these technologies, and as i said, safe people in the long run. they're going to put people to work in those communities doing that work as well. those are going to be good paying jobs because of the structure of the inflation reduction act. >> those are good jobs, good paying jobs and they require good american labor to do. john podesta, the climate envoy as part of the white house, thank you for your time tonight. >> union labor, chris. >> that's right. that is all in on this thursday night, alex wagner starts right now. >> we do not talk about heat pumps, but, this is the stuff. >> i talk about heat pumps. minor correction. >> yes, i'm highlighting it because you deserve the credit for doing it, this is actually how things change. >> heat pumps. >> house by house, state-by- state, across the country, that's how things change.

today, in vanity fair, reporter gabe sherman published a feature story, detailing the terrifyingly competent trumpet 2024 campaign. there is a lot in the piece that is alarming. what jumped out as potentially the most alarming detail was that within the actual trump campaign, the person whose name is being floated to be trumps attorney general of the united states to run the justice department is this guy. >> we will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government but in the media, yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about american citizens who helped joe biden rig presidential elections. we're going to come after you, criminally, civilly, we'll figure that out. we're putting you on notice. >> that is cache patel, the former chief of staff to trumps secretary of defense, a man apparently on the short list for attorney general if trump retakes office. trump has not been shy about his desire to weapon eyes the doj and use it to go after his

enemies, and we should probably take him at his word about that. i do think he is serious. but don't just take it from me. last month, trump announced that all of the january 6th committee members should go to jail. and today, the l.a. times interviewed some of those members to ask how seriously they were taking those threats. congresswoman zoe lofgren said, one thing i learned on the committee is to pay attention and listen to what trump says mama because he means it. if he intends to illuminate our constitutional system and start arresting his political enemies, i guess i would be on that list. the paper also interviewed congressman adam schiff, who trump has made one of his top political enemies. he told the times he is having real-time conversations with his staff about how to make sure he stays safe if trump follows through on his threats. so, the danger here is apparently very real. and the biden administration is

doing something about it. right before trumps essential future attorney general cache patel told steve bannon that he would use the government to go after trumps enemies, patel laid out what he thinks would need to happen within the government to empower him. he'd have to clean house. >> do you believe that you can deliver the goods on this, in pretty short order the first couple months so we can get rolling on prosecutions? >> yes, we got the bench for it, you know those guys, i'm not going to say names right now so the radical left wing media can terrorize them, but the one thing we learned in the trump administration in the first go round is we've got to put in all american patriots top to bottom. >> today, the biden administration issued a new rule. an attempt to trump proof the white house. the rule strengthens job protections for federal workers so trump can't just clean house and replace everyone in the

executive branch with maga hat wearing trump supporters. trump can still try to go after his enemies and still try to install someone like cache patel is the attorney general to do so, but that attorney general would have a much harder time going full banana republic if the people actually carrying out the work under him were career government workers, and not political stooges. that's the good news. that's a small silver lining, here. there's a still adults in the room and the biden white house and they are trump proofing it in case trump gets back in office. the bad news is, there is a much more immediate threat coming from trump, right now, and it is highly unclear what anyone can do about it. dear member the guy who rammed his suv into the fbi field office in atlanta on monday? authorities haven't released an official motive yet, but in the past 24 hours we may have gotten a clue. a few years back, an account believed to be the suspects posted, i love you, donald trump. if you feel like you're having deja vu, that is entirely

reasonable, but this guy is actually different from the guy who attacked an fbi field office in cincinnati two years ago. but that guy also apparently loved donald trump, and was enraged that the fbi had searched mar-a-lago. both of these attacks came after months of trump demonizing the fbi and telling his followers things like, the fbi and the justice department have become vicious monsters controlled by radical left scoundrels. trump is not just going after federal law enforcement, though. he is going after the prosecutors and the judges were trying to hold him accountable. nbc news cannot report the police have filed felony charges against a man who has allegedly been sending threatening voicemails to the new york attorney general letitia james, and judge arthur and gore on. ag james is leaving this a against trump in new york for financial fraud, and the judge oversaw that case. the man allegedly sent the messages like mark my words, i will kill you if you dare to

permanently steal trumps assets or his property. that kind of threat to a prosecutor and the judge overseeing a case involving a former president of the united states, that should be front page news. but it is not, anymore, because the idea that trumps followers would threaten the people he labels as enemies has become totally normalized. this week, the judge in new york's trump husband a case expanded a gag order against trump because trump was singling out and lying about his daughter. but, somehow, despite literally being reprimanded in court just days ago for his threats, somehow trump still have the gall to post this a few hours ago today. trump called special counsel jack smith arranged and said that he should be sanctioned or censured for the way he is attacking judge aileen canon.

