johnson -- or jeffries could end up with the most votes if republicans vote present, which you've seen them do a few times. it's a simple majority of the people voting. that's not going to happen, even if jeffries somehow ends up with the votes, they could vote to remove him with the majority they have. johnson doesn't have a lot of great arguments right now. he knows he's dealing with someone who is irrational, and i don't think that's going to dissuade her from going after him. >> covering a lot of ground, brendan buck, thank you. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. get this. today, former president trump held a fundraiser in atlanta. on the way to the event, he stopped at a local chick-fil-a. look at this. >> can i have 30 milk shakes? also some chicken. >> after trump placed the order, the cashier said, we're going to need to see the money first. we heard some things.

we heard some things. we heard some things. [ applause ] good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, april 11th. speaking of the former president, his legal team lost yet another desperate delay attempt in the hush money criminal case, making them 0 for 3 in last-minute attempts to push back the looming trial. it starts on monday. we'll look at what legal options they have left. also ahead, speaker mike johnson is headed down to mar-a-lago tomorrow to meet with trump. the trip comes as the former president's allies in the house are threatening johnson's speakership. what are they planning together? >> so good. >> a deal in the making. along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host of "way too early," bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire. member of "the new york times" editorial board, mara gay is

with us. and donny deutsch of "on brand with donny deutsch" is with us, top of the show this morning. can we dive into the polling? >> so much to cover today. >> yeah, the new polling -- >> good, yeah. >> general election polling shows a nine-point swing toward president joe biden in the latest national survey from reuters and ipsos. biden leads trump by four points, 41% to 37%, within the poll's margin of error. it marks a shift from january when trump led biden, 43% to 38%. 64% of registered voters also say the charges trump faces in his upcoming hush money trial are either very or somewhat serious. also, if he is convicted of a felony by election day, 24% of republicans and 13% of current trump voters say they would not cast their ballots for the presumptive gop nominee.

that could be a little bit why they keep trying to delay this. >> mm-hmm. >> every day, they come up with a new attempt that is rejected. if the trial starts monday, that's jury selection. there will be more -- i predict there will be more attempts to delay through jury selection. >> no such luck. willie, we talk about trend lines. the trend lines are all breaking joe biden's way. i mean, if you look at the top of drudge, if you're trump, you'd probably jump off the brooklyn bridge. he's, like, maga meltdown, talking about the polls breaking in joe biden's way. but they are. i mean, trend lines are pretty strong for biden coming out of the -- again, still coming out of the state of the union. >> if you look back at the first -- the overall number, you see joe biden, since january, within the margin of error, kind of at the same spot, if we can look at the first one. there it is. what you also see on the bottom, the erosion for donald trump.

donny, that's part of what the biden campaign is counting on, which is, you see a little more of joe biden, you look at the data, look at the numbers, inflation number wasn't great yesterday. we'll get to that. really, the more donald trump is out there, the more he is railing, the more he is in a courtroom, the more -- you saw it in this number with the hush money trial, also an election interference trial. the more the public sees of donald trump, the biden campaign hopes, the less it wants to see him back in the white house. >> yeah. something in the poll which is something i want to reiterate for people out there who say to me, "you know, the hush money thing, it's good for donald trump. it makes him look like the victim." no, seeing him in a courtroom every day, seeing every day -- >> and hearing. >> -- in the news and hearing is not helping him. i could never understand that logic, how somebody who is under indictment for felony charges, about to face trial, somehow, that's good for them. it's not. the numbers show that. if you look -- by the way, this trial, he will be convicted. i don't think there is any question about it. if you listen to that, it spins

off about a quarter of the republicans. that's a big number. >> mara, it is, again, a constant drum beat, not just of what donald trump is saying, but, for the first time, what the biden campaign is saying about trump. if you still go down x or go down threads, i mean, i think the biden campaign is putting out donald trump's own words, like, every 15 minutes. it's brutal. every single one of those messages, i mean, any swing voter would look at and cringe. >> americans have a tendency to romanticize the recent past. i think now that they're seeing more of donald trump, and, in this case, for the biden campaign, they're remembering just how awful that presidency was. there's also just a slice of americans who don't follow politics daily the way that we obsessively do. >> right. >> now, it is dawning on them, oh, he's not going away.

he's going to be -- he is the presumptive republican nominee. now, they're really looking at their two choices. they're not looking at, you know, joe biden and maybe somebody else. they're thinking, oh, it's going to be joe biden or this guy again? >> yeah. >> i don't think so. then the other element of this case in manhattan is really this is, let's remember, about hush money payments to cover up, you know, allegedly this affair he had with stormy daniels. >> sounds quaint at this point. >> sounds quaint. it sounds quaint, but, again, i just think he's in court because he was covering up bad behavior about the way he treats women, at a time when american women across the country, our rights are under assault, really, on abortion. >> yeah. >> i think that those things are starting to converge. people are starting to look at donald trump and say, i don't trust him. >> yeah. >> he's a crook. >> yeah. you know, jonathan, there may be some people out there that are a little bit surprised by the

numbers, the trend lines that are breaking in joe biden's direction. the biden campaign, the biden white house would be last on that list. even a couple months ago, when everybody was freaking out, democrats wanted to jump off of buildings, they were like, eh, he's not on the ballot. when people realize we're running against him, we'll be fine. >> dare we call it joe-mentum. we shouldn't. >> please don't. >> that's what they are calling it. >> inflation 3.5%. not yet. >> that's the problem. i was getting to that in a second. right now, this is what the biden campaign forecasted. they knew that the president was going to take hits during the primaries. anger about gaza, young voters, the ballots in michigan and wisconsin. they have to deal with that. as you said a moment ago, the more americans saw trump, they'll be turned off by him. that's been their theory of the case all along. as the biden campaign steadily rolls out with huge fundraising advantages, opening offices in

battleground states across the country, promoting infrastructure and other bills, though some in the president's inner circle think they're doing too much of that. we noted ron klain yesterday. being uncertain where the criminal cases will lead. >> what about the ron klain thing? it's a bridge? >> he said the president is too focused on infrastructure, saying it about bridges, and needs to be focused on prices and cost. inflation numbers suggest maybe he has a point, but the pushback was, infrastructure, a, is something americans need, and it shows we can get something done in a bipartisan way. we need to sell the record of accomplishments, not just saying, hey, we're not donald trump. but they're not donald trump. to mara's point, the abortion headlines of the last week or so, as well, strengthens the president's case. >> brutal. >> we're seeing trump flail. we saw it yesterday as he tried to explain what he means.

speaking of, former president trump is trying to change his position yet again on abortion health care. trump spoke with reporters following his arrival in atlanta yesterday, saying he would not sign a federal abortion ban, reversing a promise he made as a candidate back in 2016. days after saying abortion policy should be left to the states, he then criticized the state of arizona's supreme court, saying it went too far in restricting abortion access. >> mr. president, did arizona go too far? >> yeah, they did and it'll be straightened out. as you know, the states rights and it'll be straightened out. i'm sure the governor and everybody else will bring it back into reason and it'll be taken care of. florida is probably maybe going to change, also. see, it's all the will of the people. this is what i've been saying. it is a perfect system. so florida is probably going to change. arizona is going to definitely change. everybody wants that to happen.

and you're getting the will of the people. it's been pretty amazing when you think. >> you know, it is amazing that he can sit there and say 12 things in 30 seconds that all conflict with each other. >> we'll see what happens. >> including the lie that arizona's legislature would fix it quickly. no, they didn't. republicans, his party, they adjourned quickly because they were freaked out that they actually may stop a 160-year-old abortion ban from being the law of arizona. i mean, this is -- it just keeps getting worse. this nonsense of his, saying, oh, we're going to leave it to the states, but, you know, then he comes out and says no national abortion ban. he's just offended about 45% of his base. he loses, like, coming and going. he didn't realize, republicans had it best when they cynically sat back and said, oh, we support a national abortion ban and did nothing about it. now, they realize just, you

know -- >> how much they own. >> -- how bad it is. the dog caught the car, and then somebody forced the dog to get in the front seat of the car and drive the car and they're driving it over the cliff. >> there was a cat. >> yeah. >> might be it. >> yeah, this is donald the dog and, yeah, the dog is driving it over the cliff. >> you know, in donald trump's attempt over the last three, four days to please everyone, he has pleased exactly no one. there's no position he can take that's going to please the amount of people he needs to win the election. that was just flailing yesterday. he flailed the day before. the argument from him is, and he rarely stays on a message, but someone told him to say states' rights. okay, arizona is taking control of the abortion issue. now, we have a 160-year-old law, enforceable on the books, and he's going, well, that one is bad. not in that state. >> right, okay. >> there's no safe place for him

to land. this is a terrible issue for them. >> he says states' rights monday, and states go, okay, hold my beer. wednesday, he goes, oh, no, not states' rights. >> in arizona, a day after arizona's supreme court ruled, a 160-year-old near tote ail total abortion ban is enforcement, efforts to repeal the law were blocked. the legislature, controlled by conservatives, said they'll be, quote, closely reviewing the high court's ruling and listening to constituents to determine how to proceed. however, they scuttled an effort to repeal the law by calling for a recess and adjourning until next week, prompting angry jeers from democrats. >> i move we recess immediately. >> you heard a secondary motion. i heard a session. >> second. >> all in favor, vote aye. >> aye. >> all opposed, vote no. ayes have it.

>> shame on you! shame on you! shame on you! hold the vote! hold the vote! >> they're just not going to win. >> no. >> being behind donald trump, being responsible for a total abortion ban. near total abortion ban with no -- i think no exceptions for rape or incest. >> just life of the mother. >> that went into law before arizona was a state and before abraham lincoln -- >> before women had a right to vote. >> -- was re-elected. think about that, before abraham lincoln was re-elected, this total abortion ban came into effect. >> there were 6,500 people living in arizona when this happened. think about this ban now. think about arizona women, all women now don't have access to health care that could save their lives. anyone who goes to visit arizona, don't go there.

you might have an emergency. if you need an emergency dnc, you need some sort of emergency treatment, under this law, you won't get it. you are not going to be saved. why would you take a vacation in arizona? why would you live in arizona? >> on fox, they were saying, you know, getting a bus ticket is not that bad. >> did they actually say that? >> yeah. they said, yeah, it's not a big deal. buy a bus ticket and go to another state. >> that's embarrassing for them. i mean, it looks like you're going to have to drive four hours in some places in that state to be able to get health care you need. we're talking, you know -- abortion is health care, and this is going to involve people, as well, who actually want pregnancies and have medical emergencies. this is going to involve women who are in life or death situations, and now we have hospitals and health care facilities in arizona who don't

even know what they are supposed to do. so you have doctors hesitating for saving women's lives. >> going to the board, going to lawyers. >> right, wondering if they'll be prosecuted. >> these procedures are not just women who are pregnant. >> exactly. >> women are denied the health care they're used to, that saves and improves their lives, keeps them out of pain, perhaps gets them out of a situation where they're bleeding out. they will not get that in arizona. >> right. >> thanks to donald trump. by the way. >> also, it puts them in a position where they may not be able to have babies in the future. i mean, unfortunately, we're seeing all too often, and joe biden's campaign underlined this situation of the lady who may never be able to have a baby again. >> really powerful. go ahead. >> pregnancy is actually a very dangerous condition. >> yes. scary enough. >> it is scary enough as it is. the idea that you would essentially threaten prosecution of doctors, you know, who are

trying to actually provide care to human beings in that condition is abominable. i cannot imagine that this is going to go over well with arizona voters. and not just women. >> men. >> men, too. >> the human aspect of this is obviously most important, but there is a huge political one, too. i've talked to people in the trump campaign. it's a panic these last few days about what arizona did. trump gives his position on monday about abortion. >> position. >> the very next day, this happens in arizona, on the heels of what happened in florida, his home state. this changes the electoral calculus come november. florida, i think most democrats concede, likely out of reach, but republican wills have to spend money there. arizona, biden won it in 2020, the everyone, the consensus in wilmington knew it'd be harder. now, it is squarely in play again with abortion rights being on the ballot. if that is the case, that opens up their path to 70 when, before, it looked like it was maybe only going to be able to

go through pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan. you add arizona, they get lots of options. >> donny, you're an ad guy. how hard would it be to put an ad together, skewering donald trump? >> the one that's out there is compelling. top of the show, we talked about the polls. that was pre-arizona. abortion is the issue. karl lloyd famously said, "it's the economy stupid." now, this is abortion. it's the women. >> and men who love them. >> they're going to be talking to their fathers, husbands, sons, going, are you kidding me? thank god for women. arizona is going to be a big, big deal. >> even in his scramble yesterday, donald trump scrambled to get to some position on abortion, he went on to say that taking away roe versus wade, for which he takes full credit, it was an incredible thing. an incredible achievement. quote, we did that. >> yes. >> just put that on tape.

>> you did. >> he said, give it back to the states, but what arizona did is bad. reporter says, florida? that's bad, too. they should change that. does he have to go state by state? he'll get to half the country before he stops counting and saying, that's all bad, but still give it back to the states. point being, there is nowhere for him to hide on this. >> this is becoming a trend. the undecided voters we looked at yesterday in the focus groups, a lot of the undecided are people who had voted for trump in the past, saying, we don't know where he stands on anything. he keeps changing. you can't believe him, you know? at least biden, i may not like him, but i can believe what he says. >> that was, by the way, a crazy focus group. >> well, it nailed the issue. >> everybody is talking about economics. biden is horrible. horrible, horrible. you're thinking, this election is over. they go, what about donald trump? by the end of it, they were talking over each other.

like, they couldn't talk quickly enough about why they were offended by donald trump. but on abortion, and i think these focus groups are always fascinating. we always learn things in focus groups like we did with heilemann and halperin, with the lady who said, "he's one of us." in 2020, elise is president trumper, conspiracy trumper saying, "i'm not talking about abortion. that's not my business." yesterday, the libertarian with, you know, the headphones on. total libertarian. he said, "wait a second. the government can't do anything right," his view. "government can't do anything right, and we're turning our bodies over to them?" he was like, "this is the worst thing in the world." so you get to understand, like, even for some people that may not be married, may not have daughters, may not have a

personal, intimate connection, they're sitting there going, wait, if they can do that to women, they can do that to me. this is really frightening. when the federal government comes in and takes control of your body, takes control of your health care, suddenly, you look at what that guy, what that libertarian is saying, and you start to understand why this cuts across all demographics. >> that's a consistent and rational argument. i don't know if everyone is going to make that, but if you believe that the federal government should be burned down, as steve bannon and others in the trump world said, get rid of the departments of this, education, the irs, everything else, you can't have a carveout for, well, actually, we should have doughy, old, white men telling women what to do with their bodies, too, from the united states senate. doesn't work that way. he makes a good point. >> more to a point, in jackson, mississippi, guys that have come off of delta and go to the

mississippi, and they're deciding to tell, you know, 25-year-old women who have two children, who are having a complicated pregnancy, "i know best what you should do with your body." i mean, if that doesn't freak the hell out of everybody, then i don't know what does. >> well, i thought what was interesting, also, those were swing states, undecided voters, people who voted for trump. what was really fascinating to me is that trump's division had broken through. they may not watch this show. they may watch -- >> everybody watches this show. >> -- newsmax or fox. if they voted for trump, they probably get their news somewhere else maybe. still, division had broken through. one voter saying, january 6th, i just -- you know, if that could happen, what else could happen? he's so divisive, so mean. that had broken through. as much as the denial and the avoidance might be happening on networks that get their news.

that's number one. i think when people, as you say, tune into the election and start looking at their options, they're going to see this and be like, whoa, it's even gotten worse rather than better. then add this abortion situation. they're going to be seeing and hearing, enduring the ramifications of what donald trump has done to women's health care across america. because, in every state, but in many states with these bans, women are going to be talking to doctors about the options they don't have anymore. >> yeah. >> because of donald trump. >> i think the biggest challenge, donny, is, whether you talk about abortion, the radicalism of that and the divide, or what mika is stalking about in focus groups, i think his great challenge is just this sense of exhaustion. >> yeah. >> i was hearing from trumpers in 2020, saying, "i guess i'll vote for him. i don't know. i'm so exhausted by this guy.

every day, it's a different fight." these were trumpers that were saying it. that was before january 6th. that was before he completely, completely went way out there. he was already pretty far out there. >> look, we haven't seen a campaign yet. if you really think about the last six, eight months, we haven't seen much of him. at mar-a-lago, holding court down there. i want to go back to january 6th, bringing that together with abortion. safety is a big word. if you say to people, do you feel safe? do you feel safe? joe biden, you know, you can say everything you want about joe biden. he's hold, he's this, not perfect. he comes on and, there is a primal, like, i think i feel safe with this guy. >> he cares about people. >> whether it's a women and you're worried about your body, worried about revolts on the streets, our primal, number one thing is to feel safe. i think trump makes people feel

unsafe, as evidenced by, whether it is abortion or january 6th or other areas. >> with biden, there can be no quick, sudden moves. >> he's not inciting a riot, okay? >> he's not going to sneak up on you. >> asking people to come armed and head to the capitol. still ahead on "morning joe," the latest from israel amid new fears that more hostages may be dead than previously believed. what hamas leaders are saying about the ongoing negotiations. plus, we'll get to president biden's state visit with japan's prime minister, as the administration looks to put a focus on countering china. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back.

