this morning the prosecutor asked for her three year sentence to be reinstated and even if she is found guilty of slander again, she will not be expected to return to italy as she served three years in jail when she was found guilty of murder. but knox wants to clear her name and remove this last legal stain against her once and for all. >> thank you. that is doing it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. where an epic collision of opposing forces is underway. of course we're talking about the first criminal trial of an american ex-president which is set to commence in a matter of days. it is crashing into donald trump's well honed strategy of delay, delay, delay. for example, this morning was

just five days to go before jury selection begins, that strategy produced yet another appeal in the hush money case. a third in three days. donald trump's lawyers filed the challenge invoking an article of new york state law reportedly citing judge merchan's refusable to step aside in the case. but while such shameless attempts to delay accountability combined with an ever looming presidential election season are enough to make any one of us say get to it already. we should never lose sight of how historic this moment in time really is. we are in the last period before this has never happened before, right. because on monday attorneys for both sides are going to begin the process of selecting members of a jury. a group of 12 new yorkers, men and women, uniquely tasked with deciding one small matter, the fate of a criminal defendant who is also a presidential front-runner accused of secretly buying the silence of a porn

star. in the twilight hours of the 2016 presidential campaign, and trying to cover it up. whether you owe your comprehension of the judicial process and system to a law degrees or to watching my cousin vinnie or runaway jury like me, understand the process at this point is pretty straightforward. people like you and me respond to our jury duty summons or called to the courthouse, will be questioned by attorneys who will evaluate the answers and in an attempt to gauge bias. both legal sides will have avenues to dismiss a number of potential jurors as part of a process that is as much an art as a science. the dock plicated factor here, is trump himself. with such name recognition, it will be a challenge to assemble a clean slate jury, as the "new york times" reports, at first

blush, trump's jury pool appears to be unfriendly. >> 70% of manhattan 100 million registers votes are democrat and many know the defendant well since he once called new york his home and made its name in the tabloid newspapers. juries have found him lie able for sexual abuse and defaming his accuser and inflating his worth to obtain better loan terms. so appreciate the historic nature. and especially because with so many delays in so many other trump trials, the hush money case in new york is likely our last and only hope at accountability for donald trump before americans head to the polls. it is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. factor solicitor general and legal analyst neal katyal is here and with me is sue craig at the table, she's brought presents in the form of

information. and our friend democratic strategic and director of the public policy program at hunter college, bazil scott. tell us what you got. >> the jury questionnaire. the judge on monday morning is going to have a room full of protective jurors and he will start by asking them if they -- right off the top, if they recognize any of the potential witnesses that might be mentioned and then he's going to say do you have a good faith reason why you shouldn't serve and he's going to hear them out. and then he's going to start with a list that we now have of 42 questions for the prospective jurors that remain. and some of them are not surprising. they start out basic. what neighborhood do you live in, what do you do for a living. and as we go through this, there is no question about how they voted but i think you're going to get to that. you'll be able to get that from the questions.

do you participate in any organizations or advocate groups and if so which ones. what cable networks do you watch? maybe msnbc. do you read "the new york times"? do you watch fox news or news max? a on truth social, are you on twitter? so there is a lot of questions like that. and then as we go through, they get a bit more probing about donald trump. you have had a -- have you had a relative or a cross friend worked for a company or organization run by donald trump or anyone in his family. have you or a relative or close friend ever worked or volunteered for a trump presidential campaign. have you ever attended a trump rally? do you currently following donald trump on social media? have you ever considered yourself a supporter or belong to any of the following, and among them are the oath keepers and the boogaloo boys. so we're getting very granular. do you have any strong opinions or firmly held beliefs about whether the former president may be criminally charged in state

court. we get very specific. they don't go down to do you believe the election was stolen. as they go through, they're going to get to the end and they're going to have a lot of information about these jurors. >> what is the -- you're basically under oath, when you answer questions, these are prospective jurors. >> that is right. it is interesting because there is a lot of discussion and this just to back up, the jury is so important. now i've sat through a lot of trials including now oddly several involving donald trump. and it is crucial who gets on and i think one of the things that and -- i think people who watch the show know, people will try to get on this jury. i know someone who months ago thought that the trial was going to start on march 25th and put their -- they waned to be an a juror that day and pe they put it on to potentially get on the trial. >> if they're sitting on some

boring -- >> right. >> some civil trial. >> but if i'm both sides, that is what i'm worrying about, jurors trying to come in and that happen. so i think they're going to be watching for all of that. but it is so important who gets in the jury box, it is going to decide the whole show. and there are people out there who don't know who donald trump is, but at the end what the judge is trying to get to the bottom is, at the end of this and what both sides are listen to, you might have bias, but ott the end of the day can you set aside your feelings. when i sat in the trial against the trump organization, there were people that got up and said they hated donald trump and couldn't be fair. some said they could. and those are sort of -- whether or not they are answering honestly is another question but we hope that they are. but some people say i hate the guy but i can. and there are other people on that that loved him. and they also could be -- and

there wasn't, i know new york is famously democratic, but there are people walking in who votes for donald trump and people who didn't. >> of course. what is the degree and does it differ from any ordinary trial, of making sure that no one gets to any of them. that no one walks up to them or trying to do their own reporting or are they protected or shielded in any way? >> they're names, i believe, will be shielded and then separately even in -- i mean probably in an overflow room because there is very few reporters. there is a pool, partly because the courtroom is going to be full, filled up with prospect spiff jurors. i understand we won't see them from the overflow room but the names will be -- they're not releasing the games. in the e jean carroll case, they were advised never to tell

anyone you were a juror. and both sides will know their names but there are rules an releasing them and harassment of them. >> there will be rules against harassment against them. and neal katyal, do you think that those rules will be followed? >> i think they will be followed. i've had the privilege of actually working on a jury selection in one of the trials that my wife had, the derek chauvin case and i saw the magic that is involved in selecting a jury and it is hard to find people who have no views about something. but it is not hard to find hope-minded people who will listen and, so, i know there is a lot of reporting today that said who is on the jury is really going to matter and so on. i think that is a little bit overblown. most fair-minded people will come to the same results in a criminal trial. it is than just watching the news and making up your mind because there is an orderly

process and rules of evidence, there are instructions to be follow and the like. and one of the things this phase, that starts on monday, is going to be about is ferreting out, do you have some inability to be impartial or do you hate donald trump or love him so much that you can't listen to the evidence and come to a fair-minded conclusion. is there is one way in which i think it is always worth worrying about juror bias and that is the asymmetry between the prosecutor and the defense. in order to convict donald trump, they have to run the table and win all 12 jurors. you only need one them to say i don't think he's guilty in order for the conviction to be -- in order for there not to be a conviction. that is part of the system of justice, to make sure that defendants, including people like donald trump, have so much protection between them. now donald trump is saying, well, it is not fair that i'm tried in new york.

