that we've seen just in last few months and maybe that is a more heightened awareness of the reporting. but it doesn't inspire again a lot of confidence that boeing is doing things right. certainly not in this moment. so they've got to contend with that. thank you very much. we appreciate it. and that is going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone, it is 4:00 in new york. with just six days to go before the tart of the new york versus donald j. trump, the kitchen sink strategy is being met by a judiciary more than willing to play whack-a-mole is swatting done his attempts to stop this trial from ever starting. a judge rejected his request to halt the case. while' peels that gag order that

prevents him simply from lashing out at court staff, prosecutors, witnesses, jurors, and the family members of the district attorney as well as judge. at a hearing earlier, prosecutors argued that trump's threats go way beyond exercising one's first amendment rights and they said that the threats against the staff and forced the nypd to get involved and even without dangerous rhetoric, the d.a. is having difficulty in getting witnesses to testify since they all know ahead of time that trump will come after them when their names are made public. today's decision is the second time in just 24 hours that a new york court has handed trump a legal defeat. another judge rejected trump's request to prevent the case from going to trial while he tries to move the case out of new york. that was just two hours after his attorneys argued that manhattanites could never make up a fair jury for trump. all of this means that the stage is still set for a trial, where the stakes for donald trump and

the future of the country couldn't be any higher. as are the stakes for alvin bragg. the case of the career has been dismissed time and time again. but the fact that we're six days away from a trial speaks to how bragg has proven all of his critics wrong. a sweeping brand-new profile, the manhattan district attorney in "the new york times" put it like this, after the indictment, a court of critics, some but not all on the right, questions the legal reasoning and the wisdom and the win ability of the hush money case. today many experts believe that bragg's legal strategy looks stronger, validated by a federal judge who rebuffed trump's effort to delay or kill the case by having it moved to federal court and by the manhattan judge presiding over the case green lit bragg's premise by setting a trial date. at the heart of the case, a call for accountability for crimes committed. no matter how big or small they might appear.

here is how bragg put it after trump's arraignment last year. >> true and accurate business records are important everywhere. to be sure. they are all the more important in manhattan. the financial center of the world. that is why we have a history in the manhattan d.a.'s office of vigorously enforcing white collar crime. my office including talented prosecutors you saw at arraignment today have tried hundreds of fell falsifying business records. this charge could be said is the bread and butter of our white-collar work. and fraud presents itself in all different forms here in manhattan and at its core, this case today is one with allegations like so many of our white-collar cases. allegations that someone lied again and again to protect their interests and evade the laws to

which we are all held accountable. >> and an ex-president is desperate to avoid any form of legal accountability. going head-to-head with the prosecutor dead set on bringing his case against trump to trial is where we start. with me at the table, two of the reporters on "the new york times" piece on alvin bragg, kim barker and michael rossfeld are here. and how alvin bragg hitched his fate to trump. and legal analyst barbara mcquade. i want to start with the piece. it is fantastic. alvin bragg has done a lot of sort of quiet thankless work of letting facts speak for themselves but use also been aware of the moment in which he thought this case, he was the first, i remember some people remember where they were when certain -- i remember when i was when trump was first indicted. and the fact that he's going first wasn't obvious, it wasn't

preordained. just talk about being alvin bragg. >> i could not get into his head even though i've tried to. when you report a story like this, you say what would alvin bragg do? our interpretation is that he brought this case first, not because he wanted to be first, but because he felt the fact pattern was ready to go. and he was fine with other cases leap frogging him. he said as much. but this is the case going forward first, which seems like poetry compared to -- with the fact that he was the first one to file it. >> what is the sort of david versus goliath aspect from alvin bragg's side. doj are one of these massive institutions and once special counsel was appointed, i think people thought the weight of the department of justice would be

the first legal consequence for his brazen criminal conduct. not so much. here is alvin bragg. >> it is his first job in elected office and he doesn't have the fame that donald trump has. he's certainly not as prominent as jack smith and the case also as many have said pales in comparison to trying to over turn an election. so this is portrayed as small potatoes. but, you know, it did end up going first because all of those cases are tied up and people say it is a solid case. it is a paperwork case, but the -- the documents are there about how trump tried to falsify, he's accused of falsifying records to cover up his hush money payments to stormy daniels. so it could be the only trial before the election and maybe the first conviction of a former

president. >> and to this point, it is so remarkable to trump succeeds in dulling the senses, right. and i mean, that this is even compared and we have to make relative value jums about how this stacked up to an insurrection case or a classified documents at mar-a-lago case is ludicrous. but this case, in the reports, was dissed, i think is it fair way to put it by a lot of people legally and politically, but it has the undeniable fact set. these are things that trump barely denies. that this was kept quiet and there was a tabloid media colluding partner that michael cohen did the dirty deeds that hope hicks was in the room. all of the witnesses to all of the conduct are trump insiders current and former. what do you think, what is your sense of how sort of meticulously alvin bragg lines all of those pieces up? >> a lot of this was developed

previously by federal prosecutors. >> pomeranz. >> who came in to investigate for bragg but the federal prosecutors who prosecuted michael cohen and his developed payments about it being a campaign finance and one involved in this hush money payment and another one, is expected to be a witness at this trial. michael cohen will be a witness at this trial. so all of this has sort of been developed over the course of a few years. and federal prosecutors never brought the case. alvin bragg then took all of that evidence and then built upon it to bring this case. >> does alvin bragg have a theory on why prosecutors never brought this case. >> i don't know what his theory is, our sense is that they couldn't prosecute trump while he was president, because you

can't do that on doj policy and then michael cohen would be the main witness but federal prosecutors did not want to rely on him because he's been convicted of several crimes an not told the truth and that is something that trump lawyers will attack cohen for. bragg was willing to take the chance on michael cohen being his chief witness, but i don't think the feds wanted to do that. >> when history is written, i think michael cohen as a witness is something that bragg seemed to take into account as he built his case and he saw it in the witnesses coming in and out for many, many, many months. you could talk about the -- what the last sort of year and a half has been like for alvin bragg? >> i think that ever since he filed these charges, if you want to start there, but frankly we could start a year before when he decided not to file the case and pursue the case. that pomeranz and vance had advanced, which is about accounting.

it is about overvaluing his properties and things like that. and since he actually went forward with this particular case, which was about a year ago at this point, in the very beginning alvin bragg was completely under attack, right. in the very beginning he's getting envelopes of white powder sent to his office. his children are vaguely threatened. his family is threatened. and i think that he since then has really tried to move forward with the other business of the office, right. doing wage theft, doing like, you know, his whole campaign promise was comforting the afflicted. >> you're right. and when you get him to answer questions, he wants to talk about all of the other work he's pursuing. >> he didn't want to sit down with us. we said to him, we've given plenty of opportunities to sit down and talk about this case and i think that he very much didn't want this case to take over the business of the office. i think he saw it as an

important case but not the only case that he was pursuing. >> barb, i want to read more from the piece to you. the hush money case had a far cleaner narrative than the net worth case with clear evidence that trump's involvement and he personally signed nine checks repaying michael cohen and michael cohen was the perfect tour guide. he paid stormy daniels if the nirs place. by the summer 2022, bragg was confident he could convince a court that these misdemeanor should be elevated to felonies and added prosecutors and the zombie case survived and i think the doj's decision not to return to this when it had a new attorney general, also, and this is just a theory, had something to do with the sorts nature of it. but if you're telling a story to a jury and anyone on jury duty knows you don't to pick the degree of sortedness and some

