simon rosenberg gets tonight's last word kirker the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle

starts now. >> tonight, new week, new witnesses. donald trump faces new testimony as his criminal trial resumes along with a possible ruling on his alleged gag order violations. plus, what elon musk wants from china that he can't get here in the u.s. and what that could mean for national security. then, inside maga's plans for a second trump residency. a warning about the movement's new strategy to remake america as the 11th hour gets underway on this monday night. good evening once again. i am stephanie ruhle. great to be back with you and we are now 190 days away from the election and week two of testimony in donald trump's new york terminal case begins tomorrow morning, which is just hours from now. when the trial resumes in the morning, we expect to hear more from michael collins former banker . then when trump gets a

day off from court on wednesday, he is headed to the key swing states of michigan and wisconsin for campaign events before returning to new york city for two more days of court. president biden is also hitting the campaign trail after he rested from pat the white house correspondents dinner over the weekend. he is set to hold an event in delaware tomorrow. according to three people familiar, president biden has started to feel more and more confident in the last few weeks that he'll beat trump come november. let's be honest. at this point we know exactly what to expect when trump takes the stage at campaign events. he's going to rant about how everybody is out to get him. he's going to rip on president biden. he is going to say the world will end if he's not reelected and say that he alone is the only one who can fix all of our country's problems. he will use the trump playbook to flood the zone with wild accusations and talk as much as possible and most likely say almost nothing about actual

policies. but as the new york times points out, this new york trial might be the first time donald j trump is forced to face any kind of consequences for the words he uses. trump has spent five decades spewing thousands of thousands of words, sometimes contradicting himself within minutes, sometimes within the very same breath, with little concern for the consequences of what he said. speaking of consequences for what trump says, there is another hearing on violations of his gag order and that is set for thursday. we are still waiting for judge mershon's ruling on the first gag order hearing. there is a lot to cover so let's get smarter with our leadoff panel tonight. khaira letting joins us, pulitzer prize winner for the washington post, hugo loans, political mitigations reporter from the guardian and msnbc legal analyst kristin greenberg. she's a former federal prosecutor and former st ny

criminal division deputy chief. hugo, since you have been the man waiting in line every single morning and inside that trial, what are you looking for in week two? >> i think the second gag order hearing. we were discussing after the first gag order hearing why judge marchand might have been holding off issuing an order or finding trump in contempt and i kind of have to wonder, and the is the same thought that has been pervasive throughout trump's inner circle over the weekend is, is judge mershon waiting for the weight of all of trump's infractions, the clear violations of the gag order to step up before he has done a very heavy penalty to show that, look, he had no other choice other than to find a trump in contempt and that will be the thing to watch on thursday. >> we expect to hear more tomorrow from michael collins x banker. how is the prosecution trying to tell the story through him of what happened there, trying to tie that to donald trump's intent? >> i think it will be important for this banker to walk through

that yes, as defense said, just making a hush money payment in and of itself is not illegal. but look at the ways that show you that they knew that there was something wrong with this. they used a shell company. they opened up a separate bank account. he had to, michael cohen, open up a line of credit, get a mortgage essentially on his home because he didn't have the money, because donald trump wouldn't give him the money and he was stiffing twice for the other payments so this is the resort that michael cohen had to go to and the banker is going to kind of walk-through that yes, when he was opening up this account the bank didn't deal with payments to adult film stars, for example. those are the kinds of things that would be a red flag for the bank, so this transaction setting up the account, using the shell company to make a payment to stormy daniels, this was something that set off the red flags. it was shady and everybody would've known it and the bank

flags it. >> let's talk about defendant donald. your colleagues at the post point out that more than anything else, this trial has taken away donald trump's control over his daily life, his confidence. this is a guy who has never even worked for anyone else or been on anyone else's schedule. how much is that affecting him? >> donald trump hates it, absolutely hates it. this is a person who, when he was the president, in his first days in office, was able to basically blow through the norms of how a president normally operates every morning. they usually have a very early schedule. they start a presidential daily brief reading with their cia briefer. president trump said, you know what, i don't really feel like doing that, i feel like staying in my robe in my room for a few hours in the morning and calling all my friends and finding out how i'm doing politically and what they think about what i said on television the other day. he basically put off all the

