a long way in many, many areas. a black president, a black vice president, black justices of the supreme court, black ceos, and yet willie, sadly there are many of us and i'll include myself who believed that the moral arc of the universe did bend upward

and continued to bend upward. we have had a bit of a flattening out over the past five, six, seven, eight years. an anger, a pushing back on some of the very recent gains made by black americans and people of color, and that's in large part, what this election is about. whether we continue to move toward being that more perfect union that martin luther king jr. mentioned that night in memphis, or whether we go backwards to the '50s, to the '40s, to a time of america, segregated america, an america at war with itself. >> yeah. a lot of that grievance for which donald trump has been a vessel for almost a decade now is exactly what you are saying, which is the progress that this country has made. a little too fast for some people in this country. they feel maybe they have been left behind or perhaps now

they're the ones not getting the fair shake, and donald trump has tapped into that, but man. you listen to that speech, mike barnicle, but every time you hear it, it sends chills up your spine. the delivery alone, is substance alone, but then what happened the next day. he was shot on the balcony in memphis. he was there to talk to striking sanitation workers in memphis. some were living in squalor, and he gave them hope and he was killed on that day, april 4, 1968 and a day that, you know, you were covering the news, the day that shook the country, and whose echoes are still felt today. >> i was in washington, d.c. the night that martin luther king was murdered. i was in washington, d.c. the same night after he died, and robert f. kennedy was in indianapolis giving another incredible speech in indianapolis about the

assassination. soon washington, d.c. was in flames along with a lot of other major cities in the country. the country seemed fractured. the republic seemed shaky. were we going to hold? it did hold. it held then. it held throughout the year, and it held ever since, and i believe hope is still life that it will continue to hold despite the fractures in this nation that joe just described. >> yeah. we believe that. this is a tweet from martin luther king iii. he wrote it yesterday. tomorrow is the anniversary of my dad's assassination. to the world, he was monumental, a titan of justice, but to me, he was a dad. he was at the center of our home and family. the world lost an incredible leader. we lost a loving father. yolanda lost the chance to meet her grandfather. >> it's also the anniversary of another consequential day in

history. 75 years ago today, the north atlantic treaty, nato, was signed in washington. we'll discuss the significance of the alliance amid the war in ukraine which is nearing 800 days and counting, and the man who used to lead that alliance, retired four-star navy admiral, james stavridis is with us. he's chief national analyst of nbc news. plus, jonathan lemire and u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay, and our top story this morning amid growing tensions over the war in gaza. president biden and israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu are expected to speak by phone today. this will be their first direct communication since the israeli air strike that killed seven world central kitchen workers. earlier this week, biden expressed some of his strongest criticism of israel to date saying he was outraged and

heartbroken by those deaths. biden and netanyahu last spoke on march 18th, when the president warned the prime minister against carrying out a military offensive in the southern city of rafah. meanwhile, world central kitchen founder jose andres is calling for an investigation into what he says was a deliberate attack on his organization's workers speaking on camera yesterday for the first time since the air strike, andres said the israeli government's claim that the blast was accidental -- >> was rejected. >> he rejected that. >> they were a target systematically car by car because they were hit unsuccessly. it happened, and they kept trying. this happened. this was not just bad luck in a situation where, oops, we dropped the bomb in the wrong place or -- no.

every country obviously has nationals including the united states that had nationals that died on this attack. we need to have an investigation that is neutral. humanitarians and civilians should never be paying the consequences of war. this is a basic principle of humanity. at the time this looked like this is not a war against the regime anymore. it's a war against humanity itself. >> so many investigations that need to be done. so many investigations that are being put off. so many investigations, you know, why? are you tracking these trucks from an organization that you know is delivering tons of food, of aid to gaza, to bring desperately needed aid to gaza? why were we tracking them? why were they firing on them?

they were clearly marked after all. this is the same idea. this is the same netanyahu government that was bragging about their pinpoint precision and being able to kill iranian leaders just a few days ago. and here with pinpoint precision, with their logos on the top of these vans for the world central kitchen, missiles are delivered through the middle of those vans, and they're targeted. i mean, my god. and so many investigations coming after the war's over we're told, benjamin netanyahu says. >> now is not the time. >> about the hostages. now is not the time. the hostages who escaped? who took their shirts off? who raised their hands after escaping from the horror of being a hamas hostage? and the idf with their hands in the air, with their shirts off, idf guns them down?

oh, that's an investigation we have to worry about later too, and then netanyahu knowing for a year beforehand of hamas' plans. they had the plans in hand in the government doing absolutely nothing about it. doing absolutely nothing about the illicit funding that trump and netanyahu knew about in 2018. the funding sources that kept hamas' war machine alive. they looked the other way. they said, don't worry about it, and of course, as i've said on this show and yet for some reason netanyahu still is not having to answer for this, as i have said repeatedly, netanyahu sent a representative up to doha three weeks before the attack on october the 7th. the leaders of qatar said, do you guys still want us to keep sending all this money to hamas?

the answer, yes. of course, we do. netanyahu was the chief sponsor of hamas through qatar. it was netanyahu that was keeping the money flowing there. whoa, but we can't investigate that until after the war's over. we can't do anything until after the war's over. we can't -- we can't ask any questions about why benjamin netanyahu set up a situation where hamas had the weapons, the powers, the means to basically walk -- walk into israel, walk into israel and assault the idf and the famed israeli defense forces with mopeds, drugged up

terrorists, and paragliders, and benjamin netanyahu did nothing for hours while israeli women were beaten and raped and killed and grandmothers were beaten and burned to death. babies were shot in their cribs. parents had to watch these -- these terrorists -- i would like to call them something else. these terrorists shoot their children in front of them, and children were forced to watch as these terrorists shot their parents in front of them. one hour goes by and netanyahu's government does nothing. two hours, nothing. three, four, the rapes continue. five hours, six, nothing. seven hours, eight hours, nothing. ten hours. some places, 12, 13 hours,

nothing is done. but what happened that day? how in the -- how in the hell did netanyahu's government allow that to happen? oh, you can't ask those questions. we're fighting a war. why would you allow this man to continue running your country when he is responsible? >> i think they're asking that question, a lot of israeli. >> when he is responsible for hamas being able to run loose in israel and commit the worst atrocities against jews since the holocaust. we know the nature of hamas. we know their stated goal has always been to kill jews, to destroy israel. yet netanyahu was funding them. netanyahu had their war plans. netanyahu did nothing. netanyahu, he was asleep at the switch when this happened. i mean, hamas, it's like

scorpions. if you had a nanny put scorpions in your baby's crib, would you say, well, you know, it's a tough time right now. the baby's in the hospital. we better keep the same nanny until the baby -- no! in this case, the man who is almost singularly responsible for letting israel's guard down because he was too interested in fighting the rule of law in israel. he was too interested in dividing one israeli against the other. he was too busy tending to the needs of religious extremists, so much so that he kind of forgot to take care of the secular elements of the idf, and them aside and the intel service

that is had kept israel safe since 1948. how long? how long? let's bring in admiral stavridis. admiral, i do not ask you to associate with a single word i said. i do -- i do though want to know how long -- i believe -- it is my belief, and if i am wrong, please push back, the damage, the harm that benjamin netanyahu is inflicting on israel, that he's already inflicted on israel, that he will inflict on israel for years to come because of his behavior since and before october the 7th. it seems to me it's so massive that we're going to have to leave it to historians and future generations to sum it up, but i'm just wondering, how long does this continue, the hell we're seeing play out in israel and gaza?