it is 70% democratic and stuff like that. the answer to that is, donald trump don't commit your crime in new york. the constitution, the sixth amendment required the trial to be in the place where crime occurred and that was in new york and it sure looks like it is starting on monday. >> neal, from the jurors to the facts, let me show you michael cohen, who is -- i don't think it is an opinion to say the star witness or one of the star witnesses. let me show you how he testified before congress about the facts in this case. >> mr. trump directed me to use my own personal funds from a home equity line of credit to avoid any money being traced back to him that could negatively impact his campaign. and i did that, too. without bothering to consider whether that was improper. much less whether it was the right thing to do or how would

it impact me, my family, or the public. and i'm going to jail in part because of my decision to help mr. trump hide that payment from the american people before they voted a few days later. >> now, neal, i'm in the category that without a law degree and learning moist of what i know from movies. but michael cohen, but for the twist of fate, the twist of history, the twist of this twisted president, was on the inside and he became a witness because it all goes south, right. what is your sense -- those are plain fakes and more sorted facts. michael cohen didn't have sex with a porn star and he went to jail and he wasn't running for a president and donald trump did. just give me your sense of how the facts will be presented by

people like michael cohen and hope hicks and others to the jury? >> he's kind of a star witness as you say. he's in the room where it all happened. he was one of trump's closest confidants and he's saying trump ordered him to do this. now, what the defense is going to say is, look this is a convicted felon and can't be trusted and the like. but think michael cohen is going to have the receipts. i doubt it was like michael cohen just personal generosity on his own pulled out -- that got him to take out a home equity loan of $130,000 against his house and in order to pay stormy daniels. i mean, there is no allegation that cohen owed any money to stormy daniels or anything like that. he was obviously doing it for donald trump. now, i guess, you could say, well he just went rogue and did all of this on his own and maybe that will be an argument of the defense. but i think it is tough. and i think cohen's testimony ultimately is going to come down to him saying, donald trump is a

cheater. not just a cheater in terms of family stuff, but a cheater on the 2016 election. and the narrative so far has allowed the lurid sex stuff to overcome what the case is really about. the case is really about us having a set of campaign finance laws that are designed to ensure transparency so the american public knows where money is coming from when it is flowing into an election. and here what happened was the access hollywood tape came out, trump looked horrible, and then a couple of days later, this payoff occurred in order to prevent a story from coming out that would have been event even more damning in terms of his cheating nature and things like that. and that is every day of the week, a very serious campaign finance violation. and cohen's testimony in the room where it happened is going to go to the heart of that. and yes, the defense will try to take down his credibility, but

think it is just going to be tough because there isn't any obvious alternative explanation for what cohen was doing. but following his boss's orders. >> you know, sue, you covered these facts at the time. there is another piece of this that we sort of -- that the passage of time has dulled our memory of it and that is pecker and the inquirer and the tabloid piece but all of those facts will be presented anew to a -- alongside the things that have remained in the public eye. like michael cohen's long and twisted process of sort of detangling himself from trump's orbit, being thrown in jail by bill barr. you know, he's such a -- there are so many chapters in michael cohen's book. but the tabloid story hasn't been told. just refresh our memory on that. >> that is a catch and kill situation. not only was the nationalin inquirer in the middle of the stormy daniels case but karen mcdoggal was another story and they're in the middle because

they were accused of falsifying business records. so this is all a piece of it that is going to come together when we get through -- eventually get to the trial. but this is now all coming into focus. and the one seat that will be noticeably empty, will be allen weisselberg, another big character. he witnesses a lot of it and today is heading to do another tour of duty at riker's island. >> which is amazing. if we go back, he's going back. i mean, there is one -- one of the optics that are so -- i mean, the only parallels are in mob prosecutions, where all of the -- i don't know what you want to call it, the lieutenants go to jail. and in terms of drawing on institutional memories, i mean, i don't know what story the prosecutors will tell. but the parallels of trump's minions going to prison are undeniable. >> right. and even the allen weisselberg

story that we're seeing today where he's headed to prison, i mean he lied under oath at the civil trial and he won't be testifying -- and the government doesn't want him to because he could potentially -- he'll contradict potentially what michael cohen's testimony is. so they just added, he lied under oath and they went after him for it to make him not credible, just to take him off the table. and it really is just -- it is been a manic, i don't know what other word for it from beginning to end. i've been covering this for a long time and they're like the characters of my life at this point. it is something to see these pieces and how they're moving and these people and their lives, a lot of it has unraveled in different ways. you look at allen weisselberg's life and michael cohen's life is forever changed, all of this in one way or another in service to donald trump. >> >> and i mean, the idea that -- hope hicks is expected to be a witness. >> right. >> stormy daniels is expected to be a witness.

i mean, all of the lives not tarnished by the sorted nature, but the criminal act is what neal described. it is the cover-up and it is, as mark pomeranz talks about, it kenton while donald trump was president of the united states. >> and someone is trying to rig an election in his favorite the heart of this. and for all of the kinds of manhattanites and new yorkers that will sit on this jury, they'll have to figure out. did this guy really do it. and you know, new yorkers might be 70% democratic, but we also care deeply about elections. >> and cheaters. >> and cheaters and fairness. and care about accountability. and one of the things that i just want to -- the politics is interesting because one thing that i keyed in on "the new york times" story is the kind of juror that donald trump might be looking for. that blue-collar worker,

sanitation worker or the firefighter, but there is also the thread that he might be interested in a young african american man. and why is that? because he could find -- he thinks he could find sympathy among those men in that he could say, look at how unfairly i'm being treated by the system as were you. and this, to me, is this continuation of an extraordinarily dangerous campaign because he's trying to use this -- everything that he's going through and all of criminal cases and all of the indictments to say that the criminal justice is treating me unfairly just like it treated you unfairly. not realizing or -- realizing but not talking about and accounting for the fact that he was pulling the strings a lot of times in that system to make it so unfair for a lot of those individuals. so i call that out because i think it is really important because it is part of this larger theme that he's been trying to push in the campaign. look, they're doing the same

thing to me that they've done to you. that is not correct. >> so i want to shoot those protests the murder of george floyd. >> said now exonerated as children should be given the death penalty. >> does it have resonance? >> i don't think so but what is concerning if you look at the recent polling that said that more african americans are starting to take another look at donald trump, more so than since richard nixon in terms of the number of african americans that may vote republican. i don't think that is real but there is a talking point that said it is real and i think we need to debunk it because that is where donald trump sees the opening. >> you're going to be there. you're going to be able to ask you at 4:00 every day what happened? >> yes. >> very early monday morning and get that seat. >> we can't wait to talk to you. neal thank you for starting us off.

bazel sticks around. when we come back, arizona sending women back to the 19th century, actually. republicans in the state and across the country actually panicking. that is how bad it is, over the consequences of things they put into motion. their own actions now criticizing a law that they revived. and plus the gang is getting back together. donald trump, the chief proent of the big lie, teaming up to try to over turn the election in the house. that one be one speaker mike johnson to promote election integrity. we'll tell you about it? and one of the people who witnesses trump's chaos and danger has a warning of what happens if the ex president returns to the white house. john bolton is our guest. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. e. that goes places a regular mop just can't. ♪♪

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i just feel like, it should be out of the government's control. >> i feel like we're going back in time. >> i'm not for abortion. but i think it's not the place of the state to punish a woman for deciding to have an abortion. >> it is such an archaic law created by men to control women's bodies and puts fear in my heart because i know that women are going to die. >> arizona citizens and voters reacting to the news that their state supreme court had upheld a law from 1864. from before the state existed, from before women had the right to vote, that bans all

abortions, except for those though save the life of the mother. and mandates principle time for any doctor who performs one. it is one most severe laws in the country and amid backlash, republicans in the state of arizona fell all over themselves to try to condemn the supreme court ruling despite having supported restrictions in the recent past. and that includes the disgraced ex president who helped to overturn roe. >> does arizona go too far? >> yeah. and it will be straightened out. >> do you think doctor should be punished to perform a abortion. >> i'll let that up to the states. everything is left up to the states rights. >> really telling on himself. cutting through all of the denials and efforts to change

the subject. well eva birch, who made wavers when she spoke on the floor of the arizona state legislature last month but the ordeal she was forced to endure to obtain health care after finding out that her baby, the baby she was pregnant with would not survive. here is what she said yesterday, reminding the people of arizona and all of us, exactly who is responsible. >> please believe me and understand, women will die. please stop killing us with your arrogance, and if you feel like your political party has been hijacked by radical extremists, that is because has. i'm calling to the people of the country to police consider your loved ones, consider the reality of the consequences of these decisions and join us. and be with us. and vote in november. this is a hostile and inhospitable environment for people who want to have children and grow their families. this is the result of republican political extremists. and we have to break through this.