big responsibilities of being president to work on the political machinations of vamping up his popularity. so this idea of him being in a room where he cannot speak or he's not supposed to speak, he has actually spoken a few times and gotten scolded by the judge for muttering under his breath about a juror, for talking out loud and out of turn. the idea that he's not only constrained to this room and constrained to these rules, but not able to speak up the way he's so used to doing, and getting flattered every time he does, it's kind of -- it's sort of sucking the energy out of him every day, and my colleagues report that he's in a horrible mood and it's hard for him to sort of do donor events afterwards or talk strategy after the sessions in court because he's just so livid. >> clever carroll remembers

that backed during the trump administration when anyone would say unprecedented, i would charge them two dollars, so there she is saying blowing through the norms. i see you, carroll, and i'm still considering charging two bucks. i know you were doing there. is the, can we talk about what hugo brought up, this gag order ruling? because we've got another one, another hearing coming up we are still waiting for the first ruling. what do you think is going to happen here? >> it is very clear from the first hearing that donald trump is in contempt of this gag order. we all know that. he is not only posting on trees social, he's posting on his campaign website. he is flouting the order outside the courtroom and he's targeting witnesses. he's targeting jurors. he is -- it's a blatant. it's not just once, it's not just twice. i think we are now up to 13 violations and it's clear that the judge said to defense counsel, you're giving me anything to work with you, that there is any ambiguity, that this is fake. he knows what he's doing. so now once you have the fact that this is willful and he's

willfully violating the order, it's clear that he should be held in contempt. now what do you do about it? $1000 per violation, that is a slap on the wrist. >> not even a slap on the wrist. he's going to blow his nose with it. >> is nothing in the judge knows it. i think the reason it's taken so long as the judge knows that if he does that it's such a copout and even this other option, trying to come up with some third option that's not jail is also a copout. donald trump needs to go to jail for this, plain and simple. it's just too flagrant. it's too many times in too many ways targeting too many people, not just three different witnesses, jurors multiple times, before they were seated and now after they were seated. the judge has a hard job, he does, but this is a very simple question. it's clear that he violated. it's clear that it was willful and you've got to treat him the same as you treat any other criminal defendant. any other

guy who is outside the courtroom, flouting the order, would've been hauled into a jail cell the next day. enough is enough. he has to be sentenced to jail. >> all right then. all right, hugo. can we talk about the heart of this case, the paper trail? on one hand it might be the most complex part for the jury to make sense of, unlike a witness on the stand, but unlike a witness on the stand, trump can't go after them. trump can't tease them, trump can't torment them. how key is this as part of the prosecution strategy, paper? >> i think it's super key and i think the remarkable part of this case is just how much of it is on paper. if we think about all the invoices, if we think about how the da's office got to the 34 counts in the first place, it was based on each ledger entry and each of the checks. that's the heart of this. on some of the papers that the da has managed to get into evidence is trump's own handwriting or his aide's own handwriting, and that's very, very difficult to impeach in terms of cut ability because it's their before you. and i think even if it's complicated as a concept to

think about 34 separate receipts and you're presented with it, i think it's very difficult for trump's lawyers to go, these are for something else, these are random payments for other things not to do with the hush money when it was so blatantly obvious. >> i want to go back to the last thing you said, that trump is in such a foul mood, he's in no position to pick up the phone and dial four dollars with donors or go to campaign events. however, this wednesday, when he has the day off, he is going to go back on the trail. he's going to michigan. he's going to wisconsin. why do you think that is? is it because he was taking so much heat from president biden or because his own advisors are reminding him, yo, you're running for president, we've got to get out there? >> i think it's a two for answer, forgive me, stephanie, and i promise not to say unprecedented. i really do. but it's a two for for donald. he's going to reconnect with the people who are going to bow down to him and say you know

you're kind of our messiah. we love you, we love you, we can't believe this is happening to you. that kind of feedback loop that donald trump really feeds off of. it's important to him. just as every night when he's at mar-a-lago, as he goes on to the dining room, patio and the mezzanine, people clap as he enters the dining room patio. it's like -- and they play hail to the chief. it's really important to him to get that kind of affirmation. that's critical. but the other thing is his campaign advisors are reminding him that biden is doing really well with a lot of -- i'm not saying he's doing better in the polls. it's a tight, tight race but he's doing really well with a bunch of sort of strafing of the media environment with a bunch of ads and that is something donald trump has to counteract. he also has a financial deficit right now in terms of his ability to get on the airwaves,