>> let's start with the political. i think that the clock is indeed ticking on benjamin netanyahu for all the reasons you articulate. no democracy can tolerate that kind of incompetence on display again and again and again. that clock is ticking, and i think we're going to hear from the center of israeli politics, the center-left of israeli politics, and they're going to demand answers appropriately to the questions you just posed, and i would indeed associate myself very strongly with all of that. i'll add that the -- in the center of that cabinet is former general, leader of the israeli defense forces bennie gantz who is someone i worked with consistently during the four years. i was supreme ally commander in nato. you're seeing a photograph of him right now. he's steady. he's deeply respected within that society, and he obviously

knows that security and the international aspects of all of this, he gets it on how this is damaging israel in the longer term, and joe, you laid out very well all of the internal dynamics and questions. i'll give you a couple on the international scene starting with a tormented, obviously heartbroken leader in jose andres with whom i have worked on a number of different things in my capacity as chairman of the board of the rockefeller foundation. he's passionate, emotional, and appropriately furious at the idea that this attack on his forces could be called an accident. it was a deliberate shot. it was taken with bad intelligence, obviously, but i'll close with this. we absolutely need complete clarity, transparency on the

upcoming investigation and no, it can't wait until after hostilities stop probably months from now. it's got to happen now. >> admiral, let me ask you about that attack on the world central kitchen convoy. there is no good answer here. on the one hand, chef andres is suggesting they were targeted. >> yeah. >> which, my god, if that's the case, and then on the other hand, it's the intelligence was so bad our drones, our headquarters couldn't see there was a world central kitchen logo on the top of these vans which as many other chefs said they coordinated their movements in that zone. which of the doors are you looking behind in neither are good. >> neither are, and let's take you inside the targeteering room because inside the headquarter, they have a special cell that is

put together. it will have intelligence officers and a judge advocate general to be considering questions. it will have typically a red cell individual who will be skeptical of the operation and above all, it will have actual operators who have flown those kind of missions now there on the ground side of the. -- of it. that team is going to be looking every time israel releases a precision-guided weapon. where that failure occurred, was it intelligence? was it a judgment call? was it technology? was it a drone circuit that failed to send prompt and accurate information? it could be any of those things. i can certainly attest to the fact that israeli defense forces are not going to deliberately target humanitarian workers. that's not in their dna. on the other hand, this is a massive military failure. it has to be pulled apart.

the source of the problem is somewhere in that targeteering center. >> does it make sense to you that the idf can throw a dart into iran and take out a leader or wherever that leader is outside of iran, actually, and this was in syria in this case, but make this kind of mistake? that's just what doesn't add up for people. >> yeah, and if you think about war, there's always two faces to war, and on the same day as you said, willie, there's a highly precise strike on an embassy compound of tehran that's located in syria, yet literally within hours we have this tragic, tragic event where these humanitarian aid workers are killed. in both case, here's the point to be made here. in both cases, the precision-guided weapons did what the makers designed them to do in that they did strike with extreme precision. in one case, the intelligence

was good. the judgment was good. the visual technology worked. in the other, something went wrong, and we need to understand that and oh, by the way, there needs to be significant accountability. i can assure you if that had been a u.s. missile taking out seven aid workers, that chain of accountability would rise way above the sergeant, the air force captain, the colonel targeteer. it would go up to the one-star, the two-star, the three-star. that kind of accountability has to be followed as well and all of that has to be done transparently. >> admiral, stay with us. we want to talk about the 75th anniversary of nato's founding and what what it means for global security. "morning joe" is back in a minute. ecurity. "morning joe" is back in a minute

hello, ghostbusters. it's doug. we help people customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. we got a bit of a situation. [ metal groans] sure, i can hold. ♪ liberty liberty liberty liberty ♪ in theaters now. ♪3, 4♪ ♪ ♪hey♪ ♪ ♪are you ready for me♪

♪are you ready♪ ♪are you ready♪ (♪♪) with chewy, it's never been easier to get their favorite toy delivered. (♪♪) again. come on, let go. (♪♪) and again. (♪♪) and again. (♪♪) good luck. get whatever they love delivered right on time.

save 35% on your first autoship order. with chewy. hi, i'm kim, and i lost 67 pounds on golo. when i go out with people, get whatever they love delivered right on time. they expect me to eat like a bird. they are shocked by the amount of food i eat while losing weight. with golo, i don't need a cheat day because i get to eat the foods i like any day of the week.

norman, bad news... i never graduated from med school. what? but the good news is... xfinity mobile just got even better! now, you can automatically connect to wifi speeds up to a gig on the go. plus, buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. i gotta get this deal... that's like $20 a month per unlimited line... i don't want to miss that. that's amazing doc. mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc?

in 1949, the north atlantic treaty was signed by many countries. the pact was designed to keep within the letter and spirit of the united nations charter. the treaty members realized that real peace is more than an absence of war, and they seeked to promote political and economic stability in the north atlantic area. they are sworn to stand together against aggression and an attack against one would be an attack against all. >> admiral, before you go, as mentioned at the top of the show, it is the anniversary of an organization you once led, nato. it's being marked by foreign

ministers today in brussels. heads of state will do so in washington this summer. we want to get your thoughts about the legacy of the organization and why now perhaps more than ever, it's so vitally needed. >> yeah. what a wonderful question for a former supreme allied commander in nato, i'm proud to answer, jonathan. think of nato like a computer program. nato 1.0 was the cold war nato of the u.s. versus the soviet union. we needed those nato allies to stand toe to toe with the soviet union. nato 2.0 emerges after the 9/11 attacks. the united states was attacked, and all of our nato allies, every nation came with us to afghanistan to avenge that. and nato 3.0 is what we see today, brought on by vladimir putin now strengthened by the addition of sweden and finland to the north. together these 32 nations are

well over half of the world's gross domestic progress. they have 3 million troops under arms, almost all volunteers, 15,000 combat aircraft. it's an extraordinary alliance. it's standing up to vladimir putin, and we watched a few moments ago, and i think we were all moved by martin luther king's speech. it was extraordinary. there's another extraordinary speech in the middle of all this. it's ronald reagan. mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall. what gave reagan the strength to make that speech? the answer is nato. happy birthday, nato. >> and admiral, i want to put this map up again, and of course, you've talked about how the addition of sweden and finland turned the baltic sea to the baltic lake, but we've heard whining. i'm so sick and tired of donald trump and his allies trashing the united states, trashing the west, saying that we've seen our

best days, that it can only be great again if he's there. america is great. america has been great. america will be great. look at that map of nato, and all that -- that is the west. that is the west that supposedly had been in retreat. if you and i went back to 1989 and somebody showed us this map and said, this is what nato's going to look like in 30, tell them they're out of their mind, and it's not just the strongest military alliance in world history. admiral, i'm so glad you brought up the gdp because they hear all this whining about america failing, america falling, the europeans being wimps. you combine america's gdp with the eu's gdp, and like you said, in that nato alliance right there, we have over half of the entire globe's gdp.