degree are and a porn star was paid to keep a secret. and someone had sex with a porn star and became president because it became secret and that someone isn't michael cohen. the simplicity of the part of the story that bragg is going to have an opportunity to tell to a jury, cannot be overstated. >> yeah, i think that is right. and certainly i don't know the reason that the justice department decided ultimately not to pursue this case. but i think a big part of it is, when you think about what is the harm here, prosecutors have a lot of discretion and they can't charge every case that comes across their desk. and so they try to charge the cases where there is some value in deterrence or accountability or public safety. and in this case, i think if you frame it as falsifying a few business records, it is not the most significant case in the world. but when you couple that with falsifying business records for goal of concealing from the american people on the eve of an

election the fact that you paid hush money to a porn star, at about the same time that the access hollywood tape is coming out, now it feels like a significant case and i think it is through that lens that alvin bragg saw this case and ultimately insisted on some more meticulous fact finding to see if he could corroborate the account of michael cohen that convinced him that this was a case worth bringing. >> barbara, to your point, that is exactly what alvin brag said, let me just play that in an interview. >> we are hard at work with a team of great career prosecutors with over a century of collective experience. if i could just, i know we're short on time, but start with saying that it is often shorthanded to hush money as we've laid out in public court filings. the case is not money for sex, we could say it is about

conspiring to corrupt a presidential election and then lying in new york business records to cover it up. and sos that the heart of case as we laid out in court filings. >> so barbara, to your point, it is about conspiring to corrupt a presidential election and then lying in new york business records to cover it up. i would just add that some of that cover-up took place inside of the oval office. and i'm old enough to remember when that was somewhat sacred place. but this part of the story is really, really clear as it is been charged by alvin bragg. >> yeah, and i think one thing that is important to remember and my guess is donald trump and his lawyers may try to say this is not punishing someone for cheating on his wife or having a relationship with a porn star. all of that, you could have your own moral decisions about that appropriateness of that kind of behavior. but what it is about is the

payment to conceal information from the public. at a time when that information might have been particularly salient in light of the issues that were going on with the access hollywood tape. you could put yourself back in those times, there were people that were distancing themselves from donald trump and saying he should drop out of the race because of that tape. so if this hush money payment -- if this allegation by stormy daniels had come out right at that moment, that might have really ended his presidential campaign. and so that is why, at this moment, these payments take place. and through that lens, this comes a case about election integrity and not about some messy extramarital affair. >> i mean, i remember that very, very well. and rice davis was one of the people who thought trump should get off the ticket and on the sunday shows, nobody would go out and defend him except rudy. i feel, though, because of the flurry of legal challenges that

the ex-president faces and because of the timing of the supreme court arguments around immunity, i wonder how many people have stopped to really process what is about to happen. in this country, in this city, an ex-president is about to be put on trial and a guy who has followers who polls suggest are a healthy number them believe political violence is necessary. where -- what are the preparations to keep not just the trial and the court safe but the jurors and everyone involved in it? >> well, i imagine the -- sorry, the u.s. marshals are going to be highly staff and on alert and there is going to be probably a lot of confidentiality for the jurors. you would expect that given trump's attacks and all of the discussion on social media and the discussions about gag orders, that they're going to try to be very careful to make sure nobody's life is put in

danger here. >> barbara, i want to come back to you on this and i would add another question to this. alvin bragg was one of the first people attacked and it was by the ex-president himself, circulated a social media post with a bats held up and again he's since posted things with current president tied up in the back of a pickup. so we have to go back a few in our mental files to remember the attacks against bragg, that they were graphic and they were violent. >> yes. and there is a phrase for this. sarcastic terrorism. someone speaks out against someone and he doesn't know who or when or how but he has no know there is someone out there unhinged enough to hear this as a call to action so i think the court needs to take preparation to protect alvin bragg and judge merchan and the jurors and witnesses in this case. i've been involved where there

have been security concerns where they do have the jurors meet at an undisclosed location rather than meeting at the courthouse and driving them to the courthouse in unmarked cars. so that people don't even know -- you couldn't follow them to their car or from their car in an effort to try to buy them off or intimidate them or harm them. so i could only imagine the kind of steps they need to take for the prosecutors and the judges and witnesses in this case to ensure not only their safety, but ensure that somebody is not trying to intimidate them and having a chilling effect on their rule in this case. >> there is something about alvin bragg that is so unassuming that it disorients his political adversaries. jack smith is very federal leaning and aggressive. alvin bragg sounds like he does in the interviews and at the core this is something that the office does all of the time, you cannot cheat. we're sort of the beating heart of america's sort of economic

engine. and if you cheat and then it impacts an election and there are crimes committed, we're going to pursue them. what is that sort of understated posture on this case? does that advantage him? how do you evaluate that as we sit here six days from a criminal trial of donald trump starting? >> well he's not going to be the one in front of the jury. so i don't think that that matters so much. but i do think that his affect and his whole demeanor got this case across the finish line and try to try it. and people underestimate him because he's a nice guy. >> and his first critics were the people who had sought to bring this earlier and he said, now, wait a minute. let me run this down myself. there is a deliberateness there. >> we called everybody we could find, anyone we could find who has worked with him, right. sure you could talk to us.

let's just talk and everybody was i want to talk to you about this man and i want to tell you how wonderful he was as a colleague and a friend and how supportive he was, and that puts me in an interesting position because they're like, okay, come on, there has to be something more. people would go off the record to tell us how great he was. >> i can't imagine. well, it is a great piece and i'm sort of so hungry for any information as we walk up to this sort of starting line of a stark moment and the piece was fantastic. so thank you for writing it and being here to talk to us about it. kim barker and michael rothschild. and when we come back, a abortion ban established in the year 1864. it is now making a comeback 160 years later. state of arizona putting an abortion ban back in place that could criminalize every abortion procedure in the state of

arizona. a law made possible thanks in no small part to the work of donald trump. plus, we're learning a whole lot more about jared kushner's investment firm and his clients and almost all of them with made up of foreign investors that he met and dealt with while working in his father in law's white house and doing it all out in the open. the reporter who has been covering this story will be our guest. and later in the broadcast, wee talk with one of the former military officials out today with a warner to the united states supreme court about donald trump's claims of presidential immunity. the former secretary of the army on the potential national security threat that is the ex-president. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. where t.