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joining us now, president emeritus on the council of foreign relations, richard haass. he's author of the weekly newsletter, "home and away," available on substack. we'll get to this now. hamas reportedly does not have 40 living hostages who meet the criteria for an exchange under the latest cease-fire proposal. that's according to "the new york times," which cited a senior hamas official. negotiators proposed a six-week cease-fire during which hamas would release a group of 40 people, that includes women, the elderly and sick, and five female israeli soldiers. in exchange, israel would free hundreds of palestinian prisoners. it is not known if israel will now demand young men and male soldiers be released if, in fact, hamas cannot meet that criteria. "the times" reports an israel

official says hamas' claim has been relayed to mediators who are facilitating negotiations. however, this raises fears more hostages might be dead than previously believed. as of now, israel believes more than 100 are still being held captive in gaza and at least 30 hostages have died. >> i'm skeptical of the 100 number. i don't think they believe that. richard, judging from what they've been saying for some time, off the record, there has been a fear that hamas, the terror group, has killed, you know, so many of these hostages. we said it, unfortunately, when they went in. hamas, again, just savages, terrorists, were raping these women in broad daylight, probably raping them underground. they were never going to release them. they're terrorists. they could not let those women

get in front of a bank of microphones and speak to the war crimes that were committed against them repeatedly. i don't mean to -- i know this sounds awfully harsh, but this is what u.s. officials have been fearing for four months now. >> it's interesting, joe. a lot of us thought that the reason, you know, you couldn't get a hostage deal is hamas was holding on to the hostages for leverage. that was their only way to push. >> they killed them. >> that's the other possibility, there are no longer hostages to give back. israelis were thinking the numbers of those still living was less than 75. it might be less than that now. the idea of these mini hostage deals, which is what bill burns and others have been trying to negotiate with qatar, it seems to me, are less and less likely. i think it, again, the israelis have to decide now whether to put whatever remaining hostages are at the center of whatever they do, or does bibi netanyahu

go into rafah? i think that conversation is where the israelis are. >> you talk privately to israeli officials. publicly, they want to keep hope alive, and they hope they can find the hostages, but there's some of what joe is saying, which is, they fear many of those were either killed that day or have been killed in the six months since then. so much as we talk about this negotiation, so much of the burden has been placed on israel. yes, they have to do better with the way they're prosecuting the war. we've said that. yes, they have to allow more aid into gaza. we've said that ad nauseam here. they have someone across the table from them who carried out one of the worst attacks in human history on october 7th, and is holding and -- they could release the hostages and make this go away, you know? yes, there's plenty of criticism to be levied at israel for the way they've conducted the war, but let's not forget who they're dealing with here. >> yeah, and where this starts. >> yeah. >> they could have done this anytime over the past six months, right? >> exactly. >> you have to go back.

i want to bring people back to the hamas charter, which is, of course, all about destroying jews in the world. article 13 says there will never be a negotiated settlement. jihad is the only answer. we keep talking and are looking for a solution, looking for negotiation. we're looking for a cease-fire. it's not on the table for them. what we also take for granted is what i call the curve. if some way, god-willing, the hostages are alive and we have 40 and we give you hundreds of prisoners back. so the ones that did the slaughter, the ones that started this, the ones that want to destroy western civilization, destroy jews, israel has to negotiate with one hand tied behind their backs. going back to my original point, there is no negotiation. it's in their charter. they will not negotiate. they don't want a settlement. they want a jihad. jihad is the answer. these are their words. >> right. >> but that's not on the table. the idea of hamas ruled itself out forever as a party or a partner. that's not on the table. you're right, the real question then is, can israel, one day,

find a partner? that still requires them, as a savage as hamas has been and is, to build up the possibility for palestinians who are willing to act differently, to co-exist peacefully with a jewish state. >> this is a tough question. there's 2 million palestinians. i mean, 2 million in gaza. we know the tragedy that happens. my concern going forward is that so many are radicalized, by no fault of their own. it starts when they're children. they're taught in school the hatred. it's not like you can just lift off this top piece. that's what always worries me going forward. how radicalized is the entire population, no matter what you do? that's where i lose sleep. >> how much more radicalized have they become, the entire population? hamas is always radical. the question i have is, yes, there's no negotiating with hamas, but not just to repeat the same question over and over

again, but until it is answered, we need to repeat it. there's no negotiating with hamas unless you're bibi netanyahu. who negotiated with hamas for years. if you are a parent or a loved one of one of these dead hostages, you have to ask, why was bibi netanyahu giving cash to hamas through qatar three weeks before their loved one was kidnapped, raped, brutalized, and sent to the tunnels of gaza? why did bibi netanyahu turn a blind eye to the plans of october 7th for a year beforehand? why did he turn a blind eye to the fact he knew in 2018, along with donald trump, how hamas was getting their money? they did nothing, nothing. >> yeah. i mean, just to be clear, to

reiterate, it was hamas that perpetrated the horrific attacks on october 7th. >> right. >> they alone are responsible for that carnage. at the same time, it is also true, and it appears to be that we are learning even more about this, and the international community has learned much more in the past six months, that some of the policies that bibi netanyahu's government has been carrying out, you know, may have strengthened hamas, including ignoring those reports. we should be asking those questions, but i think moving forward, it is also a question of, to richard's point, of, well, who will the partner be? because you can't just wish away 2 million people in gaza. you know, there needs to be palestinian leadership. yes, fundamentally acts differently but is also allowed to sit at the negotiating table with the israeli state. that is -- we don't have that

yet. it's hard to see how you get there because, of course, you know, the campaign that israel has prosecuted over the past six months, how can that not have a radicalizing effect on children in gaza? we're a long way away, but we have to have hope. you have to look at the history of conflics around the world, be it in ireland or south africa or here. >> exactly. >> we have to have hope. you have to start somewhere. you can't have peace without justice. can't have justice without peace. i don't mean to be trite about it, but those are real concepts right now. we don't have either on the ground. there seems to be no justice for these hostages, no justice for these palestinian children. it is tragic, not just for that region, but that the world has had to watch this unfold. we have to start somewhere. >> right now, people are saying a two-state solution is not possible. that's the same thing you heard, we heard in northern ireland. that's the same thing we heard in south africa. that's the same thing we've

heard time and time again. i'll say, go back and read dr. brzezinski's memoirs about the camp david accords. as you know very well, richard, dead in the water, was finished. at the last second, somehow, they figured out how to save it, how to move forward and make history. but this idea, this cynical idea that's been pushed around by the trump administration and other american diplomats, that we can have a middle east peace and carve out the palestinian question, it's insanity. it's always been insanity. i understand completely, and i'm sure you do, too, the israelis don't want to hear any american talk about a two-state solution right now. i completely get it. i would guess the queen would probably not want to hear about peace in ireland after lord

mountbatten got blown up. but she took martin mcginnis' hand. over the horizon, at some point, you know, there is a palestinian authority, a younger palestinian authority, a less corrupt palestinian authority, that the united states, jordan, emiratis, the saudis, all the middle east countries that want to go in and rebuild gaza, there is a deal to be done over the horizon, is there not? >> absolutely. to paraphrase churchill, a two-state solution is the worst possible outcome, except for all the others. >> right. >> that's where we are. two things. one is to go back to something you were saying. the israeli policy was cynicism on stilts. let's strengthen the hands of hamas, a truly unacceptable part. >> richard, i'm so glad you can explain this. this puts together what both of them were talking about. when donny said, well, the charter says we're going to

destroy israel, and, yet, bibi netanyahu knew that when he dealt with hamas. >> right. >> why did he do it? explain again. >> he strengthened the hands of the -- >> hamas. >> of hamas. because he wanted to weaken the potential role of the potentially acceptable partner, the palestinian authority. why? because he has built a coalition that is predicated on the notion there can't be a palestinian state, but we ought to keep the occupied territories for settlement. the whole idea -- >> the illegal settlements. by the way, that didn't just happen over the past six months. that's happened -- >> since '67. >> -- since '67. one illegal settlement after another, netanyahu has supersized it. >> that was the whole idea, to prevent the emergence of a palestinian partner able and willing to negotiate with israel. now, hamas has shown its true colors. the challenge for the future, for the arab governments, for the united states, for, i think, a future israeli government, is if you want to have

negotiations, you have to enter a long phrase of pre-negotiations. it is what we did in northern ireland. we worked with the political side of the provisional ira for years and said, here's what it is going to take from you. you have to give up violence, give up your arms, but if you do this, here's the potential award. that's the process the united states, arab governments led by the saudis, have to have in the middle east. it'll take years, if not decades. it is a long shot, but, quite honestly, it is the only shot that exists. this is, by the way, not just a favor for the palestinians, but for the true friends of israel. you want israel to be a prosperous, jewish and democratic state that enjoys the support of americans and others around the world, israel needs to do this for itself. it is a palestinian state at the end of the day is as much a favor for israel as it is for the palestinians. >> does that faction exist in gaza right now? is there a silent faction that

does not like hamas, that has some influence that could be spoken to behind the scenes. >> it is silent, intimidated. hamas gained in the short run, but hamas was a total failure before october 7th. total inability to rule. what we're going to do, willie, yeah, it'll take decades, at least years, possibly a decade or longer. also in the west bank, we have to build a new generation of palestinian leadership that's competent, that's not corrupt, that's basically able to govern. if you want to be a state, you have to show you have the capacity and the responsibility to act like one. that's going to take a long time. october 7th, let's be honest, has made it harder. it's made it harder because it's radicalized palestinians and israelis. no illusions here. but you have to start. the alternative to have an endless occupation of what i call the one-state non-solution is corrosive to the dna, the fap fabric of israel. it'll eat away at the u.s. and israeli relationship.

you have to start the process, as difficult as it'll be. >> we're running out of time, but, richard, talk a little about the visit by the japanese prime minister last night. this is interesting. japan is, let's be blunt, the single most important ally of the united states. it is democratic, one of the world's largest economies. one of the world's strongest militaries. it is the linchpin of pushing its back against china and the south china sea. that's why we're having today's meeting with the leadership of the philippines. it is the linchpin of pushing back against china on taiwan. this is one of the great success stories of the last 75 years. we have gone from a japan that was one of the two countries that brought about world war ii. now, america's closest ally in the world. it's truly the center of what we're trying to do, to manage the rise of china. what yesterday was, today, the speech to the joint session of congress, this is just one of the -- you know, we talk about foreign policy and, obviously, so much is negative. this is one of the great, positive stories of the last

three-quarters of a century. >> picture of normalcy, which we'll take. before we let you go, richard, you are our golf correspondent. >> you can't see my socks but i have the golf socks on today. >> you do. he actually does. >> there we go. >> fun socks on today. masters, a little rain this morning, wind for the first round of the masters. going to push back the schedule a little. >> good things are worth waiting for. >> looks beautiful the rest of the weekend. are you hanging in there with rory as your pick? >> my emotional pick is rory. my golf pick is scottie scheffler. scottie scheffler is playing a level of golf we have not seen in the world. >> that's jon rahm we're looking at there. >> last year's winner. >> liv. there's tension between liv and pga, joe. >> willie and i have a history with the masters. '87, you know the story. >> amen corner, let's hear it. >> '87, we flipped a coin. i was like, willie, do you take it or do i take it? i won. i got to play that day.

willie was caddie. we won. i never saw it coming. i got the green jacket. i'm going to wear it on monday. >> you know what's so great about our 15-year-old 1987 masters joke, we weren't thinking through it. that's the year, famously, larry mise won with the chip-in on the last playoff hole. we've snatched his glory and apologize. larry mise, a native of augusta, georgia, won the 1987 masters. >> everybody remembers '86. >> what's cute, you think the joke is 15 years old, we're getting to 17. like next month. >> 17? >> nicklaus' grandson did a hole in one on the par 3 yesterday. >> did he? >> it was great. >> 17 years you've been doing this, wow. >> why are we doing this? >> i won it in '88. >> the green jacket is good for you. >> it works. >> richard haass, thank you so much for coming on this morning.

great to have you. >> i don't like to talk about it much, though. >> humble jacket wearer. >> 17 years. coming up, new data shows inflation running hotter than -- >> sandy lyle, is he claiming he won in '88? >> you can't believe everything on the internet. >> inflation is hotter than expected. steve rattner will join us to break down the latest numbers and how they might impact the feds' timeline for cutting interest rates. "morning joe" will be right back.

