saving this money putting it away in a. fund that could be used to get over hard times so i think you have to give them pretty good marks for managing the crisis and what about security threats like islamic radicalism but that's a serious matter of course and. the north caucasus problem generally has clearly become. more inflamed in the last several years it's no longer just church now but rather a whole region where governments used to variety of approaches and sometimes they're great people one another. there is a security response of course for some of which is absolutely necessary and i would support if i were russian there's an economic development program. but it seems to lack energy and coordination we've seen a real you know rather small between russia and the united states of america recently but one of the problems the two countries have and on delta well we've seen progress definitely and last year when we met of all die the new obama

administration had announced this reset policy but it was still very early stages and there had been really no successes at all but today we you know it looks quite different both sides of learned to i think look at the point of view of the other side and the policy is moderated we have an arms control agreement oh but so many things that i had i mean there's a question of whether the united states will even ratify the agreement because we're going to have a congressional election in november where the opposition may gain control over the congress so that and that's only the beginning i mean the agenda is very wide and very deep and there's been limited progress which is good but it's oh it's only the beginning we're talking here about it would take ten years to work through these things.

this history still keeps its secrets but now it's time to reveal the city of the soviet files house on the embankment and.

broadcasting live from our studios in central moscow where to six thirty in the morning this is our glad to have you with us let's take a look at our top headlines a key committee on capitol hill proves that the start treaty nuclear arms clearing the way for a full senate vote on ratification but despite being a top priority for the administration some republican senators say the treaty with plans for u.s. missile defense system. is if you want to rush on terror charges. arrived in poland despite a warning he could face arrest if he sets foot in the country russia wants him extradited but he's been sheltered by political asylum in britain where the courts have rejected his request. the u.n. is to decide on a russian canadian territorial dispute in the arctic with ownership of the areas or resources at stake moscow says it has scientific evidence.

coming up shortly crosstalk today peter lavelle and his guests discuss the resetting of international relations and just how will russia china and the u.s. in particular interact in a changing world. for the full story we've gone to. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers. hello welcome to cross talk about the politics of reset. in washington and the rise of a multilateral world.

to discuss the reset relations in many different countries and parts of the world i'm joined by thomas graham he's senior director at kissinger associates also we have john that he is the co-author of the bestselling book china megatrends eight pillars of a new society and we also have doris nesbitt she's the director of the nesbitt china institute i want to go to you first. we hear the term reset people obviously go to the united states and russia but i'd like to pose before we get to that reset if it's real or not the greatest reset in international relations in the last twenty years since the end of the cold war is the new engagement that russia and china have which is quite remarkable ok so i want to talk about this triad a little bit here but first you know let's let's look at the reset is real and then we'll put china into it is the reset real or is it just a media event just for both sides to say it can't go on like this we really do have

to talk to each other and we have to have some kind of moment and it was a change of administration it's a change of administration even if it only were a formula that allowed the two countries to talk together after a very difficult period in the relationship it would be important. that's what the reset has been about the countries are talking together now in a way they haven't in the past four or five years there's an intensity of engagement the senior levels that we haven't seen at least since the early years of the bush administration the question is what are these two countries going to do going forward the first year and a half i think it's been promising in changing the tone in the relationship there's been a start agreement that signed i believe will be ratified in both the united states and russia the question going forward is what have you these two countries do together in the future to straighten this relation whatever they do together joe and if i can go to you here i mean again the reset to do really focus on the united

states and russia i don't see a lot of evidence of reset and i think that they are still working they're still working on issues that they were before and just a different stress since the tone ok and we'll see what the results are but let's let's let's china into the cards here because that relationship here to reset. but if the change in relations between china and russia are is very important and signify. and for the world the gauge went of the united states and china and china has a lot of cards on the table now and people say it's the group of two now ok we'll throw russian who makes a little bit later the chinese don't like that very much but i do want to be one you know they don't they don't want to get involved in that game and they don't like the responsibility or the attention being one of two when they're really trying to join the world and be part of the world they really they don't they don't even like you know the eight and the twenty to begin with.