we have to do better. please come with us. please help us. >> and it is a pleasure to introduce, is arizona state senator eva birch and the president and ceo of the national women's law center and brasel is with us. i played some of what i see you say publicly and i have to ask how do you take this epic personal tragedy, which is what any of these tragedies are for any woman who is pregnant and who has a loss or has a diagnosis, how do you find it in you to put it all out there for all of us? >> thank you so much for inviting me and for having me here today. it is such an important conversation. i actually was grateful for the opportunity to be able to speak about my experience. i just think that the wrong people are controlling the conversation a lot of time that

they take advantage of that these are private matters and they take advantage that people are grieving and are struggling and are not very likely to want to share that. i thought it was really important to break through some of the stigma that exists and to have a more honest and more comprehensive conversation about who the abortion issue is and what abortion looks like. i was still pregnant when i made any initial speech and i had my procedure days later and i wanted people to come along with me so they could understand better and people who are curious and had questions and feel uncomfortable asking questions to have somewhere to go, and something to look towards. >> what have you heard -- let me first, for our viewers that didn't see it. let me show our viewers our original floor speech. >> i don't know if you know this. i learned that i'm pregnant and right now the safest and appropriate treatment for me ant the treatment that i choose is abortion. but the laws that this

legislature has passed has interfered with my ability to do that along with countless others. i stand with those who have had to grapple with and navigate arizona's restrictive laws surrounding abortion. and in a time when the decision is being made were complicated enough. i'm with them. i appreciate them. i am them. >> i am them. you almost never hear from from any public figure and especially around these issues. what i wanted to ask you was, what have you heard in return? because sometimes putting yourself out there brings back the most unexpected sort of opening up from other people, from your constituents? >> that is exactly what the response has been. i've had countless emails, people sending mail here to the senate, people sending me messages on social media and through my campaign website, just so many people coming to me and sharing their own personal stories and just feeling grateful that they feel like they now have a seat at table. it is so difficult to watch

these things happen and to feel so helpless and to feel like you don't have a voice. and i'm just so grateful that i'm been able to have some control over the situation if in in other way, in the messaging about what abortion care is and to be able to again represent so many people who have been through similar circumstances and others that were sometimes much more difficult and complex. >> you know, arizona supreme court is in the exact position that the united states supreme court is in, right. 81% of all americans think that abortion should be between a woman and her doctor. in arizona, those numbers aren't too different. what could be done? i mean, the public reaction, the universely unpopular nature even among republicans is clearly, but what could we do for women who in 14 days will have to live under this draconian new law? >> well, i'll tell you, there are a couple of possibles right

now. the most is to pass something through the arizona legislature. and what really needs to be said about that is that we could have done that at any point in time. we could have done this two years ago when abortion clinics closed down around the state of arizona after the overturning of roe. we've known this was litigated at the arizona supreme court and now it is too little, too late, and people are scrambling to fix this problem. so we could potentially do something here in the arizona legislature to repeal that ban. otherwise, we're looking at november and at the ballot initiative. i'm sure they'll continue to work through the lower courts and our attorney general is working to see if there are solution on her end. but the two things that are the most pressing where people could have sp influence are here in the legislature and writing your representatives an making phone calls and doing what you can to

put pressure on the republican legislature that is obviously all of the democrats are supportive of this repeal. and again, just really getting involved and making sure that we get this ballot initiative across the finish line and people come to vote in november to make sure it passes. >> nowhere, where abortion was on the ballot, has it failed at the ballot box. and i wonder what you want people to know about your state and what you want people to know if arizona becomes the next state to embark on a ballot process? >> well, i am very hopeful, again, that we could follow in those same footsteps. i think the most important thing for people to know is that this ballot initiative isn't a fix. we need to elect pro-choice candidates up and down the ticket from our presidency down to the sate legislature. and even if we do get a short-term fix, we have republicans on the record for

years with their voting history, with their public statements, with legislative proclamations, promising us that they're continue to try to erode these rights. this fight isn't over yet. and yes, we need to do what we can for this ballot measure and we need to hold our elected accountable and we're holding ourself accountable to promote and elect pro-choice candidates up and down the ticket in arizona so this doesn't continue to happen because it will if we continue to have the representation if arizona that we have now, these rights are going to continue to erode the way that they have for decades under our current republican leadership. >> it is just an extraordinary, extraordinary flash point. i'm going to ask if you you'll stick around. i want to bring bazzel into the conversation. i have to sneak in a short break. we'll all be right back. a short break. we'll all be right back.

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and the relief can last for years. take the next step at findrealrelief.com to arrange an appointment with an expert physician to determine if bulkamid is right for you. results and experiences may vary. move beyond the leaks. there is no one more responsible for the fact that we are here today than donald trump. he set out to bring us here today. he appointed supreme court justices who overturned roe v. wade setting us back decades. the girls today and the young women do not have the right that we once did because of donald trump. donald trump is dangerous, and reckless. the 1864 ban is totally out of touch, our most basic rights are infringed. >> and we're back with arizona state senator eva birch.

about i understand you have an updates on the doing ones at arizona. >> i'm with you here but i'm also at work where we are meeting once a week on wednesdays. we had a certain expectation that something would come to the floor today. to be voted on. we did have a number of republicans who have been backpedaling and say they would support and they have adjourned the bill. and representative hamilton has a bill to repeal the ban that we have an opportunity to hear today and they have just adjourned without hearing the bill. so the next time we meet is going to be wednesday and there is really probably nothing we can do until then. it needs to be said that the republicans are in a sticky situation with this. because if they allow a democratic bill to go through and to help resolve some of this problem that they have created then that gives a win to the democrats which is not a good political game for them.

but if one them comes up with a bill, it is going to anger their base. and so, i just don't know if they're going to do the right thing for arizona right now and it is really a big unknown and a big question mark and i'm very concerned they might decide to just let this go. >> i mean, fatima, it is even a black box in terms of what they consider the right thing to be. because even kari lake is, she posted on social media that she opposed the ruling yesterday. after calling it a -- you know, a great law in past. she said she was calling on katie hobbs and the state legislature to come up with an immediate common sense solution that arizonans could support. it is safe to say they can't strategize their way out of a paper bag. the truth and the facts and i try to always bring this back to what women will endure starting in i guess 13 days and that is one of the most draconian abortion bans in the country.

>> it is too late to have this both ways and i'm so grateful to the senator for sharing her story, because even it gives a bit of a window to what we're going to see. arizona will be joining so many other states in this moment where people are having traveled to get basic care, where doctors are fears of being punished, that there is great health and economic risk. and people are angry about it. i'm angry about the idea that we have a civil war era law that has been resurrected and is controlling the lives and futures people in arizona and anywhere in this country. it is terrible. it is not what people want. and you cannot have it both ways. you can't generally say, i don't support going back to the time of the civil war, and then do nothing about a ban like this. >> you know, it is always two

separate things but i think they've now been joined forever and thanks in part to certain folks we're having this conversation with, right. that women will suffer immediately, it is always more urgent and important and pressing and that more newsworthy than the politics. the politics will whack you on side of the head here. it is like a tacky joke. how bad is it? it is so bad kari lake is against it. >> and frankly when you heard and hear the president say make america great again, this is how far back they want to take it. civil war era bill. only 30 years before that bill was passed it was illegal to teach black people how to read and writech that is how far back they think america should go. and, you know, it is an important campaign. does he or she understand me. does he or she understand who i am. and if i did not know the state

senator's political party, that story resonates. and i think that is the challenge not just for democrats to elevate and amplify that story, but that is what republicans are afraid of. that you have more and more women that have the ability to tell that story regardless of their political affiliation, it resonates and that is why for biden and the biden campaign and the democrats, that money advantage becomes really important. because you could take someone like a rubin gallego running for senate in arizona and elevate him and take the candidates down ballot and elevate them around this issue, and dub that money into state parties so when donald trump said we're going to push this to the states, great, news we could mobilize people to start flipping state legislatures. >> fatima, we don't know what the wiring of donald trump's brain looks like for a long time but ever. but it is clear on this issue

things spark. he's so proud of himself for appointing supreme court justices who did what he wanted to do, to overturn roe. that is what he told us he needs in hi candidate for appointment to the supreme court. but it is like two wires touch and they spark, because he already -- he can read a poll and he could read that 81% of all americans believe abortion should be leave ever left up to a woman and her doctor and the government should have no role. so he can't read that as a sentence. can he read. and to watch them spark, on a daily basisond a daily news cycle, i just want your voice on what our responsibility is as people would try to cover him and come up short. but letting him say the states rights, it is false on every level. it is only covering this and only law because of donald trump. >> i want to be clear that this is what it looks like to send it back to the states.

