hi, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. the exaggerated fame and status was today reduced to the role of basically spectator as his lawyers and prosecutors picked out the 12 people who will ultimately determine whiz legal fate. inside of the courtroom we saw once again what looked like a diminished donald trump subject to the rules of this judge in this courtroom. just outside of the courthouse, it was a different story. trump lashed out. this morning he called the trial itself a disgrace and argued that all he was indicted was for paying a lawyer and it was just a quote, legal expense. it is a story that collapsed on live tv like a house of cards

years ago thanks to rudy giuliani. watch. >> having something it do with paying some stormy daniels woman $130,000, which is going to turn out to be perfectly legal. that money was not campaign money. sorry, i'm giving you a fact now that you don't know. it is not campaign money. no campaign finance violation. so -- >> they funneled it through a law firm. >> funneled through a law firm and the president repaid it. >> oh, i didn't know that. he did? >> yeah. >> and funneling, is a word associated with legal financial schemes, in this case, a hush money payment according to rudy giuliani funneled through his lawyer with the intent to influence the 2016 election. so, back in 2018, when the fakes were examined, a federal judge ruled this about the fakes. quote, cohen committed two campaign finance crimes on the eve of 2016 presidential

election with the intent to influence the outcome of that election. he, michael cohen, made or facilitated payments to silence two women who threatened to go public with details of extramarital affairs and mr. cohen admitted that he did so in coordination with and, here is an important part, at the direction of individual one. payments were all part of a bigger scheme hatched by individual one, donald trump, and michael cohen. "new york times" reports this today, in a development that will bolster their case, prosecutors on monday secured permission from the judge to admit evidence connected to trump's overall political strategy in 2016. much of it bears the former president's imprint. false denial and coordination with a tabloid publisher and more. the manhattan district attorney's office obtained permission from the judge to introduce evidence relating to a 2015 meeting among trump, mr. pecker, and trump's former fixer

michael cohen. a prosecutor, joshua stein said on monday that the three men had, quote, conspired to influence the 2016 election. here is how it was explained by "new york times" reporter jim rootenberg in the documentary series the fourthest tate. >> it is the summer of the campaign and just another day at the office, a playboy model has emerged who is going to allege an affair with the president several months after the birth of his child with melania. what are you doing? michael cohen and inquirer does a catch and kill where they buy her story and for a deal in $150,000, she will not talk about the affair during the campaign and this is what it means to be donald trump's fixer. >> a scheme to interfere with the 2016 election now the

foundation of the first ever criminal trial of an american ex-president is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. with me at the table, sue craig is back. tristan smell is also here, from new york state where he led the investigation and prosecution of trump university. also the author of "taking down trump," 12 rules of taking down donald trump. and also joining us, former rnc chairman and co host of the weekend, the only live interview with michael cohen this week, michael steele. and from "the new york times," jeremy peters is here, very familiar with all of that reporting that we've been discussing. sue craig, i want to start with you. and that tantalizing page full of notes. >> well i was going to say, i almost called you to say that i can't come up because the end of day was -- it was fascinating and they ended up -- i had to look at my phone, they have six

jurors. but the morning starting out like most jury selections that i've seen. the jurors that didn't leave, that half of them just said they couldn't be fair. >> 50, right. >> and they just walked out and they weren't asked any question and it could have been obligations or they couldn't be fair. so we were left with about 50. and notably several had five or six or around that number came in today and said overnight they realized they couldn't be fair and some of them actually took us through the whole questionnaire before they got to that point so that wasted some time. but everybody who was through the questionnaire, we got a sense of who these people are in a surface level. we have a lot of "new york times" readers, a lot of dog owners. an interesting group of people. there was some lawyers. but when you got to the questions of could they be fair, all of thex sort of said they could. they could set aside the biases. they're not asked if their

democrats but could you tell. so this went through the morning section. and then we went on a lunch break. we had some people that survived all of that and then during the lunch break, the lawyers, it was notable for this conversation, it was trump's team and they went and had names of the jurors and they scrubbed them over the lunch hour and as soon as we got back, todd blanche, the lawyer for trump, he came in and it was fairly explosive and said that he had found very -- his exact words were incriminating evidence against several of them. so that started a whole thing. >> what does that mean. they're not on trial. >> well that is -- the judge reminded them of that. but they had things on social media posts that donald trump and his lawyers found troubling. so the first one -- >> in the category of bias. >> yeah. because you are wondering what are they posting and will it go into whether or not they could be fair. so they asked about the first

one, juror number one, so the first one. and they bring up some social media posts to the judge. the judge wants to see them. they've screen shotted it. the judge was looking at them and is confused and said did you give me the right piece of paper. he didn't understand what he was looking at. so there was some questions between that and he ended up wanting to see, they were screen shots of videos and one of videos happened to be the juror, juror number one had taken a video at a distance of what looked like a celebration in the streets of new york for when trump lost in 2020. i think that was it. and it showed that she was biased and there was some language that suggested she might have a buy as. so she was called in and interviewed by the judge and she said she happened to take the video when she was on the upper west side and she was outside parking her car and there was people celebrating in the distance and she thought it was a new york most and she posted it. i love that it involved

alternate side parking in new york. it all comes down to that in new york. so, she -- so she was interviewed and left the room and then we didn't have the cameras on so we didn't have a visual of donald trump at this point from the overflow room that i sit in. we have closed circuit tv. but the judge had some back and forth between the lawyers and then the judge actually admonished the former president because he was huffing and puffing and gesturing towards the juror. he said it was -- the judge said it was completely inappropriate and i won't tolerate and have any jurors intimidating in this courtroom and his lawyer had to go speak to him. so that was a moment. and then the judge found in this case, in this juror that this juror could continue. and it wasn't immediately pulled but another juror had a social media post about the trial, the travel ban and it said lock him up. so they went through one by one on these and they had a lot of problematic posts but they still

at the end of today and it is still going on, but they still so far had six jurors seated which i thought was remarkable when i ran out to get here. >> is trump's legal team googling the name of jurors in real time from their phones or is it happening at the trump campaign. where are they vetting potential jurors? >> they were given the names of the jurors yesterday. they were told they couldn't make images of the names of the jurors and they couldn't copy them in any way. but they're allowed to have them and i don't know if they have a jury consultant there. they might. that is typical. but they're doing this research kind of realtime. >> if they're taking pictures of them and screen shooting it and they have the names and they could take the names home. >> if they could remember them. it is definitely a concern and i think the jurors it is probably on their mind. we would like to think people act in good faith but we've seen