so i think there's got to be a huge reset on the part mostly of the united states to accommodate. in. its own behavior to accommodate the new course extraordinary presence of china in the great mix of countries and politics of the world. i mean in looking at china and the. there is the sense that the chinese do remember history they remember their own history very well. emerging it's reemerging if i get the chinese narrative correct ok and that also involves its neighborhood ok the relationship between let's say the nine china. and what was the soviet union of going back to the russian empire was not always very good with the chinese would see with certainly historically that the russians were

part of the carving up of china and its influence in the humiliation of china and i think that that reemergence is to a race that but you know russia feels very much the same you think when you look at russia and i'm not asking you to be a russia expert but you know emerging on the international stage do you see it similarities between russia and china you know matching on the internationalist. no i think that's totally totally different than if we use well the west as a reference point is a reference point because we have an international system that was designed and controlled in benefits the west now it's being very much challenging the biggest challenge of course is china yes but china has never. wanted to be part of the west russia has wanted to be part of the rest of the west you mention china's history china is very much aware of its own history people are very proud of their

history and if we look back to history in the in the twentieth century of course they have been very much linked to russia in their thinking russia was part of model of course russia pour out a lot of moxie and it was we were saying so yes ok yes the soviet union so and now the chinese have a little bit the problem too they drifted away from the communist thinking they still call it communism but it's a completely different way of communism so i think that you cannot really compare the two countries because their thinking is very different as we experience it regularly you. will what are they what is the chinese russian relationship trying to achieve here is it because together they have more clout in challenging western institutions maybe even western values as the world changes we've seen you know we

heard earlier this for their democratic problems with democracies in the west as well i mean it's everyone has their problems and some can say they have their achievements what's the relationship between russians and what do they want to get from each other and maybe pursue on the international stage particular from the russian standpoint this is a way of increasing one's weight in the world aligning with china. is that are important to challenge the way the west the united states has to try to control the international system to insert a new set of if ideas ways of doing things making a point that countries that are increasing economic weight should have a voice in the governance of the global economic system that's equivalent to their increasing weight so i think the russians saw a tactical advantage kind of out of this where this leads over the long run is a big question mark russia and trying to do come from two different perspectives on international affairs two different histories two different credit traditions

russia much more obviously a european country thinks of itself as a european country so why i think there's a certain tactical advantage at this point it's each country china and russia tries to assert itself on the international stage it's worth watching where this will take take both countries over the next ten years then go to you joe what does china want as it is sir asserts itself on the international space is we're getting kind of a division here you know they like the economic clout they want to be able to pursue their economic and agenda part of the communist party is the party of expectations ok you have to meet those expectations but does that match the same on the international stage of responsibility as being a global citizen is it that can they have the same thing because the west thinks very much in those terms it is always a package deal it's a package deal you know that. they want. you know it's like it's like the you

know say gee you got to devalue that because that will help our exports in. us well china is not a charity you know china you've got you can tell on china to do what is best for china and. in all these regards in china it is not it's so preoccupied with its own growth. it's not it's not spending very much time thinking about you know does it connects you with joining the world and also in connection with natural resources of africa and has been doing really when when policy there versus not it was ready when an african would say that well a lot versus what the rest is done with that they are now fair government to government although we know what's what's happening there but china doesn't also spend too much of its time worrying about russia. there is the you know we have the

new one because you don't have to worry about right no one doesn't have to worry about russia it doesn't worry that much about the u.s. china is preoccupied with two with developing china and they've got a long way to go and it's so interesting to us that the people who are articulate the problems of china most fervently are the chinese i mean they talk and the biggest problem in china by far is the growing and the leadership always says the growing gap between the between the income between the rural and the urban and fifty percent are still rural the energy that's going into that is far greater than the energy that is growing into international considerations all of a attend to that there is finally the we always tend to think you know when a country is rising you know with its economic might should we expect it to take on moral responsibilities on the international stage as well let's say there's

a humanitarian crisis let's say like like haiti should and should make a rich country and we can talk about what rich means ok quantitatively atlas and least should the chinese be also at the foot step there in helping out people here because it is a major player and it wants to be respected as a major player should they be equal you know with their economic weight well of course. and they are beginning to to to feel that responsibility and to react to that responsibility and of course they are in a position where they need to to increase to to make their reputation much better than it is because they are still they they both are so concerned with internal development well it's all going to all the other side i mean john said you know there there is really focusing on that ok i mean do they really care what the outside world. yes i don't think that he meant they don't care about the outside