so they're getting in front of human beings and getting free media, meaning us covering him being there, is also really important. >> hugo, just weeks before the 2020 election, lindsey graham went on fox news to show his support for trump, looked right in the camera and said, law and order is on the ballot. that was in 2020. i want to share what he said this weekend. >> if he is convicted you will still support him and vote for him? >> absolutely. i think what's going on with donald trump is weaponization of the law. he's being prosecuted in manhattan, one of the deepest blue cities in the country. >> let me be clear. he's being prosecuted in manhattan because it is where the alleged crimes he committed took place. it wasn't selected randomly by any political operatives. the gop can't possibly be running on law and order as their message now, right? >> i don't know, speak to

lindsey graham. i think what you said is very true, which is he is being tried in a manhattan court because he committed crimes allegedly in manhattan. and for all these republicans who frankly come out and say this is selective and vindictive prosecution, all we have to do is look at the classified documents getting charged in that case. is getting charged in the southern district of florida. there was a conscious decision to move that there because the trial veneer was decided to be that specific federal district. they could have charged it in dc but they thought the fairest thing from a judicial perspective in the special counsel's office and the appellate divisions at main justice, trying that case in the southern district of florida. this idea that there is some selective random way of choosing or even vindictive way of choosing where to try trump is just bizarre and frankly, the other thing that we saw with the supreme court last week was that he has been let off the hook. trump has been let off the hook so many times in all of his

legal cases, for the supreme court to basically say we are going to remand, in effect suggest that we are going to remand the federal january 6 case back to the trial court and inject what's likely going to be months of delay. that is just another example of trump being treated completely differently to any other criminal defendant ever in the history of this country, ever. >> new topic before we go. we often say it on this show, the truth matters only if you hear it. nbc news obtained a letter showing hunter biden's lawyers plan to sue fox news imminently , the suit there accuses the network of conspiracy and defamation and at the same time, oan was forced to retract a fake story that they were out there pushing about michael cohen. how much did that dominion settlement, 700-plus million dollars, how much is that a game changer in terms of what people are allowed and what

people are going to go after them for saying on television? >> it's a huge game changer. money talks, right? that was a huge settlement and they've got other lawsuits pending. >> it hasn't even started yet. >> that's where i think 2.8 again, maybe. it's a large number so they are clearly adjusting but it's interesting with the hunter biden lawsuit that's imminent, what news organization holds a six part mock trial of a private citizen, not a politician, for charges that he's never been charged with, for bribery and violating the foreign agents registration act. they claim that it's for entertainment value and yet there are parts that are true, there are parts they are distorting. that's just to chris. that would be a terrible thing to do to anyone, much less, again, a private citizen who has not run for any office. and then you have that based on an fbi confidential source who

has now been charged for making false statements to the fbi. so this person that fox news said was highly credible is now -- has now been proven not to be or at least allegedly is not so at a minimum, the remedy that hunter biden is asking for is hold this six part mock trial and inform your viewers that this person you are relying on has now been charged with a crime for lying. these seem like eminently reasonable remedies to deal with what is clearly harm to his reputation. >> quit line or pay up. carroll hugo, thank you both for being here. christie as well. before we go to break , an update on our djp tracker, following how donald trump's media company is doing in the public market. stock closed at more than 46 bucks a share today. that is up more than 12%. the reason for the strike might be the company's recent statements and filing targeting people who are short selling the stock percocet for anyone who thinks donald trump is a huge financial trouble, he can't sell that stock yet but he has millions and millions of

shares and they are now worth in the billions. we are going to keep watching trump media stock and make sure you know what is really going on every day. when we return, despite very strong job growth, record low unemployment, voters still say things are better under trump than they are today hunter biden economically. and later, white tesla's new deal with china's government is a huge deal that everyone should be following. the 11th hour just getting underway on a consequential monday night. monday night.

