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i will see you back here tomorrow at 5 p.m. eastern for another light hour of politics nation. starting now, the saturday so with jonathan capehart begins now. judging the judges. growing outrage over supreme court justice samuel alito and the upside down flag seen outside his home. a symbol used by some election deniers. why is raising more questions about the high court's credibility. ranking member is here to talk about that. donald trump's first criminal trial could wrap up

next week. harry litman have been inside the courtroom and came out with what's to come including whether trump will actually take the stand. republicans gone wild. from flocking to trump's trial to hurling insults at committee meetings congressional chaos reaches a whole new level as congresswoman marjorie taylor green triggers this epic klatt back from congresswoman jasmine crockett. >> someone on this committee starts talking about somebody's bleach blonde budget body that would not be engaging in personalities. >> what now? >> i'm jonathan capehart, this is a bleach blonde bad built but body addition of the saturday show.

in the coming weeks the supreme court will hand down rulings into pivotal cases related to the violent january 6th insurrection including whether donald trump has sweeping immunity from criminal prosecution. decisions that will have enormous implications for american democracy. in a new revelation is reigniting grave concerns if not fear about the impartiality of the high court's conservative super majority. on thursday, the new york times reported that neighbors of justice samuel alito snapped photos of an upside down american flag flying outside of the home in virginia. the pictures were taken on january 17th 2021 days before president biden's inauguration and days after writers stormed the capital. since the nation's founding, and inverted flag has been widely record highs as a sign of distress and it's also been used as a symbol of protest by the right and left. after the 2020 election some

trump supporters co-opted upside down flags in support of the stop the steel movement. there are images of writers at the capital holding them. it's no wonder according to the times some of justice alito's neighbors believed the flag was a political statement. they say his wife martha and alito had been in a dispute with another family on their block over their anti-trump signed that included an expletive. in response justice alito told the times i had no involvement whatsoever in the flying of the flag. it was briefly placed by mrs. alito in response to a neighbor's use of objectionable and personally insulting language on yard signs. neighbors say the flag was up for several days. even if we take alito at his word here it doesn't alleviate concerns of political bias on the court. as the new york times points out while the flag was up the court was still contending with

whether to hear a 2020 election case with justice alito on the losing end of that decision. we see justice alito wanted to take up that case involving mail-in ballots and pennsylvania. now senate majority and house democratic leader are calling on justice alito to recuse himself from all cases related to the 2020 election including trumps presidential immunity case. if this call for recusal sounds familiar it's because we've heard it before. justice clarence thomas is also facing calls to recuse himself from cases involving trump and the 2020 election after it was revealed his wife, conservative activist jenny thomas, was at the stop the steel rally on january 6th and pressured lawmakers to overturn president biden's victory. the fact is there's no way to force either justice to recuse themselves or to hold either when accountable.

critics argue that has to change especially since public trust in the high court is the lowest it's been in more than three decades. as my next guest point out on and off the bench, our supreme court is waste deep in maga. joining me now is jamie raskin of maryland, inc. and member of the house oversight committee, former lead house impeachment manager and author of unthinkable, trauma trees and the trials of american democracy. thank you very much for coming to the saturday show. your reaction to this story and justice alito's response. >> justice alito's response makes it clear he understands that it was a political symbol to turn the american flag upside down. it's a universal symbol of political distress and in this case of specific opposition to the inauguration of joe biden.

it's what the maga right was calling for. if it were not a very clear political symbol whose meaning was well understood justice alito would not have gone through great pains to blame everything on his wife. the u.s. supreme court is the only court in the federal judiciary and the land that does not have a binding ethics code where you can actually go and complain to some tribunal about what's happening. what we need is to have at the very least an ethics panel of federal circuit judges from around the country who we can bring complaints to of bias in the very likely event justice alito does not decide to heed the calls to recuse himself from this case. it's a very clear conflict of interest. >> what you're talking about, is that a provision or provisions in the judicial ethics enforcement act of 2020

for you and your democratic colleagues introduced in committee? i'm wondering how would that hold justices accountable and has the bill had a committee hearing yet? >> no, under the republicans there have been no hearings on any of the ethics reform regulation pertaining to the supreme court. that is a provision and it is one of the very strong ideas we have. another possibility is to create an inspector general for the u.s. supreme court to be reviewing all of the very and adequate financial disclosures that travel the junkets. if you are in the u.s. house of representatives or u.s. senate members don't even go to starbucks and accept free coffee from a lobbyist. if you're on the supreme court there are members taking