otherwise with this individual. >> and then the social media post, is that not a question on the questionnaire? >> no, it is not. and -- >> interesting, right? >> the judge was satisfied by this woman's explanation. there was two and one of them it was taken quite far away. and the judge was satisfied with it. and sometimes may see somebody has a bunch of social media posts and it is a spoof account. so you have to ask the jurors need sort of questions. did you post it? and then what is the context around it. but that is what we're going through now. but they came in, would you say, loaded for barrel when they came in for the courtroom after lunch about this. >> why didn't they use one of their strikes on her? >> i'm not sure -- i'm even sure if they did or not. they moved on. both sides have some strikes

left. but we're moving quite quickly. you never know you have a juror that could-t could be done by friday. but it is moving at a clip but tomorrow morning we go back into another hundred jurors and the judge will spend half an hour reading them the preamble about the case and do you recognize any of the witnesses and then they have to go through and ask anybody this they want to leave and ask about the questionnaire and so it will slow roll until we get to another group of people that they seem fairly satisfied with. >> and to your point, that was the process yesterday. that got fixed by day two. so in terms of pacing, it could be another -- i think it is thursday. >> that is right. >> they could be done by friday or monday. that is faster than some people thought it might be. >> much faster. >> if this keep this is pace. >> but this is everybody is saying this is much faster than we thought.

>> is there anything to see about the pace of accepting jurors? >> no, i don't think -- this is sort of, it takes time. it is going to take the time that it takes. i think you're going to see more sparring about the jurors. as they run out of preemptive, they're going to run out of the ability to knock people out. so then that will move faster after that. >> tell me what you make, tristan, having sort of been in the seat of some of these prosecutors before. what is your sort of analysis of donald trump over the last two days in court? >> you know, i think that the folks that have been joking online that maybe the best thing that trump could do for his team is to fall asleep. and if he looked like he did yesterday, i would agree with that. i think the less he does, the better. napping is a great way for him to get through this. for him to start getting into huffy puffy, big bad wolf mode, with the jurors is going to inch

him closer and closer to some serious consequences. there is still just baby stepping this along. but very fact that it is like, oh, okay, the penalty is $1,000, oh, that is really going to deter him. come on. but the more that he does things like that, the worse it is going to be. if i'm his team, i'm sitting there, oh, god, how could we get him through this without him making a total mess of everything. but why is he there, he's there because he wants to show that he's being persecuted and it is a way for him to raise money off his base and that is why he comes to all of the trials. there is no good reason for him to be at most of these. >> does he have to be at this one. >> he has to be at some. he was there for the civil trial and for e. jean carroll and he doesn't need to be there for every moment and he comes because he trying to raise money off of it. >> he has to be there and the judge warned him the other day if he fails to aer poo, a

warrant will be issued for his arrest and if he disrupted the proceedings, he could be ejected and go to jail. >> so he has to be there for some of these. there are others where he put himself in peril where he didn't need to. we're going to of to see when he needs to be there for this thing and i'm just thinking as you're his team, you're just like every minute that he's in there is a moment where something could go wrong. >> yesterday there was an issue where his lawyer said that he wanted to participate in all bench -- he wants to go up and that caused a problem because when he goes up, the secret service has to go up. and then they agreed that one secret service person could go up and i get into court and there is something going on at the bench and donald trump's not there. i was like what is going on. and after this happened twice, the judge said now he has -- he's waived his right to go up. so it is just every day, it is

something. >> i want to delve into covering the other fireworks in court around the evidence that will be permitted. and jeremy, this gets to a incredible body of reporting largely from "new york times" reporters, sue and yourself and jim rootenberg about the catch and kill scheme, which was never in dispute. a federal judge co-signed all of the facts around the sentencing of michael cohen in 2018. donald trump was described as individual one, i think over 20 times. it was disputed inside of main doj and bill barr and his team tried to minimize the mentions of individual one and i think there was some back and forth about how much his role will be described but at the end of day, even with bill barr, donald trump is an unindicted co-conspirator and it appears many of the fakes could be admitted in this trial.

>> right, nicolle. and through that and alvin bragg's indictment, we know a awful lot about the catch and kill scheme at the "national enquirer." and this wouldn't be the first time that the nationalin inquirer has put its finger on scale. in 2008 they broke the story about john edwards and his affair and the child out of wedlock that he had. and then the case of donald trump, of course this is one other way that we see donald trump having a very transactional and symbiotic relationship with media that is very favorable to him. this is, i think, most corrupt example of that. but you have, examples like inquirer printing stories that ted cruz's father was involved in the kennedy assassination and trump talks about it. and then you have thein inquirer

launching what was described in a recent magazine piece about the inquirer's role in 2016 of as a sustained campaign to discredit trump's political opponents. and most especially hillary clinton. and the inquirer printed doctored photos and said she had six months to live and she was on the campaign trail was because cruel bill clinton was making her so do. you can't make this up. but inquirier plays a big role in those who wrote the office and just this silly tabloid farce, it does have occasionally measurable impact on presidential politics and this trial i think is really bringing that to light. >> i mean, i may be dating myself but i saw the "national enquirer" every time my mom went to check out of the grocery store.

it is usually visible. michael steele, you have michael cohen on this weekend, the only live interview with michael cohen before the trial. congratulations on that. i want to show you, because i think in -- and i know we deal with the facts on earth one and there is not a lot of debate among those of us living here. but the facts are so well established. they're co-signed by a federal judge. doj putted their signature on it in the form of michael cohen and he testified about trump's role in overseeing the conspiracy to catch and kill stories using the "national enquirer" and michael cohen was the cutout. let me show you that testimony. >> in 2016, prior to the election, i was contacted by keith davidson, who is the attorney or was the attorney for mostly sunny clifford, for stormy daniels. and after several rounds of

conversation with him about purchasing her life rights for $130,000, what i did each and every time is go straight into mr. trump's office and discuss the issue with him. when it was ultimately determined that this was days before the election that perfect -- that mr. trump was going to pay the $130,000, in the office with me was allen weisselberg, the chief financial officer of the trump organization. he acknowledged to allen that he was going to pay the $130,000 and that allen and i should go back to his office and figure out how to do it. >> now, michael, there are tapes of that as well. we played some of them in the walk up to the beginning of the trial. but the facts and it is fascinating to see what sort of defense trump mounts.