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the new data is raising serious doubts the fed will be able to cut interest rates anytime soon. joining us now is former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. >> steve rattner, are rates going to have to go up? >> what will happen? >> this economy is so hot. >> look, the economy is hot. inflation has come down enormously, obviously. we're in the 3% range. >> but -- >> it's stuck at the moment and not getting better. larry summers said there was a 15% to 25% maybe rates would have to go up. i think that's unlikely. i think what we're looking at, instead, is delaying rates coming down. people thought rates might start to come down as soon as this june. i think that's clearly off the table. might be looking at the fall. we might be looking at november. >> what happens if they raise them right now? what's the -- >> well, if they raise them right now -- >> inflation goes high center. >> if they raise rates now, it is bad for consumers, paying

higher interest rates. >> lower them. i'm sorry. >> okay. if they lower them, you run the risk you accelerate inflation more, that you make the hot economy even hotter. >> the economy is already hot. >> economy is hot. >> we've been talking now for a year and a half about the resilience of this economy. i've asked you this a dozen times. what continues to drive this economy? >> the economy is incredibly hot. i think it's driven by a few things. one of them has been a number of the government programs we've put in place, the ira bill, the climate change bill, build back better infrastructure bill, things like that, the chips act even, have created a lot of demand. when you look at what's going on out there, these -- for example, wind and solar power facilities are being built. chips factories are being built. all that is stimulating the economy. the economy has clearly outperformed what anyone thought. the second thing, and i don't want to get technical, but there

is a theory the economy doesn't respond as strongly as it used to to higher interest rates. for whatever set of reasons, raising rates, which the fed did for a while, doesn't seem to be slowing the economy as much as people would expect. yeah, the economy is consistently outperforming, and that shows up in the inflation data. it shows up in the possibility, likelihood, that rate cuts will be delayed. >> steve, we're looking through some of the specifics of the inflation report, trying to make sense of why things are up so much. car insurance is way up, over 20% year-over-year. elder care, taking care of people in your home, 15%. very specific things at the grocery store, not everything, but some things. how does the regular person like us who goes shopping, how do you make sense of the volatility and fluctuations of those. >> month to month, you'll see all kinds of funny things happening. if you look at the inflation report broadly, what happened, the prices of services, insurance, things like that, were pretty strong. services tend to be harder to get under control because their

-- they're labor intensive. goods, actually, were moderate. in fact, what didn't get as much attention, perhaps as it might have, is a lot of this stuff people buy every day, gasoline, up 1.2%. groceries for food at home up, i think, 1.3%. a lot of the everyday items are actually under reasonable control. it's a lot of the stuff around the edges. the other important point, willie, notwithstanding this, wages went up faster than inflation last month. people's purchasing power is still going up. i know nobody likes inflation, and i know it's got political implications, and people don't fully appreciate that since the beginning of the biden administration, as well as in this current stagnation of inflation reduction, if you want to call it that, real wages, purchasing power, is still going up for the average american. >> on those political implications, this news obviously not well received in the west wing yesterday. president biden in a news

conference, he still predicted he thinks there will be a rate cut this year. not clear what he is basing that off of. feel free to weigh in. there is another inflation report coming today. tell us what we can glean from that. >> yes, there is a second inflation report called the pce, personal consumption expenditures. that's the measure the fed likes better. i'm not getting into the technicalities of how to calculate it. obviously, most of us look at the cpi. we'll see the pce a little later today. maybe it'll be slightly better news. overall, the picture is clear. you have a rapid deceleration of inflation, then we kind of got stuck. it doesn't seem to want to get -- it's like a runner running a marathon, the last mile is the toughest. we haven't been able to finish the marathon yet. >> do you have any sense, steve, for what it is that drives consumer sentiment and frustration? is it the services, paying more for services, or when you come home from, you know, the pharmacy and you realize you've paid, i don't know, $12 for paper towels?

what is it that is driving people batty and a little irrational about their views on the economy right now? >> a lot of what is driving people batty is two-thirds of the people who will vote in this election did not vote the last time inflation was over 4%. you have a majority of the electorate who haven't seen inflation. they're shocked by it, don't understand it. they don't fully appreciate their wages are also going up. some of them actually think prices should come down. you know, if inflation means prices go up, prices go down. those of us of a certain age knows that's not how it works. prices go up and hopefully stop. they don't go down often. it is a shock to the american system, and i get it. especially when it wa things like gasoline, where you see a poster telling you how much gasoline is going to be, that's tough for the american public to understand. it's been, obviously, one of the biggest political issues the white house is facing, inflation. >> no question.

"morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner, as always, thank you very much. still ahead on -- >> we need to get him on the southwest wall. >> i miss the charts. >> you like this, too. >> he's great here. >> i like it. it's good. >> he's a hall of famer over there. >> hall of famer. >> today's charts were going to be about baseball. >> tomorrow? >> tomorrow, let's do them. >> okay. >> thank you, steve. >> my pleasure. i mean, it's good, but i like the charts. democratic senator mark kelly of arizona will be a guest. republicans in his state blocked an attempt to repeal the civil war ea abortion ban that was ruled enforcement earlier this week. also ahead, liz cheney reportedly got passed over for the ford presidential foundation's top award. famed photographer david hugh kennerly quit the group over that. he'll join us in his first television interview since he

resigned to explain why he's blasting the group for what he sees as their cowardice and fear of trump. >> when gerald ford's foundation is afraid of donald trump -- >> it's not good. >> -- time for the rest of us to duck. >> we'll be right back. at bombas, we're obsessed with comfort. softness. quality. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order.

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>> he sure did. >> women are now being punished across america. >> thank you, chris, who joins us now, for getting that answer. along with professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. and special correspondent at "vanity fair" is host of the

"fast politics" podcast, molly jong-fast. she's an msnbc political analyst. chris, the punishment is severe, what we found. in many states now, we have seen women being put in situations where they face potential death, where they're being told to bleed out or wait until they're bleeding out, a lot of pain. the potential and, in many cases, it's already happened, sterilization because they are forced to bring babies that are have major abnormalities that will die to full term. trauma for the women. trauma for the women's family. trauma for the other children in the family. you know what? extra punishment from donald trump to other women who aren't even pregnant but might need an abortion-like procedure, a dnc or something to help, and they won't be able to get that so they get punished, too. donald trump has done some great

work in following through on his promise. >> what about 10-year-old girls who are raped by illegal immigrants who have to flee the state? 13-year-old girls forced to have babies because their mothers think, you know, that they have to do it. >> these aren't high poth hypotheses. >> it's not. >> it's shocking. >> he says there needs to be some form of punishment. i think when he got rid of roe v. wade by naming the three new justices, he opened up the door to this, to everything. to the 14 states you mentioned, mika, that outlaw abortion. the states that make it very difficult, the six-week ban. he changed the conversation. it's now about real pro-choice. it's getting rid of all the bans.

the fact he would not support any ban at all, even through his calculations for the last couple weeks. remember, he was thinking through this, do i do a 16 week, anything of this? the conversation has changed. anybody who supports a ban is on the other side. even 16 weeks, which would have been considered negotiable at least at one point, but not now. he's changed the whole conversation to what's going on in arizona. >> oh, my lord. >> and the 1860s bill. you know, i think his instinct of punishment, though, you know, and it does fit a lot of the things with him, the way he thinks about it, about women. you know, when he makes fun of the women he had relations with, apparently, with stormy and e. jean carroll. >> makes fun of women's looks. >> saying you're horse faced and comes up with phrases, nicknames. why doesn't he say i didn't do it or something? he goes on the offensive. by the way, he's never taken that back. >> no. >> he's never said, i made a

mistake, because he never says i make a mistake. he doesn't say, i make mistakes. i shouldn't have said that. i was thinking wrong. i had a bad attitude that day or something. he chose to say that. the pro-life movement, as we know, i grew up with it, basically, never supported any kind of punishment of the women. that was him. just him. >> this comes to us courtesy, molly, of judge william howell in 1864. a judge, again, appointed by abraham lincoln. i mean, you say it and you almost have to laugh, but it is reality now, been delivered to us. there is punishment, two to five years in prison for anybody who administers an abortion. >> what's so interesting about what's happening right now in the arizona statehouse is that democrats are still trying, even though this law will ultimately serve them in a swing state, they are still trying to get it overturned. republicans are still fighting with them. i think it is such an interesting moment because,

remember, there was a border bill, right? there was a border bill all cooked up, and donald trump said to mike johnson, no. do not pass this border bill. i need to run on the border. then, here, we have arizona, where this bill will actually ultimately serve the electoral ambitions of democrats, and they are, like, no, we don't want women to die. we don't want to live like this. so i do think that that's a really interesting dynamic. >> i -- all right. trump spoke with reporters in atlanta yesterday, and he's going all over the place with his position on abortion because he realizes the storm is coming. he said he would not sign a federal abortion ban, revering a promise he made as a candidate back in 2016. days after, saying abortion policy should be left to the states, he then criticized arizona's supreme court, saying it went too far and doing exactly what he said it should do, restricting abortion access. take a look. >> mr. president, did arizona

go too far? >> they did and it'll be straightened out. it's about states' rights. it'll be straightened out. i'm sure the governor and everybody will bring it back into reason, and it'll be taken care of quickly. florida is probably maybe going to change, also. see, it's all about the will of the people. this is what i've been saying. it is a perfect system. so florida is probably going to change. arizona is going to definitely change. everybody wants that to happen. and you're getting the will of the people. it's been pretty amazing when you think. >> yeah, pretty amazing. he's whistling past the political graveyard there, jonathan lemire. the trump campaign is in meltdown mode. he screwed up giving that speech. he was going to talk about a 15-week or 16-week ban, and then he pulled back from that. didn't have the guts to do that. he's trying to be all things to all people. in abortion, that means you're nothing to everybody. here, donald trump is going to

run in florida with a six-week campaign -- i mean, a six-week abortion ban politically wrapped around his neck. in arizona, he's going to be doing the same thing with 160-year abortion ban following behind him. whether they eventually repeal it or not. but that's even questionable. you know, i remind our viewers that republicans in wisconsin had an opportunity before the most important supreme court election in recent time to repeal a total abortion ban that was put in place when john tyler was president. they didn't do it. they paid the price. i don't know. we'll see if arizona republicans decide to keep this 160-year ban on the books. >> if they don't, we're going to see a lot more money having to be spent in arizona, right? we'll see a lot of money having to be spent in florida, even though people say florida will be in play, eh. >> i hear people say florida will be in play.

just let me correct this. i know there are a lot of florida republicans that hope democrats play in florida. 2022 happened because democrats didn't put anything on the field. charlie crist was out there, and it was like king david pulling all the troops back from uriah. the democratic party did not show up. they didn't spend a dime. they ceded the state. by the way, donald trump won the state by 3.5 points against joe biden. again, we'll see what happens with the six-week abortion ban. i always found florida, even in my very conservative district, they're very conservative. there are a lot of military people that have flown all around the world who didn't like the idea of the federal government telling them what they could or couldn't do with their bodies. >> libertarian strand. >> the libertarian strand across florida. tons of independents. they ain't right-wing religious

voters. they're more libertarian, more small government independents. >> joe, what do you see as the relationship between, there's trump and his position, whatever he thinks he's thinking about abortion. then i'm thinking about the dominionist, the judge in alabama who was a seven mountains mandate guy. thinking about this group of folk who are actually pushing this legislation. so there's trump who made overturning roe v. wade possible. >> right. >> then there are the folks who are actually pushing these draconian laws across the board. what do we do with them and their presence in their politics and -- >> i mean, if you're a democratic campaign person, you say, go. go for it. you're going to lose. you're going to lose because they are not the 50%. they're not even the 33%. donald trump, i mean, you know,

chris, donald trump loathes those people. i've been saying it as long as i've known him. he loathes those people. he's always loathed them. he used to mock privately right-wing religious extremists. he hates those people. he always has. that's why when '22 went down, he blamed it on pro-life voters. trump blamed '22 on pro-life voters. he's got no use for them, and so, here, he finds himself in a position where, again, these people are going to determine, you know, whether he gets re-elected or not. he doesn't like it. >> he's caught in the crosswinds here. look at him, he's still taking credit for getting rid of roe v. wade. he is out there bashing away, saying i put these judges in there. i changed the supreme court around. we got rid of the law. now -- >> and he thought -- he's dumb enough to think that's where

it's stop. it never stops. >> it's dynamic. >> give them a little taste of it, and they're going to keep on going. they want more and more and more. more extreme. this is what he did not realize. they'll never be happy. >> biden's position on this is rather sane. he doesn't say free choice, there's no rules. there are no rules about late term or anything else. he says, let's go back to roe v. wade. let's go back to something that was a pretty good compromise. people could live with it. they say, you know, it's much more on the side of the woman making the decision for the first six months, but at the end, there is some societal concerns there. we'll bring that in. the court decision made sense politically. it made sense politically. now, trump is back saying, well, i want all the credit in the world for getting rid of roe v. wade. at the same time, don't blame me for the consequences. what? that's what politics is, consequences. you make decisions to go into iraq or you don't go into iraq. you have consequences. now, you have states that are

hard right, and there are men in these state legislatures that are willing to screw the women and basically, okay, we're going to go totally anti-abortion. just do it. right now, they'd vote to completely outlaw in the 14 states. the other states, six weeks, which men learned, you don't know whether you're pregnant or not. that's one of the revelations of this conversation for men. they're out there. biden -- see, trump needs anger. he only has one reflexive american concern. there is anger about inflation and the border and things like that. i have to make anger work for me. how does he make anger work for him with all these states outlawing abortion? how does he? it doesn't work. >> the anger is at him. >> he's flailing away at the airport, and he'll go to a lot more airports and face a lot more of these situations where he can't answer the question. yes or no, should it be legal or not? he can't answer the question. >> go ahead. >> i was going to say, to chris' point, while he was running away from the decision in arizona and

in florida, he then went on to say, i got rid of roe versus wade. quote, it was an incredible achievement. quote, we did that. >> yeah. >> talking about himself and his administration being the ones who wrought all of this. >> that's what has brought on these revelations where you realize what the consequences are. once again, they are specific and real and very personal and very dire. we've seen them play out ever since roe has been overturned, and that's where the anger is. the anger is aimed at donald trump for doing this to women. >> the biden campaign is hammering donald trump on this. part of a new ad, a seven-figure spending blitz in arizona comes in direct response to the decision by the state's supreme court to uphold an 1864 near total ban on abortion. >> because of donald trump, millions of women lost the fundamental freedom to control their own bodies.

now, women's lives are in danger because of that. the question is, if donald trump gets back in power, what freedom will you lose next? your body and your decisions belong to you, not the government. not donald trump. i will fight like hell to get your freedom back. i'm joe biden, and i approve this message. >> you ad just this morning from the biden/harris campaign. joining us now, democratic senator mark kelly of arizona. senator, thanks for being with us this morning. we're talking a lot about the politics of this. let's talk about the practical questions that have come up in the last couple days in your state. what does this ruling from the state supreme court mean on the ground for women in arizona? >> willie, this is a disaster for women. it is going to drive doctors out of the state. we've seen that already. donald trump had roe overturned when he was president because of the supreme court decision. i've spoken to those doctors,

and that gives women a lot less options. this is all because of donald trump. i mean, we've got a situation now where doctors could be thrown in jail for just doing their jobs. this is a disaster for women. it's clear why this happened. the former president, you know, donald trump, you know, spiked the ball on monday on this thing. you know, claiming that he is responsible for this. it's because he is. >> senator, driving doctors out of the state, i think, would be the beginning. let's think about what the long-term ramifications of this would be, with this law being enforced. who is going to want to go to college in arizona? who is going to want to go on vacation in arizona? who, if you're a woman of child-bearing age or a woman who wants health care, doesn't need to be pregnant, who is going to want to go work in arizona? >> yeah, mika, that's certainly a big issue for us.