automobile, stagecoaches, private school tuition for family members, they are helping to pay for family members property. the billionaire sugar daddies and that federalist society ecosystem are able to fasten onto particular justices and the ethical temperature there has just plummeted. so, as the supreme court drives to the right the specific members get more and more lax both about their own political commitments, but also their own financial entanglements with the billionaire class. >> i would take it the answer to my question should justice alito, for that matter justice thomas, recuse themselves from election in 2020 related cases your answer would be yes. >> of course they should.

as we were just saying, the house of representatives is not doing anything to try to improve the situation. they are protecting the chaos and ethical collapse of the supreme court. we are going to try to have to deal with this through elections and assertion of popular power because we have a completely corrupt governing class going right up to the supreme court. >> we have to talk about the chaos that erupted on thursday that you were smack in the middle of as we saw in the opening at the house oversight and accountability committee markup on the resolution to hold in contempt. let's watch another piece. >> do you know what we are here for? >> i don't think you know what you're here for. i think your fake eyelashes are messing up. >> called on. >> order. order.

order. >> i do have a point of order and i would like to move to take down the screen's words. that is absolutely an expectable. how dare you attack the physical appearance of another person. move her words down. girl, baby girl. don't even play. >> okay, for folks who don't know when you hear a woman of color proceed anything with baby girl you better run. congressman raskin, you said in that clip that's beneath even you miss green. how shocked were you by this behavior? >> the thing about discussion in a parliamentary body which is by definition filled with a lot of emotion and passion is you can talk about substance, you can talk about process, you can invoke science, culture,

literature. the one thing you cannot do is to engage in ad hominem personal attacks. you cannot insult someone's looks. in the united states house of representatives. the democrats moved immediately to have her words taken down. the chair of the committee did not have the moral authority or leadership within his own ranks to be able to do it because they are all afraid of marjorie taylor greene. she basically is constantly threatening she's going to turn her millions of twitter followers on anybody who gets in her way. they refused to take her words down and to keep her from speaking for the rest of the hearing. i told the chairman, if you allow it to go down the road of personal insult and ad hominem attacks i've never seen a chair allow that to happen there will be no end. we will dissolve into chaos.

we did. >> real quick, one must question that committee meeting was actually postponed from 10 a.m. to 8 p.m. so that republican committee members could attend donald trump's new york trial. how did you feel about that? >> terrible. it was supposed to be set for 11 a.m. , they changed it in the middle of the night so everybody's schedules were thrown into chaos. they skipped out on their actual legislative duties, they missed -- a number mr. votes on that floor of the house of representatives and came back and it was just a frat house atmosphere. all they really wanted to do was to provoke and taunt our members. marjorie taylor greene obviously was the lead in doing that. one member of their side who voted with us not to allow marjorie taylor greene to persist in her antics and

provocation. good for lowering -- lauren boberg but marjorie taylor greene now is like donald trump in that she is lawless, incorrigible, she is provocative, all she wants is the limelight and they refused to deal with that problem. they will not hurt her in any way. >> congressman jamie raskin, thank you very much for coming to the saturday show. >> thank you, great to be with you. coming up, ethical concerns about the supreme court don't stop with justices alito and thomas. how the courts conservative super majority is using a legal doctrine to twist the constitution and unravel american progress legal and political analyst is here to discuss her article. what we can expect as donald trump's criminal trial moves into its final phase.

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the upside down flag, a symbol used by some trump supporting election deniers that the new york times reports flew outside the home of justice alito in 2021 isn't the only controversy testing the legitimacy of the supreme court. my next guest rights this warning about the court, america is being held captive by a small stupid perpetually changing theory of variously known as original is in. regionalism is a legal doctrine that aliens to -- based on their understanding at the time of ratification in 1788. just reviewed back then enslavement was legal, women had almost little legal standing and only white landowning men were allowed to vote. forget about same-sex marriage. currently it's being used by the courts conservative super

