you have been watching our special, "trump on trial. " connectedness online, and you can ask questions about the trial. keep it right here on msnbc. okay, even by 2024 standards, this week was a lot. donald trump watched key witnesses testify against him in one courtroom while his lawyers made a bonkers case for

presidential immunity in another. our favorite legal eagles were inside both rooms and will tell us the thing we need to know about what's next. with trump in court, joe biden is doing his best to get under his skin and it seems to be working. his former white house chief of staff commented on the strategy. a little bit of everything with two of my favorite people. okay, it's safe to say, and i'm sure you're tracking it, there was a lot of legal news this week. in downtown manhattan there were hours of testimony about donald trump and the national enquirer and how they worked together to kill stories that might hurt his chances in 2016. here in washington, trump's lawyers were making that argument that killing your

political rival would be fine for a president. it's a lot to take in. what happened this week matters. it should matter to you, and all of us and it's important to talk about why, especially in moments when it feels like we are all drinking from a news firehose. let's start with thursday. when you listen to these arguments, you might have thought, this can't possibly be serious. >> if the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person and he orders the military or someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts for which he can get immunity? >> it would depend. >> i mean, you heard correctly. he said it could be an official

act, so pause. the lawyers for the former president of united states and likely republican nominee are arguing, sure. if he has a feeling that the opponent is corrupt, they can take care of it by killing them . but wait, there's more. at one point, the justice asked if the president can sell nuclear secrets to a foreign adversary. his lawyer said basically, yes. what about ordering the military to carry out a coup? according to trump's lawyer, maybe. basically, if the president does it, it's not illegal. it may have sounded like they were repairing by coming up with the craziest possible scenarios , so out far -- outside the

realm of possibility that whatever trump's lawyer said didn't matter. the thing is, none of this is that much of a hypothetical when it comes to donald trump. in 2020, he was reportedly involved in efforts to direct the defense secretary to seize voting machines. it sounds like trying to use the military to carry out a coup. a few months ago, he mused about executing. he said a staffer who should be -- leaked the story about him should be executed and bill barr said he used to say that kind of thing all the time, so when it comes to donald trump, those hypotheticals are really hypotheticals, are they? this is stuff you talked about. this is stuff that his lawyers are now saying should be okay for a president to do. here's another really important thing to understand.

the view of the presidency that donald trump has, it's literally his plan for a second term. there is a plan. right now, the far right think tank is hard at work, drafting plans to convert drums calls for revenge and lawlessness into action. it's nearly 1000 pages long, online, read if you want, you can take a look. in the meantime, let me give you the cliff notes. their goal is to assemble an army of aligned, vetted, trained, and prepared conservatives to go to work on day one to deconstruct the administrative state. one big area they are attacking? the justice department with the project has said lost its way and the new york times writes that to find its way back, it must be subservient to the white house. that basically means they want to remake the structure and

staffing of the justice department so an independent branch of government looks the other way while trump basically does whatever he wants. as the new york times said, according to the plan, the law will submit to the presidents priorities and if not, the lawyers are doing it wrong. it's not exactly appointment television all the time, but it does matter. clearly, in the context of this specific case, but because the responses from the trump legal team tells us a lot about how he sees the power of the presidency and how he looks at a potential second term. the former u.s. acting solicitor general and counsel of the fbi and special counsel robert mueller's team and an msnbc legal correspondent. it's a trove of legal brains, here. you have argued more cases, i've almost lost track. you were in court thursday.