>> well, i think that the defense, and this is something that michael talked about on our show this weekend, is the idea that the effort to discredit, the effort to level up the fak that he had lied, but who did he lie for? he lied for donald trump. he didn't lie to protect himself. he lied to cover for trump. and then got caught and then paid the price for that. and went to jail for that. and i think that, that is the hook that trump and his team want this jury to be mindful of, at every stage of this process. but especially when cohen himself testifies. but judge merchan and others have already cleared the decks, if you will, saying, yeah, but what he's saying about this is true. it is credible. and that is enough to get in

front of the jury as well. and that is -- that is the sort of ying and yang i think you're going to see play out, particularly with stormy daniels and michael cohen's testimony. because it is damning. they were the direct actors who acted on behalf of the man. receive the money to keep the mouth shut, to keep quiet. pay the money to keep the mouth shut. and at the center was one person, donald trump. so how else would they know, why else would they do what they have done. michael cohen is not going to go out and take out a $130,000 mortgage on his home if he ain't getting the money back. if he wasn't assured that he would get repaid. if he wasn't assured what the money was needed for, right. he had no interest otherwise to go out and pay for stormy daniels to keep quiet for his boss. his boss wanted that to happen. so these are the story lines and

the narratives that will hit hard along with a lot of other corroborating evidence and that is the other piece that donald trump is trying to mitigate against. because even though they know, what all of that evident is, because they've been given it. they know how damning it is and how damning it is when it is layered into the narrative the prosecution is going to play out. >> yeah, i mean, i've been covering michael cohen now for years and the bottom line, i am the only person here picked for juries twice, but the story that a jury will hear will be all sorts of maligning the credibility of michael cohen i'm sure from trump's team but at the end of day, michael cohen didn't have an affair with stormy daniels, full stop. he went to jail even as a juror, if i may say so as a two-time juror, even a juror could figure out that there is something wrong with that. i have a million questions for

all of you. i see sue pulling out more from her notebook. we'll hear from a dismissed juror telling the press what it was like to see donald trump in there. a former figure from television, former guy who sat at the resolute desk in the white house now sitting at defense table mumbling in some instances as a criminal defendant. and later in the broadcast, a hearing at the united states supreme court, that could have major implications for hundreds of january 6 rioters and for the one man who summoned them that day. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. e.

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suddenly people are reaching out to again offering me money. large amounts of money. was i tempted? yes. i struggle with it and then i get call. i think i have the best deal for you. >> from your lawyer. >> yeah. >> was it hush money, to stay silent? >> yes. the story was coming out again, and i was concerned for my family and their safety. >> i think some people watching this are going to doubt that you entered into this negotiation because you feared for your safety, they're going to think that you saw an opportunity. >> i think the fact that i didn't even negotiate, i just quickly said yes to this very strict contract and what most people will agree with me extremely low number is all of the proof i need. >> we're back with susan and craig and justin and jeremy and

peter. and the "national enquirer" endorsed for the first time ever in the 2016, the first endorsement of a presidential candidate ever was trump. >> i loved here jeremy dig into that. because i think the "national enquirer" could be much more important than we thought. because there was an important ruling on why yesterday which is that donald trump and david pecker's and the relationship, there will be a lot more allowed into relationship about it. these two men have been friends toer years and there is allegations that donald trump planted stories with the "national enquirer" that they were working hand in hand. you saw it during the election. there were stories about ted cruz involved in the assassination of jfk and he was having affairs and there was five secret mistresses on the cover and stories about markka rubio and ben carson, stories

about pretty much everybody. hillary clinton. and so that relationship at large, not just what ami's involvement is with stormy daniels, karen mcdougal, and george stein, one of the attorneys for the manhattan d.a. yesterday in court when he was talking about it, he said that there was evidence that there was a deal struck between ami and the defendant to put their thumb on the scale to control the flow of information that would reach the electorate. that, of course, including stormy daniels and what at the heart of this and a much larger arrangement, which i think will help set the table for that for the jury. >> you know, jeremy peters, my question for you, hope hicks ended up on the witness list, we don't know who will le called. be her presence in the room all of the time in 2015 and 2016 is a well established fact and

donald trump's penchant for dialing and doing all of this business on the phones so there is to paper trail is a well established fact. what will be admitted an what is now admissible as part of the fabric of this story that will be told to jurors, what is your sense of how much may be new to all of us, even people that have covered this relationship for years. >> i think sue raised a really interesting point. is that one ever things that we learn, nicolle, from the fox dominion trial which we've talked about extensively, is that there is an awful lot in the private communications of individuals, maybe not donald trump directly in this case who was careful never to use email and avoid a paper trail. but the people around him certainly wornt -- weren't that cautious and discrete. and there is a pond ora's box that we have just described.

the way that the inquirer waged a campaign against donald trump's political opponents that we could really kind of have our eyes opened to just how close donald trump's workings were with the inquirer in a way that will probably or could likely make his relationships with fox news pail in comparison. >> and it is interesting and in terms of the story you're telling a jury, the crime is not just being friends with the man from national enquirer, it is the fabrication and tell how about those distinctions will be made. >> it is painting the entire picture of what was going on here that this is in the broader context of efforts to -- to again change the flow of information, put their finger on the scale, put lies and disinformation and misinformation out into the

eco-system. you know, that broader set of things and it comes back to what is going be one of the ultimate questions in this case. there is not really that much debate as to whether or not you have these fake invoices from cohen to trump. that they papered this to look like something else. the question really comes down to, was that falsifying a business record done to cover up or aid another crime? right. because that is what turns this crime from a misdemeanor into a felony. it turns it from a fine into potential prison time. and this is where the rubber lites the road. and you have the trump people, they're main line of defense is going to be, yeah, sure, we did those things but we did it because he didn't want his wife to know about the affair and it was -- who were they hiding it from. melania. the prosecution is coming in

saying, uh-huh, it wasn't melania, it would be fairly easy to do, because my position has been, look, the whole business is something melania didn't really touch. as long as they just issued a regular old check out of the trump organization coffers, melania would have never known. hiding it from her would have been relatively simple. they were hiding it from all of us, the american people. they were trying to control the flow of information that was getting to the public to paint a better picture of trump than was reality. to basically trick us all. it was basically one big con. what they did with the inquirer all through '15 and '16 and what they did there in october right before the election. it was all part of a extreme overall to paint the prettiest picture they could of donald trump and that is what the prosecution is going to need to prove here. >> and i have to sneak in a