majority to favor laws that push an unpopular far right agenda on a host of issues including guns, abortion and our elections. as dahlia lithwick points out , originalism is the invisible force that allows a handful of unaccountable jurists to unravel both progress and understanding along with the wants of the majority. joining me now is dahlia lithwick, legal correspondent at slate msnbc law and politics analyst and host of the podcast. she is also the author of lady justice, women, the law and the battle to save america. welcome back to the saturday show. let's start with justice alito in a piece you cowrote. you say samuel alito's explanations for his wife's upside down american flag make the story even worse. how? >> as representative raskin just said, throwing your wife under the bus has to be just

the saddest defense i've ever heard. the notion that, as he said when he clarified the story with a reporter from fox news, the problem was the neighborhood was roiled in politics. his decision or his wife's decision was to respond by punching back with politics is the definition of the problem. if this were just he didn't like the way a tree was falling over his property and said this is just a neighbor dispute then i suppose we could shrug and say he had to do the flag but it's over nothing. the fact that this was over the election itself and he decided to perform an act of resistance to the election result is the definition of what looks like improper behavior. i think in some sense he served himself not at all but further sort of indicating this was a

political fight and that it's his wife's fault but he decided it was a good idea while he was hearing cases about the legitimacy of the election. >> let's talk about your slate piece on originalism because it's part of a larger series on how legal theory is basically holding our country hostage. you write no system of law that relies on stability, predictability and consistency can function when history means merely whatever five amateur historians decided means at any given moment. how have the conservative justices used originalism to twist the constitution so far? >> there's two parts. one is we don't quite know what originalism means anymore when it was kind of invented or really flapped as a great legal idea in the 1980s. it meant original public meeting, it -- original intent.

what the framers wanted the constitution to say. that became too tricky because multiple framers wanted different things then it becomes original public meeting , the under standards of the constitution. now we are in this weird text and history moment where we are trying to decide and that's why they keep pulling out dusty dictionaries. we are going to find a dictionary definition we like. it's not even a stable test, but i think to your main question the problem we are having with originalism is it's a little bit like that back to the future car where it depends where you said yourself back in history. this week alone with the supreme court thankfully upheld the cfpb in the way it was funded we had an originalist decision by justice thomas saying the cfpb is funded constitutionally, we had an originalist by elena kagan's

saying this is what recent history would demand and we had an originalist to send a justices alito. it depends on when you spin the history wheel and where you get back to. in addition to rejecting everything that has happened since the framing it also means you just pick your own historical moment and that is the outcome you get. that's not how we do constitutional law. it is deeply destabilizing. >> we are waiting on more than two dozen decisions from the supreme court including president trump's immunity case. how do you expect originalism to play into the outcome of that decision? >> it's a great question and it kind of connects with what representative raskin was saying which is this is not just justice alito scandal, this is a federalist society scandal, this is a scandal about a conservative super majority that is overturning things that are the will of the people. what i think we are going to see is a bunch of cases where originalism is used to set the

clock back. we have two major gun cases still to be decided, two major abortion cases still to be decided and a case that i think that is worth thinking about for a second that sets aside the removing of a gun from a domestic abuser, a man abusing his partner because there was no such thing as domestic violence at the time of the founding. this is a horrible prospect for the end of the term. >> dahlia lithwick, thank you very much for coming to the saturday show. another dramatic week ahead of the courtroom for donald trump and his former fixer michael cohen who returns to the stand on monday after a contentious cross-examination. the takeaways plus what we can expect as the trial nears its conclusion. all that after the break.

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the first criminal trial of the twice impeached four times indicted disgraced ex-president is heading into its final days. former trump fixer michael cohen returns to the stand monday to testify to his role into the alleged hush money payments to stormy daniels. perhaps then the prosecution will seek to get cohen to clarify the discrepancy that emerged thursday during his cross-examination by trump defense attorney todd blanche. the one where he dramatically accused cohen of lying during his testimony earlier in the week about in october 2016 phone call which the prosecution characterized as a conversation between cohen and trump regarding hush money payment. according to records there is a possibility the conversation was between cohen and trump bodyguard keith schiller about a series of prank calls to and from a 14-year-old. the possibility of more dramatic moments might be coming to an end. judge rochon has set closing remarks -- arguments to begin as early as tuesday with jury deliberation to follow.