what was your biggest take away from listening to the questioning and the back-and- forth? >> i've seen over 400 arguments , there. most of the time, when you walk out of the supreme court, you know what is going to happen and that was not true, here. it was hard to predict where the justices would wind up and that is my biggest take away. this should have been an easy case. as you said, trump's lawyers are making bonkers arguments and by contrast, the lawyer for jack smith was very erudite and collegial. if you were in the courtroom, it's sounded like a scholarly this position and it wasn't really persuasion. i think they made a lot of points that did land and the most chilling point came at 11:55, two hours after the argument began, after talking

for more than an hour. he described to the justices something, you, this is not hypothetical. here is what the indictment said donald trump did, pressuring the justice department to send letters to state legislature, saying there was fraud and the like and threatening to fire staffers when they refused to do that. the justices did really perk up , i saw four justices, sotomayor, kagan, jackson, and barrett really reject this absolute immunity claim and the question is, where is the chief justice on this? he was playing his cards close to the vest. >> so interesting. andrew, did anything surprise you and what did you make of the tea leaves? >> i think it's important to remember that at the outset, the court had already given

donald trump lewinsky he was seeking, which was the delay of the trial. going into this, this was all upside for him. i think he had to be thinking, i am making an outlandish argument, that could not be squared with the text in history . so, it's an upside if the court would actually bite on this. what is surprising is that there were justices who were actually taking this seriously, and it was frankly, shocking. going into this, the given was that private conduct was certainly not immunized from criminal liability. what we are talking about now is hey, maybe some of this is private and they can go forward but that was a given going into this. the reason people think that is because there seemed to be four

justices who were really taking donald trump's claim of criminal immunity seriously. we are, i know it sounds like hyperbole, but i think your opening is so correct, that we are, essentially, one vote away from the end of democracy as we know it, with checks and balances and to say it is an imperial presidency that would be created is frankly saying he would be king, criminally immune , and that is what is so shocking, is how close we are that we are on a razor's edge on that kind of result, but for the chief justice. >> one vote away, it's very stark. andrew's order reference to this, amy coney barrett had a lot of questioning that jumped out to me, where she was basically pinning trump's lawyer down on the distinction

between official and private acts. did that stick out to you and what is she trying to get at? >> she trying to get at the fact that the indictment mostly alleges a number of things that are private acts, that despite the characterization of john sauer, as many of the acts, they are anything but official. at one point the president advanced the defense on the basis of the first amendment and those things can coexist. you can't say on one hand, he's been charged with what are primarily official accent on the other, first amendment protection because the first amendment would not apply to the president but for the fact that he is acting in a personal or campaign capacity. amy coney barrett trying to suss out and pin down john sauer with respect to the actual allegations in this indictment were both helpful and surprising because no one had amy coney barrett on their bingo card as the swing vote.

>> i didn't and it sounded like most of you didn't, either. let me play a moment from justice alito. >> if an incumbent, who loses a very close, hotly contested election, knows that a real possibility after leaving office is not that the president is going to be able to go off into peaceful retirement, but that the president may be criminally prosecuted by a bitter political opponents, will that not lead us into a cycle that destabilizes the functioning of our country as a democracy? >> he seems to be arguing in plain english that immunity is necessary because otherwise, presidents fear prosecution and will be incentivized to attempt to hold power unlawfully. what

did you make of that statement? >> i thought it missed two important things. in the 200 year history of this country, it's never happened because we always thought that presidents were subject to criminal liability, and second, that there were powerful remarks made in january 2021 where they said, do not impeach president trump. instead, you can indict him after he leaves office. that person was donald trump's own lawyer. so, trumping the impeachment is saying, i can't be impeached, i can only be indicted. now that is left office, he saying i can't be indicted either and can't be impeached. it's a recipe to put him above the law. >> he has said a lot of things that come back to bite. thank you for joining us .

andrew and lisa, we are about to shift our focus to the new york trial and new testimony from david pecker. lisa was in the courtroom, i know andrew has lots, we are back, after this. what? horsepower keeps you going, but torque gets you going. what happened to my inner child craving love and acceptance? how about you love and accept this? p-p-p-p-powershot! when can i drive? you already are! the dodge hornet r/t... the totally torqued-out crossover. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. that's great. i know, i've bee telling everyone. baby: liberty. oh! baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪ (♪♪) i'm getting vaccinated with pfizer's pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine.

