♪♪ tonight on "the reidout" -- >> so for 52 years people have wanted to end roe v. wade to get it back to the states. we did that. it was an incredible thing. an incredible achievement. we did that. and now the states have it. and the states are putting out what they want. it's the will of the people. >> trump continues to take credit for ending reproductive rights, lying it's the will of the people. it's the latest example of the

toxic merger of maga and the evangelical right. also tonight, allen weisselberg is headed to prison for a second time. the 76-year-old accountant taking the fall again for trump who is just days away from the start of his own criminal trial. plus, growing alarm about airplane safety as yet another whistleblower comes forward with concerns about boeing planes. but we begin tonight with a message to christian nationalist extremists, we the people, will never agree to your hand maid's tale vision of america. ever. but that clearly won't stop them from trying, which leads us to the unholy alliance between donald trump and christian nationalists. on monday, a day before the arizona supreme court decided to drag women back in time, specifically to the 19th century, arizona republican state senator anthony kern

invited an anti-abortion prayer group to the senate floor. seen in a video filmed by an anonymous attendee, kern led the group through a prayer and speaking in tongues as they knelt over the state seal. >> i'll note that senator kern also happens to be under investigation for falsely claiming to be a will jit mat arizona elector for donald trump back in 2020. now, having grown up in the church myself, i clearly is no problem with these people's faith. you can believe and worship however you want. but that display belongs in church, not in a senate chamber. in fact, according to the third president of the united states, one thomas jefferson, the

establishment clause of the first amendment of the constitution was written to create a wall of separation between church and state. and before the right wing media trolls attack me, i would love for them to ask the state senator how he would feel about a muslim prayer group doing the exact same thing on the senate floor. since donald trump's election, the separation of church and state is crumbling, all around us. under the guise of religious freedom. and yesterday was a brutal reminder of that reality, set in motion by six u.s. supreme court justices who are dogmatic advocates for advancing their particular version of christianity in the public square and turning it into law. the arizona supreme court picked up the baton and delivered a punch in the gut to women in their state, who are rightly angry and frustrated. >> it's such an archaic law created by men to control women's bodies. and it's just -- it's not for the state to say.

it's not for anyone to say. >> i feel like the supreme court has started to follow that christian fundamentalist christian side of not getting abortions. >> it should be out of the government's control. i feel like it's women's bodies and they should be able to do whatever they want with their own bodies. and like no one should be able to control what i want to do. >> i would say i don't see a very clear separation of church and state in this country, just because i see way too many people and way too many politicians, mostly that are pointing to their own religious beliefs as their reasoning as to why they don't want to have abortions. >> earlier today, arizona democrats took to the very same floor where republican senator kern prayed for the end of women's bodily autonomy to demand that it be restored and that the legislature repeal the 1864 law. while shouting shame at their republican colleagues who thwarted attempts to roll back that law. the stark reality is that women don't want this. democrats don't want this. hell, most republican and independent voters don't want

this. but that's exactly what they are getting because of a majority -- because a majority of state legislatures, which write the laws for all of us are dominated by men. >> half of the population basically are women and only one third of legislatures are women. and so you look at state after state where they're passing these abortion bans and the majority of the legislatures doing it are men. telling women what to do with their body. i've kind of had it with that. >> in all of the 50 state legislatures as the vice president said, only 31% are women. but if you ask women, he says it's the will of the people to jail physicians, punish women and he makes it clear whose will it is. >> you're getting the will of the people. it's been pretty amazing when you think. i predict november 5th the most important day in the history of our country, and it's going to be christian visibility day.

christian visibility day. christians are going to come out and they're going to vote like never before. >> which is why men like steve bannon, charlie kirk and others accuse women of being his tear kal, emotional and unworthy of equal rights while they vociferously support trump. >> culture issues as a code word for white rural christian heterosexual male nationalist, you know, that are just focussed on their wives being too mouthy, sir. >> yeah. well, look, let's just be frank. women have become too mouthy. >> birth control like really screws up female brains by the way. every sing of one of you need to make sure your loved ones are not on birth control. it creates very angry and bitter young ladies. >> will will have the right to vote tomorrow if you wave that magic christian wand. >> no.