trump is referencing the fact that jack smith disagreed with judge cannon in a legal filing. that is it. that is the sum total of what donald trump considers an attack when the attacker is someone other than donald trump. what makes that post so particularly unhinged is that the attacker here is very clearly donald trump. trump demonizes people and then his followers threaten or attack them, and trump doesn't disavow any of it. the pattern is incredibly clear, and that pattern has poisoned our national politics. trump has normalized the idea that an appropriate response to political disagreement is physical violence. earlier this year, reuters did the math and found that serious threats against federal judges, threats that are so serious they trigger an investigation by the u.s. marshals, those threats have doubled since 2021. serious threats against federal prosecutors also more than doubled. the director of the u.s.

marshals said that in the past, judges mostly based threats from people who were upset about a judges decision in their own cases. now, he said, many more are coming from people enraged because of politics. joining me now is andrew wiseman, former fbi general counsel and co-host of the essential msnbc broadcast, prosecuting donald trump. to an ordinary citizen, this is disturbing. it should be disturbing. to someone who's been inside the trenches of the justice department, the fbi who knows judges, who knows court rooms, i can't imagine how this lands with you. first, as you see these judges become the object of trump's ire, and really targets for violence, what do you make of it? and how chilling is this to the judicial system on hold? >> to put it in context when i started as prosecutor, i did organized crime work in new york city. something you did not have to worry about when you did organized crime work, because

my friends would say, were you ever worried? no. you know what the rule was an organized crime? you do not go after anyone in law enforcement. for simple reasons. was it because they are so moral. these people signed up to commit crimes. it was, what's the point of that? you're only going to attract more attention, and we were fungible. it would be another person who would come in and prosecute, and you know have all of this heat attracted to you. so you just didn't think about it. i think your opening talking about how this is normalized, and that after it happens, if you want a really good sign of the intent of donald trump, it's the same we look at january 610 you say, you want to know what his intent was? think about what he did afterwards. he wasn't saying this is terrible, if you see what happened, and you see the fbi being attacked, you see judges

being attacked, and you see people taking the call and response, if that was not the response you intended, you would be saying absolutely don't do this. what i meant was, first amendment, i disagree with what jack smith is saying. i disagree with the judge's ruling. a lot of us have strong views about the supreme court and its rulings. that is fine. what is not is obviously resorting to violence, and it's been completely normalized, i think, the fbi has its hands full dealing with this. and making sure, one thing i would note, the attacks on judges, it's bipartisan attacks. there are attacks against republican and democratic judges, and not just words, but indeed, in their being prosecuted. that's the kind of thing that has to be much more front-page news, and has to be like the january 6th investigation. it needs to be something that people take seriously, and call

out politicians who don't say you've got to stop this. >> i want to talk about the attacks from the left. in this particular case we're talking about a candidate for president who is directly fomenting violence against everyone in the judicial branch. in his expanded gag order, against a former president of the united states who would like to be president again, and you noted this on the podcast, about this moment, and the threats these judges are withstanding. he says, this pattern of attacking family members of presiding jurist and attorneys assigned to his cases, trumps cases, serves no legitimate purpose. merely inject fears in those called to participate in the proceedings that not only they, but their family members as well are fair game for the defendants vitriol. why don't the judges, judge merchan expanded the gag order to include family members, why don't they say, i'm off limits? they are the focus of trump's ire. is it just perceived

neutrality? it doesn't seem practical at this point. >> i agree with you, but if you're asking me where do you i think it emanates from? i think it emanates from this feeling that, i'm going to do my duty, i can take, i can deal with it. it's an attack on me personally, and i don't want to inject myself into the process. i need to maintain being objective and fair and not taking sides. and the more i can do that, the better, especially when the risk is just me. i think that judges are seeing, including in this clip that you just read, to allow it to go on with respect to anyone in the process sends a message to everyone in the process that this is allowed. so even though you say, don't do this to witnesses, don't do this to jurors. >> if you're withstanding and you're suggesting it's a new