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so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. ofrom chavez and huertaor. to striking janitors in the 90s to today's fast-food workers. californians have led the way. now, $20/hour is here. thanks to governor newsom and leaders in sacramento, we can lift workers out of poverty. stop the race to the bottom in the fast-food industry. and build a california for all of us. thank you governor and our california lawmakers for fighting for what matters. of his way to point out that trump is a husband and a father and claimed that the scheme was intended to protect trump's family. but, david pecker testified to the contrary, saying the purpose was really for the campaign, and said that trump's family was never mentioned, not

by michael cohen or trump himself and in the case of karen mcdougal, he explicitly confirmed that they suppressed her story in order to "influence the election." that testimony also revealed a lot of details, but more importantly, he made aware that they were not only doing something unethical, illegal. when asked whether he knew that paying to kill stories on the behalf of a presidential candidate was against the law, david pecker said yes. so much legal means for both of you, thank you for joining us. so david pecker was first for a reason and you been part of the strategy and having heard it, how did he lay the groundwork for the prosecutor's cases when they looked to the next stage? >> brilliantly, and that has a lot to do with the homework on the manhattan d.a.s office.

remember, this case is not so much about the hush money scheme as it is about falsification of business records. what makes it a felony is that it was done to either, with the intent of concealing or committing another crime and what david pecker did was establish the other crime, a conspiracy under new york election not to promote or prevent the election of a particular person through unlawful means where one or more acts were taken in that direction. he laid all of that groundwork, the formation of the conspiracy, the unlawful means, the karen mcdougal settlement payment and the way in which it was orchestrated, and thirdly, the fact that the unlawful means was not only the agreement, but the fact that they loaded up with services to skirt campaign finance law. he knew paying her off to

suppress her story with the goal of promoting the election was unlawful and what he did was also provide that she would serve as a red carpet interview , for one of their properties, and the like. that was a ruse, though a ruse that karen mcdougal took very seriously, and that is what posed problems for them, eventually, because she wanted them to make good on that portion of the agreement and they had a done it to silence her. >> that testimony was so interesting. i wanted to go, before david pecker and ask about the opening statement this week. he made bold statements. he basically denied trump's alleged affair with daniels. that's not part of the legal argument in the legal sense, but does that matter and how

can that come back to bite him, or can it? >> one thing when you are on trial, in the prosecution or the defense, you need to be extremely careful about what you promise a jury and what happens is both sides listen carefully to that and it will come back, if you have promised something that did not come to play, you're going to hear that. the statement that denying that tryst with stormy daniels, i'm not sure how that will come into evidence, because stormy daniels, is not going to testify, i'm sure the prosecution would love it, and there's no way on god's green earth he will testify so i don't know how that is going to come into play. that's the kind of thing where, he had to say

that for his client, he had to say it for the public consumption, and it's going to hurt him. in summation, you are going to hear the state saying, this is what he told you, that's not true with the message being, don't trust them. it's important what is said in opening and it remains to be seen what the jury makes of that. >> one of the things we learned is that there are text and email exchanges for all of this, some of which we learned about this, that dylan howard, top editor of the inquirer sent to a relative on election night saying "at least if he wins, i will be departing for electoral fraud." judge merchan won't allow that into evidence but doesn't it make it clear that this was illegal? >> i think it absolutely does,

not only that david pecker knew it was illegal but that dylan howard figure that out as well and i should say, it's a close call from an evidentiary perspective. on the other hand, this was a statement he was making to a first degree relative, david pecker revealed that he had some sort of health problem. on balance, judge merchan decided that this would be interesting to expose the jury to. there's a lot of where that's coming from, that indicate that

howard fully believes karen mcdougal was telling the truth, on election night, and was horrified to see what had gone down. if the statements had come into evidence i think that it would have been one more notch in the d.a.s belt with respect to proving the existence of the conspiracy and the understanding that this was not only wrong, but unlawful. >> go get some sleep, spend time with your families, we need you both, as we are all watching what's happening. thank you for joining us. coming up, my colleagues are joining us and we will ask them about courtroom campaigning, debates, and whether joe biden should pick up the phone and call chris christie. with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium. hello, ghostbusters. it's doug.