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it is a dark day in arizona. just now, the arizona supreme court issued its opinion in planned parenthood upholding one of the most extreme abortion bans in the country. the near total civil war era ban that continues to hang over our heads only serves to create more chaos for women and doctors in our state. >> or, another tuesday in donald trump's post dobbs america. that was arizona governor katie hbos speaking after the state supreme court upheld arizona's near total ban on abortion care. the law passed in 1864 before women had the right to vote, let

that sink in, before arizona was even a state, has no exceptions for rape, has no exceptions for incest, or health of the mother. the law mandates two to five years in prison for any person who aids an abortion. the law goes into effect in two weeks. governor hobbs said that her office will not prosecutor doctors who help women and a protection that could disappear if she leaves office and new there is a ballot initiative for the enshrinement in the constitution. they have more than the number of signatures needed. and the group working to put the amendment on the ballot, and bash with us. and chris, thank you for being here. what happens between 14 days from now and the fall?

do women in arizona have to live under the draconian law until some relief could be passed? >> sure answer is yes. i think it is important to note that right now abortion is still legal in the state. and the doors to all of our provider clinics are still open. we wanted to dispel my misinformation that is out there and help with the confusion. but however because of the ruling today, clinics will be required to wind down services. and in that two-week period. so, it is a dark day and a devastating day for arizonans. because of this heinous decision by our court. >> the biden campaign released a statement, quote, this comes one day after donald trump looks straight into a camera and bragged that he is, quote, proudly the person responsible for overturning roe and enabling

the extreme dangerous bans that have followed including in arizona. the arizona supreme court agrees, they cited the dobbs decision 22 times in today's decision. what will happen to women in arizona in 14 days? >> well, those that need abortion care will have to seek that care outside of the state unless they can somehow prove that there is some sort of access emergency -- emergency with their pregnancy. and, so, essentially abortion goes dark here in the state of arizona and they will need to access abortion elsewhere. >> what is the status of your efforts to have a ballot initiative before the voters other than i should say 62% of all citizens of arizona believe abortion should be leave and in most or all cases, 81 percent of all americans believe it should

be left up to a woman and her doctor. so it looks like if the ballot initiative is before the voters, 62% of citizens of the state certainly support abortion health care remaining or becoming legal again, i guess it would be illegal leading up to november. tell me about the work behind the ballot initiative and where that stands? >> well, as of today, just as we were yesterday, we're moving forward with our campaign. we are required to submit about 384,000 valid signatures from arizona voters to qualify for the ballot in november. last week, we were happy to announce that we have collected over 500,000 signatures and we will collect until our signatures are due july 3rd. and our hope is that we collect more than double the amount of signatures required to qualify for the ballot.

>> which is sort of tracking with what we're seeing in other states. barbara, i want to show you beth balmman, she's a volunteer working on this ballot initiative, arizona for abortion access on today's ruling. >> i'm devastated. i didn't think that they would do this. i really didn't. my niece just told me yesterday that she's pregnant and she's happy about it. she wanted to have the baby and it is due in november. and i'm just so afraid for her that she wouldn't be able to get the kind of care that she needs. >> i think because of amanda and other women telling their stories of the life-threatening access to health care that a pregnant woman gets when laws like this are in place. we all know what she's talking about there. and i wonder, your thoughts? is this the way it will be? is this the law of land? is this what women in arizona are stuck with until and unless

the ballot initiative passes in the fall? >> the answer is yes. governor katie hobbs has said that she directed the attorney general of the state of the arizona to refrain from bringing criminal cases against people who perform abortions. but, of course, that is not going to give the kind of assurance that a doctor is going to want, when they see this statue brought back to life that brings two to five years in prison and it is not worth it and prosecutors will challenge that decision by the governor to delegate all of that power into the hands of the state attorney general. those county prosecutors, they're certainly going to be some who are going to want to zealously enforce this statute and i think if you're a health care providers, you're just not going to risk going to prison in order to perform abortion health care in the state of arizona. so, i think that until there is a valid initiative, as we heard,

there is a period of 14 days of a grace period, perhaps there is some miraculous legal filing that occurs between now and then when it takes effect, but otherwise, i think that women in arizona will have to look out of state if they want to get the kind of reproductive health care they need. >> an extraordinary, extraordinary state of being feel in the united states of america in 2024. chris love and barbara mcquade, thank you for joining us to talk about it. up next, donald trump has over and over and over again, as we've been covering, said he's proud for overturning roe v. wade, end quote. our next guest said that when donald trump tells us who he is, we should all now believe him. the blue state governor set to take him on on this topic joins us next. don't go anywhere. next. don't go anywhere.

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>> tech: at safelite, we'll take care of fixing your windshield. but did you know we can take care of your insurance claim? delivered right to your door. that means less stress for you. >> woman: thanks. >> tech: my pleasure. have a good one. >> woman: you too. >> tech: schedule today at safelite.com. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ i'm state senator eva birch. a couple of weeks ago, i had an abortion. somebody took care of me. somebody gave me a procedure so i that won't have to experience another miscarriage, and now we're talking about whether or not we should put that doctor in jail. republicans don't want this. independents don't want this. democrats don't wan this. the time is now. it is done. i've had enough. the people of arizona have had enough. we are electing pro-choice candidates in november. watch it happen. >> women having to say and do

extraordinary things in this extraordinary moment. should never feel normal. that was extraordinary. and that was eva birch today on the news of the abortion ban. set to be enacted in arizona in 14 days. joining our coverage, massachusetts governor mara healy, thank you for being with us. it is extraordinary -- >> thank you for having me. >> it is extraordinary to read the words that a law that became a law before the state was a state is now the law of the land. so women in arizona starting 14 days from today, your reaction? >> trump did this. i mean, nicolle, this is exactly the responsibility of donald trump. he owns this. and he packed that court. he set up the supreme court, he promised that they would overturn roe. and they did. and look at what it has unleashed around this country. it is a disastrous decision. my heartaches for women around

this country but especially in arizona. so draconian, so misguided and not where the will of the american voters are on this issue. but it is donald trump and he did it and he owns it and people need to hold him accountable. >> state certainly birch is connect, this is not what 81% of americans want. women want abortions to be legal in most or all instances. those numbers have never been higher. the politics are abundantly clear that they are disastrous for republicans. and abortion bans and abortion candidates have failed and some of the reddest pockets of america. that is the good political news. the disastrous news for women is starting in 14 days. being pregnant could be a lethal health condition. and i wonder how you, from the campaign perspective and an elected official yourself, how you stitch together health care

and access to health care for some of the most vulnerable women in our country? >> well, there is a reason that election after election has gone the way of the will of the voters when it comes to this issue. people believe that women should have access to abortion in this country. across the board, republican and democrats, the numbers poll really high there. but, nicolle, i speak to this as a former attorney general and as a governor. it is essential that we protect women's access to needed health care in this country. and instead, what we have, has been a calculated extreme campaign over the last several years through state legislatures and really fomented and propelled by donald trump and his rhetoric and making good on promises he made. and here is the situation that we're in. over the last year, since dobbs we've seen increases in women coming from other states to massachusetts where i've made clear as governor, i'm going to protect patients and providers

an access to abortion. and that is putting a lot of pressure on providers here, it is interfering with the ability of other women to access needed health care as well. and that is why i just come back to politics aside, nicolle, and i do think that is something that has been good for democrats in terms of the numbers and results. but this is about human lives. this is about the lives that women across this country and politics, donald trump is trying to play cute yesterday with spg calculating to play both sides and have both sides of this. but let's be clear. he said he supports state bans right now. that means a six-week ban in his home state of florida. that he's going to vote for come this november. so i think it is really clear that we call donald trump out on what this is about, how it came to be and really put this at his feet. because it is at his feet and the consequences continue to be

devastating. >> what is so distinct is that in a political context, putting something at someone's feet is reminding voters what they said. but he said it yesterday. which you just said is nothing anything that donald trump denied. but i want to ask you about the lies he's telling for what is better or worse a powerful platform, that main lines a lot of disinformation to his base. and this is the lies about what is allows for people who support access to abortion and health care. donald trump is telling a potent lie that abortions somehow happen after nine months. this just isn't the thing anywhere, anyhow. how do you make sure that democrats could combat the disinformation as soon as it is out of the horse's mouth. >> i think you have to hit them really hard with this. and you know, it is what many of us tried to do yesterday. to point out the fakes that it is donald trump who as recently as yesterday is bragging about overturning roe, claims responsibility for overturning