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did you know about the $130,000 payment from stormy daniels? >> you have to ask michael cohen. michael is my attorney and you'll have to ask michael. >> did anyone question their decision not to take donald trump live when he talks. he lies easier than he breathes. wrote the checks in the oval office. and there he is telling a lie on air force one. this is what we're entering into. a real phase where we've become numb to and that is the pathological liar that is donald j trump in a criminal trial. >> i appreciate that point. and it is really frustrating because you would think that we would know better. americans have always prided themselves of being so discerning and so cognizant of particularly the behavior that

political actors, they do hold them to a higher standard. and when it came to trump, they didn't game a damn about the standard any more. it was the self-satisfaction of knowing gets me and he sounds like me and, you know, he hangs out with hip-hop artists. donald trump doesn't know hip-hop from hip surgery. for him it is all -- he doesn't know. but he is just like, okay, i'll pretend. and then you get him in the moments and he outright lies. he lies like saying his name. he's just that easy for him. and so the other part of this, which is why going back to what we were just talking about, the people around him, they're contemporaneous notes an the conversations and the things that they do know that happened in the quiet corners of the oval office or other locations for trump. is that trump is involved in every aspect of everything that

goes on around him. so when he's asked did you know x, the truth is, yes. because donald trump doesn't let stuff happen that he doesn't know about. you have testimony after testimony from people in his orbit who have said that. both publicly and privately. so, this is going to be the interesting confrontation in this trial. because it sets up what we're going to see in the subsequent trials. when you get into the raffensperger phone call, when you get into the efforts to overturn what happened on january 6 and the people who were in the room, around the -- the decision not to save his vice president, what that moment was like. people telling you what we all believe, but don't know for sure. but they will tell us, that is where this gets very interesting. one other point on the media real quick, nicolle, donald

trump is always wanted a press to do for him what he claims the mainstream does for democrats, right. he always sets up this straw dog argument about the mainstream media is coming after me and they're there for the democrats, et cetera. he got that. he got that. with this publication. where it published what he wants about his political opponents. that is the world he wants to live in. that is the world that he tried to create in that campaign that followed him into the white house. >> that is such an interesting point, michael steele. and i wanted to ask you, you know, i have this feeling, i'm sure you get this now, especially that you have the weekend show, how you could do this, isn't it bleak? it is. but i feel like we're sitting in a moment where you don't know what will happen the next hour let alone the next day or week. and one of it is we're in the middle of a campaign and joe biden said every new cycle

counts. people think differently about joe biden. people are paying attention. they're watching. and every ruling against ivf or against birth control or against surrogacy, people are consuming the news. but the other thing is what you just said. what donald trump envisions as a secondary term president will be revealed in the relationship he already had with the national enquirer. that is why he got so mad at fox news when they ran their own polls. that is what he would import as a second term president. >> and what was so important that, nicolle, and why that sort of fall off with fox news when fox decided, look, this is getting a little bit closer to the edge than we want to be. guess what, own and news max and other outlets were ready to step up and step in. so donald trump now knows that there is a universe of media

that will lie for him, will be complicit and complaint for him and that is dangerous going into a second term because now you put stories out there with a doj rolling up on somebody, or you know, something else happens, some irs audit occurs, he's going to have people in place that could tell thattory the way he wants it told. and so it is a counter availing force to what the post and the times and other mainstream outlets would be telling. so you now have this point where the public goes well who do i believe? and that is the space he operates the best in. when he raises the question mark in your mind about what is fact and what is truth, he knows he's won the argument before he's even had to make it publicly. >> and that whole scheme will be revealed in a courtroom. we also have some incredible

footage of a juror who will not be on the jury about what it was like to confront donald trump, like wizard of oz behind the curtain. i'll show it to you. we have to sneak in a commercial. we'll be right back. a commercial we'll be right back.

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to see them in person is very jarring. and you get the sense that it is like, oh, this is just another guy. i guess when you're on any jury, you have elements of that person's future in your hands. so whether it was trump or whether it was some stranger off the street in manhattan who i had never heard of before, if you commit to sitting on the jury, you could change that person's life forever. >> so that was karen mcgee. she is one of the many potential jurors who have been excused or dismissed from the high-profile criminal trial in manhattan. sue, it is interesting to hear in their own words their impressions of donald trump. >> right. when i was listening to that, it had echoes of what michael cohen said about donald trump when they finally saw each other in court and i think e. jean carol said the same thing. he's just a guy. >> such a powerful point. >> it was.

to let that sit there. you sort of feel like he's the wizard of oz and he's larger than life, even the way he dresses, his coats and -- >> red ties. >> red ties. but if you see him there in person, he's jut a guy. >> a guy would you took down. >> not only -- partly. just beginning to is not -- is something, there is a long way to go. it is not just about what was done, but what i think will be coming. so that it was sort of the in the process of taking down trump, of holding him accountable, of holding him to justice. that is my take on it. >> michael steele, i keep thinking there is always this survival instinct an trump's part that becomes evident when accountability is near and you saw it with the january 6 select committee. so the gop accomplices, the select committee hearings

costing republicans a red wave, thank god, in the midterms. and moving democracy up to a top three issue for independents and democratic voters. you see what a criminal trial does to donald trump. again in the words of a potential juror in the words of journalists that are watching it. nodding off yesterday. being described as just a guy who the jurors have his future in their hands. this is what trump has sought to avoid for many, many years. >> absolutely. nicolle, and it is something of kind of thought about since the beginning of this, what we're watching is the demystification of donald trump. the myth, the man, the legend built up in his own mind and fostered out among public. own mind and through the out in the public. some folks absorbed it in their skin. it became a part of who they are and how they identified themselves. others were skeptical, but yeah, he's good entertainment. others you know, i did business with them and it didn't go well.

everybody had their own little narratives about donald trump but i think now watching this unfold the way it is is clarifying and i hope it is for a lot of americans out there. that he is just a guy. and not only that, but he's a bad guy. he's a guy that really doesn't give a damn about anyone around him. including all the people he's suckered into his university. suckered into buying his steaks. suckered into staying at his hotels. all of it. it's all been this build up of a mystery and myth about a guy who's from queens. not saying that's a bad place to be from, but there are a lot of guys and gals from queens. in other words, he's just a guy who went out, tried to cut his path in the world and had some success here. in other words, he's done what a lot of us has done. some would argue oh, he's done it better than most. but he did it on the backs of others and at the expense of

others. there are people who have gone to jail for donald trump. donald trump has not once been accountable for that. weisselberg is nailing himself on the proverbial cross for donald trump. it strips away all of this and you see just the guy sitting at a table being held accountable and could likely go to jail. there you go. >> it's amazing. michael steele, thanks for putting it that way and wrapping up this hour. suzanne, kristen, thank you. quick break for us. we'll be right back. quick break for us we'll be right back.

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one american news still faces a suit from dominion. up next for us, oral arguments at the united states supreme court around the january 6th insurrection at the u.s. capitol. details on that story just ahead with justice clarence thomas back on the bench. we'll show you how that went when the next hour of deadline white house starts after a quick break. stay with us. white house startsk break. stay with us [both] because i said cologuard®! -hey there! -where did he come from? -yup, with me you can screen at home. just talk to your provider. [both] we'll screen with cologuard and do it my way. cologuard is a one-of-a-kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45+ at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for me, cologuard.