>> why not? i want to get into why not. that's great. >> because we had a christian nation tomorrow and women did have the right to vote, we would not have a christian nation within 50 years. >> we are witnessing an alliance of christian nationalists, anti-feminists and fascists working together to make sure they maintain control over us all under his eye. joining me now is isaac, national political reporter for the "washington post," and author of "finish what we started" the maga movement's ground war to end democracy. and npr national political correspondent sara mccannon who has reported on the growing political power of the religious right and is the author of the exvangelicals. thank you both r for being here. i'll start with you here at the table, isaac. this is steve bannon's vision, a

christian white nationalist run by white heterosexual so-called christian men. i'm a christian. that isn't a christianity. >> ban nongrew up in a catholic military school where he learned about history as a clash of civilizations between the christian west and the muslim world. a huge part of his rise back when it was breitbart and the alt-right and trump's rise was this fear of islamic extremist terrorism and christianity was core to that. but fundamentally the maga movement as bannon conceives it is nationalist. christian nationalist is a strand of it. not the only form. when i visited him in his office doing some reporting for my book, he surrounded by books and one of them out there on the table was called "the case for christian nationalists". >> camp of the saints. i didn't realize that mark burnett is an evangelical christian. his wife was on a tv show where she was sort of playing into

that as well. so, is the idea that what they think they're going to do, deconstruct the administrative state, break the government and the federal and state level and put their people in charge and then voila, it doesn't matter what women think or minorities think. they will be ruled by this small group of men. >> bannon's idea, if you redefine the two-party system as a populist, right of center nationalist party, called the republicans, versus a what he would call a globalist, elitist liberal party, he thinks that's a recipe for the republican party to rule for 50 or 100 year. >> let's bring you in, sara. because what they're using to get more ordinary people to sign on to this is what they're calling christianity. white evangelicalism. you and i were just together yesterday at yale. we happened to note there was a piece put out by group of actual evangelical christians saying, no, this is not evangelicalism. and saying religious nationalism

is not part of what we are. that man, bishop barber is an evangelical, this particular strand of white evangelical christianity, how has it become so powerful? >> you have to look back many decades to both the rhetoric that has been coming from evangelical leaders, going back to the moral majority in the late '70s, early '80s and the idea that's been infused into much of the white evangelical subculture that america is and should be and always was a christian nation, that christianity is central to american identity and it should be prioritized in the government and across the culture. and that without it, everything will sort of fall apart. this is rhetoric that i heard in my christian schools growing up and it's rhetoric i think many people have heard from their pulpits and increasingly so. you can talk about what is the relationship of faith and politics. many people's values infuse their politics. that's nothing new. but this is an idea of sort of

christianity above all other faiths. not all evangelicals believe in this. >> right. >> when you look at data, polling data, white evangelicals express white nationalist sentiments than other groups. we hear trump speaking to that. god bless the usa bible and talks about christianity under siege, he's tapping into that idea. >> and they're also doing this at a time when we still have not gotten a lot of women into state legislatures. just going to put up the map. women as a percentage of state legislatures, it's a third nationwide. the yellow is where it's 20% or so. the light orange is where it's 20 to 40%. the red is where it's 60% and only nevada is red. you know, we're talking about a country in which women don't have a lot of power. talk about the women who despite that are siding with these christian nationalist men. there are a handful of women going along with this. >> i think it's more than a

handful. i mean, much of the anti-abortion movement is led by women. we saw at least in 2016 -- i would have to check the data for 2020, but over half of white women in 2016 voted for trump. >> yep. >> i'm not saying they're all christian nationalists. but i don't think it's a small number of women. you could talk about the reasons for that. but the bottom line is that women are underrepresented in american politics today. and but some of the women leading these movements are people like marjorie taylor greene who herself -- is a self described christian nationalist. so, i think it depends on the woman and depends on the part of the country that you're talking about. but you know, you make a good point. women remain underrepresented and that may be why -- at the same time we've also seen work by the religious right for many, many years and the republican party to build infrastructure in state legislatures. so, many of the state legislatures don't represent the