roe, which had the affect of stripping health care access to millions of women around this country and women today continue to pay the price. it is the case that we have to point out the misinformation. the outrageous inflammatory statements are simply incorrect about what he is saying when it comes to abortion, when it is available, how it is provides and the like. and you know, i think it is just imperative that we continue to communicate to people, number one, donald trump is proud that he over turned roe. he's tried time and time again to find ways and support ways including by supporting state bans right now, where we have a situation in this country that one out of three american women live in a state where there are abortion bans. this is been his game from the beginning and i think it is really important that we point that out as much as we can and also hold donald trump to account. donald trump, you're saying that you believe in a six-week ban in your home state of florida. you support that and you will

support that in november. joe biden on the other hand has made clear he will stand up and protect women's access to abortion in this country. it could not be more clear in this election on this issue. >> governor maura healy, thank you for jumping on the breaking news and plaguing time to talk to us about it today. we're grateful. >> good to be with you, nicolle. coming up for us, there is brand-new investigative reporting on jared kushner and his very, very, very, very lucrative business dealings with foreign investors. while he works with his father in law donald trump in the white house, one of the reporters who has been on beat will be our next guest. don't go anywhere. ...so he tak. the world's #1 sleep aid brand. and wakes up feeling like himself. get the rest to be your best with non-habit forming zzzquil. ♪ ♪

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blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. there is brand-new reporting today that takes us deep inside jared kushner's investment firm which is raising plenty of eyebrows. as his father in law runs for president, again. and his shockingly comfortable mindset, with all of the ethical questions about political favors and foreign policy, but only mount as kushner's firm grows. the times has brand-new details about the investors and the investies that kushner bee friended during his time as that unpaid trump white house adviser. the reporting said that kushner in an interview, quote, did not dispute that the middle east contacts made in government became the keys to his post white house career, end

quotement and kushner admitted his firm had a been selective in whom to invest, having vetted more than 1400 investment opportunities and making ten deals ranging from $100 million to $500 million with countries in israel, dubai, germany and u.s. and an abu dhabi backs company. and jared kushner firm has distributed half of the $3 billion, 99% of which has come from foreign source as cording to the s.e.c. that is $2 billion from saudi arabia. $200 million from each from qatar and the uae, as well as an undisclosed smaller investment from terry gou, called fox con, who he helped get a $3 billion government tax credit. joining our conversation eric lipton, and he's on the beat of following the money.

and i guess with kushner, it is sort of following the government career to the money and then asking the questions, right, about where they intersect. take me inside of this new bit of reporting which appears to be really building on other stories you've done with a lot more information and clarity about where kushner's money comes from and goes. >> right. so i started a conversation with jared kushner as we were doing the reportings on their proposed environments in the balkans and serbia and albania and said i think it is time to do an update to understand where things are with their infinite partners and what are some of the companies that they bought into and what are some of the potential conflicts of interest that emerging. and so he agreed to meet with me. i went down to sunny isles beach near miami and sat down in his office and talked to him for

about an hour and so we talked through a bunch of these things. he feels comfortable that he's avoiding conflicts interest but i asked him about the appearance of the aconflict of interest and there is a number of them but he feels his doing the right thing. >> let me just again, they are a sensitive lot and let met leave it in the words of former trump national security adviser john bolton who said this, quote, jared's success leads to thethi jared's success with foreign funds leads to the questions of what dealings he was having with them while he was still administration. and correas correas is a little more blunt. let me play that for you. >> the grift from this family is breathtaking. it's breathtaking. jared kushner and ivanka kushner walk out of the white house and months later get $2 billion from

the saudis. $2 billion from the saudis. you think it's because he's some kind of investing genius? or do you think it's because he was sitting next to the president of the united states for four years doing favors for the saudis. that's your money. that's your money he stole. and gave it to his family. you know what that makes us? a banana republic. >> again, donald trump faces joe biden and there's not a lot of indication that this will be central to the presidential campaign, but the attacks have been launched by republicans against jared kushner and this griftiness. and i wonder what jared kushner has to say about these accusations. >> he is quite comfortable with what he's doing. and his belief is that as long as he does not ask for favors, and he, you know, does what he calls arms length transactions, as he told the serbian

government or albanian government to give him concessions or gives teams to the abu dhabi southern wealth fund to buy a brazil fast food chain. his view is he's not asking for favors and he's not getting them. the thing i asked him if our conversations, what if someone is giving you a favor in order to try to impress the future president trump. what do you do about that and is that appropriate for you to be getting, even unintentionally favor. and he said, that would be stupid. how do we know whether or not that's happening? that's problem that emerges when you have a father-in-law that's running for president. >> the understatement of the century. i have one more question for you. i have to sneak in a quick break first. are you able to stick with us for a few more minutes? >> sure. eric lipton will be right back. please, don't go anywhere. a quick break for us. please, don't go anywhere. a quick break for us

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>> i mean, one of the things that we were told is that there's a belief that if he was able to help negotiate the abraham accords, that perhaps his bringing saudi money to israeli would be a way to build a relationships with israel, even before potentially saudi arabia joins the abraham accords. and that he has, you know, relationships in israel and that that could help warm relations between israel and saudi arabia. but clearly, i mean, he did not -- he had been a real estate investor for the most part. he had done some work with his brother, who had, you know, and others in investing in just pure -- pure investments in real estate before going outside the government. he did not have a track record running his own investment firm. getting $2 billion from the saudi sovereign wealth fund was very unusual. >> very unusual, indeed. and we are grateful that you and your colleagues are on this beat. we'll stay on it. thank you for joining us to talk about your reporting. we're grateful. in the next hour of

"deadline: white house," former military officials are raising the alarm today about what donald trump could do to the military in a second term. that story is next. in a second. that story is next sara federico: at st. jude, we don't care who cures cancer. we just need to advance the cure. it's a bold initiative to try and bump cure rates all around the world, but we should. it is our commitment. we need to do this.

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but if you have a president who's intent to use the military for unlawful purposes, you've destroyed that unity that exists. you've destroyed that trust. you've created chaos in the ranks. you've put soldiers in untenable position, created an incredible dilemma for them, you've probably misused the military in a way that average americans are going to say, wait, our military is being used for political purposes? it will undermine support for the military. and it sends the wrong message to other countries in this world, where our country is the vanguard of democracy. >> hi, again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york, untenable position, incredible dilemma, chaos in the ranks.