president biden has taken steps that's going to create tens of thousands of good paying jobs in the clean energy and semiconductor industry. now, we have this hanging over us. at the same time, joe pointed out florida being a military state. so are we. i served in the navy for 25 years. i mean, when you serve in the military, you don't get a choice as to where you go. >> right. >> folks are going to be -- these are orders. you're sent to a state. if you're a woman or a spouse of a service member who is a woman, your health care is going to be at risk. in some cases, literally, your lives will be at risk. >> mm-hmm. >> hi, senator kelly. it is molly jong-fast. i'm curious, when you are talking about this, what we've seen in states like louisiana is ob-gyns afraid to treat in the first trimester.

i'm curious, is there anything you can do? you do have a democratic governor. you have democratic -- you don't have a democratic legislature, but you have some democrats. is there anything you can do to tell ob-gyns, gynecologists, they're safe to treat, that they have some protection, to protect the women before november? >> molly, i've spoken to ceos of hospitals about this, about, you know, their interactions with their own staff. obgyns who are scared because of the ramifications of this law that is two centuies old. 1864, could throw them in jail for two to five years. doctors are scared. i've talked to, you know, ceos about specific cases, where a woman was going into -- they didn't want to treat the woman until she was nearing sepsis. that puts that woman's life

literally at risk. you ask, what can we do? the legislature could pass a repeal of this 1864 law. they could have done it yesterday. they didn't. there was chaos at our state legislature. they adjourned because they knew the votes were actually there. there are few republicans and the democrats that would repeal this draconian law. didn't happen yesterday. we have other options. we have a ballot initiative that will be on the ballot in november. my hope is that that, you know, codifies what was essentially available for 50 years under roe. this is going to be, you know, sort of a big deal for our election. >> senator kelly, this is eddie glaude. i wanted to ask that question. we can talk about the existential implications of these draconian laws, its impact on women, but let's talk politics for a moment. what will this mean for the presidential election in arizona? do you think it'll energize arizona voters?

what role will women play in your view in the outcome, determining the outcomes of arizona for this election? >> first of all, let me be clear, my biggest concern here is the health care of women in our state. >> absolutely. >> i have a daughter in our state, a granddaughter now. this is a disaster, and it is a huge change from what the status quo was under roe. but this is going to be on the ballot. it looks like the signatures are there. i suspect that it's going to drive a lot of women that might not normally vote to come out and vote and vote for joe biden. because, i mean, let's be clear, this supreme court ruling in arizona said dobbs 22 times. it might as well have said donald trump. folks in arizona are going to understand that. my hope is that they make a choice for change. joe biden is going to fight for the rights of women, fight for

freedoms, and fight against what the former president has allowed to happen. i mean, he literally set the conditions to pass or to bring back this 1864 law. >> yeah. democratic senator mark kelly of arizona, thank you. appreciate it. donald trump is literally fred flintstone, bringing women back to the dark ages. this is not a joke. i mean, this is -- >> if i can say, that's an insult to fred flintstone. one of the great characters in cartoon history. chris, listen to this biden ad again. there's a line that hit me, that strikes me as one of the stronger lines i've heard in political ads. play this biden ad again. >> because of donald trump, millions of women lost a fundamental freedom to control their own bodies. now, women's lives are in danger because of that. the question is, if donald trump

gets back in power, what freedom will you lose next? your body and your decisions belong to you, not the government. not donald trump. i will fight like hell to get your freedom back. i'm joe biden, and i approve this message. >> i don't know if i've ever heard that line, where it actually was so grounded in reality. "i will fight like hell to get your freedom back." what presidential candidate in our lifetime has been able to say, "i will fight like hell to get your freedom back"? >> right. >> that is such a strong line. a 50-year freedom. >> gone. >> my daughter has less rights than her mother had.

we see this time and again. yet, joe biden can say, and voters will believe him because it's the truth, if you elect me, if you re-elect me, i will fight like hell. i will get that freedom back for you or for your wife or for your daughter or for your loved one that donald trump ripped from their hands. >> well, this will take a minute, but that's what this election is about. it's about using your right to vote. the voting rights act of '65, that was about protecting your civil right, human rights, if you are an african-american, for example. right now, women can choose to vote against these draconian laws. they can vote their heart, their body, their person on these issues. that's what freedom is. that's what democracy is. it's what january 6th was about. the right to vote and decide who your leaders are. decide how your rights are going to be protected. it isn't just getting the right

to vote. it's using your vote to protect yourself. bobby kennedy once said, vote for yourself. vote for yourself, in his campaigns for president. you have to vote for yourself. if you're a woman, you say, reproductive rights is important to me. if you're minority or someone else concerned about it, these are issues that matter to me. i don't want frank rizzo, mayor of philadelphia. i want somebody else in there, somebody looking out for me. that's what democracy is. the ability to say no, this is not acceptable. this getting rid of roe v. wade is not acceptable to me or my gender or anybody i care about. this is important to me. you're out of here. this is what democracy is. it is choosing to protect yourself against your enemy in politics. these older members, you can say, of the legislatures out there, they're the enemy. they're going to keep voting against you. you have to vote for yourself. that's why people should vote, whether 18 years old or 80 years old. vote to protect yourself.

the first instance, that's what the election is about. it's a big picture, not just rights of women but votes for everybody. you have to vote for yourself. this guy is going to take away your rights, and you have to understand this. it's what it is about. also, i want to talk about title ix this week. if there wasn't a title ix because of the constitutional rights subcommittee of the senate, if he hadn't said women in college have a right to be protected in sports, that my wife had to pay for travel for the stanford tennis team, if you're a women, you have to pay for your travel to go to away games. excuse me? no, no, no. that's not the way it works if you're on the football team or the tennis team, you'll get protected. this is the way it'll be. this guy insists on the constitutional rights of women. rights and voting work together. >> for the first time, of course, more people watched the women's final than the men's final. >> can you believe those ratings? >> it was great basketball.

>> crazy. you know, though, this is such a choice, willie, such a stark choice. chris talks about the right over your body. that's a clear choice. one side has taken it away. the other side wants to give it back. you can talk about voting rights. one side, biden and the democrats, very clearly want to ensure voting rights for all americans. the other side did everything they could do to kill the john lewis voting rights act. killed every plan to make democracy more accessible, not just for black americans and hispanic americans, but for all americans. if you're talking about student loans and how the federal government has hiked up interest rates, there is one president, there is one party that is fighting for you to get a fair deal on your student loans.

there is another party that has worked nonstop to get in the way and to kill it. it is as clear-cut as can be. january 6th, one side wanted to actually -- >> raid the capitol, kill people. >> one side wanted to confirm the results of 150, 160 million voters on january 6th. the other wanted to undermine it and overthrow it. doesn't get any more clear-cut than this. >> what strikes me is you're listing those, is how so many of the rights you laid out, we've taken for granted for so long. that they'd always there be. of course we affirm the results of an election. it's what we do. ask al gore about it. it was a painful thing to say, yeah, i'm handing it to george w. bush. but it is what we do in this country. molly, you can say that it felt like, for 50 years, about abortion rights, too. now, that has been pulled away, and we're seeing the results of it. >> the line i think was so important in that ad was what

other rights will donald trump take away? because, you know, one of the things we're seeing in this republican party, they're getting overly involved, right, in things that p republic repub historically didn't get involved in. >> clarence thomas said, next, we need to look at marriage equality. go down the list. >> even now with the supreme court, they're talking about overthrowing approvals. you have the government too involved in people's lives in a way voters do not like. that was a very smart line, and it speaks to this libertarian vein which is not nothing in the republican party. >> contraceptives, it is all, again, under threat. >> chris matthews, it's always good to see you. thank you for coming in. molly jong-fast, thank you, as well. still ahead on "morning joe," our next guest says republicans have a stark choice when it comes to ukraine.

help president zelenskyy or pay fealty to donald trump. ed luce at "the financial times." >> freedom versus russian authoritarianism. it's that simple. >> ed joins us with that. along with chairman of the renew democracy initiative. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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in the late 1930s, there was a deliberate and sophisticated nazi propaganda effort in the united states up to and including members of congress, to affect american opinion and political opinion toward the nazi regime and the defense of europe. it worked. until pearl harbor.

today, chairman mccaul and chairman turner in the house have both acknowledged a very sophisticated and concentrated russian misinformation and propaganda attempt here in the united states to affect our public policy toward ukraine. indeed, both of them acknowledge that this has up to and including members of congress. do you see, mr. secretary, a danger to this country from this kind of concerted, conscience misinformation campaign on the part of the russians? >> absolutely, senator. that danger increases on a daily basis. to your point, it is sophisticated to the degree that people don't know, you know, where the information is coming from. >> that was independent senator angus king of maine and defense

secretary lloyd austin discussing the dangerous consequences of russian disinformation. as senator king noted, the republican chairman of the house intelligence committee said russian propaganda is being repeated on the floor of the house by his gop colleagues. joining us now, u.s. national editor at "the financial times," ed luce. and chairman of the renew democracy initiative, former world chess champion, garry kasparov. >> ed luce, you wrote a column for "the financial times" on this yesterday. we see, of course, republican chairmans saying, idiot republicans on the house floor are repeating russian misinformation. along those lines, you saw marjorie taylor greene openly lie. she openly lied about priests being persecuted in ukraine. she took, actually, a reality that's happening in russia, where priests are being

persecuted in russia, and like a soviet propagandist, just flipped it. >> yeah, she's repeating almost word for word. i mean, the analogies with 1940/'41 that senator king brought up are absolutely correct. this is not an overstatement. she's repeating word for word kremlin talking points. about priests being executed by zelenskyy, about ukraine having a nazi regime, and fighting to spread woke values. and other very, very identifiable lines coming from the troll factories supplying information here and coming out of marjorie taylor greene and many other people's mouths. steve scalise, senior gop figure yesterday, said on june the 6th,

congress wouldn't, the house wouldn't be sitting because there would be a congressional delegation to normandy to commemorate the 80th anniversary of d-day. which side do you think they would have been on, these people, in 1940/1941? which side do you think they would have backed in the america first versus franklin roosevelt debate? it's a question that answers itself. they ought to go to kharkiv instead of to normandy. they ought to spend a night listening to the ballistic missiles come in. last night was a particularly bad night. listening to the consequences of what is rapidly becoming a 10-1 artillery advantage of the russians over the ukrainians. when it is 10-1, you lose. the difference between ukraine losing and ukraine being able to fight on is people like mike johnson who are not doing their job. this is a moral disgrace of

generational proportion. >> make no mistake. make no mistake. willie, last night, the suffering of the ukrainian people, garry kasparov said offset, more bombs dropped in one night than dropped in gaza over the course of the last six months. that hell visited upon the ukrainian people by mike johnson, by marjorie taylor greene, but mainly by donald j. trump, who also, by the way, effectively killed fisa, which is our way to track down russian spies. you don't have to be really that smart to connect all the dots together on why donald trump would want to kill fisa. >> these guys are going to normandy? really? >> that was a rules vote on fisa that donald trump put up a truth social yesterday, said, "kill it." enough republicans made sure it didn't go out even op a rul on

vote. put the pieces together. ukraine aid was there. mike johnson and republicans said, we have to take care of our own border first before ukraine. a bipartisan group in the senate did that. >> led by james lankford. >> the most conservative immigration deal in generations. it wasn't enough for speaker mike johnson because donald trump told him not to take immigration off the table for the election. with that, garry kasparov, we were commenting in our break that it does appear that the most, how should we say it, most vulnerable among our lawmakers seem to be the ones that are spouting all the russian propaganda. it is so easy to track. i'm sure for you when you hear tommy tuberville say, actually, the united states pushed russia into this war with ukraine, i think putin is on top of his game, the words of senator tommy tuberville, and everything we've heard from marjorie taylor greene. when you hear united states officials saying those things, what does it sound like to your ear? >> i can't believe my ears.

i grew up in the world where america was a formidable force. love or hate, it was there. what's happening now is just, for me and my european friends, it's like the world is falling apart. disinformation is too generous. it's outright lies. they don't even pretend to make it sound as real. so they're simply turning it upside down. of course, they want ukraine to lose. they're not hiding it. unfortunately, the administration is not showing enough strength, so this is a problem. for europeans, the way they see it, you have reckless administration and reckless trump and a treacherous, treacherous republicans that are rooting for putin to win. they're not at all hiding it. not recognizing that ukraine is not the last stop. you know, it is not gary kapaa

garry kasparov saying that. it is vladimir putin saying that. >> let's be clear, he said after ukraine, it'll be latvia, lithuania. he is going to poland. he's talked about poland. >> he doesn't have to say it. >> he's taking -- >> no, no. >> -- more. >> they're at war with nato. if you have to listen to russian propaganda, they're not fighting ukraine. ukraine is an american puppet. for them, winning the war in ukraine shows the west is a paper tiger. of course, you know, next will be one of the nato countries. the whole idea is to take revenge for world war iii. they thought the cold war was world war iii. they're now in world war iv. putin is already in world war iv now. he's saying that. unfortunately, the way things are being conducted, he believes he is winning. >> jonathan lemire, the message it sent to china, to president xi, to kim jong-un in north korea, unmistakable message,

unmistakable. this is what republican chairman and chairwomen in the house have said about their idiot back benchers who are pro-putin, saying, you're not just giving putin ukraine and eastern and central europe, you're giving xi taiwan. >> you know who else said this yesterday was prime minister kishida of japan, standing next to president biden in the rose garden at the news conference. saying, what happens in ukraine could be a coming attraction as to what happens in the taiwan strait. that's why japan has been so involved in that effort, as well. there's deep concern here that if the republicans in the congress, if they stand down, america can't help this ally, they won't help the next one either. ed luce, president biden in the news conference concluded it by saying this ukraine bill needs to come for a vote. this vote will pass. put it on the floor. that's up to speaker johnson. where is speaker johnson going tomorrow? he's going to mar-a-lago. he's going to meet with donald trump. what are your expectations coming out of this? meaning, just had there been a

little momentum, a little optimism that some sort of ukraine bill may go forward, this could be scuttled. >> it could easily be. foreign secretary of former prime minister of britain went to try to persuade trump. brought fruits to the volcano. no luck, as far as reports i've heard. i don't think mike johnson is going to talk about ukraine because he knows what answer he'd get. he's going to give a joint conference with trump on election integrity, which i find very hard to say with a straight face. i think johnson now had six months to show where he stands on the ukraine issue. all along, his instinct has been to feint, to pretend he is trying to get a bill to the floor, but, in practice, stop a bill from getting to the floor. he knows that he cannot supply ukraine and please trump. you cannot do both.