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when it comes to the economy, despite a lot of good news, new polling shows that voters in crucial battleground states are now saying that things were better under donald trump than they currently are, and it's not even close. at the same time, a cooke backed group is trying to get latino voters to go republican in november because of biden's economic policies. the group is launching an ad campaign that says those policies are leading to, quote, to the demise of the entire country from immigrants. meanwhile vice president kamala harris kicked off a multistate economic opportunity tour to promote the administration's investments in local communities, and there are a lot of them. here with me to discuss, msnbc contributor brian tyler cowen and tim miller, host of the bulwark podcast and former communications director for

republican jim wish. these polling numbers on the economy are not a surprise. the pollsters are saying how do you feel? people don't feel great because life is extensive, your food is expensive, your rent is expensive, gas is now expensive and that impacts people. but here's the thing -- donald trump is offering a grand total of zero economic policy solutions and what president biden is doing is an awful lot to help deal with the impact of inflation. so why are things where they are? what's your reaction? >> i think a big part of this is that half of the country gets their news from like a right-wing media machine that kind of exists solely to just tear democrats down and lift republicans up, and they do it in this kind of alternate reality where crime is up, where the economy is down, where democrats don't engage on the border, where women are getting postbirth abortions, where donald trump did nothing

wrong, and so these people don't know the reality of the economy that biden is presiding over, for example, to your oriole or points we do have jobs added, a record high stock market, the longest stretch of unemployment in half a century. we have the fastest recovery in the g7 so it's no surprise that half of our country has kind of soured on the state of the economy when they're being fed this alternate reality on a daily basis. >> but him, even if you weren't being fed all that news, life is expensive, right? inflation is what it is. it's significantly better here than it is in other parts of the world, but it's interesting that this coke political armies targeting latinos. are they that vulnerable when it comes to being economic voters? are they up for grabs when it comes to the biden economy? >> some of them are certainly up for grabs. i do want to take a victory lap as i was criticizing them during the primary, saying they weren't actually really campaigning against trump

though they did a few ad buy's and who they are supporting trump in the general election. you can kind of tell when somebody is putting their money where their mouth is in these sort of campaigns. as for the actual fact of this, i think wright is right. some people are living in a media this info environment and that's coloring their views. i think there's another group of people out there that are annoyed by the economy. i said on this show a while back -- >> you were the first to say it. >> i think there are some people that still live that way. maybe they haven't lost their job or maybe they've gotten a small raise but all their everyday expenses cost more and that drives people crazy. and that's why incumbents approval ratings are bad. it's not just joe biden. it's all over the world that incumbent leaders, prime ministers and presidents have bad approval numbers.

i think this group of people, if you look at economically vulnerable latinos and black voters, particularly men, republicans are going to try to peel those folks often democrats are going to have to make a case for why they should stick with them. one piece of good information about the whole thing is a lot of these people, yes, you asked them how their state's economy is going they say it's going pretty good. so maybe there is just a lag and we've got to get back around to joe biden because people's impressions of the national economy are worse than what they are experiencing, and i think that's maybe the most helpful side of the data right now. >> let's talk about who got together this weekend, donald trump and ron desantis talking about a possible joint fundraising push. what's your reaction to this florida reunion? >> meatball and mango, together again. like peanut butter and jelly. these guys need each other, is what it is. it's simple as that. ron desantis still thinks he's going to run for president in 2028. i find that to be absurd but he thinks he is and he things he

can run trump back of her. he's not running against trump, then maybe whatever, by guns will be bygones. i don't know why he is thinking that calculation or why he thinks that's realistic but i think he thinks it's his only hope. trump needs money. to your point in the last segment, depending how much of that stock, his personal wealth might be okay but his campaign is not and they're spending a ton of money on lawyers and on all these outside groups. and ron desantis didn't do very well with small dollar donors or republican voters but he did really well with rich republicans, donald trump needs him now and donald trump will make up with people when he needs them. that's a long-running habit of his. >> he did really well with rich republicans early onthen he stumbled over and over and over, and then they gave up. let's talk about a different trump tension that has arisen. he is reportedly growing tired of kari lake, saying that she's actually spending too much time with him and not enough in arizona on her own senate race. can you explain to our audience

why this is a problem for trump? because normally he doesn't care if people are focusing on their day jobs and their lives, as long as they are fanning him. but that's not the case here. why? >> i think because she reflects really poorly on him. i wouldn't want kari lake to be talking about me if she was tying herself to me, and she presents herself as poorly as it gets when it comes to these u.s. senate races. she's far too extreme. she's already lost one race and somehow the whole apparatus of the arizona republican party has kind of contorted itself and is kari lake trumpism machine again, so she's the nominee here but she's not doing anything to help herself. she's showing in this arizona abortion being with her previous comments that she was perfectly willing to go as extreme as possible and this is an electorate where they are not that extreme, so she has the holding of this 1864 abortion been hanging around her neck because previously she had kind of taken ownership of it. she's not really reflecting well on donald trump. she sees that. he can see when