so he cannot have it both ways. he holds total responsibility for the chaos that have been unleashed and we have to keep reminding them, this is what it looks like to send it back to the states. but the other thing is, he keeps using about what week an abortion ban for every corner of this country would be appropriate. so he wants to send it back to the states and he's taking credit for the supreme court decision and he has plans that are not yet clear about at what point you won't be able to access abortion care. none of it is okay with people in this country. >> fatima and arizona state senator eva birch, i said this when you weren't here and now that you are here, it should never feel normal to see a woman, especially an elected official have to reveal their most painful private moments, it is extraordinary and i think you did change the conversation and changed our coverage of the news at a very -- yesterday.

thank you very much for spending time with us to talk about it today. basil sticks around longer. coming up, speaker mike johnson goes all in again on trump's election lies, again. in the walk up to the 2024 presidential campaign season. that is next. ♪ you need t-mobile... ♪ ♪ home internet with 5g. ♪ wait! t-mobile has home internet? ♪ what a feeling! ♪ ♪ to have t-mobile now! ♪ i met with a turbotax expert because i had two full time jobs... lawyering and... liaming. count on me, mia. i'll file your taxes for you with 100% accuracy, guaranteed. let a turbotax full-service expert do your taxes as soon as today. ava: i was just feeling sick. and it was the worst day. mom was crying. i was sad. colton: i was diagnosed with rhabdomyosarcoma.

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and saying is wrong but he's willing to do it in an effort to please donald trump. and that is what makes it dangerous. >> the speak of the house is a collaborator to overthrow the last election. >> absolutely. >> liz cainy and her signature clarity reminding every last one of us of the specific role that the current speaker of the house played in trying to over turn our democracy and up end the american experiment. the big lie really was mike johnson's breakout moment in the maga congress. experiment. the big lie was really mike johnson's breakout moment in the maga congress. "the new york times" called johnson, quote, the most important architect of the electoral college objections in the house, aimed at keeping trump in office after he lost. we point this out today, because today, nbc news is reporting that johnson and trump will be holding a joint news conference on -- wait for it -- the subject

of election integrity down at mar-a-lago on friday. joining our coverage, nbc news capitol hill correspondent ali vitali, basel still with us. ali, what's this about? >> well, look, the idea that he's going down to mar-a-lago, as it's been explained to me and some of my colleagues is more about mitigating this motion to vacate threat from marjorie taylor greene than it is about the election integrity, and i take your point about that being the irony of the topic of discussion on friday, given the way we were talking about mike johnson right as he was being elected to the speakership, where we were talking about the fact that he was one of the key architects in getting house republicans onboard with a plan that would overturn the election results in four key swing states that had gone to joe biden in the 2020 election. now, you might be wondering why i'm standing in the hallway of doom, as i like to call it, because this is where i spent a lot of time when johnson's predecessor, mccarthy, was being

ousted from his job, and all of the other people were trying to succeed him in that role. that is not quite what is happening here, but it is certainly the thing that hangs over the negotiations that house republicans are doing in the room behind me right now. technically, and i'm going to keep peering behind me, just in case the speaker himself actually makes an appearance, but technically, nicole, what they're talking about here is the failure of the fisa reform, the foreign security reform piece about data privacy and the ways in which the government can surveil foreign adversaries. i'm waiting as more lawmakers came out who voted against that. but the reason that fisa being stopped on the house floor today is to significant, is because it is yet another reminder that the ways that johnson's republican conference control him on doing the basic business of the day. fisa reform was one of the key things that a lot of republicans actually wanted to do. now the fact that it failed on the floor, a rule, not the actual vote on fisa, but the

rule failed on the floor, that's the procedural motion to get on the floor, those rule failures really don't happen until the mccarthy or johnson era, and it's a reminder of the morass that is happening here in congress with this house republican majority, the inability to govern is central, and it's partly why we're going to see johnson go down to mar-a-lago two days from now. and i guess the connection between the two stories, ali, is that is we've got rfk's campaign saying it out loud, so i'll say it out loud, the strategy that trump is drawn to, one of them, is to have the whole thing thrown into chaos and to turn it over to what you just described as a morass. it looks like johnson is all too well to enable that. >> well, chaos is the latter, as "game of thrones" used to say, and, there are house republicans who used to and have benefited

off of that line of thinking. the fact that you saw congressman matt gaetz being able to oust with the help of several of his other colleagues, then speaker mccarthy. now you've ushered in the era of speaker johnson, and frankly, it's the same but different. it's the idea that any one topic can trigger any one disgruntled house republican to oust the speaker from their job. here's what's different about this thing. the fact that ukraine aid is what launched marjory taylor green launch a motion to vacate is important. as i've talked to some house republicans, including adam smith, who is one of the ranking members on the house foreign affairs committee, he said that him and some of his colleagues would be willing to come to the aid of speaker johnson, if it meant getting a voted and passing ukraine aid, but republicans and johnson knows this well, if democrats were the ones that were helping you keep your job, that's not going to solve any of your problems in the near or long-term. and that's again the conundrum

that the speaker finds himself in. you've got democrats who might be willing to work with him, but that doesn't work within his own party. >> well, it doesn't work until you're willing to do this thing that has become a bumper sticker, but used to actually sort of govern people like ohn mccain, put the party over your country. >> love ali's "game of thrones" reference. she's absolutely right. and i am completely convinced that this is only an opportunity for johnson to try to smooimsd himself fwrakts of marjorie taylor greene. but make no mistake about it, he is going to mar-a-lago, which is the scene of a criminal investigation. why would you do that if you are speaker of the united states congress? but what i will also have to imagine what's going to happen down there, donald trump will set the rules of engagement, meaning he'll tell speaker johnson, this is what i need you to do to get me to win. i think we all need to be prepared for that.

if we can consider what kind of instructions or signals he might give to judges, potential jurors or witnesses, why would we not think that that's also happening with mike johnson? >> oh, we know it is! we know in the transcripts that have been developed through the january 6th investigation, he called doj and said, just to corrupt, and i'll my accomplices do the rest. mike johnson is one of those, in trump's words, our accomplices. >> we have to expect that going forward, still more both interference. >> unbelievable. ali vitali, thank you with your "game of thrones" reference. basel, thank you for spending the hour with us. coming up next around here, our next guest says if trump is re-elected, there will be celebrations in the kremlin. former national security adviser john bolton on what a second trump term would mean for our democracy and our standing in the world.