norm. >> the other piece of it that would seem to have profound effects on the judicial system is jury selection and witnesses. talk to me a little bit about that. already, that's a process that is complicated, in this day and age, and i wonder what your assessment is of, you're going to be sitting on the trump trial or you are a witness with valuable information about donald trump's criminal acts, are you really going to come forward? >> picking a jury in a high- profile case, which i've done it, nothing quite like this, has distortion effects on both sides. you have people who do not want to be in the limelight. i do not want to suffer any, i'm scared. all of that comes to play, so that you don't have that segment of the populace serving. by the same token, you have some people who most people don't want to serve on a jury, with a high-profile matter where there is strong opinions, you have some people who are saying i don't want to be on it

and other people where the biggest fear on both sides is that someone is going to lie, sneak on and say they can be there when they actually have firmly held views, and those phenomenon, particularly the latter, is a real concern in a high-profile case. >> something like this. you mentioned this when we first started talking, when you are working in the fbi, there is no standard guiding procedure for what to do with, are you a target of a former president who is going on trial? there is no expectation that you're going to become a target. i would assume there's no protocol, there is no, no guard rails in place for witnesses, jurors, prosecutors. is the justice department even manned in a way to offer protection or some sort of insurance to these people? it doesn't sound like it is at all. >> i'd say because it's such a new phenomenon, we understand certainly, we saw that donald

trump was going to attack prosecutors. he was going to attack the media. but it was as sure as these cases were brought, you knew that the judges and the judicial system was going to have its turn. because donald trump is going to vilify, as he plays the umpire, he sits there and says, if i win, it's fair, if i lose, it's not fair. he's attacking all the judges except for judge cannon, because he thinks he's faithful to him. so i think this is such a new phenomenon, i'm not sure the justice department has a team that is devoted to, unfortunately, >> witness protection peer! witness protection, not just the witness protection program but the idea that you're going to have a team that looks at attacks on witnesses, attacks on jurors, attacks on prosecutors, and that is their main focus. it's not parceled out. you have a group that's doing

this. unfortunately, really, it's time peer >> i do want to talk, quickly, about, quickly, about the larger issue of justice. as you point out there are attacks from the left for people, from people who believe the supreme court has done something appalling, abominable, un-american and needs to be punished. wrongly, physically. because of their opinion on roe v. wade, for example. that betrays an un-investment in the court, or a cynicism about the court, as acting from purely political motives. on the other hand, you have trump saying the court is acting politically, it's a witch-hunt. the fact that you have actors on both sides now casting versions on the justice system seems like a big problem for american society. >> it is. the problem is that you don't have enough people speaking out, in defense. i kept on remembering when mr.

pelosi was attacked, i thought, this is so abominable. that of course this is going to be widely condemned. i'm naove. and it's the same phenomenon, where you sit there and say, who could possibly be for this? it's such a sign of where we are as a country that people don't understand that you can have violent disagreements in terms of how you talk about something, and you can really care about an issue to your core, but that's where it ends. you voice those concerns, the idea that it's manifesting itself in violence without, then, society saying that's unacceptable. and that is, that is where there is such, i really do think trump is completely normalized what we're seeing in washington, what we're seeing

mostly on the right, but at times on the far left and far right. which is making it normal and acceptable to engage in this kind of behavior. >> that's what he's doing in his post-presidency. the question is, if he returns to office, what then? andrew wiseman, please do not leave yet, i have more to ask you about including this burning question. can donald trump really declassify documents with his mind? could that defense hold up in court? today seemed like we got an answer. also tonight, i'll talk to voting rights activist and founder of verified, stacey abrams, about what democrats need to do to get people to the polls. that is coming up, right after the break. the break. but we also write. [szasz] we take care of ourselves constantly; it's important. we walk three to five times a week, a couple miles at a time. - we've both been taking prevagen for a little more than 11 years now.

