the zionist movement you write applied a highly developed understanding of global politics uh later on in the book you are an advisor to in i believe in oslo with a plo and you so in in madrid. never had anything to do with usla, but this is a problem even today that the uh the the inability on the part of the dominant palestinian leadership to understand, understanding the systems they were, especially the united states and europe, absolutely. um, it was failing of the palestine leadership in the 20s, 30s and the 40s, there were few people had some a understanding, but basically they were the...

they were they were not, they were not very clear on some of the global elements of power uh that often determined outcomes in palestine, and that was also true to a very large extent of the plo leadership that develops starting in the 50s and 60s, takes of over the palestinian national movement in the mid 60s and is dominant until until the end of the oslo period and at the end of the 1990s and a remnant of... is still there in ramal uh, to my way of thinking, these people's understanding, especially of the united states and western europe, is is sorely lacking. um, unlike the leaders of the zionist movement, most of whom originated in the west, or spent a great deal of time in the west, um, people like jaim weitzman who was a british subject, i mean, he was, he was an immigrant to britain, but he he understood british politics and british british society,

of my ear she understood american society, she she was born in eastern europe, but she came to the united states as young woman, she spoke perfect english, i once heard her speak, she was very convincing, very authoritative, um, very actually charismatic, but understood the society she was dealing with, and that was generally true of people like hertzel, hertzel was a vienese, he understood european society, he understood of european power politics, because he was a european, um, and that gave the zionist movement an enormous advantage. uh when you have people like abaeman, trained in oxford, born speaking english, uh, you have a an enormous advantage uh, this is an advantage that certainly the palestinians did not have in the 20s, 30s and 40s and i would argue did not have during the whole period where the plo dominated the palestinian national movement, because um, even though there were people like edward said or myself who knew western societies, we were not decision makers, we at best they occasionally listen

to our advice, but unfortunately quite rarely. let's talk about the rise of uh, i don't want any other word for it, jewish fascism a jabatinski, i think mussolini at one point praised jabatinski as a good fascist, it's always been there, one of the first stories i covered was merikahana in israel, this fascistic rabbi, he was uh, but israel banned his party, i think it was in 1994, the cock party. um and now that virulent strain, overtly racist, it's all come out, especially in the netanyahu government, talk about that strain within zionism and its political triumph, well there are two elements, one is the anti-democratic element and one is the racist element, um, the anti-democratic element was not uh prevalent uh, except in so far as it had to do with arabs. in other words, there was a

high degree of tolerance for democratic diversity in israel in so far as the jewish population was concerned, the arab population from 1948 onwards for 18 years was under military government, and so you had democratic regime for jews and a military government for arabs, now they could vote, but they had to check in with the with the general security services, the shabak in order to travel from one town to another or in order to get certain jobs, so you had a a police state, i wouldn't call it fascist, a police state regime for palestinian citizens of the state of israel for the first 18 years of its existence, and vibrant democracy for jews. now the strain of anti-democratic thinking, of jewish supremacy, and of a willingness to cut, cut corners as far as democracy is concerned, or to completely abandon democracy, as you said develops with rabani who is assassinated at one point, but his thinking lives on and as you said, party

and later on in the two right-wing parties that are central to the current government coalition. these are essentially anti-democratic parties um as well as being jewish supremacist and that that that that links to a a broader um set of issues, which i don't think have anything to do with fascism specifically, which have to do with colonialism, which have to do with a colonial, racist, colonial attitude uh towards the palestinians. the palestinians are lesser people, the palestinians don't have the same rights or shouldn't have the same rights as jews, um, and the palestinians either don't exist, or if they exist, they have to accept a subordinate position. um, israel builds itself uh, as a state that is both.