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justice department remains committed to holding all january 6th perpetrators at any level

accountable under law. it was a violent attack on a fundamental tenant of american democracy. the power is peacefully transferred from one administration to another. the justice department will never stop working to defend the democracy to which all americans are entitled. >> hi, again, everyone. it speaks to the sheer breadth of criminality. even as we monitor developments in one courtroom in manhattan, we're tracking another, the highest court in the land, which heard arguments that could have a kneecapping effect on the january 6th prosecutions. not just for the hundreds of rioters convicted but also for the guy who summoned the mob, assembled the mob and as liz cheney puts it, quote, lit the flame of the attack. understand that since the beginning of what has become the

largest investigation in the justice department's history, described to us just now by merrick garland, federal prosecutors have again and again deployed one specific tool in their tool belts, an obstruction statute, passed in the wake of the enron scandal. in the past few years, prosecutors have effectively employed that statute to serve felony obstruction charges on hundreds who attack the u.s. capitol. today, the nine justices of the supreme court heard arguments that could pull the rug out from underneath those prosecutions. lawyers for a man named joseph fisher, a police officer in pennsylvania at the time of the insurrection, suggests that all important statute is actually narrowly aimed at white collar fraud. not obstructs a congressional proceeding. quote, the high court's ultimate ruling expected by the end of june could overturn hundreds of january 6th felony convictions and hamper numerous pending prosecutions.

a ruling against the justice department could ripple into jack smith's case against donald trump whom he charged with two charges of obstructs congress' business that day. beyond the ripping effect of what the supreme court may decide in this case, that they're even hearing the case, that clarence thomas is hearing the case in the first place, is a major point of contention. every single term the court gets around 8,000 different requests to review a lower court's decision. recently, they heard oral arguments like today in about 60 less than one tenth because just a single federal judge ruled in fisher's favor. this supreme court, we've seen its approval ratings plunge to historic lows, decided amongst themselves to take up this case one week before it will consider donald trump's ludicrous claim of absolute immunity. so we take all this in, right, we try to do it with our eyes

wide open and while we consider what this could mean for donald trump and people he sent to be his foot soldiers in an insurrection at the u.s. capitol, we have to be realistic here. we have to grapple with the fact that the highest court in the land is once again wittingly or unwittingly, making a decision to insert itself into an effort to hold accountable those involved in the january 6th insurrection. it's where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends and experts. nbc news justice reporter, author of sedition hunters is here. also, tim hafy's back and senior correspondent awe vox, author of the agenda, how a republican supreme court is reshaping america. tim, remind us what your voluntary meeting with ginni thomas yielded in terms of her enthusiasm for the lie that fueled the insurrection and her role in communicating with i

think mostly state house legislators at the time. >> we got to ginni thomas not out of the blue but because she was in text communication with white house chief of staff mark meadows. we got a bunch of text messages from meadows, some with thomas, repeating discredited theories of election fraud and essentially bucking up meadows to continue the resistance to the election being certified. we interviewed her. she came in voluntarily with counsel. and expressed continuing reservations about the integrity of the vote again without, couldn't point to as no witness could, any evidence of that. so she was a fact witness not ultimately i would say a shock collar, but more of a pot stirrer.

old criminal justice system term. she repeated a lot of stuff. she was involved in the discussion in the days post election about these bogus alsos of election fraud. >> and her communications went into the west wing and her text messages with mark meadows and also out to state houses. members of republican members of state legislatures i believe in arizona and maybe a couple of other states? >> that's right. yes. she was in communication with a number of people who were all talking about and working on these theories of election fraud. >> and was she talking to people in states that presented fake electors ultimately? >> yeah. the only states that were in play were those seven states where there was a close enough election, some of them were surprisingly certified for president-elect biden. those were the only ones really involved in the conversation, so

yes. >> and just remind us again what role the fake elector's plot played in donald trump's efforts to obstruct joe biden's victory. >> an important thing that keeps this 15-12 count alive is because it involves documents. in short, the president and others in his charged conspiracy orchestrated this submission of fake electors certificates. people he met in these seven contested states, signed their name to a document suggesting that president trump had won in that state and submitting those electors. that was wrong. there was no basis for that. and they certified themselves as the official electors of those states. many states have alleged that's criminal, have brought criminal charges against the fake electors and it is part of jack smith's theory of this multipart, intentional plan to

disrupt the joint session. a generation in submission of these fake elector certificates. that's a document count which would keep this within a sort of narrower interpretation of the post enron 1512 case that was argued today in the supreme court. >> so hold all those facts. thomas goes in and tells tim and the committee everything he just shared with us voluntarily with lawyers. now listen to her husband today in questioning of doj lawyers. >> there have been many violent protests that have interfered with our proceedings. has the government applied this provision to other protests in the past and has this been the government's position throughout the life span of the statute? >> it has certainly been the government's position since the enactment that it covered the

myriad forms and not limited to some kind of evidence impairment clause. >> have you enforced it in that manner? >> we have enforced it in a variety of prosecutions that don't focus on evidence tampering. now, i can't give you an example of enforcing it in a situation where people have violently stormed the belding in order to prevent an official proceeding from occurring with all of the elements like intent to obstruct, knowledge of the proceed. that's just because i'm not aware of that circumstance ever happening prior to january 6th. >> should clarence thomas be asking questions about january 6th? >> look, he, we asked her about this in the interview. she said she had not discussed her troubles with her husband. she doesn't share her professional activity with him. he does not talk about cases with her. i leave it to others to evaluate the credibility of that. something that fundamental about

which she was so exercised, not sharing it with her husband. there's certainly an appearance issue. judges of the supreme court have to make their, unfortunately, there's no law that binds them on conflicts of interest but they have to be mindful of actual conflicts that have a personal interest in cases or appearances. at least there's an appearance issue. the fact his wife is engaged in discussions about election fraud very relevant to the proceedings in this case and there's clearly an appearance issue that for the integrity of the process, for public confidence, would suggest a recusal would be appropriate. >> if the supreme court rules in favor of mr. fisher and guts the statute, then what happens? >> so a lot of cases come with blue collar cases. unfortunately, there is no alternative. those counts would not satisfy