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different cases in two different courts and the other, well, was busy campaigning and being president of the united states. the contrast could not be more apparent. >> they are keeping me in the courtroom, all day long while he is out campaigning. >> women don't have the right that their mothers and grandmothers had because of donald trump. i don't think we are going to let him get away with it, do you? >> i was forced to be here. i'm glad because it was an interesting day but the u.s. supreme court had a monumental hearing of immunity. >> $6.1 billion in funding was $25 billion for micron to build facilities in new york. >> i want to start by wishing my wife a very happy birthday. i wish i could be with her but

i am in a courthouse. the mac now, when an airline screws you over, they are now forced to refund you. i think that's a huge deal. >> there items they say well, it only cost this, it only cost that. it matters. >> joining man-o-war the cohost of pod save america and the co- authors of a new book, coming out in june. writing a book, doing a podcast, you've been busy. good to see you guys. >> so good to see you. >> so, let me start with that split green because as we just played, donald trump has been eating in the courtroom all week . joe biden has basically been doing presidential things, he's on the campaign trail, in the situation room, we are paying

close attention to this so, is it going to matter? >> if you are inclined to watch and consume political news which, fortunately, is most of the country, i believe it matters to you. if you're not, you're only picking up headlines, here and there. it's an election is going to be decided by the margins. as the trial continues and there's a verdict, people will wake up and it will have an effect. >> does anything this far out matter? it matters a bit and if it's going to matter at all, it's a useful thing to have joe biden be met by someone who thinks him for lowering the price of insulin and donald trump is outside the courtroom, calling the judge ugly, so that is a split screen. >> it is quite a split screen. >> use listing his various enemies outside his criminal trial. >> we've all been on campaigns,

you know. i don't think we would have had this on the calendar. >> that's why i ask because watching it, oh my god, this is insane. look what trump is saying about the judge. joe biden is doing compelling things. it's over, it's really not. the electorate doesn't digest in the same way but it could matter in the long run. >> i do think that the more donald trump is out there, talking about himself, his own grievances, being a victim, that feeds into the message that biden wants to get out there anyway, which is that joe biden is fighting for people and donald trump is fighting for himself. >> this is, of course, it's one of the traditions of presidential campaigns and is an important moment for people who may not be tuned in to pay attention. joe biden said he's happy to

debate trump, trump responded saying, anywhere, anytime, anyplace, he said a lot of other crazy things, as well. do you think it's a good idea for joe biden to debate? >> he has to. there is a risk. we were on the obama campaign in 2012 and incumbent presidents in their first debate is always tricky because they are not used to debating and stuff like that. voters expect to see both of them debate and now, biden said he wants to and trump certainly wants to. trump would like to debate every weekend. i think the normal course of events in the presidential campaign, you do have debates. >> so, there's pennsylvania, of course, nikki haley won over 150,000 votes in a closed primary and that has received a lot of rejoicing because it's like, if hundred and 50,000 republicans are voting for

someone who's not running, that's good for joe biden. is it? do we know? >> there's a lot of people who want to look at this, these results, and try to glean some knowledge to feel better about dumping her and i think it's a fools errand. the election will be close. does it tell you that yes, donald trump has a weakness among republicans? of course. but that is part of what allows joe biden to win, with an incredibly narrow margin. i don't know what lesson you can take, other than, yeah, there are people that we have to appeal to. is it helpful? i don't know. >> what percentage of them are biden voters, i don't know. >> and pennsylvania, 200,000 or so registered republicans voted for joe biden.