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>> if you're the president of the united states, you can declassify just by saying it's

declassified, even by thinking about it. >> in 2022, we wondered how trumps i declassified it with my mind defense would work in a trial. today we got a glimpse of the answer. just a glimpse, today the judge overseeing his classified documents trial, judge aileen cannon, rejected trump's request to dismiss the charges against him. trumps lawyers argue that the presidential records act gave trump the power to retain classified documents after leaving the white house, thereby protecting him from prosecution. he could declassify them just by thinking about them. in a three page ruling, she said the presidential records act does not provide a pretrial basis to dismiss any of the charges. while that may seem like cannon is ruling in favor of special counsel jack smith who has argued repeatedly that the presidential records act has nothing to do with trumps criminal prosecution, judge cannon very much left the door open for the former president to use the presidential records act as part of his defense. during the trial. that means jurors or the judge herself could acquit trump

based on trumps interpretation of that law. back with me is andrew wiseman. andrew, how are you interpreting eileen's cannon move? why not just decide whether the presidential records act is a legit line of defense? >> which is exactly what jack smith said he wanted. he said, just make a decision. we say that it doesn't apply at all, we want a pretrial ruling. the rules say they're entitled to a pretrial ruling. just decide one way or the other for good. not the part, not halfway, which is, i'm deciding pretrial that it doesn't apply. jack smith is like, who cares about that? i care what you're going to say at trial. the big thing that people need to understand, to be in the weeds for a moment. once the jury is sworn, double jeopardy attaches. meaning, if the jury acquits, or if the judge acquits, it's

over. especially, if the judge has the power once the jury is sworn to say, i'm entering a judgment of a critical. and it can be on a cockamamie idea that the presidential records act. jack smith is saying, i need a decision that it doesn't apply. not just pretrial because, no one is deciding anything about guilt or innocence pretrial. that's going to happen at the trial, i need to know what your view is at the trial. why is she not doing it? as jack smith said, with that ruling, if i disagree with it i have appellate rights. i can go to the 11th circuit. she is doing whatever she can, in my view, to prevent an appeal. >> there is without getting into all the excerpts, it's a short filing, but, she uses some very strong language, she calls jack smith's position unjust. she basically dirty harry zit and is like, go ahead, make my

day if you want to go to the 11th circuit and appeal this. what do you make of that posture in the context of all of this? >> you have to remember, she has been reversed twice by the 11th circuit in scathing language. she really hasn't acquitted herself well, whether you think that it's from an experience, whether you think it's because she's partisan or both. my opinion is it's both. that she is both an experienced, and she is consistently ruling in unlawful ways for only one side. when i say unlawful, that isn't just my opinion, that is the 11th circuit. so, i think that she is not helping herself in this short opinion by using language that is not really becoming oven art of three-judge and i also think it can be fairly attacked as being inaccurate. that is a charitable way to describe it.

>> does that hold water with the 11th circuit? do you think of jack smith can get to the 11th circuit through a writ of mandamus or appeal without getting into technicalities, do you think he finds a sympathetic audience? >> that's where it's going to very much depend on the panel. 11 circuit is made up of a number of judges, a random group of three is chosen. you don't really know who that is before hand. that, i can't answer. but, you always say to yourself, if i'm dealing with judges who are rational and fair-minded, and you have to take that as a basis, it's very hard to look at what she has done and say, that's the correct legal answer. the pra is a civil statute. >> came about after watergate, was not intended for this use. >> was intended for the opposite. here's the really key thing,

it's a civil statute, this is a criminal case. civil statutes don't apply. he's charged with criminal. exactly. >> andrew, we were talking about confidence in the judiciary, and i'm all for believing in institutional integrity, but judge cannon. she tests the bounds of that everyday. andrew wiseman, it's great to see you. still to come this evening, we will talk to obama's former white house medications director, dan pfeiffer, about what biden is saying about whether anything is about to change. plus, a controversial call for democrats to rethink their support for voter registration drives. we're going to get reactions from stacey abrams, next. , nex and sneeze-proof. and sweat-proof. they're leakproof underwear, from knix. comfy & confident protection that feel just like normal. with so many styles and colors to choose from, switching is easy at knix.com