will of the people or, you know, even in red states we have seen some of these ballot initiatives in the last couple of years, even in red states who have voters purning back against efforts to restrict abortion rights. the electorate may be conservative and oppose abortion but not to the degree their state lawmakers are enacting in legislation. >> yeah. and marjorie taylor greene and also lauren boebert, two divorcees. i'm not sure they're living their faith. they tend to not believe in no-fault divorce. >> what is the end game in steve bannon? >> the stolen election myth is about fundamentally is a starting premise that the country is conservative. and it's about who the country belongs to. and that's why it's not really about the machines or the mules and all that stuff can kind of change or go away or get disproven. but what really matters is this idea about who america is for -- >> white people. >> well, in the view of some

members of the movement -- >> white christians i should say. white christian conservatives. >> well, i think we have to be -- we have to be realistic about the gains that the polls are showing that trump is making with voters of color. and that's something that this campaign is extremely excited about. diversifying that coalition, not that they're going to ever win a majority, but if they can make a few inches gain -- >> candice owens here and there that go along with the idea of white christian male supremacy. >> if they can either suppress or even convert a few voters of color in those key states with large cities, that can make a difference in a close election. >> you know, what's interesting here, sara, is that donald trump won over the christian right initially after the "access hollywood" tape when jerry fallwell jr. endorsed him in part because his lawyer at the time was assisting jerry fallwell in dealing with racy

photos of himself and his wife and the pool boy. and that was very helpful to jerry fallwell at the time. so, the christian right has made this bargain with donald trump, not really based on morality, is it, it's based on power. >> it's interesting you mention the access hollywood video because i think that -- i covered that news like a lot of people did. and i think a lot of people thought that would be a tipping point. >> yeah. >> white evangelicals would move away from trump. that was just before the election, of course, in 2016. and they didn't. and i think we've seen, you know, fast forward eight years later, trump delivered on many things that white evangelicals want and they see him as someone who will do that again as someone who will fight for their causes. and i think his character is secondary at best. >> yeah. clearly. i will note for our audience that many of these people that are voting for this stuff, including on the state supreme courts, are up for re-election in florida and in arizona.

pay attention to what's on your ballot because you do have a chance to change some of this personnel. isaac, we'll be reading your book. sara mccannon, we'll definitely be reading yours as well. thank you before being here. coming up next on "the reidout," trump is so terrified of next week criminal trial he attempted an once again failed for a third time to try to delay it. "the reidout" continues after this. eidout" continues after this

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replacing george this week is my chief financial officer, allen weisselberg. you think george is stuff, wait until you see alan. >> it's not often i will agree with donald trump. allen weissweisselberg, his apprentice pal is heading back to rikers island for the second time in connection with his dealings with trump. he was sentenced to five months in jail after pleading guilty to two counts of perjury for lying during both his deposition and his testimony in trump's new york civil fraud trial. he already served three months last year after pleading guilty to tax fraud charges in a scheme involving the trump organization. this comes just five days before trump heads to another new york court for the start of his hush money election interference trial. one in which weisselberg helped arrange the reimbursement to trump's former lawyer michael cohen who advanced the $130,000

to adult film star stormy daniels. that money was to keep her quiet before the 2016 election because of the affair that she and trump allegedly had. got all that? for the third time this week an appellate court judge denied trump's last-ditch efforts to delay that trial. today's arguments from trump's lawyers that the emergency hearing included judge juan marshawn's failure to recuse himself and the judge's ruling that presidential immunity could not be used to deny certain evidence trump claims are official acts. "the new york times" notes, legal experts strained to recall any other defendant filing three emergency appeals in three days. most called it unprecedented. one called it silliness. and at this rate, with five days to go before jury selection and a smattering of other legal issues still unresolved, mr. trump might not be done. joining me now is lisa ruben, msnbc legal correspondent. i mean, it is so clear, lisa, donald trump is terrified for this trial to begin.