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we need to be showing the american people that donald trump is dangerous to be in office again. we need to keep the focus on that, on the things that he says he's going to do in a second term, that are dangerous and how he would not uphold our constitution. and how he wants to exact revenge on his political enemies, because that is not an inspiring message to me. it's only about donald trump and what's good for him.

good afternoon, everyone. warnings about the danger to our nation and to our democracy. it's a disgraced, twice-impeached, four-times indicted ex-president should be elected to a second term. the most urgent warnings by and large with a few exceptions came from women and young women in most instances. women that worked in the trump administration, like cassidy hutchinson, sarah matthews, like you saw there, alyssa farrah griffin and women from other branchs of government. people like liz cheney. liz cheney has made it her life's work to see donald trump held accountable politically and legally. the women speaking clearly without flinching, often at great personal risk to their safety, to their careers. liz cheney isn't in congress anymore. in order to warn people and put their fellow citizens on notice about what they witnessed the first time trump was president and warn us about what could be

in store next time. >> what would it mean in your mind if donald trump became president again? what would a the trump term look like? >> fundamentally, a second trump term could mean the end of american democracy as we know it. and i don't say that lightly. >> the fact that he feels that he needs to lean into being a dictator alone shows that he's a weak, feeble man that has no sense of character and integrity and no sense of leadership. >> he knows how to use government better this time. he can put in die-hard loyalists who can weaponize every level of government against his detractors, against the american people, against the media. it's almost too scary to fully wrap your head around what it could look like. >> it's almost too scary to wrap your head around, and with the stakes so high, the veritable chorus of former trump officials putting the nation on blast about the dangers of a potential second trump term has come to include chiefs of staff and mike

pence. as we have said on this program before, all the calls now coming from inside the house, including from trump's former national security adviser, ambassador john bolton. he offered his own chilling prediction of what a second trump term would mean for america, in his best-selling book, "the room where it happened." in a new foreward, bolton writes, facts are blunt instruments and a mountain of facts demonstrate that trump is unfit to be president. bolton predicts a second trump term would be a, quote, retribution presidency, in which trump will install white house staffers who will follow his orders, without asking troubling questions. staffers who will not be known for independent, creative thinking, just personal fidelity to trump. and if that's not enough to keep you up at night, bolton warns, vast portions of the national security machinery will simply grind to a halt in the second trump term. we are in an entirely uncharted territory. he ends with this, quote, if trump's first four years were bad, a second four years will be worse.

it is this kind of forceful, unequivocal rebuke of donald trump is something we need. it's something we're waiting to hear from other members of trump's cabinet and inner circle and goes straight to the heart of the conversation we've been having on this show, as part of our series, american autocracy, it could happen here. where we examine how donald trump could cause our democracy to backslide into something more closely resembling autocracy. something that bolton addressed recently, with a little gallows humor, when asked if trump really has the appetite to be a dictator, bolton said, trump doesn't have the brains. he's a real estate developer, for god's sake. that's where we start, john bolton. thank you for being here. >> glad to be here. >> the warnings are urgent and dire. tell me if you have personal concerns. bill barr took a very aggressive posture with trying to halt the publication of your book. >> sure, i take trump at his word that he's going to run a retribution presidency. i think it's always all about

him and the "stolen" election something he's not going to let go, or anybody else that he thinks has crossed him, from the beginning of his political career, right up until the present. so it's a long list. and it may take him a while, but it will demonstrate, i think, how he throws the government into chaos, when he tries to use the justice department or possibly the defense department to carry out this retribution. >> you know, he wanted to have the taliban at camp david. i know you disagreed with his foreign policy impulses and instincts, as did general kelly, who i think has come out concerned about trump starting a war with north korea. just detail the national security risk that was and what it would be if he were out there without people like you or general kelly. >> i think it's important to understand. and this is especially important for trump critics to understand. he doesn't have a philosophy. he doesn't think in policy terms, as that's conventionally understood in washington. he thinks in anecdotal, ad hoc,

transactional terms, seeing through the prism of how does this benefit donald trump. trying to get from "a" to "b" with trump is no easy task. and since it's constantly refiltered through the notion of where he will benefit from it, it's very hard to know where he will go. he has simple-minded ideas about how the world works. he thinks, for example, he said it quite explicitly, if he has good relations with the head of the foreign state, if he has good relations with vladimir putin, then the united states has good relations with that nation. that's nonsense. personal relations have their place in foreign affairs, as in everything else, but the hard men of countries like china and russia, know what their national interests are, and they pursue them. donald trump doesn't have a clue. >> what is the specific danger of just first thing donald trump wants to do is leave nato. he wanted to do it his first term. people like yourself and hr mcmaster got him to not to, but if people like that aren't

there, what does it look like if america withdraws from nato? >> it would be a catastrophic mistake for the united states. it wouldn't mean simply the end of nato, although that would be the inevitable consequence. it would cause our allies around the world to doubt our commitment to them in japan, south korea, australia, any country that relies on the united states for mutual security. trump doesn't get that, because he doesn't fundamentally understand alliances. he thinks we're defending the europeans and they won't pay us. he doesn't understand that mutual security means everybody is more secure. and that there's strength in alliances. licenses can be a pain in the neck to manage. but if they serve the national security interests, as ours do, nato in particular, to get out of it will cause negative consequences for the united states you can't even imagine. >> and you wrote in your book, which has been out now for a while, that you were concerned that our u.s. foreign policy had been corrupted as it pertained

not just to russia, but turkey as well. did you ever get to the bottom if there was a financial interest in trump's decisions when it came to turkey? >> no, it was never pursued. i told the authorities within the trump administration that the justice department and the white house's council's office, that i was worried about what trump had said to turkish president erdogan and a number of other things he had done. and i was often accused of doing everybody, but at that point i made the referral in effect, and i'm not sure anything came of it. >> so, you believe his policies, just what he said out loud, let alone what he does, if he's there again, are catastrophic. that his foreign policy that he carried out while you were there was corrupt. what is your plan for making sure he's never president? >> well, i think it's important for people to understand that they are rolling the dice on a second trump term. there are many people, including particularly republicans, who will support him, who think that

what he did in the first term is a sure guide to how he'll behave in the second term. i think that's nonsense, because a second term, very different political environment, and therefore, a different personal calculus for donald trump. let's just take a couple of examples, like abortion. he was for appointing justices to reverse roe v. wade, which i think was the right thing to do, because it was an incorrect constitutional decision, but when you come down now to the hard specifics of what does personally feel the policy on abortion should be, just in the past few days, it's been, what does he think in the morning, what does he think in the afternoon. he doesn't care about the subject of abortion, he cares about donald trump, and that's something that you see over and over again in his behavior. >> 81% of americans disagree with you and your position on roe. >> the constitution isn't up for a vote. there is no -- there is simply nothing in the constitution that addresses the question of

abortion one way or another, which means that it was open for the political process. and when the court decided roe, it took the issue out of the political process. that turned out to be a big mistake. if in 1974, the court ruled, there was no rule, we would have fought it out politically back then and it would probably be settled by now. >> well, we didn't have you hear to debate abortion policy. we can do that another day. i want to understand, sarah longwell is running a campaign of republicans against donald trump. and she said that she is, quote, obsessed with permission structures. and i wonder what role you're willing to play in terms of leading republicans away from voting for trump again, as something you describe as catastrophic and corrupt and dangerous. >> right, well, my view is neither trump or biden are fit to be president. >> is biden corrupt and

catastrophic for u.s. world foreign policy? >> no, but he's not on duty 24/7. >> what's worse? someone who's not on duty or catastrophic or corrupt? >> if neither one passes the bar to be fit, there's no comparison. neither one -- >> who are you going to vote for? >> i'm going to write in somebody. >> you're not alarmed enough -- donald trump hasn't ruled out pursuing you. all the things you say, if we're to believe them at good faith, why wouldn't you vote against him? >> i am going to vote against him. >> i'm going to vote for somebody other than donald trump. in arms control parlance, we call this a problem of incompensables. you can't measure biden and trump along the same metric -- >> but that's what voters are going to be asked to do. why don't you do what voters are going to be asked to do? >> i am, i'm measuring them both unfit. i'm going to be very unhappy whichever one is elected. >> you have relationships all around the country. fiona hill was just here, people around the world don't view both as an equal threat to democracy in the world order.