territory from the river to the sea, with privileges and rights for all jewish citizens and a diminishing scale of rights, some for palestinian citizens of the state of israel, fewer rights for palestinians who live in occupied arabic jerusalem, which israel annexed after the 67 war, and no rights for

the several million palestinians who live in the occupied ter in the territories that have been occupied now for 56 years, the longest military occupation in modern history. "you talk a lot about the the repression on the part of israel towards palestinian resistance movements, the first indifata, which i covered, largely non-violent, the second in defada was not non-violent, you're very critical of the tactics used in the second in defada, you get the march of return uh up to the fence in the border of gaza where israeli snipers are shooting medics and journalists and children and um, but you you make point that..." some ways the repression is harsher against the non-violent movements, why? because it's convenient to picture the palestins as terrorists, and because non-violence has the danger of winning the sympathy of western countries, when you can put the palestinians into a terrorist box

instead of saying this is resistance to occupation or this is resistance to set for colonialism, which is what it is of course, and can picture them as terrorists, which is something that really um became most successful under under sharon prime minister ariel sharon uh in in the in the period immediately after 9/11 when he hooked israel up with the american war on global war on terror um if you can do that uh you can deny that they have any any that they should be a party to anything they're terrorists you can't talk to them um obviously uh this is this is this was tactic adopted by by netanyahu who who supply and surreptitiously was supporting uh hamas rule in the gaza strip as means both of separating the west bank from the gaza strip as means of sustaining and and deepening the divisions in palestinian politics between ramala and and gaza between the palestinian authority and

between the hamas government in gaza and as means of avoiding any negotiations well they're split and this this lot are terrorists we can't talk to them therefore no negotiations therefore we continue annexation, we continue colonization, we continue dispossessing palestinians in the west bank, which is the objective of this and most israeli governments really since 1967 in different forms over time, so so the terrorism label, which again has been trotted out starting on on october 6th with with the hamas attack out of the gaza strip is extraordinarily useful for. waiking western elites, which are you know largely accepting of an israeli analysis which alides completely occupation, which allides completely the oppression that's a necessary daily part of occupation, the violence that is necessary daily part of occupation, and

completely completely eliminates from view the fact that this is setler colonial process to take over as much as palestine as possible and to squeeze the palestinians into smaller and smaller spaces if they cannot be pushed out of palestine entirely. 2.1 hamas was elected in a fair election, in i think 2006, israel imposed this siege or blockade, and secondly, the pa as you palestinan authority as you point out in your book really functions as little more than a colonial police force. let's let's talk about the current israeli government. many of the figures within this government have long called for the youphobistic term is transfer, but massive ethnic cleansing. um, and of course, the b administration has given the netanyahu government kind of not only a green light, but supporting it with what 10 or $13 billion dollars and supplemental military aid, we already give israel $3 billion a

year, 3.8 billion, 3.8 and so let's talk about this government, are we essentially seen uh even more draconian version of the nakba? um, but as you said, these figures are were spawned by kahana, and this move... movement and they have long advocated for uh removing not just the palestinians under occupation but even palestinians with israeli citizenship right? mean these trends in israeli society include uh not just jewish supremacy on the right, but uh a desire since the beginning uh to carry out demographic. transformations of the country, i mean that was essential, you can't create a jewish state in a majority arab country without

bringing in more jewish, a larger jewish population and decreasing the arab population, it's just the logic of a jewish state uh an arab country, an overwhelming the arab country um up until 1948, um and what you see today uh under this government that came into office early in this early this year elected in december of last year and cut came into power uh after coalition negotiations early early in 2023 uh has been accelerated drive for uh the colonization of the west bank and and arabi's jerusalem um and and since this war began on october 6th a desire to as much as possible push palestinians out of the gaza strip um i think... "this is seen, this was seen as an opportunity, the atrocities that were

perpetrated at the beginning of this attack by the attackers or by the people came in behind the attackers, um, were were gave the israeli right and opportunity to carry out another phase of ethnic cleansing. now we don't only know this from their statements, we know this from the fact that american diplomacy played in my view a disgraceful role in trying..." to convince both the egyptian and the jordanian governments to take in populations that israel would displace, would kick out of the gaza strip and possibly also the west bank. um, we know this not only from the angry rejections by the egyptian government and the jordanian government and the saudi government and every other arab government of these ideas, and from the retractions by the biden administration as soon as they saw that angry reaction. we know that from

relations from the gaza strip, as everybody in the arab world knows and everybody in the world should know, when israel expels palestinians from palestine, they never are allowed to return, and the egyptian and governments understood this perfectly, and they were not going to go along with this, and they treated lincoln with the contempt that he deserved when he tried to pedal this idea to them, and the united states eventually retreated from that, and the president has repeatedly said now, since then or we will not accept the expulsion of palestinis from gaza. the us government was privy to. party to complicit an israeli plan to do just that in the first week or so of