that's a circle he cannot square. if it comes to a choice, every time, mike johnson will go for trump. just one last point, people refer to the republican stance, the maga republican stance as isolationism. it's not. this is active, pro-russian interventionalism. >> so this is an important point that ed luce just stated. angus king, in his -- when he dealt with the secretary of defense, invoked 1940, america first. what do you see is the motivation behind the americans who are supporting putin in this instance? because we know what the issue is with ukraine. we got that. but what do you think is actually behind this, that leads folk to embrace russia and the way they're embracing them? >> it's a long story. i think the parallel with 1940 probably may not be very

accurate. the balance of power in 1940 was not as it is today. >> okay. >> don't forget, germany was too strong. stalin was on german side. japan was too strong. italy was controlled by fascists. today, the free world has overwhelming military and economic advantage. again, we're getting lazy. we're complacent, on one side. >> yup. >> also, you have donald trump. it's a very different view about america's role. donald trump is not hiding his agenda. he wants to make, not peace, but deals with putin on this war. i can hardly explain how people in his party, some of them, still minority, are openly arguing for putin's interest. you have to build it down the road. if ukraine loses, then american lives will be on the line. or you have to walk away. don't forget, america can find

the deficit. dollars are currency because america is strong. if you sacrifice and walk away, a lot of people in china are there waiting. you know, why should we pay american debt? america has to choice but to stay on top or everything will fall down like a house of cards. >> talk about last night's attacks in ukraine. >> look, it's after secretary austin and some of the top officials talked about ukraine, concerns about ukraine attacking russia, russia launched the most massive attack on ukraine and their infrastructure. again, they use ballistic missiles, commensurable ballistic missiles. ballistic missiles. it's the attack that's never happened before. again, remember in 1946, there's nothing the russians admire so much as strength, and for weeks

they have less respect for weakness. it projects weakness. it's not just america but europe. europe says, america, what will you do? russia has one advantage in shells. the combined gdp of europe versus russia is 25-1. how come in the war, ukraine still doesn't have resources to fight the russian army? they made sacrifices. they can beat russia and win the war. they proved their heroism. you can't beat them without weapons. now, they are low on missiles to defend the attack. >> national editor at "the financial times", ed luce. chairman of the renew democracy initiative, garry kasparov, thank you very much for coming on this morning. coming up, famed political photographer david hume kennerly parts ways with the gerald ford foundation, issuing a scathing

resignation letter over what he describes as the group's fear of donald trump. the pulitzer prize winner joins us next for his first television interview since stepping down. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪hey♪ ♪ ♪are you ready for me♪ ♪are you ready♪ ♪are you ready♪ i used to leak urine when i coughed, laughed or exercised. i couldn't even enjoy playing with my kids. i leaked too. i just assumed it was normal. then we learned about bulkamid - an fda-approved, non-drug solution for our condition. it really works, and it lasts for years. it's been the best thing we've done for our families. visit findrealrelief.com to find an expert physician near you. ask if bulkamid is right for you and discuss potential risks. results and experiences may vary. move beyond the leaks. hi, i'm kim, and i lost 67 pounds on golo.

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welcome back. the former chief white house photographer for gerald ford has left the foundation that bears the late president's name over this year's selection for its most prestigious award. david hume kennerly believes the medal for public service should go to former congresswoman liz cheney. kennerly is slamming the board in his resignation letter writing that cheney was passed over out of fear of retaliation from donald trump, and the pulitzer prize-winning photographer joins us now. thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. i want to talk about the resignation letter that you sent to the foundation after cheney's

nomination to receive the medal for distinguished public service was rejected multiple times, and you write in part, quote, a key reason liz's nomination was turned down was your agita about what might happen if the former president is re-elected. some of you raised the specter of being attacked by the internal revenue service and losing the foundation's tax-exempt status as retribution for selecting liz for the award. the historical irony was completely lost on you. gerald ford became president, in part, because richard nixon had ordered the development of an enemy's list and demanded his underlings use the irs against those listed. that's exactly what the executive committee fears will happen if there's a second coming of donald trump. you conclude, today i'm resigning from the gerald r.

ford board as a trustee. if the foundation that bears the name of gerald r. ford won't stand up to this real threat to our democracy, who will? i guess we'll begin there. who will? because at this point, i do believe your letter is -- a lot of people are seeing that donald trump can be believed in terms of the retribution that he wants to unleash on people he doesn't like. >> that's what he's saying. i believe him, and the person standing up is liz cheney, and she's the only person on this planet that should have had that award. they're putting out statements from the board about how they had to not give her the award because it would threaten their tax status, and that's just, you

know, going down the legal rabbit hole. >> yeah. it really is. i mean, john, you look at that and look at the fact -- i mean, if you've lost the gerald r. ford foundation, you've lost the plot, and as david said, this is liz cheney on the board. liz cheney is the perfect selection here, and yet the board has david said, the board scared to step up and did the -- do the right thing. >> liz cheney exempt for putting patriotism above party. she knew what she was getting into when she criticized trump and helped chair those january 6th committees. she was routed in her own primary in the state of wyoming, but yet this shows, david, trump's ongoing grip on the party and just the fear by which he rules. talk to us a little bit more about what you saw there, you

know, the day-to-day of that organization, how trump may have influenced it, and also, what you're concerned about what may be next. after this foundation, what could be next? it's the slow, slow creep of his power. >> right. i think that's the overarching thing that i wrote about was that this is happening all over the country where people are afraid to step up, afraid to say anything, and liz is a bright, shining light. he's been threatened with death. she has had, you know, her family threatened, and she's still at it, and thank god for that. i've known liz since she was 8 years old, and i'm not surprised by what she's doing, and i really just wanted to support her. the foundation which i have been on for a couple of decades is -- is not stepping up with her. they're giving all these excuses

now about -- that would affect their status because she was a candidate for president. >> right. >> well, she never announced that she was a candidate for president, number one, and just a little p.s., her dad, dick cheney, whom i worked with at the white house, and as you know was vice president of the united states, got the award in august of 2004 when he was a candidate for vice president again. so maybe he should give that award back to them for fear they might lose their status. >> yeah. >> it contradicts their argument here with liz cheney. i know you didn't make this decision lightly. it was 50 years ago this year that you became white house photographer for president ford, a man that means a lot to you and an organization that does. was it the consensus of the board that this award should not go to liz cheney, or was it?

discussion, and there were people talking about it, or were you a lonely voice in your defense of liz cheney? >> to be clear, it was the executive committee of the board. it wasn't the board in general of which i was a member, and all of us could put in names for the people we wanted for that award. that's what happens every year, really, and i strongly suggested liz. that was last year, probably in november when this came up, and then basically they were saying that because she's running for president, which she never was -- she never announced she was running for president. she had talked about the possibility, but she was not a candidate, and so they were just being petty and fearful like so many people in the country, and you've got to listen to liz. i mean, she's out there getting big crowds all around the country of democrats and

republicans to hear her message, which is to keep donald trump away from the oval office. that's the only award she wants, is to see him put out to pasture. >> david, thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. by the way, david sent me some incredible pictures of my father. >> oh yeah. >> that he took. >> with walter mondale. >> i have them preserved in my office, and they are prominently displayed on the wall. thank you for that, and thank you very much for what you have done and for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> good to be here. thank you. >> thank you. coming up, we'll dig into new presidential polling that is swinging president biden's way. that survey also got a sense of how voters feel about donald trump's upcoming hush money trial. that's all straight ahead on "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. ahead n "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds

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get this. today, former president trump held an event in atlanta and stopped at a local chick-fil-a. >> can i have 30 milk shakes, and also some chicken? [ laughter ] >> after trump placed the order, the cashier said, we're going to need to see the money first. just -- we heard some things. we heard some things. [ applause ] we heard some things. >> all right. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, april 11th, and speaking of the former

president, his legal team lost yet another desperate delay attempt in the hush money criminal case making them 0 for 3 in last-minute attempts to push back the looming trial. it starts on monday. we'll look at what legal options they have left. also ahead, speaker mike johnson is headed down to mar-a-lago tomorrow to meet with trump. the trip comes as the former president's allies in the house are threatening johnson's speakership. what are they planning together? a deal in the making. >> oh my god. >> along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, member of the "new york times" editorial board, mara gayeis with us, and the host of the podcast donny deutsche is with us. >> there's so much to cover today. >> the new polling -- >> but not today. >> general election polling

shows a nine-point swing toward president joe biden and the latest national survey from reuters and ipsos, biden leads trump by four points, 41% to 37% within the poll's margin of error, but marks a shift from january when trump led biden, 43% to 48%. 64% of registered voters also say the charges trump faces in his upcoming hush money trial either vary -- very or somewhat serious. also if he's convicted by election day, 24% of republicans and 13% of current trump voters say they would not cast their ballots for presumptive gop nominee. >> nope. >> that could be a little bit why they keep trying to delay this. >> mm-hmm. >> every day they come up with a new attempt that is rejected. if the trial starts monday, that

is jury selection. i believe there will be more attempts to delay jury selection. >> no such luck. we always talk about trend lines, and the trend lines are all breaking joe biden's way. i mean, if you look at the top, trump, you probably would jump off the brooklyn bridge i mean, because he's, like, maga meltdown and, like, talking about all the polls breaking in joe biden's way, but they are. the trend lines are pretty strong for biden coming out -- again, still coming out of the state of the union. >> if you look back at that first -- the overall number, you see joe biden since january, within the margin of error kind of at this -- at the same spot if we can look at it. there it is. if you see the bottom, it's erosion for donald trump, and donny, that's part of what the joe biden is counting on, which is you see a little bit more of joe biden and you look at the data, you look at the numbers. inflation number wasn't great yesterday. we'll get to that, but really the more donald trump is out there, the more he's railing,

the more he's in a courtroom, the more you saw it in this number about the hush money trial which is also an election interference trial, the more the public sees of donald trump, the biden campaign hopes the less it wants to see him back in the white house. >> yeah, and there's something in that poll that i want to just reiterate people. this hush money thing makes him look like the victim. no. seeing him every day, and hearing him every day in the news is not helping him. i could never understand that logic, how somebody who is under indictment for felony charges and about to face charges, somehow that's good for them. it's not. the numbers show that. he will be convicted. i don't think there's any question about it, and that spins off about a quarter of the republicans. that's a big number. >> yeah, and mara, it is, again, a constant. it's a constant drumbeat not

just for what bide season saying, but what it's saying about trump. if you go down x or threads, i think the biden campaign is putting out donald trump's own words like every 15 minutes. it's brutal, and every single one of those messages, i mean, any swing voter would look at it and cringe. >> americans have the tendency to romanticize the recent past, but now that they're seeing more of donald trump and in this case from the biden campaign, they're remembering just how awful that presidency was, and there's also just a slice of americans who don't follow politics daily the way that we obsessively do. >> right. >> now it's dawning on them. he's not going away. he's the presumptive republican nominee, and now they're really looking at their two choices. they're not looking at, you know, joe biden and maybe somebody else. they're thinking, oh, it's going to be joe biden or this guy

again? >> yeah. >> i don't think so, and the other element of this case in manhattan is -- really this is let's remember about hush money payments to cover up, you know, allegedly this affair he had with stormy daniels. >> it sounds quaint at this point. >> it sounds quaint. it sounds quaint, but again, i just think he's in court because he was covering up bad behavior about the way he treats women at a time when american women across the country, our rights are under assault really. >> yeah. >> on abortion, and i think that those things are starting to converge because people are starting to look at donald trump and say, i don't trust him. >> yeah. >> and he's a crook. >> yeah. you know, jonathan, there may be some people out there that are a little bit surprised by the numbers, the trend lines that are breaking in joe biden's direction. the biden campaign, the biden white house would be last on that list because even a couple of months ago when everybody was freaking out, democrats wanted to jump off of buildings.

they're, like, he's not on the ballot. when people realize we're running against him, we'll be fine. >> dare we call it joe-mentum. we probably shouldn't. that's what they're calling it. >> inflation 3.5%. that's the problem. >> that's the problem. i was getting to that. right now this is what the biden campaign forecasted though. they figured they knew the president was going to take hits during the primaries, anger about gaza, young voters, uncommitted ballots in wisconsin. they factor that in, and they know they'll have to deal with that, but as you said a moment ago, the more americans saw trump, they would be turned off by him. as the biden campaign steadily rolls out with huge fund-raising advantages, opening up offices in battleground states across the country, promoting infrastructure and other bills although some in the president's inner circle say they're doing too much of that, and being uncertain what the criminal kays

will lead. no one knows what would happen. >> what was the ron clain thing? >> clain gave a speech the other night saying that the president has been too focused on infrastructure and that was his flippant way of doing it, about bridges and saying he needs to be more focused on consumer prices and costs, and the numbers suggest maybe he has a point, but the white house pushback was immediate and said, well, the infrastructure, first of all, a, that's something americans need and b, it's showing we can get things done in bipartisan fashion. we need to sell our record of accomplishment. we can't just say, hey. we're not donald trump, but they're not donald trump, and i think to mara's point, the abortion headlines over the last week or so as well really strengthens the president's case here, and we're seeing trump flail. we saw it again yesterday trying to explain what he means. >> so speaking of, former president trump is trying to change his position yet again on abortion health care. trump spoke with reporters following has arrival in atlanta yesterday saying he would not sign a federal abortion ban

reversing a promise he made as a candidate back in 2016, and just days after saying abortion policies should be left to the states, he then criticized the state of arizona's supreme court saying it went too far in restricting abortion access. >> did arizona go too far? >> yeah, they did, and that will be straightened out, and as you know it's all about state's rights, and i'm sure the governor and everybody else will bring it back into reason, and that'll be taken care of very quickly. florida is probably making a change also. so florida's probably going to change. arizona is going to definitely change. everybody wants that to happen, and you're getting the will of the people. it's been pretty amazing when you think. >> you know, it is pretty amazing that he can sit there and say, well -- >> he created the situation. >> 12 minutes and 30 seconds that all conflict with each

other, including the lie that arizona's legislature would fix it quickly because no they didn't because republicans -- his party -- they adjourned quickly because they were freaked out they may stop a 160-year-old abortion ban from being the law of arizona. i mean, it just keeps getting worse, and this nonsense of his saying, oh, we're going to leave it to the states, but, you know, and then he comes out and says, no national abortion ban. he's just offended about 45% of his base. he loses like coming and going. he didn't realize republicans had it best when they just cynically sat back and said, oh, we support a national abortion ban and did nothing about it. now they're realizing just, you know -- >> just how much they own. >> how bad it is. the dog caught the car and then somebody forced the dog to get in the front seat of the car and drive the car, and they're

driving it over the cliff. >> the tune is the cat. >> this is donald the dog, and yeah. the dog's driving it over the cliff. >> in donald trump's attempt over the last three or four days to please everyone, he has pleased exactly no one. there is no position he can take that's going to please the amount of people he needs to win the election, and that was just flailing yesterday. he flailed the day before. the argument from him is -- he rarely stays on a message, but someone told him to say state's rights. here it is in arizona. the state is taking control of the abortion issue and now we got a 160-year-old law, enforceable on the books and he's saying in that case, that one's bad. not in that state. >> right. ox. >> there's no safe place for him to land. >> he said states' rights on monday and on tuesday, states go, okay.

