be transparent it was. ok so these the objectives of how do we get. there are not only objects of style and i think that love family is especially important when one is told do not know russian names of which was a letter that mr woods and i discussed what has been should be done by the government hearings this summer and one of the questions but he was he came to power ten years ago what has been achieved. hasn't been the chief and he was but a video from. it was interesting is that it was a one dollar payment if it was kim a question ten years ago mr putin what would you like this country to be infamous by and the reasonable demands of it should be kept and in fact according to their opinion polls the russians feel much happier than they used to and mr putin discussed the main the chairman's you see mention of national income is growing my personal income is growing pensions undergoing and so on and so forth and russia

past the stores like prices reasonable. do you get the feeling that i'm going to talk about. russia till twenty ten if you get the feeling this is a man beginning to campaign again. i think that he is very pragmatic he's not about campaigning here he is the bar sceptic to how he wants russia to be in the future now and in the future i think that who is running the country there was very question was what would either they mean here who is still in power and we can say that because you may remember he is really the sceptic to fright and to get richer you know i'm sure he'll tell us what is good day for money thank you very much indeed thanks again but you can. do business archie's full thank you very much so join us next. nicholas poole will be bringing us more out

days from the investment forum which is on the way in the russian city of sochi and meanwhile you can get more new small websites. every month we give you the future we help you understand how we'll get there and want to bring the best in science and technology from across russia and around the world join your knowledge update on r g.

live from moscow this is our to your headlines now a terror suspect wanted by russia has been detained by polish police in warsaw russia's top prosecutor has guaranteed that in the event of extradition rights will be observed in full under international law. russia u.s. or strategic arms reduction treaty gets the green light from american foreign policy paving the way for a crucial final vote from the full senate. believed to be one of the top russian mafia bosses who is shot in the center of moscow but manages to escape with his life investigators pointed out a blood feud in a turf war as possible motives behind the attack. a new plan is announced

to revive the troubled u.s. economy amid claims the country is recovering from the global crisis but despite new measures millions of unemployed americans are struggling to survive. see our debate show cross talk and today peter lavelle and his guests discuss the resetting of international relations and just how will russia china and the u.s. in particular interact in this changing world.

hello and welcome to cross talk about the politics of the reset. in washington and the rise of the multilateral world. to discuss the reset of relations in many different countries and parts of the world i'm joined by thomas graham he's senior director at kissinger associates also we have john nesbitt he is the co-author of the bestselling book china megatrends eight pillars of a new society and we also have doris nesbitt she's the director of the nesbitt china institute i want to go to you first. we hear the term reset people obviously go to the united states and russia but i'd like to pose before we get to that reset if it's real or not real the greatest reset in

international relations in the last twenty years since the end of the cold war is the new engagement that russia and china have which is quite remarkable ok so i want to talk about this triad a little bit here but first you know let's let's look at the reset is real and then we'll put china into it is the reset real or is it just a media event just for both sides to say it can't go on like this we really do have to talk to each other and we have to have some kind of. moment and it was a change of administration it's a change of administration and even if it only were a formula that allowed the two countries to talk together after a very difficult period in the relationship it would be important. that's what the reset has been about the countries are talking together now in a way they haven't in the past four or five years there's an intent. to be of engagement the senior levels that we haven't seen at least since the early years of the bush administration the question is what are these two countries going to do

going forward the first year and a half i think it's been promising in changing the tone in the relationship there's been a start agreement that signed i believe will be ratified in both the united states and russia the question going forward it would be these two countries do to get there in the future to straighten this relation what do they do together john if i can go to you here i mean again this this reset to do as they're really focused on the united states and russia i don't see a lot of evidence of reset and i think that they are still working they're still working on issues that they were before and just a different stress ok and we'll see what the results are but let's let's let's china into the cards here because that relationship here to reset. but if it be the change in relations between china and russia or is very important and significant for the world the engagement of the united states and china and china has a lot of cards on the table now people say it's the group of two now ok i will throw russian who makes