someone is a loser and i think she just wants to distance from him. she, meanwhile, is just trying to tie herself to him. for we go, i've got to ask you about the dog. south dakota governor kristi noem has a book coming out, guardian. got an advance copy and now like this secret about her has leaked out. people find out she's bragging about it. she chose to write a whole piece in the book about how her dog, who was just over a year old, couldn't seem to behave. she could not train this dog so she took him to a gravel pit and shot him dead. has she just shot her political career dead? just react to this for us, please. >> rit to the dog. i never thought that she was going to get the vp pick. i think she has a lot of baggage and a lot of problems. but look, my reaction is is i think all these guys who are

doing the maga fakery thing where they try to feel we need to be tough and that's what maga voters want, so they do this performative stuff and they just missed the boat because they are faking it. and i think she thought people might think this shows her as a strong woman, who knows that's what she was thinking and it doesn't take a professional political pundit to know that talking about killing dogs is not really a winner. >> i just want to know what publisher went yes, yes, let's put this in here. it's amazing. gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. before we go to break we have an up date on the demonstrations against the israel/hamas war. protests have continued across college campuses from coast to coast. liz kreutz has the details. >> reporter: tonight at university of texas at austin, police one by one detaining pro- palestinian testers, law enforcement tying up this demonstrator with her hands, dragging them out of their encampment while screaming. the university says protesters ignored repeated direct lives from administration and that a

majority of the protesters are believed to be unaffiliated with the school. so for more than 1000 people have been arrested since the demonstrations against college campuses since the war in gaza began. at ucla, hundreds of students and faculty walking out of class in support of the protests. >> there were hundreds of them. they were not able to get to the main campus so they are now expected to storm one of the buildings here on campus. >> reporter: at columbia university, school officials telling demonstrators the administration won't agree to divest from israel and that they must leave the encampment by today or face suspension. >> we demand divestments. we will not be moved unless by force. >> reporter: nbc's mclachlan is there. >> reporter: at 2:00 p.m. deadline has arrived and this is the students marching around campus. over that way is the campus. you can see everyone there wearing neon vests, those are the faculty members and they say they're here to protect the students. >> reporter: as regulation nears, many universities taking

similar pleas to students as they continue to grapple livered the debates between free speech versus hate speech. at usc the president warning that if protesters don't leave their encampment voluntarily, the university will take action early this week. this morning some students protested outside of the president's home. meanwhile, at ucla, school officials allowing their students and kampmann to grow as the protesters call for the university to cut ties with israel. >> i think we are planning to keep the pressure up until the demands are met, until the uc divests. >> reporter: doug waxman is a professor of israel studies. he supports the students right to protest but not their demands. >> i happen think it's not likely to be effective. >> thank you liz for that report. when we return, a story everyone needs to be paying attention to. inside that deal, elon musk just struck with the government of china when the 11th hour continues. continues. but shingrix protect. only shingrix is proven over 90% effective. shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles

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a surprise visit to beijing ended in a major victory for elon musk and his company, tesla. the automaker reached a major deal to bring it's very lucrative full-service self driving feature to its cars in china. on the heels of that announcement, tesla shares soared. but whether or not you own tesla is neither here nor there. you need to understand this is we all want to know what's in it for china. joining me now to discuss, ron

insana, senior cnbc analyst and ceo of wi-fi ai. how big of a deal is this? >> it's a pretty big deal. we have an investigation into the full-service drumming or the autonomous vehicle component of tesla here in the united states after a series of crashes and yet it appears that china has approved the rollout of that autonomous driving software there, so it's really intriguing in a lot of different ways, stephanie. number one, elon musk is a government contractor here in the united states through his starling business, and more specifically a defense contractor who is also simultaneously doing business in china and had to make concessions to the chinese government in order to sustain the data that he obtains there, so it doesn't come here, just as we worry about the chinese own tick tock hitting data here and not transferring it back there. this is all very complex and to a certain extent very perplexing, as well. >> mosque likely has higher