hold my beer, and then on wednesday, oh, no, no. not states' rights. >> here's what we're talking about in arizona. a day after an arizona supreme court ruled a 160-year-old near total abortion ban is enforceable, republicans of the state legislature blocked efforts to repeal the law. republican leaders in arizona's legislature which is controlled by conservatives, said they will be, quote, closely reviewing the high court's ruling and listening to their constituents to determine how to proceed. however, they then scuttled an effort to appeal the law by adjourning until next week, prompting angry jeers from democrats. >> i move that we recess to the sum of the bill immediately. >> you've heard the secondary motion. i heard a second. >> second. >> all in favor of that motion, vote aye. >> all: aye. >> all opposed, vote no. >> shame on you! [ chanting "shame on you" ] [ chanting "hold the vote" ]

>> they're not going to win being behind donald trump being responsible for a total abortion ban -- a total abortion ban i think with no exceptions for rape and incest. >> no. just life of the mother. >> that was -- went into law before arizona was a state and before abraham lincoln -- >> before women had the right to vote. >> before abraham lincoln was re-elected this total abortion ban came into effect. >> and there were 6,500 people living in arizona when this happened, so think about this ban now. think about arizona women. all women now don't have access to health care that could save their lives. anyone who goes to visit arizona, don't go there. you might have an -- if you need an emergency d and c, or

emergency treatment, you won't get it. why would you take a vacation in arizona or live in arizona? >> getting a bus ticket's not that bad. did they actually say that? >> yeah. >> yes. >> they said, oh yeah. it's not a big deal. buy a bus ticket and go to another state. >> that's embarrassing for them. i mean, it looks like you're going to have to drive four hours in some places in that state to be able to get health care you need, and we're talking, you know, abortion is health care, is this is going to involve people as well who actually want pregnancies and have medical emergencies. this is going to involve women who are in life or death situations, and now we have hospitals and health care facilities in arizona who don't even know what they are supposed to do, and so you have doctors hesitating before saving women's lives. >> going to the board. >> right. wondering if they're going to be prosecuted. >> not just for women who are pregnant. so women are being denied the

health care they are used to that saves their lives, improves their lives, keeps them out of pain, perhaps gets them out of a situation where they're bleeding out. they will not get that in arizona. >> right. >> thanks to donald trump by the way. >> and it also puts them in a position where they may be able to have babies in the future. unfortunately, we're seeing all too often, and joe biden's campaign underlining this situation of the lady who may never be able to have a baby again. >> really powerful -- >> i just wanted to, you know, pregnancy is actually a very dangerous condition. >> yes. >> and so -- >> it's scary enough. >> it's scary enough as it is, and so the idea that you would essentially threaten prosecution of doctors, you know, who are trying to actually provide care to human beings in that condition is abominable, and i cannot imagine this is going to go over well with arizona voters

and not just women. >> men. >> men too. >> the most obvious aspect is important, but the political one too. it's a panic these last few days about what arizona did. trump gives his position on abortion and the next day this happens. there's a repeal in florida, his home state, and this changes the calculus come november. i think it's still likely out of reach, but he'll make republicans spend money there, but arizona which seemed like it was slipping away, and biden won it in 2020. this consensus in wilmington, it'll be harder this time around. they haven't given up on him, but they knew it would be harder, be it's squarely in play again with abortion rights being on the ballot, and if that is the case, it opens up their path 70 when it thought it was only going to be able to go through pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan, and you add arizona, and they have options. >> how hard would it be to put an ad together? >> there are ads out there. >> in arizona?

>> a woman who almost lost her life is probably compelling. we talked about the polls. that was pre-arizona. abortion is the issue, you know, it was said, the economy's stupid. it's abortion stupid. i've said this before. women are going to save this country. this is on women, and, you know, we can see -- >> and the men who love them. >> and women, not only their votes. they will be talking to their fathers and husbands and sons and saying r you kidding me? thank god for women and arizona is going to be a big, big, big deal. >> and donald trump's scramble to get to some position on abortion, he went on to say that taking away roe versus wade for which he takes full credit, it was an incredible thing, an incredible achievement, quote, we did that. >> yes. >> he said, well, no. give it back to the states, but what arizona did is bad. reporters said, what about florida? that's bad too. they should change that. is he going to have to go state by state and get to half the country by the time he stops counting and saying, well, no.

those are all bad, but we should still give it back to the states? the point being there's nowhere for him to hide on this. >> this is becoming a trend and the undecided voters we looked at yesterday and the focus groups by wic, a lot of the undecided are people who had voted for trump in the past saying, we don't know where he stands on anything. he keeps changing and you just can't believe him, and, you know, at least biden, i may not like him, but i can believe what he says. >> those by the way -- that was a crazy focus group because you're missing that everyone talked about economics. biden -- oh, it's horrible. and you're sitting there thinking, well, this election's over. you go, what do you think about donald trump? they were talking over each other, like, they couldn't talk quickly enough about why they were offended by donald trump, but abortion, we learn about these things in focus groups

like the lady who said, you know, he's one of us, and then in 2020, elise is with a trumper a conspiratorial trumper who said, i'm not talking about abortion. that's none of my business. the thing that got me into the ones you played yesterday was, the libertarian with, you know, the headphones on. total libertarian. he said, wait a second. now wait. so we're -- the government can't do anything right, his view. the government can't do anything right, and we're turning our bodies over to them? it's, like, this is the worst thing in the world, and so you get to understand why even for some people that may not be married, may not have daughters, may not have a personal, intimate connection, they're sitting there going, well, wait. if they can do that to women, they can do that to me, and this is really frightening when the federal government comes in and takes control of your body,

takes control of your health care. suddenly you look at what that guy, what that libertarian's saying, and you start to understand why this cuts across all demographics. >> see, that's a consistent and rational argument. i don't know if everyone's going to make that, but if you believe that the federal government should be burned down as steve bannon and others in the trump world have said and get rid of all departments of this, the education, and the irs and everything else, you can't then have a little carveout for, well, actually we should have doughy, old white men telling women what they should do with their bodies too from the united states senate. it just doesn't work that way. he makes a good point. >> or that person in jackson, mississippi, guys that have come off of delta and they go to mississippi, and they're deciding to tell, you know, 25-year-old women who have two children, who are having a complicated pregnancy, i know best what you should do with your body.

i mean f that doesn't freak the hell out of everybody, then i don't know what does. >> i thought what was interesting also, those were swing states, undecided voters, people who had voted for trump, and what was really fascinating to me is that trump's division had broken through. they may not watch this show. they may watch -- >> everybody watches this show. >> or fox, because if they voted for trump, they probably get their news somewhere else maybe, and still the division had broken through. you heard one voter saying, january 6th, i don't know, if that could happen, what else could happen? he's so divisive. he's so mean. that had broken through as much as the denial and the avoidance might be happening on certain networks where people get their news. that's number one. so i think when people as you say, tune into the election and start looking at their options, they're going to see this and be, like, whoa. it's even gotten worse rather than better, and then add this abortion situation?

they're going to be seeing and hearing, enduring the ramifications of what donald trump has done to women's health care across america because in every statement, but in many states with these bans, women will be talking to their doctors about the options they don't have anymore. >> yeah. >> because of donald trump. >> i think -- i think the biggest challenge, donny, is whether you talk about abortion, the radicalism of that, and the divide or what mika is talking about. i think his great challenge is just the sense of exhaustion. >> yeah. >> i was hearing from trumpers in 2020 saying, oh. i don't know. i'm so exhausted by this guy. every day it's a different fight, and these were trumpers that were saying it. that was before january the 6th. that was before he completely,

completely went -- went way out there. he was already pretty far out there. >> look, and we haven't even seen the campaign yet. really, if you really think about the last six, eight months, we haven't seen much of them. he's in mar-a-lago holding court down there. i want to talk about something, and bring up january 6th and bringing that together with abortion. safety is a big word. if you say to people, do you feel safe, do you feel safe? joe biden, you know, you can say everything you want about joe biden, he's old and this, and he's not perfect. he kind of comes on and there's, like, a primal safe, like, i think i feel safe with this guy. and i think, you know, whether it's a woman and you're worried about your body, or whether you're worried about, you know, on the streets, there's a -- and i think there are primal number one thing is to feel safe, and i think trump makes people feel unsafe, whether it's abortion, or january 6th, or anything else. >> don't make quick, sudden moves. don't make quick, sudden moves. >> he's not inciting a riot. >> he won't sneak up on you.

>> asking people armed to head to the capitol. >> yeah. coming up on "morning joe," the latest amid fears that more hostages may be dead than previously believed. what hamas leaders are saying about the ongoing negotiations. plus, we'll get to president biden's state visit with japan's prime minister as the administration looks to put a focus on countering china. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ina. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. hey! asthma's got you going through it? grab nucala for fewer asthma attacks. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue.

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joining us now, president emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass. he's author of the weekly newsletter "home and away" available on substack, and we'll get to this now. hamas reportedly does not have 40 living hostages who meet the

criteria for an exchange under the latest ceasefire proposal. that's according to the "new york times" which cited a senior ho mass official. negotiators have proposed a six-week ceasefire during which hamas would release 40 hostages, women, the elderly, and the sick and five female soldiers. "the times" reports an israeli official says hamas' claim has been relayed to mediators who are facilitaing negotiations, however this raises fears more hostages might be dead than previously believed. as of now, israel believes more than 100 people are still being held captive in gaza, and at least 30 hostages have died. >> i'm skeptical of that 100

number. i don't think they believe that because richard, judging from what they have been saying for some time, off the record, there has been a fear that hamas, a terror group that has killed, you know, so many of these hostages, and we said it, unfortunately, when they went in. hamas, again, just savages. terrorists, were raping these women in broad daylight. certainly, probably raping them underground. they were never going to release them. they were never going to release them. they're terrorists. they could not let those women get in front of a bank of microphones and speak to the war crimes that were committed against them repeatedly. i don't mean to -- i know this sounds awfully harsh, but this is -- this is what u.s. officials had been fearing for four months now. >> it's interesting, joe. a lot of us thought that the reason, you know, that you

couldn't get a hostage deal is hamas was holding onto the hostages for leverage. >> right. >> that was their own -- >> they killed them. >> that was the other possibility. there's no hostages to give back. the israelis were thinking the numbers of people still living was less than 75. it might be decidedly less than that now, so the idea of these many hostage deals which is what bill burns and others have been trying to negotiate with qatar, it seems to me are less and less likely, and i think it just, again, the israelis have to decide now whether to put whatever remaining hostages are at the center of what they do, or does benjamin netanyahu go into rafah? i think that conversation is where the israelis are. >> you talked privately to israeli officials. obviously publicly they want to keep hope alive and they do hope -- they really do hope they can find all these hostages, but there's some of what joe is saying here, the fear that many were killed that day or have been killed in the six months since then. so much as we talk about this

negotiation, so much of the burden has been placed on israel, and yes, they have to do better with the way they're prosecuting the war, and we've said that. they have to do better with aid in gaza, and we have said that at nauseam here, but they have somebody across the table who carried out one of the worst attacks in human history on october the 7th and the holding -- they could release the hostages and make this go away, you know? so i think, yes, there's plenty of criticism to be levied at israel for the way they've conducted the war, but let's not forget who they're dealing with here. >> and where this starts. >> yeah. >> they could have done this any time over the past six months, right? >> exactly. >> we have to go back -- i want to just bring people back to the hamas charter which is of course, all about destroying jews in the world. article 13 says, jihad is the only answer. we're looking for a solution. we're looking for negotiation. we're looking for a ceasefire. it's not on the table for them, and what we also take for granted is what i call the curve, that if some god willing,

these hostages are alive, we get 40, and we'll get hundreds of prisoners back. the ones that did the slaughter, the ones that started this, the ones that want to destroy western civilization, destroy jews, israel has to negotiate with one hand tied behind their backs. there is no negotiation. it's in their charter. they will not negotiate. they don't want a settlement. they want a jihad. jihad is the answer. these are their words. >> but that's not on the table. the idea of hamas -- they have ruled itself out forever as a party or partner. that's not on the table, and you're right. the real question then is can israel one day find a partner? >> right. >> that includes as savage as hamas is, the palestinians are willing to act fundamentally, and coexist peacefully with the jewish state, that is a political problem. >> this is a tough question. there's 2 million palestinians, and i mean 2 million in gaza,

and we know the tragedy that happens. my concern going forward is that so many are radicalized by no fault of their own. they're taught when they're children and it's not like you can lift off this top piece. that's what worries me going forward. how radicalized is the population? that's why i lose sleep over it. >> how much more radicalized have they become? >> yes. >> the entire population. hamas has always been radical, and question i have to ask is there's no negotiating with hamas. mara, but not to just repeat the same question over and over again, but until it is answered, we need to repeat it. there's no negotiating with hamas unless you're bb netanyahu, who negotiated with hamas for years, and if you are a parent or a loved one of one of these dead hostages, you have

to ask, why would bb netanyahu giving cash to hamas through qatar three weeks before their loved one was kidnapped, raped, brutalized, and sent to the tunnels of the gaza? why did bb netanyahu turn a blind eye to the plans of october 7th for a year beforehand? why did he turn a blind eye to the fact that he knew in 2018 along with donald trump how hamas was getting their money? and they did nothing. nothing. >> yeah. i mean, just to be clear, just to reiterate, it was hamas that perpetrated horrific attacks on october 7th. >> right. >> they alone are responsible for that carnage. at the same time, it is also true, and it appears to be that we are learning even more about this and the international community as, you know, learned much more in the past six months, that some of the policies that bb netanyahu's

government has been carrying out, you know, may have strengthened hamas including ignoring those reports, and we should be asking those questions, but i think moving forward it's also a question of to richard's point, of well, who will the partner be? because you can't just wish away 2 million people in gaza, and you know, there needs to be palestinian leadership that, yes, fundamentally acts differently, but is also allowed to sit at the negotiating table with the israeli state, and that is -- that is -- we don't have that yet. it's hard to see how you get there because, of course, you know, the campaign that israel has prosecuted over the past six months, how can that not have a radicalizing effect on children in gaza? we're a long way away, but you have to have hope. you have to look at conflicts around the world, be it in

ireland or in south africa, you have to have hope. you have to start somewhere. >> exactly. >> you can't have peace without justice, or justice without peace. i don't mean to be trite about it, but those are real concepts right now. we don't have either on the ground. there seems to be no justice with these hostages or these palestinian children. it is tragic not just for that region, but that the world has had to watch this unfold. >> richard, stay with us. we want to talk about president biden's meeting at the white house with japan's prime minister, and what it means for u.s. efforts to counter china's growing influence around the world. that's next on "morning joe." at. hello, ghostbusters. it's doug. we help people customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. we got a bit of a situation. [ metal groans] sure, i can hold. ♪ liberty liberty liberty liberty ♪ in theaters now. why would i use kayak to compare

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the alliance between japan and the united states is a cornerstone of peace, security, prosperity in the indo-pacific

and around the world. >> richard, can you talk a little bit about the visit by the japanese prime minister? last night -- >> sure. this is really interesting. japan is the single most important ally of the united states. it's democratic, one of the world's strongest militaries, and it's pushing back in china in the south china sea. that's why we're meeting in the leadership in the philippines and they're pushing back on taiwan. this is one of the great success stories of the last 75 years. we have gone from a japan that was one of the two countries that brought about world war ii to now as america's closest ally in the world, and it's truly the center of what we're trying to do to manage the rise of china, and what yesterday, it was today, the speech in the joint session of congress. we always say -- we talk about foreign policy, and obviously so much of it is negative. this is one of the great positive stories of the last three-quarters of the century.