the narrow interpretation of the statute from the supreme court rules the 1512 is so limited. i think the case against the former president survives because there, there's evidence that his alleged crime, the obstruction of an official proceeding, did in fact involve the creation of these altered documented. it would fall within the narrow interpretation of 1512 c that mr. fisher's counsel argues. mr. ferber wasn't involved in fake electors. he was just up there storming the capitol, engaged in a violent breach of the capitol. hard to connect that to any document or paper like the 1512 narrow interpretation. former president trump was involved with the alteration of these documents. he was part of the conspiracy that got the fake elector certificates generated. he was on phone calls with state officials suggesting they submit these fake elector certificates. so i think those counts, the 1512 counts in the pending jack

smith case before judge chutkan would survive even a narrower interpretation of 1512. >> let me show you justice sotomayor's won't call it a pushback because i don't think that's what supreme court justices do, but a contrasting comment to what we heard from justice thomas on the historic nature of january 6th. >> we've never had a situation before where there's been a situation like this with people attempting to stop a proceeding violently. so i'm not sure what a lock of history proves. >> ian, again, we are dealing with perception, right? we don't know what they chatted about at dinner. we don't know really how influnable and e-mail from the wife of a supreme court justice was to people on the receiving

end. so we don't know. mark meadows hasn't publicly testified. so we don't know what impact a text from the wife of a supreme court justice to the white house chief of staff had either. but what we do know is that should the supreme court decided they picked this case, they decided to weigh in on this case. we know that at least one of the liberal justices said well there's no historical application because january 6th has never happened before. and we know that if this goes away, the january 6th prosecutions of the insurrection foot soldiers fall apart would be overturned and we know if on the 25th if they side with trump's insane immunity claims, that the opportunity to hold him accountable legally for his role

in the insurrection could go away as well. so the supreme court right now has chosen to put in their hands a powder keg of real cases. they have picked them. that will determine whether insurrections are the way of the future. >> this should be a very easy case. the first lesson i learned when i was a first year law student taking my intro to criminal law class is when you're trying to figure out if someone has committed a crime, you're reading a statute. what this one says is it's a crime to corruptly obstruct, influence, or impede a criminal proceeding. when you booked me on this show, i spent a really long time trying to think of a way i could concisely summarize the argument for not saying that january 6th was an attempt to obstruct a criminal proceeding and it's just not possible to do. it's so complex.

cross referencing a different pr provision of the statute which says something else and i don't why the supreme court is even messing with this because this is a straightforward case. this statute says if you corruptly obstruct an official proceeding, you have committed a crime. invading the u.s. capitol, trying to prevent the congress from doing something, forcing all the members of congress to flee for their lives, that is obstructing the proceeding. >> you know, ryan, you have an extraordinary body of reporting and just the title of your book is about how the january 6th insurrection broke our justice system. your thoughts on this case even being at the supreme court. >> yeah, it really does sort of put a little bit of a wrench in the proceedings here because this could have this enormous impact on these underlying cases. if the supreme court decides this doesn't apply. and the situation we're in is where there's not like a readily available statute to storming

the capitol during the certification of the electoral college. laws typically aren't written that specifically and they had to stretch back on other charges they've used. there's another statute that's used in a case called civil disorders from the 1960s passed in a much different political time and under some controversy against january 6th defendants here. so this is really i think for the most part about sort of those middle defendants. the people who were short of say seditious conspiracy. like oath keepers or proud boys. definitely did more than what you would charge with misdemeanors. i thought the solicitor general did a really good job of laying out how they made those decisions and how those cases play out. it was interesting to hear that articulated because it's something i've sort of come to the conclusion of having covered these cases because the justice department doesn't typically come out, here's what we're doing, how we're laying this

out. you can kind of figure out the rules when you follow all these cases. in a lot of case, it ended up being whether or not they had evidence of intent. so what that boils down to is whether they had their cell phones. to see what communications they had around that time. there's a conservative influencer right now who's only facing misdemeanor charges that shows her handing a table that was used to assault police officers. and the feds are going after her phone. one of the reasons you can surmise they're going after her phone is because they want to see if it's possible to bump her up from a misdemeanor dedpaent to a felony defendant because there's corrupt intent there. i thought that was interesting to hear. you often do sort of in these oral arguments heard the supreme court justices reaching for this what aboutism. there isn't a good what about for this situation because there aren't situations like this.

>> let me add someone who was in the room where it happened. democratic congressman crow is here. it's already having an effect. let me read this. a small group of people convicted have been released from custody or will go free even though the justices hearing arguments are not expected to decide the case for months. over the past several weeks, federal judges in washington have agreed to release about ten defendants who were serving prison terms saying they could wait at home as the court determined whether the law should have been used to keep them locked up. what is the, what does it say that the supreme court justice selected this case and that its immediate impact is so set free people who have pleaded guilty, who are facing sentencing for crimes for which they've been convicted that include storming the united states capitol and threatening the live of

everybody who worked inside of it. >> it sends a very dangerous message is what it does. we have a growing political extremist movement within america that continues to become more violent, more militant. even more so than it was on january 6th when a police officer was killed. 160 others were brutally beat b and of course, our official proceedings were interrupted and obstructed. i was there. we had to stop and tell the military we took the capitol that day. if that's not obstruction of an official proceeding, i don't know what is. this court korchts to operate in ways that are inconsistent with public safety, american values and precedent. they seem to be very concerned about a precedent in this case and prior examples yet not at all about precedent for this element of starry desiess when

looking at the roe case. so they are activists in a lot of forms. >> what about the perception? again, we don't have any evidence that ginni thomas talked to clarence thomas about the e-mail she sent to state legislatures in arizona and other states that are submitting fake electors but there's certainly a perception she was enthusiastic about the lies that led to the insurrection. what about the perception of clarence thomas asking questions of the solicitor general? >> well, the perception is awful because a lot of the conduct is actually awful. i've been shocked in this job since i've been a member of congress to discover that the lack of transparency and lack of oversight of the supreme court. there's really no ethics rules to speak of. there's no enforcement mechanism, no oversight. even in colorado, my home state,

there's oversight and ethical considerations and a manner to address jurists and judges when they act in ways inconsistent with their duties in their job. there's really none of that with the supreme court. so one of the things i've been pushing for is to add some of that oversight in to push for ethics reform of the supreme court. >> congressman, please stick around. we have some other news of the day to ask you about. ryan, tim, and ian, thank you for starting us off and helping us understand a story that there's been a lot out there to help us understand. not a lot of video today. it was a difficult story to dig into. when we come back, a top republican in the u.s. senate encouraging vigilante violence. the astonishing comments from tom cotton. plus, mike johnson on shaky ground within his own caucus. his promise to hold votes on ukraine funding and israel aid

is alienating more members of his party. and how we got to this point. to the edge. our dear friend is out with a new book that seeks to make sense of it all. he'll join us here at the table later in the hour. deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. te house conts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. but at what c? turn shipping to your advantage. with low cost ground shipping from the united states postal service. ♪♪