he will do anything. will any of these last-ditch appeals stop this trial from happening on monday. >> no. they will create a lot of havoc and chaos in the interveing period of time. i heard somebody said today something like, we have thursday and friday to go and then monday. i didn't say anything but i was thinking to myself, you forgot saturday and sunday because lawyers don't stop and filings don't stop. you can't force the court obviously to respond, but that doesn't mean the next several days including the weekend, including late at night or the middle of the night we won't see further efforts by this team. >> the question i guess is all of these legal filings that donald trump is doing, if they don't stop the case from starting, are these issues he could use in an appeal? >> sure. and ordinarily they would be issues that you would see in an appeal post conviction. >> after, yeah. >> correct. so the reason that he's asking for a stay right now and he's premising it on these very special kinds of appeals is because none of these issues are the kinds of issues that would lend themselves to what we call

a mid case appeal, interlocutory, all the sorts of issues you have to wait until the end to get your hearing on. >> i can't imagine what the presidential act would be of writing your lawyer a reimbursement check because you paid off your porn star person you had an affair with. maria bartiromo has a new solution for donald trump. here it with. >> oh, no. >> why isn't she fired this guy? she could easily do that. and he's -- attacked going after innocent citizens, law-abiding citizens in new york instead of protecting us. this malicious prosecution is what we face everyday. >> why governor kathy hochul are you allowing recidivism, firing alvin bragg for allowing criminals to keep doing it over and over again. i will call your office today, kathy hochul. i would love an answer. >> okay. maria bartiromo is going to demand the governor fire the attorney general.

fire the ag. >> yeah. the manhattan district attorney is duly elected official. he actually faced many opponents in the democratic primary when he was first running for election. i would like to think that there are many new yorkers who would think that calling kathy hochul and calling for alvin bragg's removal would be election interference about this case that is about election interference and not about a porn star and her formed affair with the president. let's go to florida. so much to keep in mind. aileen cannon a ruling now giving trump until may 9th to disclose the specific classified documents he wants to use at his classified documents trial. it does just feel like she's just induling whatever small, minor thing he brings up in order to give him more time. it's just so clear now. >> i will push back a little bit on that. yesterday we saw a ruling from aileen cannon that went the way that the special counsel's office wanted. they had asked her to reconsider a prior order in her case that

would have resulted in the revelation of nearly two dozen witness names. and they pushed back hard and said will you reconsider this? and while she did so bebrujingly and sharp language, ultimately she agreed with the special counsel's office, it's too risky, ginn this political atmosphere, the necessity of witness safety and needing to protect them against witness interference and tampering to let people see their names. >> maybe i'm just cynical. don't you think maybe she did that because she was afraid if she said no they would go to the 11th circuit. she didn't want to give this case up. my horrible theory about her, she wants to hang on the case, not let the 11th circuit come to her so she can dismiss it. >> i can understand why people are skeptical about judge cannon and also like to think as a person who believed in the rule of law and federal courts my whole career that federal judges no matter what their initial inclinations, no matter how they came to a particular president's attention, that they're better than that. >> even if they're trying to audition for the supreme court because alito and thomas will

retire if donald trump becomes president. the bribe is implied as it belongs to donald said. >> i don't see aileen cannon as a credible candidate. >> under trump? >> even trump i think would look for candidates to the supreme court that have substantial appellate experience. now, she was an appellate lawyer before a federal district court judge. if you're looking for somebody who trumps want to nominate to the supreme court, i would challenge people to look first at fifth circuit judge jim ho is likely to be trump's first nominee. they should be a lot more scared depending on their policy perspectives about a jim ho than they should be about an aileen cannon. >> jim ho of course because he weighed in on the subjects of whether or not women should be able to access mifepristone and that thing. >> weighed in on transgender care and inmate in a prison can go buy their -- can be assigned to a prison of their chosen gender, things like that. he has taken positions again and again that i think many americans would find absolutely

terrifying. and he's an experienced appellate jurist who served as solicitor general of texas, now a fifth circuit judge obviously and former thomas clerk. >> we say scaring is caring on this show. you're lovely but you scared the hell out of me. thank you very much. that means you care. up next, boeing had a series of technical problems over the past few months. now a whistleblower has a terrifying new warning about the structural stability of one of its planes. how we got to this point coming up next. how we got to this poin up next. i hear that music and my feet just start tapping. my grandchildren, they're sixth generation of dancers. it's what my family is all about.