these are serious warnings and consequences. they all stem from donald trump's attempt to dismiss the federal election interference case against him, made even more serious by who's delivering them. a former secretary of the army, laos caldera, along with 18 other former high-ranking military officials and retired four-star generals issued a blistering amicus brief to the supreme court. they argued if trump's presidential immunity claim is recognized by the supreme court, it will have a devastating impact on the country's rule of law, on the country's national security, and the military's role in american society. the nation's highest court will hear oral arguments on presidential immunity, just two weeks from today, the more than a dozen former four-star generals and military officials say that donald trump's defense is an assault on the foundational commitments of the united states armed forces. they write this. quote, the notion of such

immunity, both as a general matter and also specifically in the context of the potential negation of election results, threatens to jeopardize our nation's security and international leadership, particularly in times like the present when anti-democratic authoritarian regimes are on the rise worldwide, such a threat is intolerable and dangerous. they go on to explain how immunity would upend the normal chain of command in the military. quote, allowing the commander in chief to we wanted the powers of the u.s. military to criminal ends, with impunity, would also confront the president's civilian appointees and military officers, with an impossible choice. whether to obey the orders of the commander in chief sore the laws of the united states. the filing from the former generals and military officials was followed up last night by another. this one issued by special counsel jack smith. he argues that the court reject

trump's claim and says this, quote, the absence of any prosecutions of former presidents until this case does not reflect the understanding that presidents are immune from criminal liability. it instead underscores the unprecedented nature of the petitioner's alleged conduct. trump has until april 15th to issue his final reply brief. the same date that the you shall money trial against him begins. the first ever criminal case against an american ex-president. it's where we start today with some of our favorite experts and friends. former secretary of the army, louis caldera joins us. he was one of the former military personnel who filed yesterday's brief. also joining us, former lead investigator, tim heaphy is here. and with me at the table for the hour, former top state department official for the obama administration, rick stangl is here. secretary caldera, tell me about the argument being made, and then tell me about the

consequences, if your argument does not prevail. >> well, so first of all, you know, an amicus brief is a friend of the court brief, where we try to bring attention to the justices, matters that they wouldn't necessarily think about. and because none of the justices, as learned as they are, ever served in the military, we thought it was important for them to know what the national security implications are of the argument that the former president is making. if a former president is immune from prosecution for violating the law, he could order the military to violate that very law, in ways that they could still be prosecuted for. so he, you know, immunity means he wouldn't be prosecuted, but the generals, the soldiers, those who are either told to assassinate a political rival, as his own rivals argued in court, or if he ordered them to break up a peaceful protest of americans exercising their first amendment rights, as he wanted

to do, when he was president, but was told by the department of defense officials that the military had no role being used in such a matter, and it would be a violation of the law, he could order them to do that. and this would put the military in a terrible position. do you follow the orders of the commander in chief, who you've been sworn to follow, or do you obey the law? because soldiers actually also have a duty not to obey unlawful orders. they can be prosecuted for obeying unlawful orders. they have been trained, ever since world war ii, nazi germany, the defense of following superior orders is no longer a defense that is tenable if you violate the law. and so this would tear the military apart, because it would put the president's political appointees, those who are loyal to him, and tried to force the military to violate the law, against the career military officials who said, hey, our job

is to protect the nation against foreign enemies. it is not to violate the law. we are a military that follows the rule of law. and so it would create chaos, it would destroy the trust that has to reside between civilian leaders and military leaders. it would undermine support of the military. as the public said, what is our military being used for? are they going to send their sons and daughters to be used in ways that don't have to do with protecting our foreign enemies. and sends the message from other countries, that particularly in the context as you said of an election, that the democracy that we have told other countries is the best way to protect human rights, the best way to protect free markets and capitalism, the best way to resolve problems peacefully, that the u.s. itself doesn't live up to those aspirations. and that's perhaps why others with more maligned intensive

forms of governments are finding receptive audiences, and thinking, maybe democracy isn't all the americans have been telling us it is. so these are important matters that we're trying to bring to the attention of the court, because -- and it's not just about donald trump. it could be any future president, if the court were to find that he has this right, any future president would be free with the constraints of the rule of law, would be above the rule of law, could use the military in any way he wanted. and that kind of military only exists in places like north korea and russia, where their leaders can tell the military to do anything they want, and they will do it. >> secretary caldera, chairman mark milley is acutely aware of what donald trump already sought to do with the military. he was in lafayette square with him. he went on to record a video message, apologizing to all the men and women of the military. i believe secretary mattis was the defense secretary when donald trump wanted to use the pentagon for his border

policies, which i think trampled on all sorts of existing laws, for illegal and unconstitutional to start. general kelly, i think, was witness to donald trump fawning over nazi generals and having a lot of admiration for just autocratic practices, but brutal, heinous crimes against humanity. why didn't they sign the amicus brief? >> the amicus brief wasn't circulated over former defense official or general officer. it was a handful of us who began this process, wrote the brief, and then solicited, in a short time frame, others we thought would be willing to sign on. but the important thing is that we are united. general officers, four-star admirals, generals from all of the branches of the military, and former skrars of the army, navy, and marine corps.

but you're right in what you're talking about. former defense secretary mark esper was essentially fired by president trump, because he wouldn't use the military to violate the laws against a civilian protesters. president trump has said that he thought that general milley, in former timts, would be executed because he didn't just cozy up to everything that he wanted him to do when he was president. so, these are not hypotheticals. these are serious things that have occurred, and he would have even more license if he were ever to become president again. >> and mr. secretary, it was ant gotcha question. i wanted to get at how difficult it is to speak out, if you've served in the united states military. there is something engrained, right, in that kind of service to not to become part of our politics. if you can speak to those of you

who did sign the brief find this moment? >> that is correct. some of us have been political appointees and are in civilian life, but by design, the military must be apolitical, even for those of us who are political appointees, we treat it as apolitical, because we need the support of american people, we need the support of senatos and members of congress from both sides of the aisle. we don't want to get involved in partisan politics. defending the country has to be above politics. it's always been treated that way, really, until the last administration attempted to politicize it, and in many cases did politicize military actions and decisions. that's the lane we would like to operate in. it's only because of how dangerous these circumstances is and this theory that former president trump has advanced and how it would harm our national security, that people stepped up one wrote this brief, and then, two, when we circulated it, a

great number of proud americans who have served their nation faithfully their entire careers in uniform, signed on to it. >> how painful is this moment for men and women of the military, active duty and veterans, whose families have literally sacrificed everything, so that the rest of us who tragically, take our democracy for granted in all too many instances, how painful is this moment? >> well, i'll only speak for myself, because you know, we did not have this in the brief, but you know, sadly, i think some of the damage has already been done, even by the kinds of allegations, well, the kinds of theories that the former president has advanced, the events of january 6th, were for the first time in our nation's history, we did not have a peaceful transfer of power. that already begins to undermine our country's standing in the world, and our military.

but we are a resilient country. we will bounce back from this. we will restore what our country and our flag has stood for, and the strength of our military. >> i guess my last question is, if the supreme court decides that a president has complete immunity, are you optimistic that we will bounce back from this moment? >> i think so. i think so. because, i have faith in the american people that they can see the danger signs that are there and they're going to have a chance to have their say on that in the election in november, as long as we have a free and fair election and the outcome is not disputed in ways tarnish our tradition of free and fair elections. you know, i think we're a greater country than one person. the founders did warn us that there would be those who might seduce factions and mobs to betray the rule of law and to

try to enshrine themselves as authoritarians leaders and undermine our democracy. but we've got to step up to this challenge right now and that's what those of us who signed the brief are trying to do. >> tim heaphy, this is not a drill. let me play you some of the arguments when this was before the d.c. circuit court. >> i asked you a yes or no question. could a president who ordered seal team 6 to assassinate a political rival, who was not impeached, would he be subject to criminal prosecution? >> if he were impeached and convicted first. >> so your answer is "no"? >> my answer is qualified yes. there's a political process that would have to occur under the structure of offer constitution, which would require impeachment and conviction by the senate. in these exceptional cases, as the olc memo itself points out from the department of justice, you'd expect a speedy impeachment and conviction. >> these are not theoreticals. donald trump is running on a