world just invited out i nama and you will have. you know that there are certain points where the chinese have a strong sense ability about. they want the acknowledgement of the world and on one way they are very careful in stepping on the stage of the world because they don't want to be pushed back on the other hand of course they want to have a share a share in their responsibility and their share in the in the voice they want their voice to be heard as well and they're in this in this gap between internal needs for example when we said to chinese politician well why do you care if the dalai lama so big attention just don't say anything then of course they have to be the people who expect them to react in certain ways to certain things so as john said that's what what i want to underscore by that you have why when you look you

know you see a point after we take a short break when we come back we'll continue our discussion on resetting international relations stable started. in. discover it's. communicate with you want to. test yourself and become. nature can give you. every month we give you the future we help you understand how. to bring the best in

science and technology from across russia and around the world join your knowledge on our jeep. and. welcome back to cross talk i'm peter about three months you were talking about the resetting of relations on on the international arena including beijing washington in moscow ok before we went to the break you were one of the jump in go at it well it's not so much the chinese want to be thought well the chinese want to be humiliated you know they speak of the hundred years of humiliation the japanese invasion the opium wars you know from the outside world and they just are so sensitive about this this kind of humiliation that they want to move through and get on the other side of that's what drives them in here rather than want to be

well thought of which they do to or another level but deep down it's no more humiliation ok movement at least on the international stage and i can go into me. and if again you know we have seen democracy promotion expression during the the bush admin the bush administration is of bush. junior which was thought a very badly here and that's an understatement here i mean that the democracy card is always being played with doors were also pointed out you know the dalai lama that's what they would be people know the red buttons to press when it comes to the chinese but how much should we expect of that i mean we have an international system financially it's very much in crisis and a lot of people will say look in your country florida two thousand you know you had an election problem you know i mean why should you be telling everybody else what to do i mean how sensitive should the chinese be about that i mean to say it's

irrelevant it's not part of our tradition but there are elements within china itself that say that needs more democratization look i mean democracy is part of the international game at this point it's not only the united states that thinks in these terms we had a discussion at the forum today about democracy every country wants to think of itself as a democracy at its ability because it's an inherent good it's because it's seen as a way of lead you to my government at this point it is do you believe this is going to lead to anything with democracy no absolutely but but the fact that it's become part of an accurate everybody talks in the street in those terms means that it does have some some significance in international affairs in the way we talk about these issues. you know democracy will always be a part of american foreign policy the question is how you go about promoting that would you take a very aggressive approach the way the bush administration did take another

approach that is more in line with our tradition in line with our traditions depression i think the obama administration is taking which you make your own country six cents demonstration effect absolutely that other countries want to emulate as opposed to trying to impose your values on others but that always be part of the discussion and people writing about china people writing about russia at some point will raise the question of how democratic it is just part of the game . it's inevitable and it's i think it's fair to how democratic it is in whose terms the west the position of the united states thinks that democracy can only be one way and if you're not doing it our way you're not doing democracy means the reign of the people that's what the greeks said that's how it started the greeks who had slavery themselves the reign of the people and how you do that can be done in many different ways but the west and particularly the united states says it's system unless you doing it are where you're not really doing it and we you know in our book in our research we did we talk about the beginnings. of

a new kind of method station to have the markets the rate of the people as a vertical democracy dynamic in a place interplay bottom up and top top that's really starting to reshape china and they say in the democratic way in a way that resolves the rate of the people but no one's going to buy it in the west unless it's just like the west which is a conceit that really doesn't hold water when you look at the history and it's very interesting in this part of the world where in russia and in when you look at the post soviet space you know. two decades on a lot of people will say and i'd like to ask this of doris in reference to china is it people say what is it produced ok we look at ukraine ok for a period over years and tom this is very well. it's democracy didn't bring you anything except for chaos or if you could prove that you