well over $50 trillion, $60 trillion to russia's $1.3 trillion. it's not even close. china, $16 trillion, $17 trillion, and they're struggling to avoid the lost decade the japanese had in the 1990s. talk about the strength of america, the strength of the west and the strength of nato today. stronger than ever. >> stronger together is how we would phrase that, and it is a remarkable economic coalition, but militarily the united states obviously has the largest defense budget in the world. the second largest defense budget in the world collectively when you add it up is the budget of all those european allies. we do laps around the size or scale of both china and russia combined, and oh by the way in asia, the japanese, the south

koreans, the australians, the kiwis of new zealand, the singaporeans, the filipinos all want to work with nato together. so it's even beyond the european piece of this. it's really a global coalition which stands for democracy and liberty and collectively is to strong together against these authoritarian regimes. today, the 75th anniversary, again, happy birthday, nato. >> mika, together we cannot fail. >> right. >> which is why donald trump wants to break nato into a million pieces because that's what vladimir putin want. >> it's for anyone with eyes to see. harry truman of course, was president when this alliance was put together, and coming up, the grandson of harry truman will be on the show.

james stavridis, thank you very much for being on this morning. and still ahead on "morning joe," the manhattan district attorney's office hits back at donald trump's delay tactics in his upcoming hush money trial. plus, special counsel jack smith, harsh criticism of a ruling by the judge overseeing trump's classified documents case in florida. we'll have that. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. hat. you're watchg in"morning joe." we'll be right back.

with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be. so i hired body doubles. indoorsy tina loves a deluxe suite. ooh! booking.com booking.yeah

some business news, i read that elon musk wanted safety on his platform, x, so if you are worried about safety on a plot form with half a billion users, they've got two people to handle it. andrew ross sorkin has more on this. much more straight ahead and the fourth hour of "morning joe." much more straight ahead and the fourth hour of "morning joe.

do you have a life insurance policy you no longer need? now you can sell your policy - even a term policy - for an immediate cash payment. we thought we had planned carefully for our retirement. but we quickly realized we needed a way to supplement our income. if you

have $100,000 or more of life insurance, you may qualify to sell your policy. don't cancel or let your policy lapse without finding out what it's worth. visit coventrydirect.com to find out if your policy qualifies. or call the number on your screen. coventry direct, redefining insurance. we're traveling all across america, talking to people about their hearts. wh-who wants to talk about their heart! [honking] how's the heart? how's your heart? how's your heart? - it's good. - is it? aah, i don't know. it's okay. - it's okay! - yeah. - good. - you sure? i think so. how do you know? it doesn't come with a manual, and you like ooh, i got the 20,000-day checkup, right? let me show you something. put two fingers right on those pads. look at that! that's your heart!

that is pretty awesome. with kardiamobile, you can take a medical-grade ekg in just 30 seconds, from anywhere. kardiamobile is proven to detect atrial fibrillation, one of the leading causes of stroke. and it's the only personal ekg that's fda-cleared to detect normal heart rhythm, bradycardia and tachycardia. how much do you think this costs? probably in the hundreds. $79. oh wow! that could be cheaper than a tank of gas. checking your heart anytime, anywhere has never been easier. don't wait. get kardiamobile today for just $79 at kardia.com or amazon. i have active psoriatic arthritis. but with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, count me in. along with clearer skin, skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. there's nothing like clearer skin and better movement. and that means everything! ask your doctor about skyrizi today.

learn how abbvie could help you save.

trying to redirect a pass. clark, oh my! clark, wheels around. evades van lith, and drains it. because she's been so sick before that ucla game, that's how sick she was. clark. she's possessed. >> 43 past the hour. that was college basketball star caitlin clark of the iowa hawkeyes earlier this week leading her team to a big win against the lsu tigers during the elite eight round in the ncaa women's basketball tournament. clark had an astounding 41 points during the rematch of last year's ncaa title game advancing iowa to the final four which takes place tomorrow, and everyone is watching. from this year's historic ticket

sales to incredible buzz over the players like clark, angel reese, and juju watkins, there's a notion that it's the women who were the stars of this year's march madness, and here to tell us more, maggie mcgrath, editor of "forbes," with us, as well as huma abedin. you have been covering this story closely. why is it that this year seems to groundbreaking for women in sports? >> well, mika, the short answer, it all comes down to story lines. the public is more aware than ever before of the star power of players like caitlin clark and angel reese, and also the rivalries between these teams, and this is in part because of broken records. of course, caitlin clark broke the ncaa's all-time scoring record for women and for men

earlier this year. she's gotten a lot of attention, but it's also due to the increased marketing around these stars. the ncaa relaxed the rules around the name, image, and likeness deals in 2021, and players like angel reese have been tremendously successful in forging brand partnerships that are putting them in front of the general public. so that increased money and attention is driving time, money, and attention being spent on this year's ncaa tournament. we're seeing ticket prices for the semifinals for the final four averaging $1,900. that's almost triple compared to last year. >> wow. >> it's up $300 over the men's semis according to ticket iq, and i would note it would appear that these prices surged even more after this week's game between lsu and iowa which became espn's highest rated college basketball game ever with 12 million people tuning in. >> great stories. a lot of marketing. also phenomenal basketball being

played on the court. huma, there's also the notion that many of this year's players are breaking gender stereotypes. tell us about this and why it matters. >> you know, mika, there was this interesting research that came out of the gina davis institute that showed that when female athletes were asked to describe, you know, the terms most frequently associated with female athletes, it was terms like emotional, sexualized, patient, friendly, and that when they were asked what those conversely, what the terms were when describing male athletes, those terms were aggressive, arrogant, the best, competitive, strong, and just listen to what maggie just described about what caitlin clark and angel reese and all these women are showing us on the court. they have flipped those terms. these are -- >> wow. >> -- women who are out there, powerhouses, and inspiring, you know, it's like one of the things billie jean king would

remind us of. we judge women in such arbitrary fashions. you can't do that with this sport, or any sport really. it's scores and there's a game, and there's a win, and these women really are showing us the way. the final thing i'll note which i find interesting is that when young female athletes were asked what they were searching for in terms of their needs, over 80% of them said they wished they had more female references, and over 90% of them said they wished there were more female coaches and just watching these women on the court as we have been seeing and we'll see tomorrow, just shows us some incredible role models out in the world today. >> absolutely, and these women on the court are showing the country that they know their value, and they will aggressively go after it. >> absolutely. >> i want to bring into the conversation, another woman who knows her value and wants other women to realize theirs as well. that's the sweet spot, lauren wesley wilson, ceo of color com

corporation, a platform that addresses diversity and inclusion across the communications and media industries. she's out with a new book entitled "what do you need: how women of color can take ownership of their careers to accelerate their paths to success." i love the title, and in the book, you say, the question, what do you need? it's a simple one, but not usually a question women of color get asked. why is that, and why is this so important. >> what's your message to them in this book? >> well, good morning. thank you for having me. >> absolutely. >> i want women, i want us all to start asking the question to ourselves and to each other, what do you need? there are some basic needs as women that we need in the workplace. we need to be valued, seen, heard and understood, respected, and compensated. and so that is why i wrote this book and i can't wait for folks