security clearance than most u.s. ceos. we also know what mosque it's out of this deal is huge but what does china get out of it? why do they want to do it? >> it's hard to tell. it's interesting. i was thinking about this a little bit and for a historical parallel, the late armand hammer, who ran occidental petroleum for many years, since the days of lenin through the days of gorbachev, was referred to as linens capitalist and despite all the troubles in the soviet union over the years, to operate russia, elon musk seems like a similar character where he has cart lunch to go around the world and deal with adversaries of the united states without much interference. china may get access to data. it may get access to technology that would be better kept here. it's uncertain as to what they gain. it's clear what musk gains. his stock was up not just 16%, it was up 35% in the last five days so it seems to be a big

benefit to him. it's uncertain at this point what china gets out of it unless it's able to call data, although it wouldn't be about u.s. citizens, in this regard, but call data or obtain technology that they wouldn't otherwise have access to at this point in time. >> you mentioned tiktok so let's talk about it. president biden just signed a bill that forces tiktok's parent company eventually to sell the company or it will be banned here in the u.s. where does this process go from here? >> that stuff. there will be legal challenges by bite dance and others who want it to be available in the united states. there is a whole, as you know, cohort of younger people who use it quite assiduously and frequently, and they are opposed to this idea, i think en masse, and there is also the question of who could actually buy take talk from chinese company bite dance. it would be in the tens of billions of dollars in an environment here at home where the biden administration is loath to allow a lot of consolidation. you wouldn't see, for instance, a facebook buying it or a

google buying it, for instance. so is there a natural buyer over the next 9 to 12 months? will china go along with this in any way, shape or form to allow a sale? this is an open question so it's going to be very bitterly fought in courts over the next year or so. >> mr. in sohna, always good to see you. thanks for joining me. when we return, there is no need to imagine what a second front term would look like. project 2025, familiarize yourself with this. it lays out a crystal-clear blueprint for it. our next guest gives us an inside look at maga movement and its plan for the future. the 11th hour continues. contin. . call leaffilter today. and never clean out clogged gutters again. leaffilter's technology keeps debris out of your gutters for good. guaranteed.

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turn up the volume for this one because we are talking project 2025, the far right program stacked with trump allies who have written the playbook for a second front term. between now and election day we are going to read passages from that 900 page playbook so you can begin to understand just how dangerous this plan could be. here is tonight sex or. revelations regarding the fbi's role in the russia hoax of 2016, big tech collusion and the suppression of hunter biden's laptop in 2020 strongly suggest that the fbi is completely out of control. the next conservative administration should conduct an immediate, comprehensive review of all major active fbi

investigations and activities and terminate any that are unlawful or contrary to the national interest. this is straight from the playbook for donald trump's second term. but my next guest has even more reporting on what trump could do. isaac arson dorf joins me. he's a national political reporter for the washington post and author of the new book, finish what we started, the maga movement's ground war to end democracy. it is out now. this is some book. you have covered this story for months and months. i want you to start with helping us understand trump's plan and project 2025's plan as it relates to the department of justice. >> trump doesn't talk in sentences like what you read. he's not reading those chapters but that's sort of the detailed

wraparound for what trump is saying in his speeches, which is i am your retribution, and what trump is saying privately to advisors, which from our reporting is actually naming individual critics who he wants a second term justice department to investigate. >> many of the people who are spearheading project 2025 our christian nationalists. how much power could they have over a second trump term? >> the larger philosophical shift here is away from what we think of as reagan conservative orthodoxy. if the government is the problem, get it out of the way. now a way of thinking about the government called sometimes common good conservatism. how can conservatives and republicans use the government to achieve policy aims? so it's a much more assertive, aggressive, muscular use of executive power in particular and federal power more generally than we're used to seeing from conservatives, who have traditionally, historically been about small government. >> steve bannon was sort of the

original architect of the maga movement. you very rarely hear his name anymore, maybe in part because of all the legal problems he got in, raising the money for the wall, stealing the money from the people who gave to building the wall. where is he now? is he behind the scenes as a puppetmaster, even if he's not standing next to trump, double popped collar and all? >> it's more like it was back in 2015 and 16, where bannon has this role of evangelizer and media figure. he is still extremely influential in that role, called it like a far right meet the press with the podcast that he runs and there's a lot that he can do from that perch, not been officially on the campaign. >> hold on a minute, a far right meet the press? who outside the far right participates in this program? >> bannon's podcast is the number one most prestigious interview for any republican politician.