this war, as is evidence by the budget request put before congress on the 20th of october, you can go to page 40 of it, have look, it's it's unequivocal, united states was asking for money for operations outside of gaza, and anybody kicked out of palestine ever by israeli ethnic cleansing is not allowed to return, that's the whole, this is not, this is not in other words a temporary measure, nor was it meant by to be a temporary measure, you can read what the israeli intelligence ministry said, you can read what various israeli ministers have said, the intention was to ethnically cleanse as much as possible of the gazin population. uh, since then, the the the those ambitions have been reduced because the arab governments wouldn't go along and the united states pulled back, and now what seems to be intended is to squeeze the population of the gaza strip into a smaller and smaller part of that of that very tiny 20 mile long area. i just want to close by asking why both within the republican party and the democratic party

there is such blind support for the netanyahu government, where where does it? come from, it's, i, i, i, i don't know that it's in our strategic interest to alienate the muslim world at this level, uh, it will take us years to regain any kind of trust throughout the arab world and the muslim world, but what is, what is it engine, what is it, why is it happening? that's a very hard question to answer, and i think that it has multiple answers. i think that first of all, there is difference between the party leadership in the democratic. party and the the base. um, and there's a difference between democrats and republicans. republicans are much, much more supportive of israel. this partly may be due to christian zionism, to the zeal with which some evangelicals look upon the return the jewish people to the holy land. um, it may have to do with the um, the appreciation

for muscular, colonial, racist aggressiveness that israel displays. on the part of some republicans um, at the top, however, of both parties, i think it has to do with the fact that people of a certain generation were led to believe things that israel wanted them to believe uh, in a time in the 60s and 70s and 80s when you we're talking about a jarentocracy, look at look at the leadership in the senate, look at the leadership uh, look at the president, these are people whose views were formed in the 60s and 70s when the only narrative available was an israeli narrative, so they believe everything is... please tell them whatever fairy tales they're led to believe um they swallow hookline and sinker the the the the difference is a generational difference and the difference is between the bases of the two political parties, the democratic party has very broad and disperate base, and most elements of that base are much more skeptical of israeli

claims and are much more critical of israel than is the democratic party leadership. so the president, the people around him, the leadership in the house and the senate are solidly pro israel, um, in the democratic party as in the republican party, that's money too, i mean, the apac just announced that they're going to spend hundred million dollars to defeat rashida talib and few others who have called for a cease fire, their major donors, i mean the the and these powerful, we've seen these billionaire hedge fund owners at harvard and... colombia and upen use that the power of the money, i mean the the response on the part of the presidents of harvard and upen is they've just groveled before these, of course they don't run the universities, the board of trustees run the universities, but it's also the the weight of that kind of money and the fact that we live in a system a political system of legalized bribery, exactly. i mean,

i would say that this is true right across all of the centers of power in our society. i mean, the politician. are bought and bought and paid for um they they they can only exist with donations uh that finance their political campaigns from the president on down to you know city council members um that's true of corporations uh that's true of of universities that's true of the art world that's true you know they're dependent on donors um and it it it has it has played itself out in universities in a in a quite terrible way um the concerns of jewish students and their understandable worry about anti-semitism has been conflated with their concerns about palestinian advocacy and universities have been extremely solicitos of that. palestinian and pro-palestinian students who include jewish students and minority students and arab students have been treated in a relatively cavalier fashion and

if you look around the country, you've had a palestinian child murdered in the chicago suber. institute of the university, which is understandable and legitimate for the concerns of some jewish students does not extend to other students, including jewish students, feel put upon by the fact that not only does the government blindly support israel, not only does the media blindly support israel, not only is there a general atmosphere in corporations we won't hire this person if they signed a petition in support

of palestine, but the university administrations are hostile to uh and so they they are they feel unprotected, students who are supportive of palestine, which in many campuses are majority of students at at colombia, at brown, at many other universities, resolutions in support of divestment from companies that... support the israeli occupation passed with overwhelming majorities, and i think that's a democratic indication of where a lot of students sentiment was when those when those when those votes took place, sometimes several years ago, but if you look at many campuses, the support for palestinian rights is at least as great if not greater than support for israel uh today, even after even after the shock of the attacks of the 6th of october when there was enormous sympathy in american society. generally for israelis because of the the huge number of of israeli civilian casualties, as many as 800, perhaps more israeli civilians were killed just at