former deputy assistant attorney general and los angeles times legal affairs colleges and fellow at just security both were in the courtroom this week. thank you very much for being here. despite thursday's contentious cross-examination is to instill a credible witness? >> i think so. among other things, he was really kind of calm and unperturbed even at this one moment where he was flummoxed a little and what he eventually said his perhaps i spoke both to schiller. we knew he had called schiller but to talk to trump they showed he must have also been talking to schiller and he thinks it was maybe both. i think it rattled him a bit but he was pretty calm even then and he has remained that way throughout. something to keep in mind is the redirect could be effective. compare stormy daniels when the

d.a. came back in and 90 minutes really shored up everything. that is their job now. cohen needs to follow their lead. >> you know, i was going to ask about this but i will skip ahead. a slew of maga republicans ascended upon the new york courthouse this week hoping to prove their allegiance to donald trump. do you think their appearance in the courtroom will have any kind of impact on the jury? i'm wondering if their presence could be considered jury intimidation. >> it's an interesting question. they were sitting in the courtroom just in the front row and sometimes one row behind them. it's fair the jury cannot miss seeing them, but they are there, they have a right to attend the trial just like any other member of the courtroom. here's where it gets interesting. they are there in trump's own words at one of his conferences

as surrogates. it becomes a question of whether the prosecutors find that they are making remarks as surrogates that trump himself cannot say because the order does say he cannot make or direct others to make statements. let me be absolutely clear, i find it unlikely that it will escalate in this matter just because for that to happen the judge made absolutely clear the prosecutors need to make the request and they need to prove it to him and both seem reluctant. they will be listening closely ever since trump said the word surrogate. >> on that point listen to what some of trump's loyalists said on thursday. >> this gag order is to ensure he cannot defend himself fairly. we are here to have his back, defend him. >> there are things we can say that president trump is

unjustly not allowed to say. >> i take adam's point that it would take the prosecution to go to the judge and say this violates the gag order. i'm not a lawyer, you are. do those statements, we just showed a snippet. a budget said the same thing especially going after the judges daughter. how is that not a violation of trump's gag order given what adam pointed out where trump said these are his surrogates? >> he's got jurisdiction over trump, not over this red tie crowd. for the jury, by the way, trump has a huge entourage. i don't think it even registers on them. he can't reach directly so what he has to find is that trump is directing them to do it. that would be elisha naked of the gag order. we are close to the and. it is by a lot of trouble i

think judge merchan is likely to let it pass and make them make their little proclamation outside the courtroom. >> former trump executive adam weisel berg and been mentioned frequently throughout the trial but they're not expected to testify. quickly, will the jury noticed the lack of testimony from them and do you think the jury is expecting to hear from trump directly? excuse me. >> you're allergic to trump. >> i do think they certainly noticed. these are figures we have heard so much about weisel berg notes. they are a powerful piece of evidence and have been identified twice with keith schiller. he is a central person in these and someone who is in the defense making a lot about this october 24th phone call.

if the defense is going to say why didn't the prosecution call these witnesses i expect the prosecution will say that while the prosecution has the burden these witnesses are available to the defense as well and so far as i can tell they are on no one's list. >> quickly, yes or no, will donald trump take the stand in his own defense? >> no. >> okay. thank you both very much. my apologize for seizing interfaces. take you for coming back to the show. up next, president biden gets donald trump to agree to two presidential debates. how that can change the campaign season this year and how trump wants to make some of his own rules now. we discussed that with our political panel after the break and tomorrow tune in to watch battleground georgia the latest installment of the turning point documentary series from executive producer trevor noah.

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(ella) we get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (jen) that's enterprise intelligence. (vo) it's your vision, it's your verizon. donald trump lust to debate simeon 2020 and since then he hasn't shown up for a debate. now he's acting like he wants to debate me again. make my day. i'll even do it twice. let's pick the dates, donald. i hear you're free on wednesdays. >> the shade. that was president biden earlier this week calling donald trump's bluff by agreeing to debate him twice. the biden and trump campaign opted to privately agree to a debate hosted by cnn on june 27th and another hosted by abc news on september 10th. trump then demanded biden attend two additional debates but the president refused saying the debate about debates is over.

at an event in minnesota last night trump also demanded that president biden agreed to a drug test before the first debate. this is a follow-up on trump's completely baseless claims that biden used drugs for his state of the union address. you go first, donald. joining me now former top aide to former vice president mike pence and the democratic strategist of former obama campaign adviser. thank you for coming to the saturday show. olivia, do you think trump will actually show up to either debate? >> i think it is a 50-50 shot. i think he will keep us guessing. i think he will tease it out until the very end and i think until he actually walks through that door there is no telling what he'll do. >> the first debate will come before either party is nominating and the second debate will come before early voting begins. isn't this actually better for voters?