>> a picture of normalcy, which we will take it these days. before we let you go, richard, you are a golf correspondent. >> right. >> you can't see my socks, but i have my golf socks on today. >> yes, you do. you actually do. this guy has fun socks on today. >> okay. >> a little rain this morning? >> yes, sir. >> a little wind for the first round of the masters. that will push back the schedule a little. >> it's worth waiting for. >> but it looks beautiful the rest of the weekend. are you hanging in there with rory as your pick? >> my emotional pick is rory. my golf pick is scottie scheffler. scottie scheffler is playing a level of golf that we have not seen in the world. >> that's jon rahm we're looking at. >> that's the winner last year. liv. this is also a little bit of tension between liv and the pga which i know, joe, is at the center here. >> you know, willie and i have a history at the masters. it's another story. >> let's hear it. >> we flipped a coin and i was, like, willie, do you take it or do i take it? i won. so i get to play that day.

willie was caddy, and we won. i never saw it coming. i got the green jacket. i'm going to wear it on monday. >> you know what's so great about our 15-year-old 1987 masters joke? we weren't thinking through it at the time. that's the year famously, larry mise won with a chip in on 11 at the last playoff. we have snatched his glory and we apologize for that. larry mise, a native of augusta, georgia won the 1987 masters. >> why didn't we just do it like kdka? >> you think the joke is 15 years old. we're getting to 17, like, next month. >> 17? >> a hole in one yesterday on the par 3. >> did he really? wow. >> 17 years you guys have been doing this. wow. >> why are we doing it? >> '88. i won it in '88. >> they were coming. the green jacket is. >> reporter: -- very good for you. >> richard haass, thank you very coming on this morning. coming up, our next guest is

out with his first solo album in nearly 20 years. oscar winning composer and songwriter, t-bone burnett is here, straight ahead on "morning joe." t-bone burnett is here, straight ahead on "morning joe. i'm a guy who lost a bet. and my dignity. as if watching my team lose wasn't punishment enough. hahaha. and if you have cut rate car insurance, odds are you'll be paying for that yourself. so, get allstate.

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♪♪ welcome back. women-owned businesses are continuing to fuel the economy, according to a recent report from wells fargo. women own over 14 million businesses in the u.s. and employee more than 12 million

workers. that's pretty good. however, women entrepreneurs account for only 4% of all conventional small business loans. if you're a minority or low income entrepreneur, it's even more difficult to get a loan and get your business up and running. it will invest more than $40 billion in capital, helping more than 750,000 women-owned businesses in 70 cities nationwide over the next decade. joining us now to talk more about this is andrea jung. she was also a judge for forbes

and know your value 50 over 50 list. also with us, huma abedin and maggie mcgrath. it's great to have the team together and great to have you on the set with us today. tell us about this initiative. the name is very in sync with our 50 over 50 list, which is women are limitless. how will it work? >> it's an inflection point for the organization and for women in america right now. i think the four of us would agree about that. you certainly cited some of the statistics that wells fargo came out with in their report in 2024 about women-owned businesses. the data is there. since 2007, the women-owned businesses have started up five times the national rate.

yet, one dollar out of 23 is going to entrepreneurship. the organization is saying all entrepreneurs, regardless of gender or race or income, have the right to access to fair capital and opportunity for economic mobility. we're at an inflection point as an organization. we've given out $4 billion of loan capital to date. we hit that milestone in february to nearly 200,000 women entrepreneurs in 40 locations around the country. by 2023 we want to reach 750,000 women entrepreneurs. before the pandemic we were recruiting about 900 women entrepreneurs a month. in spite of all that's happened

since 2020 and high inconsumersr entrepreneurship is greater. >> that is some intense recruitment. >> as a leader in the micro finance space for the past 15 years, i was going to ask you what tangible impact you've seen on women in your program. >> it was amazing. there was skepticism is whether micro financing would work in the united states, but we see it every day. the repayment is 99.9% plus. we have seen tangible increase in revenue, in credit scores, in savings and in reduction in material hardship. >> i remember traveling in the

'90s talking to women in south asia who received micro finance loans. you share the story of your chinese grandmother who received a loan to open a hair salon and how that changed your family. share how that's impacted your outlook. >> it's such a full circle thing in life. my dad is the son of two immigrants. my grandfather worked on the railroad for years to be able to buy a pair of shoes. but it was my grandmother who got an informal loan and started a hair business. every time i go into a hair salon today i do think about her and her entrepreneurial spirit. my father went to m.i.t. and two generations later i'm the example. >> i love that. >> we were so honored to have

you as a judge on our first ever 50 over 50 list. we are gearing up for the fourth annual iteration of this list which showcases that success has no age limit. what makes this list so special? and also what are the judges looking for to determine this list? >> it was an extraordinary experience to be a judge and very, very difficult, because the number of women, to narrow it down to 50 was extraordinarily difficult. i remember when i became a ceo there were so few women, but when you looked at the founders, the ceos, the women breaking through in politics, sports, news, it's extraordinary. it was difficult to say the least to get it down to 50, but also incredibly inspirational. >> you had your own pivot. we talked about your career at avon. you have worked in beauty and

retail, and now you lead grameen. what have you learned from these pivots? >> it's an extraordinary opportunity to just move forward and take all the experiences you've had and be able to do something that really can hopefully leave a legacy for other women. i spent a lot of time at avon working with women, seeing the power of women entrepreneurs. so to be able here in 2024 to make sure this issue of equity and inclusion, that we all do something about it. >> to close, i have two yes/no questions for you. yes or no, did you ever imagine your career after 50 when you were a much younger woman? >> no. >> and can you imagine retirement? >> no. >> exactly. thank you very much. i told you they'd be easy. huma abedin and maggie, of

course, thank you very much. what a great conversation. we urge you to consider nominating a woman. i suggest you nominate yourself and know your value for our fourth annual 50 over 50 u.s. list. nominations are open now. you can get the information and details at forbes.com or knowyourvalue.com. thanks very much, guys. still ahead on "morning joe," one of our next guests is leading the charge on capitol hill to free a russian opposition figure jailed by vladimir putin. senator ben carden explains straight ahead on "morning joe." straight aheadn o"morning joe."

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we found out today that in an attempt to get relevant files from a former district attorney, trump's lawyers subpoenaed the wrong jeremy rosenberg. two jeremy rosenbergs in new york city?

what are the odds? and i'm being told, very good. thank you. that's my researcher jeremy rosenberg, no relation. now, after giving the season to the wrong rosenberg, he wrote to the attorney saying, i don't have any files for you and explained that he tried calling to explain, but the phone number trump's lawyers provided was disconnected. if you're calling trump's lawyers, you have to dial the country code for russia first. [ laughter ] welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's time to wake up, l.a. it's 6:00 on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. joining us reverend al sharpton.

john heilemann is here. nice to see you in person. >> nice to see you too. >> i don't think you actually feel that way. >> i do feel that way. overjoyed. >> katty kay is with us. and chief white house correspondent for the "new york times" peter baker joins us as well. >> can you believe this mess in arizona? this mess that the republicans have foisted upon themselves? >> what's surprising about it? >> it is really incredible that you have a law that was like going back to 1864, before abraham lincoln was reelected. almost total ban, rape and incest, no exceptions. it just keeps getting worse for women in america and politically

worse for donald trump. he knows how much trouble he's in. >> he does. you think about what this is the result of. these are judges, republican-appointed judges in a lot of these states. it is the case that this is the result of the republican pro-life anti-abortion -- >> you look in the senate. republicans in the senate killed a chance to actually ensure that ivf was safe nationwide. they killed that chance out in arizona. >> this is the maga revolution. i have people like steve bannon saying we're going to take over state legislatures. they're reaping the whirlwind. >> that's the right phrase.

>> there you go. >> let's break down what happened in arizona and the unbelievable consequences it will have on women across the state. hallie jackson has the latest. >> reporter: in arizona, a scramble this morning -- >> shame on you! >> reporter: state republicans choosing not to vote on an effort to repeal the controversial abortion ban yesterday, met with protests on the house floor. >> hold the vote! >> reporter: it comes after the state's supreme court reinstated an 1864 law banning nearly all abortions, no exceptions for rape or incest, only for the life of the mother. doctors who perform the procedure could face prison time. former president trump says this goes too far. >> i'm sure the governor and everybody else are going to bring it back to reason. >> reporter: a ban this strict is unpopular in arizona and

unpopular nationwide, a political reality mr. trump appears to understand, as he says he would not support a national abortion ban. as president, mr. trump had backed a national abortion ban at 20 weeks, and just last month signalled openness to a ban after 15 weeks. >> i'm thinking in terms of that, and it'll come out to something that's very reasonable. >> reporter: now the former president acknowledging overnight democrats see a political advantage. >> the only issue they think they have is on abortion. now i say the states are handling it, and it's totally killed this issue. >> what do you say to the people of arizona right now who are witnessing a law go in place that dates back to the civil war era? >> elect me. i'm in the 21st century.

>> you remember 2004. >> yes, i do. >> the bush campaign. can't believe now things have moved so quickly on marriage equality over the years, but in 2004 they used one issue swing state by swing state. that was same-sex marriage bans, which actually got their people out to vote. now here we are with another president running for reelection that barely won the first time and they're going to the other side idealogically. we're not just talking about arizona. but you brought up nevada, a state that republicans always think they're going to win and democrats always squeak out. >> people forget how close nevada was in 2020.

>> since nevada and arizona count two ballots a day for three months, we didn't know for a while. >> i don't blame them. >> they're very busy. >> vegas is a big distraction. that's a state the trump people have had in their sights ever since. people overlook it as an important battleground state, but that's a place where we're going to see an abortion initiative on the ballot. florida, a state that like ohio back in 2004, back when those were battleground states, there's a chance that becomes a battleground state now because of this issue. the difference between 2004 is that it was republicans trying to roll back progress and individual rights. in this case, it's democrats who are getting the advantage by trying to restore rights that

have been stripped away by republicans. >> look at this ad right here. one of the strongest guarantees any political candidate can make if you vote for him or her. >> because of donald trump, millions of women lost the fundamental freed to control their own bodies. and now women's lives are in danger because of that. the question is, if donald trump gets back in power, what freedom will you lose next? your body and your decisions belong to you, not the government, not donald trump. i will fight like hell to get your freedom back. i'm joe biden and i approve this message. >> there is just not a stronger line that any politician can ever give and one that a politician in america really couldn't give credibly that joe

biden can give now, which is, i will fight like hell to get your freedom back, a freedom that you had for 50 years that your daughters had, that your mothers had. i will fight to get that freedom back for you. if there's ever been a stronger promise that an american politician has made in my lifetime, i don't know what it is. >> that ad was taylor made to liberate that streak of the american west. it does seem to be a very effective ad. it's unlikely i think arizona has put florida in play, by it could well.

do we have a 10,000 vote majority in 2020? it could easily tip arizona back into the blue column. it's going to come down to four big issues at the moment, abortion, the economy, immigration and donald trump's character. two of those issues play well to joe biden and two issues play well to donald trump. it's going to be a question in november about what is in people's minds in that moment, and what is the thing they are most afraid of in that moment that drives those very few swing voters who haven't made up their minds yet to pull the lever one way or the other? >> freedom of choice important to the biden campaign. the president, by his own admission, is not always comfortable talking about abortion. he has a surrogate that has been really good on this. that's the vice president kamala harris, who heads to arizona tomorrow on this very issue. preview, if you will, how the

biden campaign plans to talk about this issue not just in arizona but to make it a defining one for this campaign. >> president biden does pull ahead of former president trump in terms of issues. economy and immigration, he's not doing very well on those. rather talk about abortion, because that's one that galvanizes voters. the question is whether it galvanizes voters beyond issue referendum. in states where they put referendum on the ballots, they have overwhelmingly won. they're going to have referenda in arizona, which will bring arizona closer to a competitive state. democrats were worried it's slipping away. now this looks like a much more winnable state for joe biden. it's not going to be on the ballot in the rust belt, michigan, pennsylvania.

there's big states in the midwest and pennsylvania that do not have abortion on the ballot and it won't drive out voters in the same way. >> you know, this country has really had a lesson in what the consequences or, to use donald trump's words, punishment, because he believes there should be punishment for any doctor who conducts an abortion or any woman who receives an abortion. one thing i'll say is there's a lot of talk from the campaign that talk about reproductive freedom. this is the right to basic

health care. this is for women having problems, women who are miscarrying, people who need procedures considered similar to abortions that will not be able to get them. this is basic health care. i think they should drive that point home. i feel the two challenges for the campaign will be this one, making sure they get the message out, and also the economy, which biden has had so many successes. >> on the first part, i think it's important that we expand the issue to where it really is. that is, it is about health

care. it's not about somebody irresponsibly getting pregnant and wants to abort a child because they don't want their parents to know. it's health care. i think the more they understand that people understand what's going on here and even fundamentalists. i have a lot of fundamentalists in my organization that once they hear alexis mcgill johnson talking, they say this is not just about somebody doing something wrong. this is about actual health care. >> i'm so glad you brought that up, because i wanted to bring up the fact that you had too many people that political observers just have always thought that black americans and hispanic americans were a monolith, and if you got reverend al and the black churches and got everybody lined up -- it's not that

simple. i tried to explain to some friends that a lot of black voters are conservative with a small "c." they're conservative on social issues. hispanics are more conservative on social issues than democrats have always thought they are. black voters always more conservative on social issues than democratic party bosses always thought they were. this is a clarifying moment. this is a moment that, as you just said, donald trump, the maga extremists, they actually push those conservative black voters more comfortably toward joe biden, more comfortably toward democrats, because now it's much more clear cut. >> you are absolutely right. a lot of democrats and so-called liberals assume everybody thinks

the same way in our community. you say there are a lot of blacks and latinos that are conservative with a small "c." i'd say many of them with a large "c." i remember 2004 when i was running in the presidential primary and came out for same-sex marriage. i had people on my board of directors say, well, you know you can't preach in my church now. >> i remind people in 2008 on barack obama's historic night, he of course swept california, but black voters and hispanic voters helped kill marriage equality on that ballot initiative as well. it's never as clear cut as progressives think. >> once you make it a health care issue and you're not just talking about somebody doing something wrong, in their

judgment, once you deal with the issue, then you get a broader base. you can't go and tell people, oh, you know inflation is going to be steady even though it looks like it's rising. you've got to tell people, look, i know you're going through a rough time, but we've began to come back. it's like taking medicine and the doctor telling you it's going to take four or five hours before your headache goes. you can't tell me my head is not hurting now. you can tell me i took the medicine and in five hours i'll be better. that's what joe biden has to say. i had to turn around disaster. >> but better days are ahead. >> house speaker mike johnson will travel to mar-a-lago tomorrow, where he is expected to deliver remarks alongside former president trump. speaker johnson says he will

focus on election integrity as well as free and fair elections. >> wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. >> i know. >> peter baker, can we keep that guy's face up? donald trump is going to talk to that guy about election integrity when that guy was the guy that liz cheney said was running around with paxton's sign-up list to support paxton's crazy conspiracy theories out of texas on the election? >> yeah. >> leading question. thank you, you can stand down. >> when trump talks about election integrity, what he means is, i win, you lose. it's not about counting the votes. he's said consistently if any result comes up other than his victory, he will say it is

rigged. doesn't matter if his own team tells him the election was fairly fought and lost, he will never admit that. with election integrity they're saying believe trump, not all the judges, governors and his own vice president of the united states who say the election was lost in 2020. it's a twist on language, which we have done consistently. what is more interesting about mike johnson's visit is the timing of it at this very moment when trump is trying to dictate what's happening in the house. just yesterday he told house conservatives to block a warrantless surveillance bill. that was huge defeat for a house speaker to be embarrassed like

that. to have the two stand next to each other is a very interesting moment. trump people are angry about marjorie taylor greene for raising the prospect again of another meltdown. >> thank you. mike johnson and donald trump making joint statements on election integrity kind of makes me think about the big lie. your book on the big lie is coming out in paperback may 7th. [indiscernible] >> at this point the big lie would need to be updated with new chapters every day.