the beginning, so there was enormous sympathy, but that that has not that that that has not lasted in view of the atrocities being committed in gaza, people say 800 civilians, 15,0 civilians, well they're all civilians, children are children, unless you have racist view, which is that some children are more valued than other children. some civilians are more valued than other civilians, well at colombia where you teach, didn't they outlaw uh students for justices and palestine and jewish voices for peace, they outlawed those groups right? yes, they banned them both, they they withdrew their their right to have events and the their university support, that's correct for the first semester, isn't this just to close, because they can't win, i'm talking about the zionis, they can't really win the argument, there's an argument that anti-semitism is the refuge of scounders and unfort. that is what's happening now, there is real viral anti-semitism in american society, most of it on the right, and there's some anti-semitism certainly in in in some of the fringes of

support for palestine, but palestinian rights, but in fact given that they actually can't win the argument, how do you justify 56 years of occupation, what can you say to justify 56 years of occupation, what can you say to justify no rights for palestinians in the occupied territories, what can you say? palestine will be free is genocidal, it's part of of the laws of the state of israel, it's the platform of the liquid party that from the sea to the jordan there will only be

israeli sovereignty, that was the platform party in 1977, so a bunch of students are hollering from the river to the sea, palestine will be free, and the israeli government actually is instantiating in law in its constitution that from the river to the sea there will only be jewish the only sovereignty. i mean on the one hand, on the other hand, and this lot are persecuted and prosecuted, not persecuted for their beliefs and on the other hand, you have an israeli state supported by people in the united states, which is which is made part of its of its constitutional laws a provision to that effect, so i mean we're operating obviously at colombia and other university campuses in a in a... favorable environment, but in a situation where there's enormous support for palestinian rights across american society, especially among young people in minorities, but many right thinking people who can see

through the hype and the kent and the hypocrisy and the lies of the mainstream media and the framing of the mainstream media and of our government, which is on ex, mean you listen to president biden and it it sounds like he's reading from an israeli teleprompter, line after line after line or lines that you hear from netanyahu or you hear from his ministers or you hear from israeli propaganda line after line after line in the things that the president says from the beginning of this war until today, crafted in in aviv, crafted in jerusalem is where the defense ministry is, and so we are operating an unfavorable environment, but i would argue that people who for example and do not want israel to continue its ethnic. of gaza and its massacre of a part of its population, um, support for that is overwhelming, according to poles, overwhelming majority of democrats and large

majorities of americans. oppose that israeli biden policy of war until whenever israelis have decided the war is over, hamas is destroyed in their view. i just want to say that when those students chant from the river to the sea, they're talking about equal rights for everyone when netanyahu uses that term, he's talking about jewish or israeli supremacy, right? that was rasheid, the edward said professor of modern arab studies at colombia. university and the author of the hundred years war on palestine, which is probably the best book for putting the current conflict in context. i want to thank the real news network and its production team, cameron grenadino, adam colie, david hebden and kayla rovera, you can find me at chrishedges.substack.com.

every time the yemeni navy succeeds in preventing the passage of ships headed towards the occupation sports and thorts attempts to break the blockade on the entity, it reassures the free people of the world. the closure of the red sea to ships colluting with the enemy turns into a heroic festival teaching the us and zionist israel harsh lessons and threatening them with more successive blows, capable of breaking their alliances and coersive global policies. despite the reluctance of global military powers, the balance has been shifting and the access of resistance is gaining strength as a regional force capable of defeating zinanist israel, the united states and their allies. yemen humiliates zionist israel this week on the beast stream.

israel is relentlessly pounding every corner the gaza strip at least 90 palestinians are killed in latest artillery and air raids on gaza city rafa and jubaliya. pg camp, hospitals and residential buildings are still the prime targets of the regime's attacks. palestinian resistance fighters fire a barrage of rockets deep into israel with reports pointing to sounds of explosions in tel aviv and surrounding areas. there's been no immediate report of casualties. the military wing of hamos resistance movement is also hit israely armor vehicles inside gaza.