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♪♪ if you've been on a plane in the u.s., there's a good chance it was built by boeing, although you probably never thought about who built your plane until boeing's problems started to pile up. the company has been under intense scrutiny since january when a door panel on a 737 max 9 jet blew out mid flight, opening a gaping hole and forcing an emergency landing. a scathing audit last month found dozens of problems and said boeing failed to comply with its own quality control procedures. but that is only one of the many recent problems involving boeing planes, including at least six probes involving them just this year. that includes a boeing southwest flight that lost an engine cover during takeoff on sunday,

forcing an emergency landing in denver. last month a boeing plane from south american airline latam went into a nose dive on a flight to new zealand injuring 50 passengers before pilots were able to regain control. last month a japan-bound united airlines flight lost a tire just after takeoff from san francisco international airport. three senior executives, including the company's ceo, have stepped down amid the safety crisis, only adding to the year's long reputational free fall at boeing. founded in 1916 in seattle the company gained success as part of the early military industrial complex, sending the navy war planes for the first world war. they shifted entirely to military production during world war ii. after the wars, boeing built a thriving commercial business and they were doing great until an equal competitor came along, europe's airbus. the presence of a foreign competitor planted the seeds of boeing's down fall, especially

once it cannibalized its biggest domestic rifle, mcdonald douglas. new york magazine reports, harry stonecipher's view a corporation's first and only duty was to maximize shareholder value, to make the own stock price go up in the short term. stonecipher, became the ceo of the new boeing. over the years, quality control and safety took a backseat to the stock price. boeing made end runs around government regulation into a cozy relationship where over the years the faa allowed boeing to police its own behavior. and that largely led to its biggest recent problem. the on going 737 max crisis that led to two deadly plane crashes in 2018 and 2019. over the years, two major boeing

whistleblowers have come forward, john bar net, a former boeing quality control inspector, who raised safety concerns at its charleston, south carolina, plant and was found dead last month in what authorities claim was a suicide. and now a boeing engineer is saying the 787 dreamliner is so shoddily constructed it could break apart mid flight after thousands of trips. boeing strongly denies the allegations and says it's fully confident in the 787. but there's a lot more to boeing's nose dive from the gold standard in american aviation. and that's coming up after the break. n american aviation. and that's coming up after the break. with nurtec odt, i found relief. the only migraine medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine. talk to a healthcare provider

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do you blame boeing? >> i think if this hadn't have gone on so long, i would still have my son. my sons would still have their brother. and we wouldn't be sitting here. so in that respect, i do. >> that was the mother of john bar net, one of the two major boeing whistleblowers. barnet had raised concerns about plane safety flaws back in 2017. he was found dead in march in what authorities called an apparent suicide. the case involving his 2017 whistleblower complaint was scheduled for trial in june. barnet launched separate legal action from boeing after riling in 2017 accusing the company of denigrating his character. a close friend told an abc

station in charleston, south carolina, that barnet predicted he might end up dead and that a story could surface that he killed himself. the woman identified only as jennifer said, quote, i know that he did not commit suicide. there's no way. joining me now is jeff wise, aviation journalist and co-coast of the podcast deep dive, mh 370. that sounds fascinating. let's talk about boeing. they seem to be a triumph of the deregulatory mindset and maximize shareholder value mindset of american companies. >> yeah, no absolutely. as you pointed out in your earlier segment, harry came in with this jack welch, all these guys who come up with the ge academy, as it were, yeah, this is their mantra. we have to cut costs. we have to boost the share price above all else. and we'll pay the ceo a ton so long as he gets that stock price up. at a time when boeing could have invested in a clean sheet

airplane to replace the 737, they decided to save money, do a cheaper version, put new engines on an old plane. they had to put in this software to make it stable, except that made the plane do things like dive at a time when pilots might not expect it. so you wind up with these two massive fatal crashes in 2018 and 2019. so you're trying to save money. trying to maximize profit and in doing so you ruin your reputation and you get a reputation as being a death trap. >> and you have mr. barnet come forward whch when he tries to say wave his arms, we're going to kill people in these plans. they attack him to the point -- he ends up dead. but they attack his character rather than say he's helping us because he's trying to make our planes safer. >> yeah. i mean, he is just one of a string of people who have come forward and said things are not going as they should. we are not living up to the culture of safety and