promise to pursue general chairman mark milley. he has promised, quote, retribution, end quote. tell me your reaction to this extraordinary act of braver outside the norms for the esteemed list of military officials to sign an amicus brief to the supreme court? >> nicole, it is, first of all rare, military men and women are loathe to wade into things outside of their lane, to use his term. so to the extent that they did so here, filing an amicus brief in a united states supreme court case, it demonstrates a high degree of alarm. and it's justified, as you just said, there's been a lot of indication that the -- that if there is a second term, that there would be an attempt to misuse the military. we don't have to look just at statements prospectively, we can look at the record. the record that the select committee developed is replete with examples of the former

president's misunderstanding of the fundamental independence of the department of defense, the department of justice, the department of homeland security. you know, he looked at these agencies as stlirn instruments self or political interest. general milley talked to us at length about the president's desire to use the military in ways that were improper, including domestic law enforcement purposes, continually raise the insurrection act as a possible prophylactic step to quell domestic disturbance, and general milley and barr and esper continually pushed back. and installing a general who's going to issue a letter that had no basis in fact or law, that would stray outside of its lane of traditional independence and avoidance in interfering in what's a state process, meaning the conduct of elections. so he already expressed those instincts. and i can only imagine that in a

second term, the currency for appointment of the leaders of those agencies will be loyalty, right? willingness to do the things that he wants to do, even if they're way out of character with the traditional limitations, functions, and dependencies of those agencies. that is a frightening proposition, so frightening that these straight arrow military men and women, who never get involved in anything political, absent a sort of a "break the glass" fear have decided to take the step of filing an amicus brief. >> tim, do you -- you know win sometimes wonder what the january 6th select committee public hearing version would be, right, of these arguments before the supreme court. so the supreme court again, wittingly or unwittingly made an incredibly political decision to indulge this preposterous claim that a president is immune for everything he does forever and always. particularly, when that particular person is trump, who sought to -- he promised people

pardons for breaking the law, ahead of time when it came to his border policies. as you said, the committee developed all sorts of evidence of stephen miller's plan to invoke the insurrection act, and to involve the military in extra judicial ways against the american people. this was in the end game, right? the last gasp. trump is now running on all of these things. and everyone that runs and wins misreads their mandate, but that usually means something on the idea of domestic policy or tax cuts. trump is running as an autocrat, full stop. in your sort of expansive knowledge of what unearthed, what does that mean for the military? >> i think it means as secretary caldera and the others who wrote this amicus brief indicated, we risk orders, and military men and women are trained to follow orders, right? the commander in chief has the final say. there's a risk that there will be orders issued that really fly

in the face of that traditional independence. that take the military into areas that they have traditionally avoided. domestic affairs, law enforcement and the policing of mass protests or even the conduct of elections. that is frightening. that does start to current us into more of an autocratic, military-run society. and that is truly frightening. the premise of our work with the select committee is that facts matter. that by telling the story of those attempts, thankfully thwarted attempts to misuse power, to misuse those agencies, it would be an important realization for america about the possibility of that. and a referral, right, for accountability. for criminal accountability. if despite that referral, despite those facts, despite attempt at accountability, there's a return to power, it's almost as if it is sort of implicitly justified to prior conduct. the fact that there hasn't been accountability, almost empowers

or emboldens further violations. so from my perspective, and i'm confident the select committee would share this, it's a frightening concept. because, again, we saw the danger. it's only been amplified and it would only be amplified further if there's no legal consequence. >> it's an unbelievable, precarious moment. and but for people who probably in normal times would not be interested in weighing in on our politics, speaking out, we have the clarity that we have from both of you. former secretary of the army, louis caldera, thank you so much for joining us to talk about this. tip heaphy, thank you, as always. rick sticks around for the hour with us. when we come back, the disgraced ex-president's plans for retribution, should he win in november. we're learning new details about who he will target and how he will do it. two ex-trump administration's officials, insiders, who are actively working to stop him will be our next guest. plus, the threat of authoritarianism here at home is fueled by disinformation and a

total disregard for the truth and the facts. nobel peace prize winner maria raisa is a longtime crusader for freedom and expression and a tireless fighter against all types of disinformation. she will be our guest on the perilous inflection point democracies all around the world are facing right now. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. can this be treated? stop typing. start talking to a specialized urologist. because it could be peyronie's disease, or pd. it's a medical condition where there is a curve in the erection, caused by a formation of scar tissue. and an estimated 1 in 10 men may have it. but pd can be treated even without surgery. say goodbye to searching online. find a specialized urologist who can diagnose pd and build a treatment plan with you. visit makeapdplan.com today. when your gut is out of balance, your body gives you signs. so if you're frustrated with occasional bloating... ♪♪ [stomach noises] gas...

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and for those who have been wronged and betrayed, i am your retribution. >> just what we were all looking for, right? as much as he would like to say that his campaign is, quote, about your retribution, what he means, what we all knows he means is that it's about his retribution, his revenge against anyone and everyone who's criticized, who departed his tent, and who stands in his way of returning to power. there's brand-new reporting in axios that chose that house republicans might just be providing a blueprint for this. they write, house republicans have struggled to show president joe biden have done anything illegal. people close to donald trump uphold the rule of law. this is the very kind of situation that former congresswoman liz cheney has warned could pose a serious threat to democracy.

>> you said we're sleepwalking into dictatorship in the united states. dictatorship. is that what we would have if we re-elected donald trump? >> i think it's a very real threat and concern. >> joining our conversation, sarah matthews is back with us. she resigned on the evening of january 6th, 2021 and went on to testify publicly before the january 6th select committee. also joining us at the table, former chief of staff at the department of homeland security, miles taylor is here. the, the author of the newly released paperback edition with a great update for the 2024 election, "blowback." you were out, we were talking, miles, about blue came out as anonymous. you were still in or had just left and you write about the entire cabinet discussing openly the 25th amendment. donald trump is the first ex-president to run without to

support of his vp or without the support of any of his cabinet, and this extraordinary new amicus brief from members of the military warning that he's a threat basically to the world order, to the democracy and to the military, where everyone? where is everyone knows that he's a clear and present danger? >> first, i've got to say, nicole, it is remarkable and to put that into historical context, there is no historical context. no pthd has faced this level of opposition from his own team, none, full stop. that is hopefully significant enough to give republican voters who are disaffected the air cover they need to not put this man back in the white house. but that means getting those voices actually out there. getting them into a cohort. i have to log people like sarah what's on right now. she showed a lot of courage.