to dive on in. >> all right. huma? >> lauren, i had the great pleasure of hosting a book party for you this week. >> it was so much fun. >> it was a lot of fun. i was -- first of all, i loved the powerhouse co-host committee that you had put together, and one of the things that you, you know, said. a lot of time -- you spoke a lot about the importance of women of color supporting other women, but what do you tell young women -- what are the four things you tell young women of color as they're trying to establish their careers, build their businesses, curious for your advice for them? >> yeah. i think we tell them that first, you need to know if this is an environment where you belong. if it is, you need to do good work. let's start with that because so often we want the success and the accolades without doing the work first. so let's do that. you need to make a name for yourself which is so important, and you need to build relationships. you need to build connections. you need to have the mentors, the sponsors, and this term i

coined in my book called god mothers and godfathers in your corner. >> lauren -- >> maggie. >> i'm speaking as the editor of the 50 over 50, our partnership with mika, and know your values. what's your advice for women over 50 who might have gone their whole career without asking themselves what we need? we need to ask ourselves that question. that's so important. what would you say to that demographic? >> it's not too late the women said there, you know, this book is for women over 50 as well, not just early careers. you can start asking this question now and you can really define what you need at any stage of your journey. >> the new book is entitled "what do you need"? and it's out now. thank you for joining us for

this know your value segment. don't forget, everybody, nominations for forbes and know your value's 50 over 50 list are open now. you can get all the details at forbes.com or knowyourvalue.com. just keep in mind, think about those women on the basketball court. did they ask someone to put the basketball in the basket for them, or do they do it themselves? nominate yourself. just step up and nominate yourself for the 50 over 50 list. coming up, the manhattan district attorney's office hits back at donald trump's delay tactics in his upcoming hush money trial. and special counsel jack smith's harsh criticism of the ruling by the judge overseeing the classified documents case in florida. that's next on "morning joe." cn florida. that's next on "morning joe.

why choose a sleep number smart bed? can it keep me warm when i'm cold? wait. no i'm always hot. sleep number does that. the queen sleep number c4 smart bed is only $1,599. save $300. shop now at sleepnumber.com (avo) kate made progress with her mental health... ...but her medication caused unintentional movements in her face, hands, and feet called tardive dyskinesia, or td. so her doctor prescribed austedo xr— a once-daily td treatment for adults. ♪ as you go with austedo ♪ austedo xr significantly reduced kate's td movements. some people saw a response as early as 2 weeks. with austedo xr, kate can stay on her mental health meds—

(kate) oh, hi buddy! (avo) austedo xr can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, or have suicidal thoughts. don't take if you have liver problems, are taking reserpine, tetrabenazine, or valbenazine. austedo xr may cause irregular or fast heartbeat, or abnormal movements. seek help for fever, stiff muscles, problems thinking, or sweating. common side effects include inflammation of the nose and throat, insomnia and sleepiness. ♪ as you go with austedo ♪ ask your doctor for austedo xr. ♪ austedo xr ♪

donald trump's hush-money case is moving ahead as scheduled despite efforts by the former president's legal team to push the trial to a later date. in a ruling yesterday, the judge overseeing the case rejected trump's request to delay the trial until the supreme court rules on his presidential immunity claims. trump's lawyers are trying another tactic, asking the judge to delay the trial because of prejudicial publicity. in a new filing, prosecutors say the former president has been the one to stoke and encourage publicity around the case and that he shouldn't be rewarded by an adjournment based on media attention he is actively seeking. joining us is andrew weissman. does this case appear to be on track to start on the 15th? >> absolutely. all signs are that judge merchan

has had it. all of the scheduled motions were supposed to be in weeks, if not months, ago. all the efforts you're seeing at the last minute by the former president to delay this trial have been rejected. there's now a pending motion about delaying the case because of pretrial publicity. that is going nowhere fast. both sides agree that pretrial publicity is going to continue. it's not a reason to put the trial off. it's a reason to make sure you're careful with the jury selection to find jurors who can decide just based on the facts. we are now 11 days away. you know, knock on wood, i think

there are no more delays that are going to happen. we're going to see jury selection begin a week from monday. >> so given that jury selection does begin on the 15th, a week from monday, what are the opportunities for team trump to create delays within that process? >> well, jury selection itself is a critical phase, not just because both sides need to make sure they're finding people who will be fair, but you also, as i said, really want to make sure somebody doesn't sneak on the jury for one side or the other to decide the case not based on the facts and the law. the judge is going to be very, very careful. a high-profile matter is always a problem. that, i think, will take certainly a few days of selection. it may take the whole week.

but the judge is clearly going to move this case along. once the trial starts, this is something that the judge has a very firm hand on. he is really not putting one the delay tactics. he's an experienced judge, who is making very quick, very thorough decisions. i just don't expect that we're going to see, once the trial starts, that kind of delay. final thought is, judges are very respectful of jurors' time. jurors are everyday citizens. they really do not like to see either side delaying a case, which is considered very disrespectful to the time of the jurors. >> the federal one in the state of florida where jack smith and his team of prosecutors have now

questioned the jury instructions that judge aileen cannon had planned to give to the jurors, jack smith calling the instructions flawed and wrong, saying they misconstrue the espionage act. >> unfortunately, people need to understand there's a rule in the federal rules of criticism procedure says that the trial judge, once a trial starts, has the power to enter a judgment of acquittal for the defendant and that decision cannot be appealed if the judge does that without letting the case go to the juror. that's the sword of damocles a trial judge has under the federal rules. what alarmed jack smith's team

is that the judge was saying that she is accepting buying donald trump's view that the presidential records act applies to these criminal charges. and to do that means that she would be able to, on that basis, dismiss the case once the jury is sworn. she is dead wrong. so her jury instructions gave two options to the parties, both of which were wrong, both based on the presidential records act. you don't have to be much of a lawyer to understand how wrong it is. the presidential records act is a civil statute. it is not applicable to a criminal case. it is not what donald trump is charged with. that is why you see this very strong filing by jack smith that said, this is dead wrong, we need a ruling that this is what you're either intending to do or that you are rejecting it. one way or another, we need a

ruling in advance of the trial, because if you stick to your guns and are doing what you're saying you're going to do, we are going to mandamus you, which means we're going to go to the 11th circuit to reverse this. this would be the third time they've gone to the 11th circuit to seek a reversal of judge cannon's rulings. >> andrew weissman, thank you for that. we're going to turn now to the developing situation in israel and the israeli strike that killed seven aid workers in gaza. the founder of the organization, chef jose andres, says it wasn't an accident, that his workers were targeted. joining us from tel aviv with more is raf sanchez. what's the latest? >> reporter: israel's military is already investigating the killing of those seven aid

workers. but now world central kitchen says that's not enough. they want an independent investigation conducted by a third party. they're calling on israel to preserve evidence. chef jose andres is demanding accountability. overnight, world central kitchen calling for an independent investigation into the israeli strikes that killed seven of its aid workers. >> some of the people that died were -- were my friends. >> reporter: the founder of the charity, chef jose andres speaking out, demanding answers. >> they were systemically car by car targeted. this was not a bad luck situation where oops, we dropped the bomb in the wrong place. we need to know the truth. we owe it to the palestinians

that died before them, everyone who died in the organization and every other humanitarian. we owe it to every child who has died. >> reporter: israel calling the attack a tragic mistake, saying the vehicles were misidentified in the darkness of night. >> it shouldn't have happened. >> reporter: jacob flickinger, a canadian father to a son. the president held a private meeting this week with muslim community leaders. one palestinian-american doctor walking out after just five minutes. >> out of respect for all of the people who have suffered, i need to walk out of the meeting. >> reporter: the "new york times" says the president told another attendee that the first