meticulousness that boeing had been famous for so many decades. this was a beloved and trusted company. >> it's a company that the united states trusted to put its military troops in during world war i and world war ii. so it was trusted -- that trusted. when did the shift take place? is it the stonecipher, merger with mcdonald douglas, was it that mcdonald douglas has this maximize shareholder ethic and they grafted that on to boeing. >> that has become a conventional wisdom. there's a whole genre's of documentaries. it's famous for having gone down the tubes in the wake of 1997 merger with mcdonald douglas. >> donald trump, he -- his version of the federal aviation administration was increasingly isolated as other countries banned the 737 max. there are countries that said you can't fly that here.

can boeing come back from where it is now without heavy government regulation? >> that is the million dollar question. you know, in february, the faa said to boeing, look, you have 90 days to get your house in order. come one a safety plan to start making these planes properly again. we don't know what they're going to come up with yet. we know the s.e.c. is investigating boeing as well. joy, at the end of the day, the shareholders own this company. they put the board in place. the board hires the ceo. they all seem to subscribe to this idea that the most important thing is to keep your share price up. >> keep the share price up. not keeping people alive in the plane. >> the question is really have they learned their lesson? have they seen their brand value destroyed? and will they change course because of it? or will they hire another person who is just like the other three or four guys they hired? >> are airlines making the decision to cut ties? because you see airbus is obviously a competing product. are we starting to see airlines

make the decision we don't want boeing planes in our fleet. >> there's the rub. they can't. there's a shortage of aircraft in the world. everybody wants to travel by air. they need airplanes to do that. you know, united and southwest are having to cut their schedules because they don't have enough planes to put people on. and meanwhile, the faa is putting a cap on how many planes boeing can build. >> sure. >> and so -- >> thank god. >> if you have a position to buy a plane, you're going to hang on to that for dear life. >> right. >> there's no pressure from the market to say we're not going to buy your planes. >> as somebody who specializes in covering this industry, do you think it's safe to fly on a boeing plane. >> i do. that might seem like a weird thing to say. there are so many layers of safety built into this industry that even if there are mistakes, failures and so forth, at the end of the day -- i did the piece for the new york magazine, i talked to people who worked for boeing.

people came forward spontaneously, look, we make a really good plane. i talked to people at airports who maintain them, these are great airplanes. >> sit safer to fly in an airbus? >> not statistically. there's no evidence for that. but, i wrote in one of my articles that air travel is the safest form of transportation. and someone wrote in to correct me, the shinkansen railway in japan is safer. nobody ever gotten injured on a shinkansen. >> we will never have railroads as good as japan and india. thank you very much, jeff wise. six months into the war in gaza with no end insighted. a jewish war reporter is calling out israel saying i know war crimes when i see them. we'll talk to that reporter next.

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what i will tell you is i think what he is doing is a mistake. i don't agree with his approach. so what i'm calling for is for the israelis to just call for a cease fire, allow for the next six, eight weeks, total access to all food and medicine going into the country. >> president biden is not the only world leader sharpening his criticism of israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu's handling of the war against hamas.

and calling for an immediate cease fire. the leader of jordan, france, and egypt released a joint statement calling for an end to the humanitarian suffering the war in gaza is causing. protests continue inside israel against netanyahu as the devastating humanitarian situation in gaza further deteriorates with worsening famine conditions. our next guest has spent his career reporting from war zones and in a dramatic and personal op ed in the washington post, peter moss calls what is happening in gaza a war crime. he writes when israel bombs and shoots civilians, blocks food aid, attacks hospitals and cuts off water supplies, i remember the same outrages in bosnia. i thought of the sarajevans killed waiting in line for bread and they insisted they were slaughtered by their own side. it is evident that war crimes were committed by hamas. that does not give israel a

path to respond as it pleases. an eye for an eye or a hundred eyes for one eye is not a thing in international law. and peter joins me now. the author of love thy neighbor. a story of war. it was such a moving piece. and it was very personal. tell us about your grandfather. your great grandfather. >> my great grandfather was felix warburg. he at the time, this was in the 1920s , 1930s , he was one of the wealthiest jewish philanthropist around and gave a tremendous amount of money to help resettle jews from europe, russia, and other countries into what was then called palestine. and my great great grandfather, the largest single jewish philanthropist resettling jews out of europe and russia into whatever countries would take them.