people like alex vimman, stephanie grisham, you can go down the list. and now we've got to show the breadth and depth of that cohort in a way that americans can easily sea. sarah can attest to this, both of us want to get those people -- hell, let's get them lined up on a stage right here. >> bring them, i'll get like a thanksgiving table and line them all up. >> you've got to put them all together. but some of these folks, incredibly, are still scared. they will have spoken out and then say, i don't know, i finally got a job, i finally got a job after two years of not being able to find a job. it's about saying to them, look, this is country over party, this is a crucial moment. this is the republic, and don't worry, we have your back. and also, for the people who haven't spoken out, the time to grow a spine is right now and the clock is ticking. there's not going to be a chance after this election to say, oh, but wait, here's how i felt about him. they have to do that soon. i just talked to a cabinet

member this week, one of the ones from the trump administration who hasn't spoken out, who's kind of flirting with the idea of maybe this summer -- and i said, what are you doing waiting? you have to go now. you're already years late. but it's not too late for the country, for you to do it. we've got to give those folks that platform and that cohort of officials so they can have the air cover to come out. >> i mean, sarah, sarah longwile, says she's obsessed with permission structures. and this is probably where we are, that frankly, not a lot has been said on this program is going to move a the two-time trump voter into the biden column, but there are a lot of trump voters who don't see him as quite as shiny of a penny, if you will, as he was in '16. tell me what you hear from people who are reluctant. people like yourself, who saw him up close and personal, to come out and come out against him? >> i think a lot of people are reluctant to speak out, as miles kind of mentioned. people are concerned with their

career prospects and they worry about going against the grain and speaking out against trump. and then i think, too, that even if there are people who know that trump is dangerous and maybe are thinking about speaking out, they do not want to go as far as endorsing joe biden then. and i've been someone who has said that if my choices in this election are donald trump and joe biden, then i will have no choice but to vote for joe biden. because to me, it's not a lesser of two evil situation. there is no comparison here. even if i don't like the policies of the biden administration, i'm willing to put that aside, because i know that donald trump is a danger to our democracy, and that he is unfit to ever serve as president again. so i'm going to do everything i can and use my voice and my platform in order to educate the american people about this threat, but that i hope that will inspire other elected officials to come forward and speak that truth. i think we have a duty to the

american people to educate them on this. >> in your study of ormation, it was the study of disinformation in russia, but we have challenges here. and i wonder hi or whether there's a tipping point, where it is not possible that all of these people that left are part of some left-wing cabal, right? is there a tipping point, or even the most enthusiastic trump voter says, huh, maybe it wasn't that great. >> it's a good question, and i admire the people who have the moral courage to say, i was wrong, he's a special threat. i don't know if regular voters pay attention to that. i think that's why the amicus brief is so important, because it also puts how unprecedented trump is in historical context. because it talks about how we created -- we have created civilian leadership for the military. that had never existed in the history of the world before. the militaries were obligated to work for the queens or tyrants

that they served. our military take an oath to say, we solemnly swear to protect and defend to constitution of the united states against all enemies, foreign and domestic. there's no other military in the world that takes an oath to the constitution. the british military still takes an oath to the king. and that comes back around to the fact why he is special. he see himself as a king. he's like a 16-year-old boy and thinks, i have the military, i can tell them what to do, i can have them you know, shoot miles, you know, i can have them against all my enemies. and it does have some resonance with people who have this grievance. americans feel like life has passed them by, so when he says, i am your retribution, he's weaponizing the grievances of these americans who feel left out, who doesn't understand those foundational principles that those former military

leaders say, that he is a unique threat. >> the grievances aren't in the past, but they manufacture in the trump base, as grievances that are active. they, you know, i think joe biden had a line, i think it was against rudy giuliani that everything was a noun and a verb on 9/11. the new right-wing sentence structure is a noun and a verb and dei. and it's ludicrous, it's just not based on anything provable or factual. but it's their new bogeyman. i mean, during the obama years, it was fast and furious. there's always some faux cultural flash point that they blanket over the entire sort of biden administration and use to agitation their supporters. are you convinced or how do you assess efforts to push back against the just fragrant lies that do work in riling up the trump base? >> i think it will be really hard to do. i've got to say, there's no

limit to where the revenge will go. i think he views himself more like harry potter -- or voldemort, rather. when i was there, i'll never forget the meeting, and i told you this the first time we ever spoke, when he called it his magical powers. that's what he referred to the insurrection act as, verbatim, those are my magical powers. because he knew in invoking that, he could do things that no democratic leader had done before in the united states. now, he's not going to invoke them save the american people and improve the economy. he wants to invoke those powers so he can get revenge. i could go to department by department. at dhs, it's to get revenge against enemies. blue states, he'll withhold edge. at the justice department, he'll launch special counsel investigations. but to your point about it going way further, think about thing like dei, they want to find ways to use the department of education to get revenge against school districts that have implemented policies that they don't agree with, by withholding

funds. we've talked about his plans -- stephen miller had plans to use the education department to keep migrant children out of public schools. again, the revenge knows no limits. and we have never experienced a government like that. a lot of that was stopped in the first term. the guardrails are off, the dam breaks, whatever metaphors you want to use, that's coming. that's the trump second term. whether you're a republican or a democrat, that's not how you should want government to operate. >> sarah, you were there, at the table, what is the most effective way to get him to sort of -- i hate using this term because of the visual, but what is his political soft underbelly? >> i think that we need to be calling out his lies. and that's what's so difficult, is that i think the american people have been desensitized to his lies and his rhetoric, because trump lies as often as he breathes. and so it's really difficult sometimes, i think, for the moud to be able to fact check him,

because it's just so much to correct and to correct the record on. and so we need to be covering him in a way where we're not just taking every rally live. i think msnbc has done a great job of this, where you guys, if you cover any of his remarks, you'll cut away when there's a lie, in order for that not to get air time. but i think that the american people still need to be seeing what he is saying and this sort of increased unhinged rhetoric that he's been using, saying things like, it will be a bloodbath if he's not re-elected. saying that migrants are poisoning the blood of this country. and we need to be showing the american people that donald trump is dangerous to be in office again, and that this is what you're going to get if you put him back in office, because he has not only is he a different candidate than he was in 2016, he's a different candidate than he was in 2020. i think when we talk about the past and how disaffected voters supported him, because he was running on this message of

making america great again. that was a somewhat inspiring, uplifting message for those voters, and it seemed to resonate with them, because they felt that they had been left behind by this country. but now he's running on retribution. i don't know who that's supposed to appeal to. and for the voters he's most likely going to need in order to win in a general election, which would be your more moderate republicans and independents, i can't see that being an appealing message to them. that is not a message that is for them or to their benefit. it's only about donald trump. and so we need to keep the focus on that, the things he says he's going to do in a second term, that are dangerous, and how we would not uphold our constitution, and how he wants to exact revenge on his political enemies, because that is not an inspiring message to me. it's only about donald trump and what's good for him. >> i think that's right. i think you make a really important point, it's one that i noodle with a lot. and that is, where is the hard

line on not platforming him, actually shielding people from how diminished he is and how different he is from '16 and even '20. maybe we'll take one speech, and if we could handle it sort of -- you're all too young, remember the vhs tapes. and it's an important point. i take your point. people do need to see that he's running as a very different figure. sarah mathewses and miles taylor, thank you for being here and speaking out and spending some time with us. miles' book, there's a new version of "blowback" out, "blowback: a warning to save america from trump's revenge," the paperback is out today. when we come back, our special report, "american autocracy: it could happen here," today, how to safeguard free expression and cut through the mountains of disinformation that have infected parts of our society and that now actively threaten our democracy.