lady the urging him to end civilian casualties. but the white house says it will continue supplying israel with weapons, including massive 2000-pound bombs. families of hostages calling out during israeli parliament, smearing the glass with yellow paint as they demand the prime minister to make a deal to bring them home. >> reporter: president biden will speak with benjamin netanyahu, the first call since the killing of the aid workers. netanyahu, under pressure not just from the united states, but also here in israel. you saw that demonstration by the families of the hostages, but there have also been very large protests outside of netanyahu's residence, people calling for early elections. constitutionally, there don't need to be elections here in

israel until 2026. these people saying they have lost confidence in netanyahu. >> raf sanchez, live from tel aviv, thank you very much. joining us is jen psaki, john heilemann and jonathan lemire. >> we hear the president expressing growing frustration with benjamin netanyahu for some time. now you have benny gantz, not just a member of the war cabinet, but the most important member of the war cabinet, a guy who's extremely popular in israel, calling for early elections. we had an interview earlier this morning with an israeli who has no answers, absolutely no answers to any of the pressing

questions on what netanyahu has done, why he's worked with hamas, why he worked with qatar in the lead-up to the terror attacks. no answers. they keep saying, after the war, after the war. it sounds like the israeli people have had enough. certainly, though, i think president biden is getting there. what are your thoughts on how long it is before president biden makes his break a bit more dramatically than he has thus far? >> well, joe, as you all know, prime minister netanyahu is extremely unpopular in israel long before the war.

the israeli people are not fans of prime minister netanyahu. there have been protests in the street as well. if you're sitting in the white house right now, the challenge is how do you bring an end to this war, right? it's not by calling for a cease-fire. they're going to ignore that. you can argue, and people will, that should have been done earlier. i don't know that would have changed the trajectory here. the question is what leverage does the united states have. this is what they're discussing at a moment like this in the white house. there's leverage over aid and assistance, military aid and assistance. should it be conditioned? will that change the trajectory? i don't think we know at this point, because that would be the united states giving less military aid, a significant shift in strategy and what the united states has done in the past. will it change prime minister netanyahu's approach? this is all about his political survival in israel, continuing this war. that's what i think sometimes is

lost. >> jen, it's very easy for people to say the president should do "a," "b," "c." there's also the very real possibility in the white house, if the president turns on netanyahu aggressively, if the president says we're going to stop sending weapons, then netanyahu actually uses that to gain more power inside of israel saying, see, we have been abandoned even by the united states, we have to fight on. >> that's right, joe. i think that's important too. clearly the strategy that the united states is implementing at this point is not working to change the behavior of prime minister netanyahu, it's not working to end the war. so obviously something has to change. i think it's pretty clear they're discussing that, i think, in the white house and i hope in the white house in the situation room at this point in time. the question is what that will

be. there's a number of allies of president biden's in the senate, democratic senators and others who have been pretty outspoken about the need for conditioning aid at least as a consideration. that's obviously something that is being considered, should be considered. the question is, will that change the behavior, and what additional leverage needs to be put on prime minister netanyahu at this point in time to change the trajectory? but you're right, there's a calculation if you're the president or the national security team about what would prompt prime minister netanyahu to be more aggressive, what would prompt him to be less aggressive. obviously nothing has worked to date, but it's not as easy as it sounds to make that determination. >> john heilemann, jose andres actually told reuters this was a targeted attack. car by car, aid worker by aid worker, it was a targeted attack, it was done intentionally. i do wonder, as we look at these

seven workers killed and remember the 200 aid workers who have also been killed while trying to help the people of gaza who are starving to death right now in many parts and drinking saltwater, is this a turning point? is this a tipping point, john? >> joe, hard to know in the moment when turning or tipping points take place. i will say a couple things. one, jose andres is a figure who over the course of the past decade has emerged with an enormous public presence and moral stature. i don't know whether he's correct in saying this was a targeted attack. i'm not sure any of us do. i think the possibility for this to be a turning point is there because of the fact that he has such public profile and such moral stature.

no one is beyond question, but he has done so much good work in so many places over so many years now that he has enormous credibility with people and a credibility that extends beyond the narrow confines of political discourse. this is a guy who has a larger cultural imprint because of the work he's done. jen, you guys were talking in that last section about really important things like what the biden administration's next move might be and whether that will effect change in israel on the ground and what the political implications for netanyahu will be. all those are obviously super important questions. the tipping point for me is a different kind of tipping point right now. it has been the case that joe biden has tried to walk this delicate, narrow line, supporting israel as america's great ally and historic friend,

understanding the atrocities against it perpetuated by hamas, wanting to be supportive, understanding the security imperatives israel is facing, while at the same time recognizing the fact that this war has not been conducted in a way that has been consistent not with liberal values, but with american values. this is the tipping point i like to. it's a political tipping point. is it sustainable any longer for the biden administration to try to walk that line in quite that way, or are we at a place now where joe biden is starting to look feckless and weak not just to the problems with his base with a lot of parts of the democratic coalition that have wanted him to get tougher with netanyahu for months now, but in a broader sense? you know that on foreign policy as a political matter strength matters almost more than anything. the question of strong leader is a crucial component of getting reelected. i think if i were in the biden

administration's political operation right now, i would be very worried about the impact not just that it's having on the west, but whether it's having an impact in the middle of the electorate where joe biden is saying over and over again i'm frustrated and is not effecting any kind of change or taking a position. i think the political risks are mounting for the biden administration in a broader way than they ever have before in this conflict. >> no one knows that more than republicans, who are holding the president back in some ways on ukraine as he's navigating two hot wars at the same time on the world stage. >> and funding for israel. >> exactly. >> and funding for taiwan at a critical time. national polling shows president biden and donald trump tied in november's general election matchup. these are snapshots from the latest survey. trump and biden are in a dead heat at 43% each among

registered voters. robert kennedy jr. getting 2% or less. a marquette poll shows biden at 52%, trump at 48%, which is within the poll's margin of error. that's a reversal of the same polls in february. and the latest franklin and marshal college poll shows joe biden at 48% and donald trump at 38% among registered voters. that's within the margin of error as well. there are a lot of issues that could move voters one way or another between now and november. are there any trends you're seeing standing out? >> we're really in peak choose-your-own-polling adventure season right now. what we're seeing over the last month is that joe biden has been

closing the gap. if you're joe biden, the thing that is going to make you a little bit more optimistic is that trump's numbers really have not moved since four years ago, and those numbers still remain under 50%. the truth is that it looks like there is sort of a non-maga majority in this country. the question is whether or not, with all of these divisions within the party, can joe biden really rally all those people? can he really put down the threats of these third-party candidates. cornell west hitting him on palestine. rfk junior using that kennedy name to really bolster himself. the truth is, we really don't know. you see donald trump saying were you better off four years ago? >> nearly every day the biden campaign is ut ing out something saying, hey, four years ago

today donald trump did "x," and it's almost always a disastrous response. we haven't seen ten-point spreads really in any battleground state this entire year. it's a small sample size, but it's worth noting some of the other polls. there are trend lines. right now biden seems to have some momentum. the race is very close, we know that. these national polls are more or less a dead heat. biden has been up a little bit in wisconsin of late. there is a sense that the biden gain feels like they've got a lot of money on their side, and they're also saying they've got more voters to pick up. there are voters unhappy because of the situation in gaza or student loans or whatever the issue is. they feel like trump is already at his ceiling. they've said all along they feel like those independent swing voters will land with biden the more they hear trump all year