>> i view both as incompetent to handle the job. and it's not -- >> what has biden done on foreign policy that's incompetent to handle the job? >> i think he's completely misjudged china. he's got the middle east in chaos for not supporting israel, our ally. he has mishandled -- >> he went there. do you think trump would have gone to israel after 10/7? >> it depends on whether trump would -- >> but trump would give it back. what would you like republicans to do in november? >> i think they should not vote for trump. i understand given the arithmetic that may mean that biden is elected. that's not going to make me happy, but i would be happy to talk to any republican and i talk to many of them frequently to say that this misplaced idea that they have that trump is better than biden is simply inaccurate. >> what do you make of liz cheney's commitment to do everything in her power, i think

she said, every cell in her body will go towards making sure trump is never elected again? >> i think it's a worthy effort. i hope he's not re-elected. >> do you view the threat of trump as -- his celebration of orban, was that something that you saw behind closed doors. do you view the threat of trumpism akin to the threat of an autocracy? >> i do not believe that trump represents an existential threat to democracy. and i think that probably puts me at a minority on this network. but i think our constitution is strong. i think our institutions are strong. i think our people are strong. donald trump doesn't have the capability to overthrow all of those institutions. he will do enormous damage. but you have to diagnose the problem accurately. if you overstate the thet, you risk turning people off who won't believe it. if you understate the threat, you may not be prepared. i think the damage he did in his first term is largely reparable. i'm worried the damage he'll do

in his second term may be irreparable. once you start down the slide of the abuse of power that trump is engaged in, it's only a matter of time before democratic presidents do the same thing. >> in defense of this network, you've had 13 minutes by yourself, which is a pretty, i think, significant commitment on the part of this network, to hear your views. so, in the minority or not, there's an interest and understanding of how people who see the world you do are looking at their choices in the election. and what i'm trying to square is the urgency and the fervor of your warnings and what you say you're going to do. and again, voting can be private. so i appreciate you disclosing what you're going to do in the first place, but how do you look at maligning and saying you're maligning the press, simply so that no one believes what they see or hear. they only believe, as trump said, what he tells them to believe. how do you align him wanting to end the american transition of a peaceful transfer of power? how can you say that those aren't autocratic tools from the

tool kit? >> well, if he could get away with it. >> he did! >> he's no longer president. he failed to steal the election. >> well, he plans to do it again. >> well, he couldn't steal the election when he was sitting in the oval office. i think he's less likely to be able to do it -- >> but that's only because there were people around him who didn't let him. and you're telling is that none of those people will be there. again, i appreciate that you're even here. you don't have to be here. and i appreciate your time. you've been sort of helping us to try to understand this for 15 minutes. but how you square your warnings about what he would do in a second term with your confidenc. >> i'm not confident that the dangers of what he would do would end up in permanent damage. but i am confident that the republic is stronger than donald trump. if it's not, then the whole experiment has been a failure. you know, when the roman republic fell, it took a julius cesar to do it. i didn't know julius cesar, but

i'll tell you, donald trump is no julius caesar. nor was there before him the poppies and others that undermined the roman republic. we are much stronger than that. and i think when people overstate the case against trump, they turn off potentially persuadable voters. >> do you think liz cheney does that? do you think she overstates the case against trump? she says if he's re-elected, he won't leave. >> i think that's wrong. >> but he didn't leave last time with people -- >> he did leave. >> he didn't want to leave. >> no president -- joe biden doesn't want to leave, either. >> well, there's never been -- again, comparing the two, no one has ever refused to leave or concede. he still won't say that he lost the election fair and square, that has radicalized a section of the population. you know more about radicalization than i do. >> it is dangerous. it is not existential. >> is it not existential if the rule of law is under threat by a former american president? >> not if people stand up to defend it. >> what would tip it towards

existential in your view? >> i think you have to have much more of the appearance of what happened in nazi germany before hitler came to power. i don't see mobs of people supporting trump. >> where were you on january 6th? what did you watch? >> it was a riot. if you ask a lot of republicans, i don't know what the percentage is, but i think it's very high, they are gritting their teeth to vote for trump. >> why? >> i regard that as a mistake. but it's not that they're enthusiastic about donald trump, they fear joe biden and kamala harris. it's not unreasonable for them to do that. what's unreasonable is that we weren't able in the republican party to find a challenger who could beat him. notwithstanding, he only had about 30 to 35% of the republican party. >> yeah, he does go into this significantly weaker. do you worry about being on the wrong side of trump? >> i couldn't care less. look, i think a lot of people are vulnerable. i'm not in anymore special

position than anybody else. but, you know, if it's a fight to preserve the constitution, that's what we're here for. >> what do you make of trump running as someone, who for the first time in our history, his own vice president won't support? >> i think it shows that within the republican party, his support is a lot weaker than people think. and it's the -- it's the kind of tragedy for the country that 70 to 80% say they didn't want a rematch of 2020, and yet that's what we're going to have. >> it was immensely valuable for us to understand how you see things. i appreciate you taking almost 20 minutes of our questions and appreciate you being here. >> glad to be part of the minority. >> again, you can say what you want. don't knock the network that guay you 20 minutes to share something that -- >> that's right. you'll get criticized for having me on. >> precisely, precisely. you were my guest. the book is called "the room where it happened." it's out now with a new foreword. ambassador bolton, again, thank you so much for your time. >> thank you. when we come back, our panel will weigh in on what we just heard. ambassador bolton will also turn

to news about how the disgraced ex-president is looking to evaluate third party candidates in order to damage joe biden. john bolton thinks that might backfire on him. and we'll talk about how the republican party became infected with vladimir putin's talking points, including insane new comments by a sitting senator who's no stranger to insanity, tommy tubberville. and an update on the mar-a-lago classified documents case. judge canon taking a step to protect witnesses from donald trump's wrath. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. (psst! psst!) ahhh! with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary. spray flonase sensimist daily for non-drowsy long lasting relief in a scent free, gentle mist. flonase all good. also, try our allergy headache and nighttime pills.

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former assistant u.s. attorney maya wiley and u.s. national analyst, john heilemann. also joining us is paul rykoff, the founder of iraq and afghanistan veterans of america, the host of the independent americans podcast, which this week dives into all of these issues that we're discussing. paul rykoff, i'll start with you. it's important, i think, to understand that the people who are against trump and have been warning about trump come from different world views, and that is a powerful thing to understand, heading into november, and they're not all planning to do the same thing, which, you know, if you view him as a dire threat, as john bolton says he does, and we take him at his word that he views trump as a threat, he doesn't plan to vote for john bolton, who is the only person who could actually stop donald trump if you view him as a threat. your thoughts? >> well, they're all focused on the same enemy, but they're using different tactics and strategies, and that's really the most important takeaway.

ambassador bolton may not be everybody's cup of tea, but he will move people. he will some independents, some moderate republicans. he will move some people who for some reason are still undecided, especially in critical swing states. and we are going to talk about rfk jr. or other independent candidates. that's ultimately what this year is all about. it's about influencing a couple of thousand of people in a couple of swing states. if bolton will take a couple of pieces off of trump, i think i'm rooting for it. it doesn't sound like he's got the integrity to step up and say who he's voting for. but he's going to sway some people. and that's a net positive for those that care about freedom and want to see trump lose. >> he did say that he was going to write someone in, which i think some republicans have done. this will maybe be the third time that some republicans have done that. again, i'm interested in -- it was my sense that the damage to hillary clinton in '16 was done

by both donald trump and bernie sanders. and i believe in terms of credibility, when a similar attack comes from across the ideological spectrum, it can be bruising and searing. if donald trump is being attacked in the same way as a threat to u.s. national security by john bolton, i think that voters hear that differently. the same indictment of the same person from two different spots. it is unsatisfying, though, to hear him equate joe biden and donald trump in any way, shape, or form. >> unsatisfying and inaccurate. i think the idea that michael michael bolton or john bolton or any of the boltons will move a lot of individual boats. john bolton says -- >> he said -- >> no, i'm not criticizing paul, i said, the idea -- of your point is that the cross-ideological thing is about a chorus.