>> i think so. i say give him all the runway. give donald trump plenty of runway so he can show his true colors again and remind the american people of what a trump presidency would look like because that's what you're going to get. i think it's an opportunity for joe biden to shine and talk about his policies, talk about what he has planned for the next four years and let trump go off about whatever he will say about squirrels and stolen elections and witchhunts and whatever else he will throw at us. yeah. >> i see you nodding. what do you want to add? >> i agree with you. i think this is actually a very good thing for voters because it gives them a head of early voting, a chance to really understand what the policy platforms are but also gives trump a chance to hang himself. in addition to that it puts what matters to the american people on front street before

they've actually cast their votes. i think this is a great calendar and i don't know why the presidential debate commission didn't think of this before. >> tonight at trump addressing the nra convention and he attacked democrats, president biden. president biden's speaking skills. watch this. >> they are going to do a zoom convention i hear. they are blaming the pickets, the riots, whatever they might want to blame. the problem is he doesn't want to get up and speak. he can't walk from that stair to this podium. he can't put two scents together. >> that is so much projection going on and what trump was saying. when preparing for a debate shouldn't he -- don't you usually downplay your own skills before a debate and not the skills of your opponent? biden will walk on that stage standing tall and walking with

purpose to the podium. he will have totally blown up what donald trump just said. >> absolutely. what donald trump is doing in addition to projecting is still butt hurt over the state of the union address. him and the republicans ran such a negative ad, campaign address, everything related to that being a failure and then president biden came out and was a shining star followed up by a very awful and quite frankly creepy republican response. here, donald trump needs to be mitigating his own disaster. joe biden can walk, talk and policy at the same time. he's in georgia right now proving that, he's circled the country and been at the battleground states. he is getting people fired up. there is nothing that points to this being a moment where he would fall flat. if anything, donald trump who is not a conventional debater who is not someone who follows any rules anyway who now will be in a space where moderators will cut off your mike, where

there is no audience to get him going he is the one who is going to have a tough time. >> i was going to ask about rfk junior but we don't have time. this is for both of you. i want to turn to the trump criminal trial in new york. do you think the reporting on trump's court case is having any effect on the electorate? >> i would like to see a conviction because i think the voters are kind of watching that and trying to make decisions on that. honestly, when he goes out and does his press conferences which i call his political rallies because that's the only place he can kind of campaign right now because he's too busy with all the criminality he's done throughout his life and being held accountable for it. what i am watching is whether his surrogates and all these people and the republican party that decided they are going to go there and sell their souls to this man even though they are sitting there embarrassing themselves because they are basically protecting someone

who is going under trial for crimes that he has himself done. i'm curious to see how that resonates with republican voters. do they like that for the republican party? i can tell you as someone who comes from a republican background i sure don't because i think it is just another day of damage to the brain. >> i think there are fewer enlightened like olivia choi out there voting. for the general public, for those swing voters, the undecided voters i'm not sure this is necessarily moving them. if we here in the next couple weeks there is an actual conviction i think that could have some leverage but thus far the majority of americans have not been following this day by day and it not being televised in the courtroom i think lost a little flavor for people. they are more interested in housing costs going up, kitchen table issues, women's reproductive rights. they aren't following the ins and outs.

>> i ask that question because i wonder will this have the same impact as the january 6th elect committee hearings did over the course of 10 incredible hearings and you pointed out the key difference between that and what we are seeing now. the select committee was on television. olivia troye, ameshia cross thank you for coming to the saturday show. we will have to do this again. a memoir on how a poster child became an antiracist activist. the author joins me live in studio with their extraordinary personal story after the break. complete nutrition you need... ...without the stuff you don't. so, here's to now. boost. you know, i spend a lot of time thinking about dirt. at three in the morning. any time of the day. what people don't know is that not all dirt is the same. you need dirt with the right kind of nutrients.