long and think to themselves, we can't go back to that. >> that franklin and marshall poll shows a ten-point lead. it certainly is an outlier. that said, we have so many polls coming out since the state of the union that have shown trend lines. as you know better than anybody, it doesn't show up immediately. >> right. >> right after the state of the union, republicans were like, ha, ha, the state of the union didn't make a difference. i've got to say, as far as defining moments go, that state of the union was a defining moment, because it blew up the lie that republicans have been pushing and that fox news pushes every day and that right-wing podcasters push every day that joe biden's out of it, that joe biden is not cogent. let me tell you something. joe biden showed 30 million

people that he could give better than he even gets. he was on top of his game. he made the republicans look foolish time and time again. i guess the shock for me is that republicans are always so stupid, first of all, to keep picking a loser as their nominee in donald trump. he just loses. but also they always underestimate joe biden up until the point when they lose. then they go, oh my god, we underestimated him again. >> they also underestimate the movement of voters on issues like abortion access and other things that are motivating people. in the post state of the union, it's important to remind everyone that after the state of the union, the republican talking point was that joe biden was on drugs and needed to take a drug test. that's what they shifted to. >> oh my god. >> remember that? i think the other thing that was an important marking point that was that same week or in the

week after is the realization among some voters -- and this may be some of what we're seeing in a little bit of movement -- is that it became clear that trump was the nominee. that is something that the biden team has been saying and will convey to anyone who asks them. they knew in advance of that in the primary that it still wasn't clear to voters. now it's clear trump is the nominee. to them, that's an opportunity for them to bring people home, to convey to people haley's not on the ballot and to use what they have as a financial advantage and also an organizational advantage over the next couple of months. so we'll see how that works. >> one other thing we've seen is, the biden campaign is doing something that nobody's done to donald trump and even the biden campaign didn't do it that much in 2020. they're getting in his face constantly and ridiculing him.

he says, hey i won my golf tournament. >> i don't think he gets it. >> he may not get the mocking, but it is constant. they're doing something too that i think, to jim's point on abortion,bsolutely devastating. they're using donald trump's own words as their most potent political weapon on abortion, on abolishing the affordable care act, you name it, on security. donald trump said, yeah, maybe social security could be cut. they are going after him and using his own words against him and mocking him in a way that i think is starting to show in the polls. >> absolutely. as he often says, don't compare me against the almighty, compare me against the alternative. he's making sure everybody knows the alternative. this comes from the top down. joe biden has a visceral hatred

of donald trump. this is more than just a political tactic. this is a raw emotional distaste and hatred for the former president coming from joe biden. >> alex thompson, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. coming up on "morning joe," fed chair jerome powell signals the central bank is still on track to cut interest rates this year. we'll talk to cnbc's andrew ross sorkin about what could impact the timing. plus, what we're learning about apple's new focus following a pivot away from its electric vehicle project. electrt

with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be. so i hired body doubles. 30,000 followers tina in a boutique hotel. or 30,000 steps tina in a mountain cabin. ooh! booking.com booking.yeah smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill.

don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection, liver or kidney problems, high triglycerides, or had a vaccine or plan to. sotyktu is a tyk2 inhibitor. tyk2 is part of the jak family. it's not known if sotyktu has the same risks as jak inhibitors. find what plaque psoriasis has been hiding. there's only one sotyktu, so ask for it by name. so clearly you. sotyktu.

i believe a four-day workweek is coming. you know, between the advent of ai, you know, generally, we hear from people that people are not as productive on fridays. i just think it's an eventuality. when it happens, we don't know. but more leisure for people means golf rounds will go up and interest will go up. i guess courses will be crowded. >> what are investments around that idea? >> well, anything around leisure, travel, experiences, all that type of stuff. >> okay. >> that is new york mets owner steve cohen telling andrew ross sorkin he believes a four-day

workweek is coming. of course, the folk writes itself. the mets don't even work four days a week. our friend phil griffin and your daughter are not happy. we are cheering for the mets' success. >> she can't even talk about it. >> we have so many people close to us who are mets fans, and it is painful. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin, who i suspect is a yankees fan. >> no. i was a mets fan. i was a mookie wilson, daryl strawberry, dwight gooden, that was my moment with the mets. >> are you still a mets fan? >> i'm still a mets fan. i know it's been a tough year. i think what steve cohen has proved is money does not buy love and it doesn't buy winning just yet. it's early in the season. >> you build from the ground up, you really do.

i think they learned that. it was a great lesson last season for the mets. you got to build the farm system. that's the way you win. we have so much to talk about. let's start by talking about tesla, though. i was looking at jp morgan. the target was downgraded from 130 to 115. they say that even after this stock has declined 59%, jp morgan analysts are saying it could decline another 33%. other analysts who have been bearish on tesla and correctly predicted their problems, say there's the possibility of a collapse to $14 a share. that's a really extreme position, but the bottom does seem to be falling out of tesla, in part because of vertical

integration, a great idea when things are going up, a horrible idea when things are going up. >> the bears on tesla, who are wrong most of the time for the last decade, are having a moment. the question is, of course, how long that moment will last or whether it will really take down tesla even more. there's always been this question about the valuation of tesla. it has always been an outsized valuation on sort of expectations that it's even beyond a car company, that it's something else, it's a technology company, an ai company, a robotaxi company. i think there is a little bit of a crash back to reality that maybe it is a car company, and at least in the immediate future, right now e.v.'s and the growth of e.v.'s have not taken off the way people have expected despite efforts by the government to push e.v.'s. having said that, they still have the largest market share in

the e.v. world. you could still be bullish on tesla. you just might not be bullish on these prices. >> over the last six months they've lost 35% of their value. the news yesterday was surprisingly bad, wasn't it? >> there's no question. the thing that i can't tell -- and i don't want to be the bearer of good news or bad news with tesla stock. we have watched it fall 50%, 70% and then rocket back 200%. it's been this remarkably volatile stock. i know everybody is focused on elon musk, and he is one of the most influential people in the world in owning "x" and everything he's involved in. by the way, yes, if tesla fails or becomes even more challenged, that creates even more challenges for him, because he's bankrolled so many of these

things using tesla stock. >> there are bigger market forces at share here, though, aren't there? again, the fall of demand for e.v.s on one hand. on the other hand, a lot more competition in the market against tesla. >> the competition is not really outpacing tesla at all. the truth is, gm and ford are struggling to sell their e.v.s. i think the only people selling e.v.s these days really is elon musk. i'm not willing to sort of make a blanket statement yet on which way this all goes. >> let's go from tesla to disney. quite a fight, but bob iger prevailed. take us through what happened and how iger won. >> bob iger winning against nelson peltz, an activist

investor who was pushed out of the company by bob iger. there was some real personal animus in all of this. the truth is nelson peltz, despite all of the handwringing and headlines, really never made a stand here in terms of how much the disney shareholders decided to back bob iger across the way. retail investors, the institutional investors and big folks involved in disney for so long, including people on the other side of bob iger, abigail disney ultimately came out in support of bob iger and george lucas and others. the big question is, even though activist investors have gone away, depending on where the stock is a year from now, if it doesn't move materially higher, he may be back all over again.