could possibly pull off an election but that's all it did ok you got political deadlock you didn't get any progress in the economy tanked and the ukrainian economy tanked before the economic crisis so you can imagine how bad it is being is that way the chinese will look at it to say you know we will take this element because it's fish and it works for us ok at a certain level where decision making can we can change and i agree with john. well that's not democracy but it's as we baby a well in western discourse which is that how the chinese will look at it i mean it has to be there has to be participation but it can be done and enter in terms that fit their model of traditions for its well. yes as you said they want to know what works and what doesn't work and they have a very clear goal they want modest wealth for everybody in china and to reach that goal that is sort of the basic idea how do we create wealth for modest well for our people now they have the opinion that communism didn't work in

the way they picked it up so they got rid of it and now they are searching for their own model which they will base of course on their own history and on their own culture and that's the way they very pragmatically go for what they can be called a huge trial and error. you know it's such an enormous country so instead of putting one system above everything they create their special economic zones for example and now we're moving to a special political zones to try out different development different models and if it works in the region then they spread it across the country so they have a different model. used to get the results of course if you compare that to the western democracy which party could afford to say look we're going to declare.

california to be the model for this and that you know you would be stoned by the other party you could never have the time to really go through the years that are necessary to bring you the results so this is one of the advantages of. constancy of one party it's not called one party but the finitely. it is sort of a one party system that they can put up still teaching costs and then. let frame the forest sell to say i don't reach the goal and let the people do whatever is necessary to get nothing succeeds like success so if we would we've been talking about individual countries and democracy and i agree with you that it's become part of binocular but it's current it's value is so debased right now it's i don't even like using the term anymore but you know a lot of people in this part of the world in the middle and western world in russia we have a separate program on that about its identity and you're very well aware of that

but you know they will but there will be people in china and india brazil much of south america russia will say fine you talk you talk the talk of democracy but the international system isn't democratic at all ok there's a small number of people they can say no we're not going to do that one one or two countries can derail so many things initiatives in the world because that one country can say no but that's not democratic and it's a very huge double standard type i'm not going to take it aside on climate change but the united states really dragged its feet for a very won't happen according to we want to listen to continues to because one country has made that decision and then the chinese can say well since you know you're not getting involved why should we get involved with whatever side you fall on it it's rather tragic ok we have how we're both americans look and we're all three of the three or four of us or americans are better ok you know how do we how do we react to that you say you talk the talk and walk the walk of democracy but

the international system is far from that and no one claims that the international system is democrat how can you keep using it if we can use this binocular of democracy all the time because democracy we would argue applies to individual societies since the individual is relationship. with the rulers it's not a theory that you apply to international relations. in part should we in part because there are sufficient differences in values and way people think about the worst that you would have our democracy is universal. it made it plain the devil's that no i understand it may be universal in certain very broad terms but the way it is implemented in any society different dramatically based on the history and tradition of those societies democracy works in a in a country where there's already a political community we respect one another we know how what the framework is for

the dispute and we will conduct this dispute within that framework and we're willing as americans to let a majority determine who the present in the united states is going to be or how the congress is going to run and. we're not in a position where we feel we share enough in terms of fundamental values or traditions that we would allow a billion chinese outvote three hundred million americans that i think is a very crude way of life because the americans would live well obviously we would lose but the point is you can have democracy in china because there is a shared cultural context with it we can have democracy in russia there's a shared cultural context as well in the united states and work by country but when you move try to move across societies and move across value systems i think we're in a different ball game and that's what international affairs or what do you think john i mean. i appreciate everything it's said but i mean a lot of people in the world would say that you know is that the international system is stacked in favor of very well i mean there is no you know i'm not in so i

didn't think anything new it's certainly stack it's been reshuffled recently. but you know what's interesting about this talk about democracy and about china and whether or not it's become a democrat because we believe it is you know very different different way is that their western democracies are so dysfunctional. these days the western democracy the parliaments are paralyzed all over the place including the latest examples australia and almost all the represented democracies are including india and japan . so what what's happening to the traditional so-called universal western democracies at the same time that there are other countries struggling for maybe a new a new manifestation of how are you sure that in the end the people reign ok i saw we have time here for.