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the senator who caused an uproar when he advocated in an opinion piece for federal force against black lives matter protestors in 2020 has done et again, calling for vigilante violence when it comes to

pro palestinian protestors. senator cotton writing this, quite, i encourage people who get stuck behind the pro hamas mobs blocking traffic, take matters into your own hands and get them out of the way. it's time to put an end to this nonsense. the backlash to the senator's call, but here he is this morning doubling down on the comments. >> i said that, i posted it. i would say it again today and do it myself if i found myself in that situation. >> but you said people should take matters into their own hands. some people think it could call for violence. >> it calls for getting out of your car and forcibly removing pro hamas vigilantes on streets and highways so traffic can continue. congressman, there were a lot of cameras at the capitol on january 6th but probably didn't catch everything. are you aware of that man forcibly moving any of the trump

supporters on that day? >> i'm not. i was focused on protecting my colleagues in the house gallery. i was a part of a group of about several dozen members trapped in the house gallery. we were trying to figure out how to barricade the doors, prevent access to the gallery then had to find an escape route out. it was a very difficult situation and luckily thanks to the courage of the u.s. capitol police, we were able to find our way to safety. >> and i guess my point is this isn't someone who believes in treating all protestors the same. i mean, the op-ed for which there was much sort of attention around was about using the insurrection act on in the context of the protests that erupted after the murder of george floyd. in his words, forcibly removing with force protestors he called them pro hamas protestors. most of them are pro palestinian

protestors. the idea that this republican senator has such harsh ideas for how to deal with people protesting things he doesn't agree with feels like a hallmark of this republican party. >> well, listen, i haven't spoken, i don't know what's inside of other people's minds. i try not to spend my time inside of other people's minds around here. this is what i do know. that our country is in a spiral right now. it's in a spiral of partisanship, of vitriol, extremism and what we really need is leaders who will stop this spiral, stop it from happening, and will start uniting us again. our nation is at its best when we are united and come together. that's the leadership we need now more than ever. >> so mike johnson seems to be in a political vice of his own making. tell me your thought of the

crisis he faces there. >> well, it's a device of kevin mccarthy's making, actually. it was mccarthy that negotiated the rules package at the beginning of this congress that created a situation where one member of the republican congress can do a motion to vacate to throw out the speaker. that was a deal he made with the devil so to speak that everybody has lived with since. we don't need courage here. everyone's like we need political courage. no, we don't. courage is our firefighters running into burning buildings. courage is our service members digging in breach against iranian missiles. courage is police officers chasing a suspect down a dark alley at midnight. what we actually just need people to do in this job is not risk their lives, but just do the right thing. take a vote, might be a hard

vote, jus fie it, stand behind it. >> what do you say to our ukrainian allies? you've got a majority of americans, all of the democratic members of the body and the speaker is open to this aid package but he's got these, i don't know what you call them. extremists is a good word for them. what do you say to our allies about the inability to pass aid to help them in their efforts to defeat russia? >> a couple of hours, i did a facetime with a bunch of ukrainian special forces in a bunker in combat on the front lines. just this afternoon. i'll tell you what i said. i said listen, i've been to combat. i know it's lonely. i know it can be depressing. i know sometimes you feel like you have no support. but let me tell you that overwhelmingly the american people are behind you. overwhelmingly members of congress are behind you. we are pushing hard. you have friends, you have

allies, this has been a tough political situation but we are pushing hard to fix it to stand by you, that you are seen and heard and you're not only fighting for your own families and your own life and democracy but you're fighting for all of us and you will not be forgotten. >> are you confident the ukraine aid package will pass? >> no, i'm not confident that any one package in this particular congress will pass. nobody can be confident of that because the republican house conference is a mess and has no effective leadership. so nobody can be confident of that. i am slightly more optimistic than i was three days ago. that's with cautious optimism. there's a lot of work to be done and i'm going to be working night and day this week to try to get this over the finish line. >> just an extraordinary juxtaposition and you talking to combat soldiers in ukraine and the shenanigans going on on the republican side. thank you for spending time with us on these stories. we are grateful. wen we come back, making sense

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listen to what he says. he says quote i'll be dictator on day one. quote, i am your retribution. promises quote a blood bath if

he loses. this guy denies january 6th. listen, listen to what he says. because you know he means it. >> should by now, right? that was president biden this afternoon warning all americans that when trump threatens democracy, we should all take him seriously. and chillingly, there is a segment of his base that supports him because of it. because he will rule as a strong man. supporters who admit they like trump's contempt for democracy as long as he's on their side. our friend describes how we got here in his new book, we are the leaders we've been looking for. quote, the excitement of the obama years waned as the bodies lined up. fear and panic grabbed hold of the country as demographic data repealed the pounding of america. white people, at least those who

felt they could be nothing but white, clung to their gods and longed for the days when people who looked like me knew their place. a major political party morphed into a political force as its members are made explicit that america must remain a white nation for the privileged few. this was the ugly underside of the united states. trump simply turned the country over so that all could see the, can i say it, shit hidden underneath. eddie glaude, we are the leaders we've been looking for. also joining us, charlie sykes. let me read more from the book. okay. because i want to deal with that in this. we find ourselves living among men and women once again mad with the fever of a distorted view of liberty. i'm willing to throw away this entire experiment in democracy as they cling to their racial

fantasies. hubris clogs the nation's throat. i wish i wrote that sentence. with the willingness of every day people to fight for democracy. we must be the kinds of people democracy requires. hatred gums things up. gums us up. from the beginning this has been so. it blocks the way toward others. it straight jackets the imagination and places us behind iron bars. i love this so much but i don't want to race to the part that makes me feel better because it makes me cry. you've had so many moments on this show where you have forced me to realize that it isn't just trump, right? it's us. and i want you to, i feel like that's reflect nd the title. >> these are lectures i gave like 11 years ago and i decided to return to them because i had lost my bearings. that's the soil that produced yet again. the soil that produced democracy.