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>> here's the thing. all i need you to do is remind people about how important this election is coming up in november. if you can ask people to go to vote.gov to register to vote, or check their registration status, that would mean a lot. >> that's easy. i got you. >> that was vice president kamala harris and the people asked one at the naacp image awards, urging a audibly enthusiastic black audience to make sure they are registered to vote this november. the democratic party has long been focused on voter registration as a core principle, and it has benefited from nonpartisan voter registration efforts in years past. but, the washington post

reports this week that there is a confidential strategy memo circulating among top democratic donors warning that if they want democrats to win in november, they need to rethink their approach to voter registration. the memo reportedly sites polling data showing that the share of unregistered citizens who would likely register as democrats has declined. in the share of unregistered citizens who would likely register as republicans has risen. to the point where the two groups are almost even. it also reportedly sites polling showing that trump is popular among unregistered voters. the post reports that the memos author told democratic donors that if they were to blindly register nonvoters and get them on the roles, they would be distinctly aiding trump's quest for a personal dictatorship. the author reportedly called on donors to focus their spending instead on specific, heavily pro-biden populations like black americans. joining me now is the perfect

person to discuss this, voting rights activist, stacey abrams. also the author of, can you believe this, 15 books. include in the political thriller, robe justice, which is out now in paperback. stacy, it's great to see you. wow, your prolific authorship, we are going to get to in a moment. but first, i wonder what you make of this memo. i feel like there's a lot of conflict that democrats may feel when learning about it. >> i think it raises an important point about the efficacy of voter registration, but i think it misses the larger picture. which is that we should have nonpartisan registration because that's how we protect democracy. getting people to own their right to their citizenship, to their ability to cast a ballot and participate in elections should be a nonpartisan effort by everyone. we should want more americans

involved. the partisanship piece comes in where we want them to actually get the things they need, and my party, i believe, does a better job of delivering outcomes that communities need. however, the misunderstanding that, and the tension we're hearing is that we see this as an either/or. the work that we did in georgia, was actually never simply about voter registration. that got the greatest share of the attention, we recognize that voter registration is like teaching someone how to drive or giving them, the keys to a car. you have to teach them how to drive and tell them where they're going. those component pieces, registration is giving them the keys, then you have to be voter education to make certain they understand who is in charge, what's happening, and then you engage them saying, here's where we want to go. now that you have these pieces. so well i do appreciate the tension embedded in this argument, nonpartisan or

partisan, what we should be focusing on is how do we engage nonvoters who have, to this date, believe their voices didn't matter enough to put their names on the roles. that means we've got to stop these reductive arguments, and instead focus on the broader outcomes. i will say the success we had in georgia is actually proves that this works. because what we were able to do over the course of starting in 2014 with registration, continuing in 2018 and beyond with engagement work, we built an electorate that shows what can happen. if you look at the post 2016 election cycle, in georgia you had 525,000 african americans, black voters who were considered super voters, they voted in almost every election. post the work we've been able to do, that number is closer to 870,000 people. a 65% increase, that did not happen simply because more people got on the roles. it happened because they got on the roles, we kept them

engaged, we made certain they understood who was responsible and what their power was. what i would urge the democratic power to do is to lean on the ordinary success of the biden/harris administration, what we have done but we cannot get distracted by whether or not we should engage more people in our democracy. >> i do wonder what you found in that first step where you're giving people keys to the car. their level of interest in actually driving it, for lack of a better building on your metaphor. in 2016, computed research as to unregistered voters and what motivated them to be unregistered why they were unregistered. 44% said they didn't want to vote, 27% said they hadn't gotten around to vote, 25% said no candidate or issue inspired me and 6% said i don't know how. the i don't know how would seem to be the easiest ones to get, it's a matter of this is how you turn on the ignition. the largest share, the i don't want to vote, and no candidate or issue inspired me, what is

that conversation like? what are democrats or anybody interested in a functioning representative democracy, what is the beginning of that lesson to get people to be engaged? as you found it in your experience. >> we know that i don't want to vote often is an easy shorthand for, i'm angry, i'm upset, i'm despairing, or people who represent we don't actually hear me. i created two organizations in the wake of the 2015 election. their fight which is focusing on protecting the infrastructure of democracy, making certain that once you get someone registered, governors and legislators can't have them thrown off the roles or have them removed through mass challenges, which is what governor kemp and his cronies are doing in georgia right now. it's also about making sure that they connect the dots. often i don't want to vote these, i don't know not how to vote, but i don't know who to vote for or why voting matters. i created a second organization that focuses on connecting the dots, whether it's we use the

census as our point of entry, but we give them pamphlets, we explained this is the issue that you're concerned about in your community. here's who is responsible. if we don't do the hard work of connecting the dots, not simply in election years but year- round, we lose the opportunity to build that representative democracy. that's why i'm so bullish on what has been accomplished by the biden administration. we have stories to tell. we can explain why you should want to vote. but you have to begin by asking people not just, do you want to vote, but why don't you want to vote? what holds you hostage, what are you angry about? what would make you excited about being part of it? one of the ways you get inspiration is by asking people what inspires them. we keep hoping it's going to be this manifest moment, but it's often starting with how can i help. what do you need, how can we work together to get you there?