and if you look at republicans, it's not about one specific person or another specific person, it's that he's part of a chorus and some of these people sing base and some will sing baritone and some will sing soprano, but the effect of the left, the center, and the right, in kind of looking like, we are the world campaign against donald trump, is a powerful thing. and i think you're right that it -- all of them will reinforce one thing, which is how the sanders and trump thing worked with hillary clinton, and to some extent other people. which is, hillary clinton is not changed. she's the establishment, we want change. and all of them, bernie sanders' critique was the same. and you'll have across the ideological spectrum saying, unfit for office, danger to democracy. whether bolton thinks it's existential or just dire, no real voter cares about that. but hearing the chorus and all

of those different pitches of, this man is a threat to our way of life is potent. >> i agree with that. i didn't hear what paul said, so i'm not agreeing or disagreeing. but i think this point of what's actually at stake in the election and what the choices are that is important. and look, we already know, at least in one recent poll, 40% of the electorate can still be persuaded one way or another. we are still both -- on one level it will move very quickly, on another level, there's a lot of time in this race, particularly for people who are not yet either fully paying attention or are sort of saying, i'm still trying to figure it all out. and i do want to go back to the hillary clinton point, because this is a point we need to hear more about in our discussion about what it means to save our democracy and what the choices

are. 2016 was the taking for granted of voters of color. this is a turnout election. one of the questions is, do people believe you will make a difference for the better in their lives, in their actual daily lives, and if you put a donald trump up against a joe biden or anybody else who may run, that's always going to come down the question, for people of color, if you're not talking about their bread and butter issues, these larger kind of, you know, john bolton appoints are much less salient. and whether you're putting your feet in their streets, i mean, remember that donald trump who lost, where he has done poorly including in places like michigan, he dirty talked black people. he talked about who we were, who he thought we were, it was not the kind of thing that was demonstrating a willingness to

appeal to that lived experience, and i think we have to rens anybody who wants votes, for people who need to turn out, if they are to win an election, they have to speak to them directly, and stost going to be about bread and butter issues. >> feeling like joe biden is doing that? >> i think what we saw what he said and did in the state of the union, he demonstrating an understanding to do that. he talked about schools and tutoring. he did talk about democracy, but he also talked about democracy in ways that do speak to people's experiences. if you say voting rights, we got it, you were that it's bloody sunday, you're talking to people who are in these particularly swing states, where the margins were 33,000 votes or 12,000 votes. those are also the same states that are intentionally making it difficult for traditionally democratic voters, voters of color to vote. >> you know, one thing that john bolton said, and keep in mind that i said this on the air, was that rfk's candidacy hurts trump

more than biden, because who's rfk attacking? he's attacking biden. if you're a trump enthusiast, but you heard the cassie hutchisons and think that these republicans don't like him and rfk is attacking biden in a way that also excites me, that's not really platform that much, but i think that's right. anecdotally, some enthusiasts from 2016 that i happen to know are all in with rfk. >> i honestly think that we don't really know. rfk is an anti-vaccination -- someone who goes right to a lot of trump's base e, people in that right-wing conspiracy realm who have the most famous last name in the history of politics. so there are a lot of people that have different readings of rfk jr. there's not a lot of voters who

just think, robert f kennedy jr. and whose been very progressive on environmental issues, very progressive on certain other things. he's a weird cat and you can play and the part of the devious ness is to try to play off the different sides, hold him up, what do they call it? >> a kaleidoscope. >> the kaleidoscope that is the weird kaleidoscope that is bobby kennedy jr. and show different sides to him to different parts of the electorate. might target, try to get democrats who don't like joe biden on fossil fuels to be -- to go off with bobby kennedy, try to peel off different constituencies in different ways. i don't think we know, but the trump kpain knows that there's only one of these outsider candidates who's a threat to trump votes, and that is bobby kennedy. they're not worried about cornel west taking away donald trump votes and not worried about jill west taking away votes. >> trump couldn't get the vaccine out, and now we think

he's going to build a kaleidoscope to microtarget voters not with just his own message, but with rfk's. >> i think part of the thing, one of the thing about john bolton, he's basically saying, here's why trump's not an existential threat, too stupid to basically destroy democracy. and one of the things we're learning is that the people that trump's next administration is going to be more competent, evil, worse, but more competent. more able to work the levers of government to do bad stuff, and the campaign is more confident, too. >> that is something that sarah matthews and cassidy hutchison point out. i have to sneak in a quick break. there's so much going to. no one's going anywhere. we'll be right back. h going to no one's going anywhere. we'll be right back. ve a few moe minutes. let's go! >> tech vo: we came to her with service that fit her schedule. >> woman: you must be pascal. >> tech: nice to meet you. >> tech vo: we got right to work, with a replacement she could trust. we come to you for free! schedule now for free mobile service at safelite.com. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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as he defends against an unprovoked invasion in his own country, ukrainian president zelenskyy also has to navigate u.s. domestic politics and donald trump. zelenskyy says he's reached out to for several months now, asking to hear the secret ideas that trump boasts about. in a brand-new interview, zelenskyy is warning about russia's influence and infiltration here in the united states, including the suggestion backed by trump allies, that trump could just end its war with russia by handing over land. zelenskyy said this in an interview with axel springer media outlets. if the deal is that we just give up our territories and that's the idea behind it, then it's a very primitive idea. zelenskyy continued that any deal that merrily gave up land to putin in exchange for an end

to hostilities, would just open the way for more russian wars of conquest. a negotiated peace had to leave no room to carry out his plans. meanwhile, leave it to tommy tubberville. >> we're thinking about giving ukraine more money to waste it. these people can't buy anymore houses. they have beach houses all over the world. let's start thinking about our country. >> there's no evidence of that anywhere. we're back with maya, john, and paul. paul, i'll let you go first. >> just when you thought tommy tubberville might go away, he's back to show us all that he's the dumbest and maybe the most corrupt member of the senate. zelenskyy's right. putin's talking points and propaganda has infiltrated our politics and tommy tubberville

is an example and so is rfk jr. and people across the right side of the political spectrum. they are carrying the talking points on behalf of putin. putin loves this. he's celebrating this. this is the weaponization of our politics that he could only dream of just a few years ago. our enemies are celebrating. and they're celebrating because leaders from one-half of our political establishment are parroting putin's talking points. this is a critical time for ukraine. ukraine is like a political candidate that's been down in the polls over the last couple of years and it's a critical time for us to keep ukraine in the spotlight and to hold politicians accountability who are not only undermining ukraine, but undermining american national security, like tubberville did a couple of months ago, when he held up military. tubberville is not serious about our military and putin loves it. >> you know, paul, with you know better than i do now, but independents used to really recoil at the idea of any candidate that is helping our enemies. i mean, that just used to be

sort of pay more claeser attention to what's in the news. it's an invasion of ukraine. and they pay closer attention to national security issues, sometimes, than the coalitions of the traditional coalitions and i know these times are not traditional, but bear with me. i mean, tell me how sort of interested independent voters are in the kinds of arguments you're making. >> i think a lot! i really think they are. i mean, i think many of them are veterans. more than half of the next generation of veterans are independent. and they're people that are just tired of the partisanship and want to put country above politics. rfk jr. is something different. he's capturing the label. he was a democrat six months ago. his running mate was a democrat like three weeks ago. and he's very dangerous, because he's echoing the putin talking points. he's also promoting 9/11 securities, an anti-vaccinationer, and i think over time, he will take from trump space more than he will from biden. but i think that independents