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a revealing new memoir offers a stunning story of transformation that is very relevant in our current political climate. in the klansman's son derek black recounts their journey to break free from the white power movement that their family embraced as the child of a ku klux klan grand wizard and godchild of former leader david duke, black grew up as the heir to a white nationalist dynasty but when black attended new college of florida they began to question the racist beliefs they once espoused and eventually renounced white supremacy. they began exploring their gender identity. now as an antiracist advocate black rights by going through my experiences of community,

legacy and family i hope to show the ways these things have not only shaped me but also drive change from the larger social movements to the smallest individual relationships. joining me now is derek black, author of the klansman's son my journey from white nationalism to antiracism. it is great to see you. we first met because of someone else's book about you. my colleague eli wrote up his book about you. talk about your book and meeting into the white power. >> i was really glad i was able to take the amount of time to write it. this is the first time in my life i think i had enough context and distance from the upbringing that i lived my whole life to even understand what was it, how was it effect society, where did it come from. i feel like my family and i were a part of a larger history that i now realize everybody is

implicated and connected with. it's not something that is marginal or extreme, it's something that is at the core of our country. >> you write in your memoir your new college community, especially jewish students, helped you renounce white nationalism. i was going to ask was very specific turning point during your time on campus? i know there was a turning point but talk about that. >> i had grown up in that movement. i take responsibility. i was 10 years old the first time i gave an interview advocating white nationalism so i look back and say how much can a 10-year-old possibly have known? by the time i went to college i believed it, i thought it was correct in all these fake science ways and i showed up at a college that was outraged by it. it was a small social justice college, and i spent years there dealing with ostracism and condemnation and also a small community of people specifically through a dinner who were willing to sit with me

and answer my initial question of is there some misunderstanding? i don't want to be somebody who harms other people. is there some way they don't get me, they don't understand this. years of that led to the conclusion that there's not a misunderstanding, i need to change who i am and what i believe and what i'm doing. >> in your book you credit your new college community for helping you grapple with your gender identity and you write that it's culture and people i met there that help me except that i fit under the trans umbrella. >> i have my trans pain i feel very good showing up in spaces. it's been years of feeling comfortable and it's something i didn't write enough about in the book. it's a the one thing if i could go back a few years and if i were starting to write it now i would describe it more. it's something that has been a part of my life in various ways throughout my life, but the long way with growing up in the far right movement but also growing up in america, a

country that legitimately has been not inclusive of gender in specs of this sort of forget the difference between launching something and not being able to do it. it's really only been in adulthood as i've experienced a new community that i felt that i reassessed what it could mean to live authentically and why it was a better way to live. >> we have less than 30 seconds left but i can't have you here and not ask given your family and your family history, their reaction to the book and to you coming out as trans. >> it's been disappointing and i've had to face a bunch of trans-public slurs from my family this week. i don't know. it has been disappointing but also reminded me that i no longer have to live in that household, i'm no longer the kid who was afraid of talking to them about stuff and i can lean into the community i felt now. >> derek, he became a hero of

mine because of eli's book and now you're even more so because of your own book, the klansman's son my journey from white nationalism to antiracism. derek black, thank you for coming to the saturday show. we will be back with more of the saturday show after the break here on msnbc. and cultural treasures. because when you experience europe on a viking longship, you'll spend less time getting there and more time being there. viking. exploring the world in comfort. you know what's brilliant? boring. think about it. boring is the unsung catalyst for bold. what straps bold to a rocket and hurtles it into space? boring does. boring makes vacations happen, early retirements possible, and startups start up. because it's smart, dependable, and steady.

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democrats are unlikely to save speaker johnson's job the next time his republicans try to throw him under the bus. that is tomorrow at 6 p.m. eastern here on msnbc. follow us on tiktok and threads using the handle. you can also catch clips of the show on youtube and listen to every episode of our show as a podcast for free. just scan the qr code you see on your screen to follow and listen anytime. keep it here. hi. >> every week i'm watching the trump trial here in new york and i'm wondering to myself how much lower our republicans going to take themselves in order to placate and please their coleader donald trump but i have to say watching what happened this week outside the courthouse was probably one of the lowest

i