>> you've written 15 books, you have all this free time between trying to save democracy, et cetera. what is the narrative from a storytelling perspective? there seems to be a choice of talk about democracy if your joe biden or talk about economic policy. from a storytelling perspective, what is the narrative this campaign should be focusing on, if your joe biden? >> i think they're doing it. today was the announcement of a record $27 billion being invested in climate action, specifically in helping low income communities access the clean energy technology that so many others can take for granted. that's going to solve real problems. i'm part of a project in georgia where we were able over christmas to get someone ewa hot water heater. which sounds small but if you love without running water, for two months, and someone on the eve of christmas says i can help you and make sure your house is warm and safe and comfortable in your bills aren't going to go up, they're

going to want to know why, and they're going to tell friends and neighbors. that's what joe biden has accomplished. we should be telling that story but we should be asking others what else do you need? when you answer the question what else do you need, ask them to decide who will actually deliver, who will deliver pontification and false promises, and who has proven that they will deliver the goods? that's the question and the conversation we need to have between now and november. >> stacey abrams, such a pleasure to hear from you, stacy. inks for your time tonight. >> thank you for having me. coming up, president biden said he ratcheted up the pressure with benjamin netanyahu today, tonight there has been movement on that front. we'll have more on that coming up after the break. break. everyday can help. metamucil's psyllium fiber gels to trap and remove the waste that weighs you down... so you can lighten every day the metamucil way. are you still struggling with your bra?

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it's time you got into a wireless bras from knix. the ultimate in comfort and support, in sizes up to a g-cup. visit knix.com to find a wireless bra you'll love. inflection point. that is how one u.s. official described today's phone call between president biden and israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. according to a white house readout of the call biden pushed for an immediate cease- fire, and for the first time ever, suggested that the u.s. may condition its aid to israel unless netanyahu implements a series of specific, concrete, measurable steps to address the protection of civilians in gaza. the president also labeled israel's recent killing of seven aid workers from world central kitchen as unacceptable. tonight there appears to have been some movement.

the white house says netanyahu has agreed to open new paths for humanitarian aid into gaza, at the presidents request. joining me now is dan pfeiffer, former white house human occasions director, and co-host of pod save america. thank you for being here. what do you make of the readout of this call, and i guess what we'll call one of the result of it, the opening of this aid corridor or. >> i think the language inflection point is exactly right. this is a real change in how the president plans to use as leverage against, his leverage with prime minister netanyahu to get israel to change how it's handling civilian casualties in gaza, and aid for the people in gaza. the proof will be in the pudding, will israel follow through on this? and if they don't will the president be willing to condition and going forward, weapons going forward.

tonight was a very important moment in delivering results, that's a good thing. >> i wonder, we get these leaks or reporting that biden is infuriated with netanyahu and that's unacceptable and he wants an immediate cease-fire, et cetera. that's not unimportant, it is significant in terms of the broader posture, but there's reporting that on the same day that seven world central kitchen workers are killed, the white house approved the transfer of thousands more bombs to israel. that was approved by congress earlier, but, how much does that undercut biden's position, his message, and how should they be handling those clashing realities? >> i think the shift in rhetoric today and the shift in actually saying, if you do not do a better job than we are going to reassess how we're helping you is the result of a very real and challenging political position for the president, where he was saying things, expressing in the background leaks from his anger and frustration, and then prime minister netanyahu was sticking

his thumb repeatedly in his eye, and that made the president look ineffective in the eyes of the public. it was very frustrating to people within his own party who have a good-faith disagreement with his policy approach, so what my hope is that this represents a change in policy. this is ultimately not a messaging problem. is not that the president wasn't saying the right thing. it was a policy problem. the decision the president made that sticking close to netanyahu would give him the best ability to influence how israel connected the war was not proceeding as they had hoped. that israel was not doing what the white house wanted them to do, so there was a shift, and if today's phone call represents a change in u.s. positive policy, that's a positive thing. substantively and politically for the president. >> let's talk about the politics, i agree with you that this was driven by policy and biden's own instincts about what to do on this.