are still left without a candidate. if rfk jr. didn't have his name and didn't have his running mate's money, and didn't have the independent label, he would be a crazy version of dean phillips. he would be very low in the polls. he's just drafting off this opportunistically. the real independent movement is waiting for a candidate, and right now, i think, by default, will go to biden. especially if bolton and other moderate republicans and other moderates continue to step out. and former military leader, like mark milley, like admiral mullen, like others who are trusted to be above partisanship. i think that they will listen to them, respond to them, and ultimately influence how they vet. >> so milmilley, it would appea came pretty close to saving the country on january 6th. i hear this on and off tv, that they're waiting for people like general chairman milley to speak out about what he saw when he worked for trump. >> i think -- you know, we were

talking about this off air a second ago. i think there are more voices you can add to that chorus and make that critique of donald trump more powerful, but we were talking off air, what maya was saying, if you think about two sets of voters. one sets of voters, kind of center of the electorate suburban voters who might vote republican in a normal year, peel these people off as you did in 2020, but there's this democratic base that needs to be animated. they're waiting to hear about a vision of the future from joe biden that they can get enthusiastic about. that's what the democratic base voters that joe biden will need to do both of these things in order to win. >> yeah, that's, in a sense, the tension point here in the conversation about what role does robert kennedy jr. play, when you're talking about independents, because for so much of that democratic base, joe biden is a centrist. he is the guy that should be appealing to the independents,

whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing, particularly if you're on the progressive left. so it's kind of surprising if you're at that -- if you're that base. that base that is critical to turn out. that base that in milwaukee and in detroit did not turn out for hillary clinton in 2016. didn't go vote for the other guy, but, you know, turnout, turnout, turnout. the energy level that says that it really will make a difference if i show up. so in that context, right, folks know what happened on january 6th. having anyone from the trump administration or the military saying what happened or didn't happen isn't going to change their mind. so i do think this question, and we're already seeing it in the polling, right, which is more educated, white men, militating towards biden, i think, is an indicator that for the people who are looking at the distinctions, there is an importance there to understanding that.

but i think we know economy, jobs, you know, whether the country is going to start heading in a direction that feels more stable, all of those things will be big factors for them. >> and i take your point. i take your warnings. do you think, again, the biden/harris campaign hears you? >> well, i've been talking about it, so, if you're listening -- no, i think many of us have been saying, look, let's learn the lessons that democrats cannot assume the stays the base, not because they'll go vote for the other person, but if they don't believe their lives are going to change, they won't show up. >> and if you're not in their face asking for their vote, every day again and again. >> maya, john, paul, never enough time with you guys. to be continued. when we come back, two trump legal developments to report today including another judge rejecting another attempt by

donald trump to stop the hush money trial. we'll tell you about it after a very short break. stay with us. very short break stay with us it worked guys! ♪yeahhhh♪ downy rinse and refresh. -dad, what's with your toenail? -oh, that...? i'm not sure... -it's a nail fungus infection. -...that's gross! -it's nothing, really... -it's contagious. you can even spread it to other people. -mom, come here! -don't worry about it. it'll go away on its own! -no, it won't go away on its own. it's an infection. you need a prescription. nail fungus is a contagious infection. at the first signs, show it to your doctor... ... and ask if jublia is right for you. jublia is a prescription medicine used to treat toenail fungus. its most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness... ... itching, swelling, burning or stinging, blisters and pain. jublia is recognized by the apma. most commercially insured patients may pay as little as $0 copay. go to jubliarx.com now to get started.

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days to start the trial from starting on monday. it comes just minutes after a hearing on the motion wrapped up. joining our coverage, former deputy assistant attorney general for national security, msnbc legal analyst, mary mccourt is with us. your thoughts on this one, the third attempt in just three days to make sure that this first-ever criminal trial of an american ex-president doesn't start. >> it feels kind of desperate when three days in a row, you go and engage in brief oral argument and lose within minutes and come back the next day to try again. i mean, i think they're really throwing everything at the wall, hoping something will stick. in a really desperate effort to delay the start of this case. i mean, monday, we started with change of venue, mr. trump can't get a fair trial in manhattan that was rejected. the merits of that will be reviewed at a later date.

tuesday was based on this gag order. we need to delay the start of the trial, because mr. trump can't even talk about things that's important for him to be able to talk about. denied. and today, it looks like it was a potpourri of different arguments. one is that judge marchon needs recused because of his daughter's business. one is that judge marchon is unfair, because he makes us file a letter requesting permission to file motions, even though as the appellate division judge apparently asked today, according to reporting, you been denied the opportunity to file motion, and the answer was "no"! and within minutes of that oral argument today, she denied that request for a stay. so it's really remarkable. i'm not sure i've ever seen three days in a row, this attempt to delay the start of a trial with absolutely zero success whatsoever. >> are there things that the federal system can learn from new york state? >> well, this kind of thing really doesn't happen in the federal system. there would have been other

pre-trial conferences where these things would have been hashd out. there's not anything in the federal system like this sort of single appellate division judge or an article 78 proceeding. there would be issues that mr. trump could take up on appeal. other issues that he could not, until the end of trial. we've talked, i think, about that before, that ordinarily a defendant gets to accumulate all of the issues that they think, where they think mistakes were made, and they can appeal them, if they're convicted. there are a few exceptions to that. one is immunity, right, which is why that issue in the january 6th case is up now in the supreme orders, and mr. trump taken advantage of those appeals in the federal courts. but otherwise the closest thing to this article 78 procedure is a petition for a writ of a mandamus, which is basically going to the appellate court saying what the judge did here was so wrong, it's clear and the disputable it was wrong, i need you to intervene appellate court, even at this sort of late date or even sometimes in the

middle of trial. this is something some people have talked about jack smith potentially doing with respect to some of aileen cannon's ruling or lack of rulings on things he's sought rulings, potentially going up to the 11th circuit with a petition for a writ of mandamus. there are different mechanisms for seeking appellate review, but this is extraordinary three days in a row to have these things filed so brief le, have oral argument, and denied so briefly. >> trump is desperate for this one to not start. he's basically running on the facts of the election interference case, surrounding himself with the insurrectionists themselves, even the ones in prison. he doesn't deny the facts of the mar-a-lago criminal case either. he said when you're president, they let you do it. he's not running as a guy who slept with stormy daniels either is he running as the guy who paid off the national enquirer

to cover it. >> he is using these cases, right, as part of his campaign, that he is a victim, that he's being persecuted by a weaponized department of justice in the case of the federal cases and a weaponized district attorney's office in the case of manhattan and fulton county, georgia, cases. but even though he's using that to raise money and to gain support, i think he's afraid of a conviction. and he's afraid if this case starts that not withstanding he will every single day try to use it to campaign on, i think he's worried that it could result in a conviction, he could face jail time, and that might actually impact his odds in the november election. >> mary mccord, thank you very much for spending time with us on the breaking news. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. g news a quick break for us we'll be right back.

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in the face of the nearly unprecedented rise in the number of violent threats made against lawmakers, one that is expected to continue to increase ahead of the 2024 election, the capitol police are stepping up. they're hiring three prosecutors dedicated to investigating and prosecuting those threats. the new hires first reported by "the new york times" and now confirmed by nbc news are in part an effort to ensure that serious threats actually lead to serious consequences. in 2023 the capitol police investigated more than 8,000

threat assessment cases. only 27% of the threats reported to federal prosecutors were prosecuted. these hires according to "the new york times" have been designated by the justice department as experts on congressional threats who can advise other prosecutors across the country on how to make threat prosecutions stick. we'll continue to cover this story. another break for us. we'll be right back. story. another break for us we'll be right back. with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be. so i hired body doubles. indoorsy tina loves a deluxe suite. ooh! booking.com booking.yeah (vo) if you have graves' disease... ...and blurry vision, you need clear answers.ng.com people with graves' could also get thyroid eye disease, or t-e-d, which may need a different doctor.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we're so grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> hi, nicole. thanks so much. i'm ari melber. this is "the beat." boy, do we have a good show. tonight we a preview of this criminal case that begins next week in new york. my special guest toornt veteran lawyer lanny davis who represented president clinton and knows his way around high