the original book came out on the eve of the midterms in 2022 and charted how donald trump had managed to maintain his grip and was returning to power in the party even after january 6th and leaving office. the paperback version has new material which traces how trump's grip has only tightened. peter is right, the timing of this meeting is striking. johnson should expect to get marching orders from trump as to how to conduct himself in the house. johnson should take a lesson from mike mccarthy. trump didn't save him. trump is going to look out for himself. johnson is not going to be someone he's going to necessarily save even as he

continues to push the big lie going forward. >> i think what really gets to me is that we're normalizing the present speaker of the house going to see a man facing 88 indictments and four trials like this is normal. one trial starts in new york monday. the speaker of the house, third in line to the presidency, is going to see a guy out on parole who has to be in criminal court monday morning. and we expect our children to grow up in the same kind of world of a respectful government that we did. the bar has been lowered so that we don't even know what the bar is. when the speaker of the house has to kiss the liar who has court dates from now until the

end of the year, and the speaker is going to prostrate before him. this is sad. >> it is sad. you have the president, the vice president and the speaker. that speaker is in line with vladimir putin and donald trump. going down to mar-a-lago didn't help kevin mccarthy. you talk to kevin mccarthy. why does he say he's no longer in power? >> you're mike johnson. you've got to keep the majority, right? the guy wanted to try to reauthorize fisa with some reforms. trump killed that. he had a security package that trump reached in and killed. we're talking again about let's get rid of obamacare.

trump is poison to republicans' efforts to keep control of the house in november with their narrow margin. today the speaker of the house is thwarting attempts to govern effectively and get some things done that republicans are for. mike johnson goes down to mar-a-lago to kiss the ring, whatever he's going to be kissing down there, of the guy who's poisoning him as we speak. he's going to lose the house for johnson. he's not going to be speaker six months from now if this continues. >> there's an expression in sports clubhouse poison. we've been trying to warn republicans for years now. this guy loses elections.

you look at abortion. that's trump. look at obamacare, getting more popular by the year. donald trump still promises he's going to get rid of it. you look at ukraine. donald trump wants to destroy ukraine. >> he's doing that right now. >> go down the list of things. he picks the most extreme unpopular positions. look at the border bill. how many americans are dying of fentanyl between now and january '25 because donald trump said kill the bill that's going to keep fentanyl out of this country. donald trump said kill the bill that is going to keep illegal immigrants out of this country. >> with trump at the helm and looking out only for himself, republicans are on the losing side of elections and issues. maybe this time the republican

senate can break free of some of trump's influence. but the house is certainly beholden to him. with people quitting and giving up important leadership posts within the conference because they can't deal with the chaos. they don't want to take orders from marjorie taylor greene. coming up next, it's been two years since russian opposition figure vladimir was imprisoned by vladimir putin. senator ben carden joins us next on his efforts to make sure the journalist is not forgotten. su journalist is not forgotten. with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be. so i hired body doubles. 30,000 followers tina in a boutique hotel. or 30,000 steps tina in a mountain cabin.

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you're watching vladimir

putin use the powerful soviet-style oppression machine. the regime targets the most courageous, the most principled, those russians who risk their freedom and very often their lives to show you that russia could be different. >> that was the wife of russian opposition activist and journalist vladimir kara-murza. he has spent the last two years behind bars in russia after he was convicted of treason last year for denouncing the war in ukraine. he's currently serving a 25-year sentence. his wife, who lives in the u.s. with their three children, joins several members of congress on capitol hill tuesday pleading for russia to free her husband. lawmakers joined her in demanding kara-murza's release.

joining us is senator ben cardin of maryland. he was at that tuesday meeting alongside kara-murza's wife. katty kay has the first question for you. >> thank you for joining us. she sounds like julia navalny. she told all of you she worried that her husband's life is in danger. after what happened to navalny, that clearly is something we can't take lightly. you said he will never be forgotten. but what practically can the united states do in the case of kara-murza who spoke out for ukraine and has been convicted on charges treason? >> i think his life is at risk. putin tried twice to poison

kara-murza. we know what happened to mr. navalny in prison. the fate was sealed because they dared to disagree with the putin regime. so yes, we are very concerned about mr. kara-murza's health. that's why we put a spotlight on the fact that he is being held wrongly. we would like to see him designated as an unlawfully detained person in our own state department to give him help and visibility globally for his release. we are dedicated to doing everything we can to get him home safely. they won't let anyone communicate with him, including his family and lawyers. we had a letter writing campaign. i sent him a letter saying i want him back home and when he's back home, we're going to give

him better food than he's getting in the russian prison. we're not going to forget him. we're going to do everything we can to bring him home safely. >> what is the everything you can do? america can't even get evan gershkovich out. he's been in jail for a year now. it's revealing a sort of powerlessness in the united states. is there more america could do in actual practical terms? >> we're not going to forget him. we're going to make sure the international community knows what mr. putin has done so he is not forgotten. there are sanctions that have been imposed and there are additional sanctions we can impose on russia. this is not against the russian people. this is against mr. putin and his government. then there are talks that take place. we're not naive.

we know certain discussions are taking place in regards to the u.k. after all, mr. kara-murza is a dual citizen of russia and the u.k. >> senator, as you deal with trying to get the release of kara-murza, how does the fact that it seems like some of your colleagues on the republican side of the house seem to be trying to at best be easy on putin, easy on russia when it comes to ukraine funding and other issues and clearly the presumptive nominee of their party is all but pro-putin. how does that factor in to what you're trying to do to free this unjustifiably held prisoner? >> mr. putin is not only at war

against his own people for disagreeing with his policies, he's at war with other countries for trying to interfere with their sovereignty. republicans need to be on the right side of history here, and right now they're not. it really makes us extremely vulnerable. if we lose in ukraine, mr. putin is not going to stop with ukraine. what we're talking about now is helping a country through our resources rather than having to send our men and women to fight on foreign soil. the republicans need to understand how serious this is and how wrong they are to hold up that ukraine aid. it's needed now and there's no excuse. >> if that aid doesn't come soon, russia will soon have a 10-1 advantage in terms of

military equipment and fire power. closer to home, the francis scott key bridge collapsed just a few weeks ago. you're introducing a bill to pay for it. what kind of pushback are you getting from republicans? because in those initial days after the tragic accident, there were some from red states who said, hey, why is this our problem? >> thank you for bringing up the baltimore bridge. it was extremely traumatic for our community. we lost six lives. our port is still closed. of course, the bridge needs to be replaced. i will be introducing legislation today, bipartisan legislation to authorize the replacement of the bridge, the cost of replacement at 100% federal share. that's what we've done in the past. it's a pretty simple bill. we make it clear that any of the

recoveries in regards to individuals or insurance will go to reimburse the federal taxpayers, but we don't want that to delay the work in getting the bridge replaced. >> senator ben cardin of maryland, thank you very much for coming on. coming up, he's opened for the who and produced albums from willie nelson to spinal tap and is responsible for some of the film's most iconic soundtracks. along the way he's picked up 13 grammys, two emmys, an oscar. t-bone burnett joins us to talk about his career and his first solo album in nearly 20 years. that's next on "morning joe." ♪♪

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burnett the first of his 13 grammy awards. you have a lot of grammys. >> where do you put those? >> when i was living in los angeles, i put them in a closet. >> all together on a shelf? >> when i move to nashville, people get a kick out of it. >> anyhow, the grammys are for producing unforgettable movie soundtracks and collaborating with some of the world's biggest artists. he earned an oscar for his work on the 2009 film "crazy heart." now t bone is putting himself front and center with his first traditional solo album since 2006. it's called "the other side," and it marks a return to his roots as a singer and songwriter from ft. worth, texas.

the prolific music producer and writer t bone burnett joins us now. is this about a love story? >> i always knew the goal of art is to create conscience. i was reading a couple years ago that some shocking number of number one songs had the word "you" in the title. the beatles first songs were "love me do" where the you is implied, "from me to you," "she loves you" and "i want to hold your hand." now we have politicians going around using that same technique. it's a very powerful technique. i am your retribution. >> here we go. >> it's a little harder to dance to that. i give it a 43.

[indiscernible] >> very hard to dance to, but good to carry a tiki torch to. this is your first album of your stuff in quite a while. i would guess you didn't stop writing songs. what made you stop and go it's time to get from behind the board and get out front? >> i got through that period. really i've spent my whole life writing about this dystopia we're in now. i realized that i had to find a way through it. i had a dream when i was a kid that these men in black were cutting off our hands and putting electronic hands to be our control mechanism.

it was a horrifying nightmare i had as a recurring nightmare. >> that's quite a nightmare. >> go ahead. >> 15 years ago i was in a coffee shop and everyone in the coffee shop was looking at their phone. i realized they didn't have to cut our hands off. they just put it in our hands. i realized i had to wrap up my work in this dystopia. i realized that the way through it is through hearing tone, that underneath everything is tone. it just led me into a whole new phase in my life where, yeah, i think it is a love story. >> you talk about tone. it's so interesting when i first met mika, she told me that the success in tv didn't come by how

you looked on tv, but by how you sounded. ronald reagan's greatness as a communicator wasn't his looks, it was that voice. >> she's a wise woman. you got this new album out. you have five songs. women are having a moment in every genre of music. people looked at the grammys and said, wow, in every genre, women are doing the most interesting work. you met her at joni mitchell's house. >> i was at joni's house. there were two young girls over on the wall. they made this sound i'd never

heard before. it's an otherworldly sound, beautiful sound. so when i was doing this record, i realized i wanted some harmony. i didn't want background singers. i wanted to bring in some harmony. they came in and really orchestrated about half the record. they don't sing backgrounds. they make up syllables and sounds. their blend creates a resonance i've never heard before. >> hey, i was over at so when i was doing this record, i realized i wanted some harmony. i didn't want background singers, i wanted to bring in some harmony, and they came in and really orchestrated about half the record. they make -- they don't sing

backgrounds. they make up syllables and they make up sounds. their blend creates a resonance i've never heard before. >> talk about tone. i was over at skroe joni mitchell's house. >> solid name drop. >> both albums just three weeks' time, walk us through that process. how did that happen? >> say that -- >> three weeks' time you wrote the album, how did you do that? >> when i got out of , when i el these songs were rushing in about reaching people's dreams instead of reaching people's consciousnesses. >> wow. >> to get that into unconscious place. when a song writer uses the word you, he may be writing about himself. he may be speaking about a specific person. he may be speaking about the audience in general. he may be speaking about his dog, and one person he's not speaking about is the person in the audience who's hearing it, and the person in the audience who's hearing it knows that nevertheless when he hears you, he says this is the way i feel or do i feel this way or is this about me, so there's a real responsibility in that, and i felt in my conscience, i felt a responsibility to love the audience in a way i really hadn't before. >> does that come from inside of you? is it something inside that you always had there and you wanted to express it? like you talk about seeing the background. i've been around artists growing

up, i was like james brown's son, and a lot of stuff i'd see him do in studio was something he had dreamed up maybe a year or two before and just let it out and nobody knew what it was but him until it happened. >> that's part of it, and part of it is inspiration. i feel like all these songs just descended on me. so you know, i don't want to take credit for inspiration, but yeah, there's also a long, you know, i've got 60 years of experience at this point that all feeds into the creative process. >> wow. the new album "the other side" is out april 19th and is available for preorder now. t-bone burnett, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. it's great to see you. >> great to see you. >> thank you for your latest creation. >> hope to see you soon. coming up, after a bit of bad weather, the world's top golfers are preparing to tee off in today's first round of the 88th masters about 40 minutes from now.

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welcome back. the annual par 3 contest ahead of this year's masters was held yesterday, and it was dakota watson -- >> come on. >> -- who stole the show. >> come on. >> the 9-year-old drained three putts at augusta national while caddying for her dad, two-time masters champion bubba watson. take a look. >> everything, everything, phenomenal year from tee to

green. >> the watson family. >> a terrific putting stroke. >> oh, my goodness. >> barely tap it. dakota watson who's already holed countless feet of putts today. [ cheers and applause ] have you changed your mind? >> come on. >> i like her celebration. >> forget dakota watson, that second putt was tom watson. >> seriously. tom wason at the pga, right? >> how did she do that? >> that was a long way. >> pensacola zone bubba. >> we like bubba. >> amazing. >> i couldn't make a putt like

that in a million putts. >> i usually have to try to get it through the windmill. >> wrap my putter around the tree. >> so mika, what are you doing after this show? >> yeah, really. >> i'm going to an event with the national action network -- >> going to an -- >> you're being elevated. >> i'm so excited. >> this is an honor. >> this is going to be so nice. reverend al, thank you so much. >> you are the event. women in national action network are honoring you. they're saying -- and i'm preempting what they're going to say at the luncheon, you have put the value of women on a global stage in a way that embraces all women. you're real careful that you get everybody. this is a big day for us, and the run up to the luncheon. >> yeah, yeah. >> i'll say the opening act, is joe scarborough, and i will do a fireside chat on what's going on in america today and how we bring people together, how we've come together.

we've got a lot going on. >> he's going to talk about how he has forgiven 70 times 7 and he still talks to me. and katty kay, by the way, next week we're going to be throwing a banquet in your honor. final thoughts. >> i'm heading to chicago because my daughter is defending her astro physics ph.d. thesis. >> there's a woman who knows her value. >> there's a woman who knows her value, yeah. so i'm a proud mommy tomorrow. >> what's the line -- >> mic drop. >> -- from doc hollywood? i was thinking about being an astro physicist, except i'm not that good in science. >> it scares me. that's what i'll have bad dreams about tonight, having to -- >> we're going to -- that does it for us this morning. >> what are we going to do? >> i'm trying to decide if we're going to have heilemann back tomorrow. >> of course we are. everybody come back tomorrow. >> it's a lot.