is born a political pot caused for it among young people and voters of color. as a political strategist, what has been the constituency that biden has been concerned about, up until the point of taking a more aggressive stance? is it independent swing voters, is it moderate republicans? what do you see as a political calculation thus far? up until tonight? >> i don't think it was a political calculation. it was bad politics domestically on every dimension. it wasn't actual legitimate decision he made, because this was the best way to influence israel's, he is getting hammered from the right, he's getting hammered from the left, he is locating less affected than he would like in the middle, so, as a domestic political person and the white house dealing with national security issues this is a frustration i felt all the time. is the policy decided on by the president by his often put,

what they believe in the best interests of the united states globally, global security and homeland security and those things, but were often about politics. i don't believe the president's position here was appealing to these voters over these voters, it's what he thought was the best and their political consequences, what i now think is the policy isn't working so he's changing policy. the change in policy will be better politics but it's a policy decision being made. >> as biden grapples with this in a substantial event had on fashion, donald trump is out there saying, as it pertains to the conflict in gaza, get it over with. that's the degree of detail he's offering the american public as he runs for office for a third time. dan pfeiffer, thank you for talking about this topic with me. appreciate it. >> it's great to meet with you.

>> coming up, while he was president donald trump oversaw the separation of thousands of children from their parents at the border. tonight he seems to be signaling a willingness to do it again. only worse. in his second term. that story is next. next. ay. and she could track us and see exactly when we'd arrive. >> woman: i have a few more minutes. let's go! >> tech vo: we came to her with service that fit her schedule. >> woman: you must be pascal. >> tech: nice to meet you. >> tech vo: we got right to work, with a replacement she could trust. we come to you for free! schedule now for free mobile service at safelite.com. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ (♪♪) ohhh crap, that's a really good gift. now we gotta get france something. wait! we can use etsy's new gift mode! yes, what do the french like? ...anyone? cheese... they like cheese! brilliant. done.

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>> that was the sound of one of trumps hallmark immigration policies. the sound of children being ripped away from their families at the u.s./mexico border. during the trump administration more than 5000 families were separated that we know of. the trump administration took zero steps to ensure those families could be reunited, and about 1000 children remain separated from their families. the cruelty did not and there. during the term of administration immigrants were detained in appalling conditions. children were kept in cages, court filings describe migrant children being given rotten sandwiches and drinking water that smelled like chlorine. outbreaks of disease went untreated, at one point voice for the administration argued in open court that they shouldn't have to provide toothbrushes and soap to migrants in their custody. treating human beings, treating children like animals.

that should be the great shame of the trump administration. but instead, trump has made it part of his platform for re- election. >> the democrats say please don't call them animals, i said no, they're not humans, they're animals. i'll use the word animal, that's what they are. >> donald trump and at campaign rally. trump has been teasing a more radical vision for immigration in his second term, one that includes mass detention camps and deportation. well trump has stopped short of saying whether he would resurrect his family separation policy, there are signs he plans to do just that. in recent interviews trump has tried to rebrand his federal kidnapping program as a success. >> we did, a lot of people didn't come, it stopped people from coming by the hundreds of thousands, because when they hear family separation they say, we better not go and they didn't go. >> tonight nbc news reports that trump is attending a

gullah sponsored by an anti- immigration advocacy group featuring several of the key architects of his family separation policy. so, as trump looks to make immigration the central issue of this next election, it's important to remember what america's immigration system really looked like under donald trump, and how much is still left to repair. things like the unsafe open air camps near the southern border were migrants, including children are left in the hot desert for days. last night a federal judge who consistently ruled against the trump administration's treatment of migrants ordered border patrol to try to solve that problem by providing safe and sanitary housing for those migrants. one of the things donald trump might try to do in a second term is shutdown that judges ability to help those migrants. he tried it in his first term and he is bound to try again. that is our show for tonight. now it is time for the last