america, but also importantly, palestine. >> so, your family, i guess what you would call nonzionist supporters of israeli resettlement to the region? >> exactly. they were non-zionists which is an interesting twist in the history of zionist and non- zionists. they paid for the resettlement of jews but they didn't want a jewish state. if there were a jewish state, it would call into question the loyalty of jews in america. anti-semites would say you have two loyalties. you are not truly an american. >> which trump does. >> this does not go away. second, they feared violence between jews and arabs and this has happened. >> you have covered wars including in bosnia. and so, you have something to compare it to. it is very controversial among a lot of people to call what is

happening there genocide. why do you say it is? >> i was very specific about that. i said that there is like a lot of evidence indicating this is genocide and it should be investigated by war crimes prosecutors for possible genocide charges. and indeed, the international court of justice is looking into that, now, there are other venues, international criminal court that could also do the same. and the reason that i said that is because when i covered the war in bosnia, i also covered military activity in iraq and afghanistan. where i saw a lot of violence. but in bosnia in particular, i saw people shot by snipers. i saw civilian homes get bombed by the serbs. aid shipments halted. water, electricity cut off. the main hospital. it would get bombed. i knew people there killed. i wrote about it at the time. and all of these things i saw in bosnia when i was reporting there in the 1990s which was a

long time ago. very similar to what i have been seeing, what we all have been seeing in gaza. and, in the case of bosnia, there were war crime trials and a number of people are in prison now on atrocities, convictions on genocide. he died awaiting trial, but the bosnia serb military and political leaders are on jail the rest of their lives. i saw genocide happening in front of my eyes. now what i'm seeing happening in the way of my eyes and the way you are because foreign reporters are not allowed in by israel. is disturbingly evocative. all of these kinds of incidents i saw before and we have seen in other military situations and other genocides we have seen there. is it genocide? it is complicated. >> it is a legal question. >> it is very difficult. we can talk about it forever, but our opinions don't count. what counts is what war crime judges might decide. this is what i think need to

happen. >> the things we have heard, you write about the grandmother who is holding her six-year-old grandson's hand and is shot by a sniper. we have seen on social media, israeli soldiers up loading images of themselves looting, taking things from palestinian homes, we have seen mosques blown up. schools blown up. the deliberate destruction of hospitals. and the most egregious, the most shocking thing people are saying now is the mass starvation. that is the kind of thing you are saying deserves an investigation. >> yeah. and the number of children in particular who have been killed. more than 13,000 children. this is a number that is not disputed by anybody of any reputation. more than 13,000 children killed in six months in gaza by israeli bombs or israeli bullets, et cetera. and, when i was covering the war in bosnia, this was a four- yearlong war. there were 7,000 children

killed in four years. this is six months. it is shocking. it is hashed to kill that many people, that many children without making mistakes that are not random. >> do you think that because he is the person that is prolonging this and doesn't seem to want to stop it, could benjamin netanyahu wind up in a position like mr. melosovich and charged? in theory, is that something you can even, it boggles the mind to think about it, is it something you could see happening? >> it boggles the mind to think about it but if you asked me in 1992, could i have envisioned those people extradited to a war crimes tribunal by his own people, same for the others, i would have said i don't know what you're smoking and it is kind of unimaginable now. what is less unimaginable is the possibility of actual war crime charges being filed against him, and idf generals

and others. it is always possible. there are war crimes trials happening today, happening with respect to many conflicts. so it is just a question in some respects of the will. you know. would the united states which obviously is the biggest supporter of israel support these kinds of war crime trials because the u.s. has a lot of influence over these things. so, there's a lot of steps that would have to happen for that to take place. but, the only thing when i have covered all these conflicts is that the results were really surprises. >> surprises in a horrible way right now. peter, thank you so much for being here, thank you for writing that piece. that is tonight's reidout. all in with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on all in. >> for 54 years they were trying to get roe v. wade terminated and i did it. >> republicans warm up the bus for reproductive rights. >> if you have to travel to another state to get an abortion, it's not the worse