>> great challenges for disney, great challenges for all the media companies right now. talk about this proxy fight and why iger won and what the future looks like. >> andrew and i have discussed the streaming wars ad nauseam on cnbc. it's great to be able to discuss them here. a lot of what was at stake is whether iger had handled the transition from the traditional television world to the new streaming era, whether he handled it well, whether a controversial acquisition of fox television assets was something that is grossly expensive relative to what they actually acquired. you had issues of media executives getting huge compensation despite the fact that the media industry on the

traditional side has been declining. at the end of the day, bob iger had a lot of magic to him and convinced people he was on the right track, helped by the fact that the stock has been up very nicely over the last few months. some thought that was a function of nelson peltz and his activist fight. but the stock looked like it's going to hold up all right. >> there's been an extraordinary amount of speculation about interest rates. jerome powell spoke. tell us what he had to say about economic data that's all over the place. >> there was an expectation there might be three interest rate cuts. just a couple months ago, there was speculation we might have six interest rate cuts. now there's some speculation we may go even further.

the question is, if you lower interest rates, is that going to power the market higher? if there are no interest rate cuts, it actually says the economy is pretty strong. it's sort of this perverse back and forth. there's a fascinating article that's worth reading in the "wall street journal" that says what's going on, why is it that the economy is so strong, which is what this is really about, and why do people when they're polled say they think the economy is doing poorly? the misinformation that's been put out across the country about this issue is so shocking because of the way people feel versus the actual reality of the numbers. it's hard to tell people you shouldn't feel one way. i know that is true, but the numbers are shockingly going in

a good place. >> it's funny you brought that up. i read the article this morning. the first paragraph jumps off the page. let me read it really quickly. i'm so glad you brought it up. "in today's economy, voters' vibes battle with clear-cut data," is the headline. 74% of poll respondents said inflation has moved in the wrong direction this year. this assessment is startling, sobering and simply not true. this is not an opinion. this isn't something on which reasonable people can disagree. if hard economic data counts for anything, we can say unambiguously that inflation has moved in the right direction in the past 12 months. then he explains how things are going well with inflation and

other things. this is absolutely vexing that people are saying, how's your personal situation? oh, i'm doing great, 75% of americans. then in this "wall street journal" poll, the question of how are things going in your state? our state economy is doing really well. north carolina, 64%, 57% of wisconsin voters, 59% of georgia voters, pretty darn strong in most of these states. then you ask, how's the national economy? again, 63%, oh, it's horrible, it's terrible. this is bizarre. it's not connected to reality. the "wall street journal" is exactly right. it's so much misinformation spewed out there that people are

believing the lies even though their own economic situation is good. >> one of the questions said, do you believe that your retirement and savings and money in the market just in the last year is doing better or worse? they said worse. numerically, you can look at the stock market, which will invariably show you your retirement money is higher. yet, a majority of these folks are saying it's lower. it's literally telling you it's raining outside when it's sunny. >> john heilemann, this is one of the fundamental questions about this election, how are you feeling about the economy. it's vexed the biden white house for months now. they point to the numbers and say, look, it's pretty good. yet they're not getting credit

for it. there's this dichotomy where people feel good about their own situation, but don't feel good about it nationally, and they're not giving the president credit. >> part of the problem is that the economy is in a good place in a macro sense. that's 100% true. i think the problem is that the indicator that has changed and has gone in the right direction and has improved the least quickly and still nagging problems is on the question of inflation. we've seen a tapering off of inflation. but on the question of fuel costs, grocery costs, housing costs, people are still feeling it. that is a thing that affects everybody. it's not a thing that affects you whether you're rich, middle class, poor.

it hits everybody in a very direct way. one thing that's been a challenge for the biden white house is that it is never a successful political strategy to tell people that they are wrong in how they're feeling about the economy. you cannot argue people out of their feelings. you cannot preach to them about how, if you just understood this economic data better guys, you guys are wrong. your feelings are wrong. you have to figure out a way to say to them, hey, we know that prices are still too high. we know you're still feeling it in your pocketbook. now look at all the progress we've made. this is the thing we've still got to get after. give us some more time, because you know it's going to be worse with donald trump. he's not on your side. we're on your side. we've made some progress, but not enough. there's not enough, i think, of that acknowledge on the administration's part that there is a legitimate thing people

feel in america, which is prices are still too high. >> jen, i understand all of that and i agree with john. don't be condescending to voters and tell them the world is something that it's not. but when the majority of voters tell you their economic situation is great, when the majority of voters tell you things are going well in their state and then the overall question nationally is just horrible. i'm sorry, but if you looked at certain cable news channels you would think we were in the middle of a great depression, that illegal immigrants were racing through schools across america stabbing people in the face and that leprosy is going to be spread by migrants going across the border and that trans athletes are coming to your middle school to beat up your

sixth grade girl. turn it on any time. the economy is in free fall, migrants are coming to kill you. it's a constant, constant churning of these messages. it has an impact on polls 24/7. >> of course it does. i've never heard the leprosy one. that's a new one. >> you have not been listening close enough through the years. migrants are bringing leprosy to america. >> i do agree with what john heilemann just said. i remember to 2012 when barack obama was running for reelection, i was working on his campaign. the economy was not actually great at the time.

it was improving. hard to communicate about an improving economy, that things are less bad. but the message that worked was not about data. people don't vote on data. they vote about how they feel. some of that is what the cost of things are at the grocery store, can you buy a car, can you get affordable housing, which is obviously a huge problem now. part of it is conveying who you're fighting for as a candidate. that's the strongest economic argument. the whole media ecosystem out there is a huge problem, because the president has gone out in the country and done a lot of economic events. they don't break through. i think it's more about how people are feeling and how joe biden is going to make them feel and fight for them than it is about the data, which is what people continue to talk about

out there. tom rogers, you're focusing on the streaming wars, which has a lot of implications about how people get their entertainment and news. one unintended casualty appears to be local news. i spent 20 years in local news. back then when i left local news, they were cutting. there was so much cutting, i can't imagine the status of local news now. tell us why it matters and what's happening. >> well, as you saw from our discussion about disney and the broader streaming wars, all that gets a lot of coverage. what hasn't gotten much coverage is what happens in terms of local tv stations, local news, coverage of local and state election races and the candidates. what cord cutting has meant is that tv stations lose audience. by virtue of that, we have a real issue developing in terms of local news. we know what's happened when it

comes to local newspapers. we've lost about 3,000 local daily and weekly newspapers over the last 20 years. that's accelerating. we're losing two to three local newspapers every week now. that puts more pressure on local tv, both tv stations and cable news channels to fill the void and are relied on even more for local news coverage. when cord cutting happens, it's not only that that audience is lost -- and about 40 million fewer homes get their local tv stations now. when that happens, not only audience is lost, but the fees from cable operators that are a critical revenue source to support local news at those stations is lost also. so the question is, what can we do about that, because there's no turning back on the streaming era and cord cutting is only

increasing. in fact, satellite companies now are basically giving their subscribers an option. we'll give you a cheaper price if you still have satellite if you want to drop your local tv stations, something they've never done before. >> it's so important. when i started congress, there were probably six papers at the state of florida that had a tallahassee bureau. it made such a huge difference. many of them had washington reporters as well. they disappeared. when they disappear and now with local news, when that starts disappearing, then corruption goes up. there's not the accountability on the local level. >> yeah. people don't have a voice and you don't get investigative journalism. the new piece is online now for newsweeks. tom rogers, thank you very much.