so i wanted to go back. i had lost people, i was dealing with the reality of death of covid. the political atmosphere. so i went back to them and there i found something. that at the heart of what i was thinking is that democracies require certain kind of people to work and we've just got to be better. better people. frederic douglas said july 5th 1852, the nation was young but there's a horrible reptile in the nation's bosom and he said because we're young, we need to tear it away. well, that serpent is eating our entrails now. it always has. there are these moments where the nation and here i'm echoing ralph eliassen. gets weary of its struggle for democratic equality and it reaches for the fantasy of a lily white america. it carries in tow the patriarch,

all the ugliness on the under belly of the country. so i'm say ng this book that if you're going to change, it's not goin to be an election. it's not going to be leaders. it's not going to be some profit on high. it's going to be us. >> as you know, i was out and i came back and i realized that it was not going to be an illegal accountability most likely in the federal cases and i felt despair and i thought you know what, this is fantastic because this means this election, we are the jury. right? like it is us and i feel like it's so quintessential american to wait for somebody to come save us. we want a quick fix to our weight. right? to our politics. we want a quick fix, we want to watch what we want to watch. and your sort of what you write and what you preach is that no one's coming to save us but we have agency. we can turn away from this. >> it's at our hands. we can save it or it can go to

hell. can't wait for john wayne or the marvel hero. we got power. ralph waldo emerson says great men and women come so that even greater men and women can be. so we have to understand who we are and what i'm looking for is a politics of tending. when we tend to each other's ordinary every day lives on the ground, close to the ground. i'm looking for a coalition of the decent. of the loving and caring. folk who want to finally rip us away. finally untether us from this nonsense that has produced this. my daddy went through it. his daddy went through it. i've gone through it. now my baby's going to go through it and i can't wait until he has grand kids. when will we stop? >> i feel like we're on the enl edge of the knife. do you feel it's clear our babies and their kids are going to be better than we were? it's not clear?

>> no. >> how do we make sure it is? >> we have to be clear about our commitments, about what we're fighting for. about the nation we want to be. i think every time we've talked since our early days, when i was teaching my baldwin seminar, you're like give me the syllabus. i've been emphasizing the moral question. and the moral question is what kind of human being do you want to be? who are you? i'm juanita's child. my mama's baby. for me, that means i have a certain way of being in the world. so who do we aspire to be. that moral question is the beating heart, ought to be the beating heart of our politics. >> i feel like the other part of it is there's no more sort of private self. like everything you do is this desperate i think need to connect to other people who want to be part of what you just called the coalition of the decent because we're racing

against time. it feels like this election will be decisive if we can come back from this. >> if trump wins, i think democracy's a wrap. >> so does liz cheney and people in national security and republican politics. >> it's not hyperbole. we have to understand why that's the case. it's not just simply because of donald trump. we know that we've been playing with this fire for a long time. we have to finally give us this idea that we are a white nation, men, we have to finally, we have to understand that the soul of america rests with this powerful diversity. and when we understand that as the core of who we are, then maybe we can finally imagine a different way of being together. but if it's always the case that when our moral conscious is ripped, when we're uncomfortable and unsettled, we want to get back. we want to put it aside.

so part of what i'm saying in the book is that's not left up to joe biden. to politicians. it comes back to us. >> and it's so, i have to take a break, i have to bring charlie in, the rejidty of resistance to who we actually are or relaxing into it and accepting it, right? >> yeah, or the fact we have yet to discover who we are. >> right. or face it. >> yes. >> oh, there's so much more. before we sneak in a quick break, we want to report that court is over in the second day of donald trump's election interference/hush money trial. last few minutes, a seventh juror was seated. court will be dark tomorrow but resumes on thursday. we have to sneak in a break. we'll be back with charlie sykes on the other side. l be back wits on the other side.

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your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire nervous about this because i'm asking my readers to sort of reach with me. i think people want to stretch, they're tired now. >> no, by the way, congratulations on the book. i couldn't agree more that nobody is coming to save us and this is really this fundamental test of not just the american system, but the american character. the what's also important to keep in mind besides the fact that no uniform is coming over

the hill to, but shouldn't be under any illusion that he is defeated. that this is going to be over. the reptile is going to be with us for a very, very long time. and i think this is going to be something that we're going to struggle with for a very, very long time because you know as i was, a couple of weeks, i do worry that something is fundamentally broken in american culture and society when we haven't come fully to grips with that. donald trump is obviously, also a symptom. so what broke so fundamentally that we have to have these conversations over the last eight years that there's a possibility that this country could take this course at this particular time in history. so i'm really glad to hear

eddie's argument because i do think we need to look in the mirror and say, okay this is our ultimate task and it is not by any means certain that we're going to come out with flying colors. >> i think about that all the time because i think at least there time, charlie, covering the clash in our politics, what it really is. there's one of the side of autocracy, democracy, and it's going to be brutal but at least we can be clear about what it is we're watching. what do you think all the sort of institutional barriers are with our audiences the sort of institutional barriers are to leveling with our audiences and ourselves about what it is we're seeing? >> well, whatever those barriers are, they need to fall. i think this is one of those moments -- you've talked about this many times.

it can't be said enough. this is not a normal political contest. this is one of the things we're all dealing with. there's so much tradition, so much muscle memory. we covered the horse race. we covered the polls. we covered this and that and we're distracted by the various memes. we need to keep coming back to what is this election about? what's the fundamental choice we're making here? this is one of those moments where i think all the institutions are stressed -- the courts, the congress, the electorate, the media. we don't live in the same reality we did just a few years ago in terms of what we're confronting and the stakes of what we're confronting and what the consequences might be. >> what's the conversation you want to start putting this out there? >> first of all, the fate of the

nation is in our hands, not the politicians' hands. second of all, we can be better people. i have to believe that. self-preservation in pursuit of justice. we can be better selves. coming out of my tradition, for black folks to reach for a better self, you had to reach for a better self in a world that denied you dignity and standard. you have to think a crown was placed on your head even though society said you were worthless. what does it mean to think about creating a self that is loving, that is caring, that is decent in a world -- >> trusting. >> -- that's more just. if it's not a just world, we can't be those people. this is not ideological. this is where you and i meet, our decency, trying to be better

human beings together. we got to deal with us, me, you so that we can build a better world. >> i love the mess so it isn't an excuse to throw up our hands and not go out in the world and do the right thing. >> love is the key. >> i love this. i love this so much. to be continued. charlie sykes, thank you my dear front. thank you so much. "we are the leaders we've been looking for," it's out today. it's a great read. quick break and we'll be right back. back om, come here! -don't worry about it. it'll go away on its own! -no, it won't go away on its own. it's an infection. you need a prescription. nail fungus is a contagious infection. at the first signs, show it to your doctor... ... and ask if jublia is right for you.

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penn america is out with a disturbing new report showing that book bans have accelerated nationwide hitting new highs in the first half of the school year with more than 4,000 instances of banned books. that's more than all of the last school year. book bans have spanned across 23 states and 52 public school districts impacting millions of students. the report found what we've come to expect in terms of targets. books about gay and transgender experience, racism and even books that include characters of color with a primary target for book bans. the report found something helpful too. resistance is rising. students are staging walk-outs to protect the freedom to read.

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