rana mcdaniel before she got toppled was doing interviews on that show. >> my god. you are saying that the maga movement has never been more disciplined or strategic. explained that to us, is the average person sees trump stumbling into court, falling asleep in his chair, and they don't think it's disciplined at all. so take us inside. >> what the movement has done, and bannon was key in popularizing this at a moment where trump was kind of out of the picture after january 6. he was in hiding at mar-a-lago for a while and it was actually the grass roots that drove this, and bannon channeled it into taking over the party organization itself. talking about the party ladder, from the rnc all the way down to the tiniest, lowliest precinct. and by channeling the movement into that party infrastructure, it gave us this structure and this organization and makes it much more durable than a cult

of personality around a single person. so no matter what's happening with trump's legal issues or with trump's campaign, the party field organization, the party pyramid itself is there and it has bottom to top transformed and unified around election denial and allegiance to trump. >> what do people misunderstand about maga? we watched the likes of bill barr, of chris sununu, who openly talk about the risk that donald trump is, the threat to democracy, and then they turn around and go, but i'm going to vote for him. >> isn't that amazing? bill barr is one of those people in our reporting, trump has singled out as wanting to prosecute and he will still vote for him. i think one of the key things i learned is how you talk about the ballot mules or the voting machines and all these things that we think about as being the allegations that spring up and get knocked down with the election being stolen are not really what it's all about, and it's really about a feeling, a belief about who america is supposed to be for and what was

supposed to happen in 2020, what's supposed to happen in 2024. but the key about purifying the party was -- >> purifying the party? >> they are actually totally right that the reason that trump failed in 2020 was because of a few republicans who wouldn't go along with its. and by the purpose of taking over the party in this way was to route all of them out and make sure that they wouldn't be there next time. >> that's the goal but so many of these far right candidates that trump keeps endorsing are losing in their elections. we have to remind our audience he's powerful within the republican party but it past memories and that guy is a stone cold loser since 2016. >> it comes down to those republicans. it's a small, vanishing slice of the electorate in a game of inches in a close election it could absolutely be decisive. these aren't the traditional republicans who don't identify as maga but definitely don't identify as democrats and they're just kind of stranded and struggling with where they're left in this new two

party system. and the way that anti-trump republicans and some democrats have learned to speak to that core constituency and build a new community out of those voters is a huge part of the story of 2022, the midterms, surprise, and will be a huge part of what happens in november, as well. >> that red wave never came go congratulations on your book. thank you so much for joining me. when we return, you can return just about anything to amazon but it is safe to say they were not expecting what they received last week. one cat's journey, 500 miles from home when the 11th hour continues. continues. plaque psoriasis. she thinks her flaky gray patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. allison! over here! otezla can help you get clearer skin and reduce itching and flaking.

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>> this box is meowing. >> let me see it. she wrapped up her cats.

>> the last thing tonight is totally insane. this box is meowing. it was a joke and national lampoon's christmas vacation, a favorite movie of mine. but earlier this month it was a reality for a totally devastated utah couple. blayne alexander has the details. >> reporter: if every cat has nine lives, little helena shirley relied on every single one. >> she loves to play inboxes. >> reporter: but nearly 3 weeks ago galena found herself in a rather harry situation when she decided to take refuge here, the very box her parents, utah couple matt and kerry clark, were using to return a few items to amazon. they taped the box shut and took it back, all before realizing galena was nowhere to be found. >> she just mysteriously disappeared. they put tons of flyers up. we contacted friends and family to help us search.

>> reporter: turns out helena's great adventure took her much farther from home. tucked in her box, she may be more than 600 mile journey from salt lake city, utah, to riverside, california, where she then spent six days in an amazon packaging facility, unbeknownst to anyone, no food, no water. all the makings of a catastrophic shipping blunder, if not for amazon employee brandy hunter, a self- proclaimed cat lady. she tracked down the clarks thanks to galena's microchipped, then treated her new feline friend to a little tlc and a trip to the vet, where she was reunited with a very relieved pair of cat parents. call it the perfect ending for a very curious cat. blayne alexander, nbc news. >> i told you it was bananas and on that note i wish you a very good night. coming up this weekend, my colleagues jordy reed and rachel maddow. you do not want to miss