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the reliance on lies, mistruths, disinformation, and the spread of all of those things are not quirks or side effects or a side show or a subplot of the maga movement or any authoritarian movement. they are the lifeblood. they are preconditions, utterly

essential to donald trump's grip on the republican party and his continued presence as a menace on the word stage. in this bizarre-o world, we short-term at earth, too, where up is down and left is right and the disgraced ex-president really did win and was cheated re-election, trump's falsehoods are accepted as facts. they are eagerly and willingly consumed. if tomorrow he said the sky the purple, you could imagine a not-so-insignificant portion of the people living on earth, too, would just accept that without even looking up. so you can understand why trump might see shared foundational truths and those who could seek to preserve and protect them as a threat to everything he values, to the power he holds over his base, and by extension, his aspirations for an even more frightening and autocratic second term as president. for years, he has attacked the members of and the very idea of a free and fair press. the attacks are fall, he has hip

critically and falsely accused american journalists of spreading disinformation, when he's the only one doing this. why? remember what lesley stahl said in 2018, watch. >> before the interview, i met with him in trump tower. at one point, he started to attack the press. and it's just me and my boss and him -- he has a huge office, and he's attacking the press. there were no cameras or nothing going on. i said, you know, that is getting tired. why do you keep hammering at this? and he said, you know why i do it? i do it to discredit you all and demean you all so when you write negative stories about me, no one will believe you. >> so now, right, eight, nine years later, we're at a point where in a matter of months, donald trump's years-long relentless assault on central demonstrable truths and the people who tell them and their advocates will reach their ultimate standoff, right?

their ultimate flexion point. people on earth too conditioned to believe only him, but everything and everything else seek to support and send him back for a second term, and a period of american autocracy, unchained by things as frivolous as facts. joining us at the table, a global champion in the fight for truth, the president, cofounder, and ceo of rappler, the leading digital news and media organization in the philippines, the winner of the nobel peace prize in 2021, the author of "how to stand up to a dictator," maria ressa is here. i want to ask you a question about where we are in our fight, and if it is as tectonic as it feels. >> it's interesting that you say that it's earth 2 versus reality. we still live in the same shared reality, in the real world, which means that there is hope.

but what has splintered us apart is the design of the social media platforms that connect us. so this has actually, by design, it rewards lies, right? from 2018, an m.i.t. study says that lies spread six times faster. post-elon musk, it would be even faster today. you say a lie a million times, it's a fact. but the second part of that is that if you lace it with fear, anger, and hate, it spreads even faster. so we're in an upside down world, but i think it is still possible to turn it right-side up, otherwise, we wouldn't be here. but this is it. this is the moment, right? because of all of the issues you just raised. >> what is the way to make the lies less appealing?

right? it's come to my -- i mean, i don't think that there's going to be a trial? no one's coming to save americans. the only people with any agency or control over whether we become an autocracy or we remain a democracy with our problems and our weaknesses, but still a democracy, is the voters. that's the whole ball game. i wonder what is the most effective way to make voters feel empowered and not discouraged, which is how those on the autocratic side want them to feel. >> yeah. so first of all, it is not -- even before social media, there were studies that showed up to 80 to 85% of how we vote is not based on what we think. it's based on how we feel. >> gut. >> how we feel. so social media came in and incited fear, anger, hate. and so what do we do now. you actually have to tap these emotions, and what are the tools that are being used here?

religion is one, right? faith. arts. culture. and that's part of the reason you're seeing identity. remember russian disinformation attacked both sides of black lives matter. it didn't matter. they didn't want you to believe one thing. they just wanted to break it open. >> rip it apart. >> and the last thing is like, remember urie andropov, former head of the ussr, he said, this is the role of disinformation. he said, disinformation is like cocaine. you take it once or twice, you're okay. but if you take it all the time, you're a changed man, person. we're on cocaine. i hate to say that coming from -- but like, you know, we are weak, addicted, and we must find our solution. how do we deal with this? understand that you're being manipulated. that you do not have agency. and it isn't the just foreign

influence operations or even your own political power plays that are happening. it is also the tech that is connecting you. you say a lie a million times, it's a fact. that brings you to earth. poland is a light for me, because there you had a government that was in power that everyone thought would win. but it passed an abortion law that brought the women and the youth out. and they voted and they had agency. how do you get agency? you get out of the virtual world, you move into thereal world. you realize, this moment matters. our backs are against the wall. how do you reach someone? tap the emotions. in the philippines, in may of 2022, when he elected marcos jr., remember, we're the country that had the 1986 people power revolt that began the democracy movements all around the world, well, his only son and namesake in 1986, the father, stole $10

billion in 1986. the swiss government changed the banking laws so you could get this back. his son is overwhelming elected in 2022. what we did in the philippines was to try to do an influence for marketing campaign for facts, because we can no -- this is the information ecosystem system we have already. it's corrupted. how do you appeal to hearts and minds? and what we found was that we had four-layer pyramid. the bottom layer were 16 news organizations doing fact hecks.. 116 different civil society groups, business was there. the church was there. their goal every day was to share a fact check with emotion. that couldn't use anger. and what we found when we mapped it over time and we did take over the center of the information ecosystem, we found

that inspiration spreads as fast as anger. the third layer were ak dem academic institutions. the last layer, rule of law. six legal organizations who filed more than 20 cases to protect. when we rolled out fact checking, the solicitor general tried to file a case in the supreme court against me, yet another one, saying it's prior restraint. so america welcomed our old world, right? we've come out of it. >> let me ask you about abortion. we, we in america, have a sense, even before, and i look your cocaine addiction analogy. i think that's right. disinformation has that effect. but abortion seems to have politically broken through. every woman, everyone who loves

a woman, understands it at an emotional level as well. what is your sort of sense on how we talk about the stakes in the election if that is an issue that isn't just happening here but a tactic that authoritarians employ. >> in every country around the world what democracy is backsliding, the first target of attack are women. gendered disinformation. in my country, women journalists. i was getting an average of 90, 9-0, hate messages per hour. and the goal of that is americans think this is a free speech issue. this is free speech being used to pound you to silence. free speech to stifle free speech. that's the tactic. so you silence the women. women journalists, women activists, women politicians. they're opting out. in the eu, they have this

problem now, right? so understand that this is, these are tactics in a playbook that has been successful in many different countries around the world. also understand that all the signs are here. your question here is whether or not is it going, it already is. in 2016, when we were under attack, first, it's online. a million times. lie told a million times. we were being bombarded. i went to mountain view, i think it was at google where i was talking about what was happening to us. you know what's happening to us, this is on your american social media platform so this is going to be coming for you. >> what did they say? >> i don't think anyone believed me because it seems like it's happening out there, but then when january 6th happened here, i wished i had been wrong. this is what the cambridge

analytica scandal proved. americans were the target but the country that had the most number of compromised account was the u.s. the country with the second most compromised number of accounts was the philippines. we were the testing ground for you. so again, here's the whole part. we're coming out of it in a weird way, right? like, i always say the duetre year, we were in hell and now we're in purgatory. so you can come out of it. civil society now is rising but this is it. if you haven't felt this, when the world feels like there are two realities, this idea of personalization, which is built into the tech. i always say if you have 100 people in a room and they each have their own personal reality, that's not a room. that is an insane asylum. this is the world we're building. >> oh, god, i love that. can you stick around? i want to bring rick in on this. don't go anywhere.

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i feel like you're the voice we've been waiting for. can you come back? i talk too much and i didn't let my friend rick get in on it but if you come back, we can ask you more questions. we'll have a whole stack of them. thank you so much. thank you so much for being here. the book is called how to stand up to a dictator, the fight for our future. because i put her on the spot on live tv, she said yes. hopefully she will be back. another break for us. we'll be right back. another break for us we'll be right back. only way that gets your habite to lose the weight. and golo is the plan that's going to help you do that. just take the first step, go to golo.com. file 100% free with turbotax free edition. roughly 37% of taxpayers qualify... form 1040 and limited credits only... see how at turbotax.com...

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