it's not, we just don't know. it's a good sign that people felt in a primary, that was not competitive, strongly enough about voting against donald trump, but we don't know. >> let's talk about those who have not endorsed either, well- known names. you guys have a special connection, if anyone who listens to your podcast knows. he said joe biden has my phone number, he should call me, joe biden calls almost anyone so i'm not sure why he hasn't, but does that make a difference? would it make a difference if they were out there? >> i think it would make a big difference. we are in the same dynamic that we've been in for a long time which is, does anyone

politician or figure coming out for joe biden or trump make the difference? probably not. does it matter that en masse where people like chris christie and a bunch of people inside the trump administration who know how dangerous and chaotic and humbling he is, not just say it in an atlantic article that they are concerned about trump, actually stand up and say, this is a binary choice for the good of the country, i'm a republican or an independent and i'm getting behind joe biden because that's what we have to do for democracy. i think that would matter and it thing that people like chris christie should do. >> do you think you could vote for them? >> i would love to, with that being the diplomacy we need between joe biden and chris christie. >> i love it, thank you for joining us. next, my old boss, former white house chief of staff is standing by to weigh in on president biden's recent big a donald trump, including pretty good ones at the correspondence dinner. we are back, after a quick

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you'll never guess, or maybe will, who was up bright and early, firing off the review of the white house course london's dinner. " colin jost was bombed, crooked joe is a disaster. it doesn't get worse. " it's not true, and he knows that, but it's not surprising that he salty because he was hilariously roasted. >> yes, age is an issue. i am a grown man. running against a six-year-old. trump's speech was so embarrassing, the statue of robert lee surrendered again. age is the only thing we have in common. my voice president -- my voice -- my vice president actually endorses me. donald trump is out of tough

few days, you might call it "stormy" weather. >> those are things that we expect to hear from the president, people speaking, the joe biden has actually been doing more and more of that on the campaign trail, too. >> he described the dobbs decision as american. maybe that comes from the bible he's trying to sell. whoa, i'm tempted to buy went to see what is even in it. >> he's suggesting companies inject a little bleach in their veins. he missed it, it all went to his hair. >> joining me now is someone who is worked alongside president biden for decades, my old boss, ron klain. so, you could tell he was

having a good time and it was funny, they landed well in the room and it's interesting that he's been doing that on the campaign trail, as well, because there's a question of, what is the right strategy in going after trump? are you angry, bold, history, funny? he's been doing that. what you think? >> it's part of it. the president left the campaign, he loves being with people, he loves working the rope line and engaging voters so he gets in a good mood on the road and so the jokes start coming. i don't think it's a big political strategy to take down donald trump. donald trump is busy doing that every day and it's important for the president to make a contrast between the presidency he's brought and what he will do for four more years and what trump has done and is saying he will do if he gets to come back. >> he needles him, and trump response, like he can't help himself. let me ask about debates, because you've prepped presidential confederates --

candidates for debates more than anyone. will they, won't they, both said they will, but you said there need to be fair rules. what does that look like and what do we understand? >> they will debate. president biden said he was willing to debate and trump is claiming he would debate him anytime, anywhere. >> including today. >> i don't think that's true, but i think what we have to see is something different than we saw, where the debate commission lost control. trump didn't file -- follow the rules, he talked over opponents, it was more of a spectacle than a debate. donald trump is on the stage, and then we have debates where the candidates get equal time or there's an orderly way of proceeding, it's not a shouting match. compare them. >> rules are so important which i don't think people realize is part of negotiations.

>> rules have to be enforced. >> absolutely. you referenced howard stern. this was an interview, the president was emotional and talked about his personal life and the loss of his first wife. he recently spent time with his friends, two former presidents, it's interesting. it's called the new strategy or new-media strategy, i don't know how people refer to it, to me it is reaching a more broad audience. it shows a different side of joe biden. >> they are doing a great job with it. getting the president out there more, i think we'll see him and the more they remember why they like him, you're stuck in the rose garden, engaged people, that is his decency, his humanity, what he believes and stands for, presenting them in nontraditional outlets, there's

howard stern on his podcast, or whatever, for people to get reacquainted with the president and remember their connection with him. >> what does he do next? what should he? >> more of the same. >> i know very well the president does not speak and comment on legal cases, you probably won't either. you are someone who spent decades in government for the justice department, what was going to your head with some of these arguments being made by the trump team, the legal team, in front of the supreme court, basically that any president should be immune, no matter what they do? as someone who served the number of decades that you have, what are you thinking? >> this is america, no one is above the law, not even the president. that's important. i hope our system of justice finds a way to effectively