and andrew ross sorkin, thank you. we, unfortunately, didn't get to the apple robot topic. >> next time. >> john heilemann, thank you as well. coming up, they stormed the capitol, assaulted police officers and plotted to murder fbi employees. and yet donald trump keeps calling the rioters hostages. we'll play for you what karl rove is saying about trump's promise to pardon the insurrectionists. plus, nbc's ryan reilly will show us new reporting on why some defendants still remain behind bars and the charges they face. "morning joe" will be right back. ey face "morning joe" will be right back >> tech: at safelite, we'll take care of fixing your windshield. but did you know we can take care of your insurance claim? that means less stress for you. >> woman: thanks. >> tech: my pleasure. have a good one. >> woman: you too. >> tech: schedule today at safelite.com. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

calling the rioters hostages. back. calling the rioters hostages back the future is not just going to happen. you have to make it. and if you want a successful business, all it takes is an idea, and now becomes the future. a future where you grew a dream into a reality.

it's waiting for you. mere minutes away. the future is nothing but power and it's all yours. the all new godaddy airo. get your business online in minutes

. 51 past the hour, donald trump continues to side with his

supporters who stormed the capitol on january 6th. the former president last night posted on truth social an audio clip from a choir of insurrectionist convictions singing the star spangled banner. meanwhile, former senior adviser to president george w. bush karl rove is calling out trump for supporting the january 6th rioters. >> what those people did when they violently attacked the capitol in order to stop a constitutionally mandated meeting of the congress to accept the results of the electoral college is stain on our history and every one of those sons of [ bleep ] who did that we ought to try them and send them to jail. one of the critical mistakes made in this campaign is that donald trump now has said i'm going to pardon those people because they're hostages. no, they're not. they're thugs. i'm a republican. i don't want to have a democrat

president. i want to have a republican president, but we're facing as a country a decision and everybody gets to make it, as to what kind of leadership we're going to have, and to me, it is a mistake on the part of the trump campaign to allow the president's impulses to identify himself with the people who assaulted the capitol rather than people who stand for law and order. >> you know, just great clarifying language of karl rove, a guy who has been a loyal republican his entire life, and he went on to say democrats should use january 6th as a political issue, damn right they should. and you know, jen, i was talking about other cable news channels. there are some of the most prominent hosts on a certain cable news channel who say that january 6th is not a big deal, and you know, mika makes me watch this other cable news

channel a lot just to say you need to see what they're saying, and we were watching one show, and there was somebody, a host that said, you know for some reason over on msnbc they actually think january 6th is a big deal. while other people on the panel were saying january 6th is not a big deal. let me tell you something, i have a lot of friends. i have family members who all in for trump in '16, they were all in for trump, in '20, and i've said it before, despite the fact he accused me of being a murderer, tried to get me jailed and executed, they still voted for trump. you might say what kinds of friends are those, well, perhaps one day i'll figure that out. that said, january the 6th moved a lot of them away from trump, a lot of them. the attempt to have me execute

didn't but this did. some of those people will wander back into trump's camp. we're seeing billionaires, just gross, gross political just cowards going back to trump, but i suspect karl rove's right. for a hell of lot of conservatives like me, for a hell of a lot of republicans, former republicans like me, we're not going to forget this. >> i think there's no question about that, joe. let me start with this. i mean, i worked on the kerry campaign. back in the day not too long ago, karl rove was like the evil devil reincarnate, right? he's there stating what i think most americans i would hope would agree with, which is that an attack on our capitol and what we're seeing in this video

footage right now is not who we should aspire to be as a country, right? i think that is a message that's not partisan. it's a message about patriotism and what our values are, and i do think it is central to what the biden campaign's messaging is and certainly should be. you know, we also underestimated, remember, back leading up to the 2022 election, not us, any of us particularly, but i think there was an underestimation out there of the impact of the democracy argument, standing up for democracy and how important it is to voters. that it was feeling too high fa fa luing or too highbrow. i'll take the karl rove advice anytime. >> i bet you never thought you'd say that. >> that's my thing, i know. >> i want to circle back and say you're exactly right. i want to undermine this fact for everybody who continues to mock and ridicule joe biden's campaign, we all remember in 2022 he gave the speech on democracy. they talked about abortion and

jen, i sat and listened to podcasts where one person after another mocked and ridiculed him for talking about democracy. abortion, only 5% of people care about that, and then on election night, guess what? once again, biden's critics were wrong. biden was right. >> right. and people were wrong about voters and what motivated, inspired, excited voters to go out to the polls in a midterm election. that's an important thing to remember. and they've been wrong about special elections too. so let's learn the lessons and bet on these issues mattering for 2024. >> so let's bring into this conversation nbc news justice reporter ryan reilly. ryan has new reporting tied to the insurrection titled "meet some of the violent january 6th rioters that donald trump keeps calling hostages." you've just uncovered an nbc

analysis here that host of these who have been charged on january 6th who haven't faced trial yet are out. they're not being locked up, only 15 currently being held, you know, before they face the courtroom. but talk to us about those who are in there. >> yeah, so these were individualized decisions for these 15 individuals. everybody else locked up has been convicted by a jury of their peers or by a judge. these 15 individuals have not yet been convicted but they are being held at the order of a federal judge because of some of these factors in their cases. one of them allegedly set off a bomb in the capitol. somebody threw a bomb in there, it exploded. people lost their hearing for days. another individual who previously stabbed a man to death fired off a gun into the air allegedly according to prosecutors. there's another individual, a january 6th defendant who was released and then plotted to kill the fbi agents who were investigating him, his co-defendant in that case has already pleaded guilty, admitted that there was a conspiracy here. so you know, there's this idea

that i think a lot of republicans want to come up with where they don't want to get in the specifics of these cases. they'd rather talk about it generically, when in reality people in jail have been accused of extremely serious crimes. in the case of these 15 individuals and for all of the others they're convicted criminals who have been convicted of the offenses they were charged. they either admitted to a court that they were guilty of what they were charged with or they were found guilty by a judge when they chose to go to a bench trial or by a jury, 12 individuals got together, looked at the evidence and said this is what happened. so to call individuals who are, you know, incarcerated and sentenced to prison by judges who were appointed by members of both parties, i would underline, hostages is really just not in any way reality. and so i thought it was important to focus really here on those 15 individuals who actually haven't been convicted of anything yet and lay out for the american public exactly why they are being held and the

well-reasoned conclusions that judges made about why they should be held pretrial. >> exactly. nbc -- >> that's such an important investigation. thank you for doing that, ryan. >> nbc news justice correspondent ryan reilly, thank you for that new reporting this morning. we want to mention ryan's recent book on the insurrection entitled "sedition hunters: how january 6th broke the justice system." and that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. right now on "ana cabrera reports," ratcheting tensions following the deaths of seven aide workers. president biden set to speak with israel's netanyahu today after reports an israeli cabinet member yelled during a phone call with u.s. officials. plus, a race against the clock in taiwan, hundreds of people believed to be trapped under the rubble after a powerful earthquake. also ahead, legal heisman, how the judge in donald trump's hush money case is blocking his