carry out justice. >> do you worry, it's fair to say, about the supreme court's demise in terms of popular opinion? >> the court has brought it on itself. it's a highly political ruling, bush versus gore, getting rid of a fundamental right, basic american rights, and then, it has to do this trump case. the trump campaign needs to think about its role in society. we are very conscious of that and i hope that justice roberts and colleagues. >> there are protest on college campuses regarding the war between israel and hamas and the white house, there are many

protesters on campuses, what do you think he will say to protesters or what should he convey in that moment? >> i think the president will speak to the graduates, as a country, with their futures, what he wants to do to make their futures bright, their economic policies and social justice policies and what they offer the next generation of americans is important. i don't think protesters should be able, they have a right to speak out, that is what we see, we saw that with columbia, recently, but there are protest that have no place, the white house is spoken about that. the starting point is the unconditional release of the hostages, bring those innocent people home, safely, and hopefully the president has his team trying to produce a cease- fire, and that is important bit

in the past six months, secretary blinken, secretary austin, the been in the region and it's important to be clear that the president understands the suffering of the palestinian people, he's doing everything he can to bring humanitarian relief to those people, and continues to push for a peaceful outcome. >> we only have 30 seconds, this is a bigger question, but do you think that people are concerned enough about rfk junior and the threat he poses in a handful of states, michigan and maybe some others? is the mac -- >> i think some people are concerned. i think in the end, the american people realize only one of two people is going to become president, biden or trump, that's the choice in our system, it's a two-party system and people need to vote for biden or they are effectively voting for trump. that's the choice in 2024.

>> good way to end, thank you for joining us. i appreciate it. thank you. coming up, there's a lot of focus on the upcoming election but new charges continue to be filed against those who worked to overturn the last one. we will talk about the indictments we saw this week in arizona, when we come back. respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. i chose arexvy. rsv? make it arexvy.

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member when i said it feels like we are all drinking from a news firehose? i'm sure you're feeling that. that in mind, it's completely understandable if you miss that donald trump was just named and unindicted co-conspirator in two large jurisdictions. wednesday, a grand jury in arizona indicted 18 people in connection with the fake electors scheme that they used to try to overturn election results in 2020. it says those charged scheme to prevent the lawful transfer of the presidency to keep unindicted co-conspirator one in office against the will of arizona's voters. okay. so that's arizona. on the very same day, in michigan, a state

investigator testified that trump was and unindicted co- conspirator in the criminal investigation into the fake electors scheme, there. add that to the list. michigan and arizona are now two of four states attempting to hold those accountable for attempting to undermine election results in 2020. across those jurisdictions, more than 50 people now face criminal charges. 50 individuals across four states and that not counting those charged federally. the sheer number of indictments should be a shock to the system. what we saw in arizona and michigan was another reminder that this was sprawling, a sprawling, coordinated attempt to run around on the will of the people, and yet, somehow, that still isn't universally agreed upon. according to a poll released this week, a quarter of americans still think donald trump did nothing wrong in his attempt to overturn the 2020 election. for republicans, that jumps to nearly 50%. that disconnect could be due to how brazenly

trump and his allies lied about what happened, or, how brazenly they tried to pull it off. some of those charged in the fake electors scheme literally sign fraudulent documents in front of cameras. it could also be that there is simply too much to keep up with, too much news. for some, these indictments out of michigan and arizona might feel like just one more thing on a pile for trump, but for for the people of arizona and michigan and every other state that trump and his allies tried to defraud, it's not just one more thing. for lots of voters, it's an important step toward accountability for the people who tried to undermine their say in how the country functions. so, it's easy to get numb to this stuff, believe me, i know, but it's important that we don't. stomach that does it for me. my brand-new book, that ryan claimed referenced, is coming out may 7th. i'll be in new york city in conversation with my friend and

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