a little bit later the chinese don't like that very much but i do want to be one you know they don't they don't want to get involved in that game and they don't like the responsibility or the attention being one of two when they're really trying to join the world and be part of the world they really they don't they don't even like you know the eight and the twenty to begin where they were when a lot. down the road so but i think there's got to be a huge reset on the part mostly of the united states to accommodate. in. its own behavior to accommodate the new. extraordinary presence of china in the great mix of countries and politics of the world just. i mean in looking at the. there is the sense that the chinese do remember history they remember their own history very well. emerging it's

reemerging if i get the chinese narrative correct ok and that also involves its neighborhood ok the relationship between let's say pretty forty nine china in what was the soviet union of going back to the russian empire was not always very good the chinese would see certainly historically that the russians were part of the carving up of china of its influence in the humiliation of china and i think that that reemergence is to a race that in russia feels very much the same you think when you look at russia and i'm not asking you to be a russia expert but you know emerging on the international stage you see it's similarities between russia and china in emerging on the international stage no i think that's totally totally different if we use where the west as a reference point is a reference point because we have an international system that was designed and controlled in benefits the west now it's being very much challenging the biggest

challenge of course is china yes but china has never. wanted to be part of the west russia has wanted to be part of the rest of the west you mention china's history china is there a much aware of its own history people are very proud of their history and if we look back to history in the in the twentieth century of course they have been very much linked to russia in their thinking russia was part of their model of course russia pour out a lot of mosques and it was we were saying so yes ok yes the soviet union so. now the chinese have a little bit the problem they drifted away. from the communist thinking they still call it communism but it's a completely different way of communism so i think that you cannot really compare

the two countries because their thinking is very different as we experience i go to you. well what are they what is the chinese russian relationship trying to achieve here is it because together they have more clout in challenging western institutions they believe in western values as the world changes we've seen the you know we heard earlier this forum there are there democrat problems with democracies in the west as well i mean it's everyone has their problems and some can say they have their achievements what's the relationship between russia and what's what do they want to get from each other and maybe pursue on the international stage particular from the russian standpoint this is a way of increasing one's weight in the world aligning with china and issues that are important that challenge the way the west the united states has to try to control the international system to insert a new set of if ideas ways of doing things making

a point that countries that are increasing economic weight should have a voice in the governance of the global economic system that's equivalent to their increasing weight so i think the russians are tactical advantage out of that if where this leads over the long run is a big question mark russia and trying to do come from two different perspectives on international affairs two different histories two different credit traditions russia much more obviously a european country it thinks of itself as a european country so why i think there's a certain tactical advantage at this point as each country china and russia tries to assert itself on the international stage it's worth watching where this will take take both countries over the next ten years and then go to you joe what does china want as it is certainly asserts itself on the international space because we're getting kind of a division here you know they'd be like. economic clout they want to be able to pursue their economic and agenda part of the communist party is the party of expectations ok you have to meet those expectations but does that match the same on

the international stage of responsibility as being a global citizen is it the can they have the same thing because the west thinks very much in those terms it is always a package deal it's a package deal you know that. they want. you know it's like it's like the remember you know say gee you got to crease the value of that because that will help our exports in us well china is now the chair of you know china you've got you can count on china to do what is best for china and. in all these regards and china is not it's so preoccupied with its own growth. that it's not it's not spending very much time thinking about you know does it connects you with joining the world and also in connection with natural resources of africa and has been doing really when when policy there versus not it was ready

when an african would say that well a lot versus what the rest is done with if they are now fair government to government although we know what's what's happening there but china doesn't also spend too much of its time worrying about russia. there is the you know we have the new one because you just have to worry about roman doesn't have to worry about russia it doesn't worry that much about the u.s. china is preoccupied with too with developing china and they've got a long way to go and it's so interesting to us that the people who are articulate the problems of china most fervently are the chinese i mean they talk and the biggest problem in china by far is the growth. the leadership always says the growing gap between the between the income between the rural and the urban fifty percent is too rural the energy that's going into that is far greater than the

energy that is growing into international considerations all the way attend to that it was fairly early in the we always tend to think you want to countries as rising you know with his economic might should we expect it to take on moral responsibilities on the international stage as well let's say there's a humanitarian crisis. like like haiti should and should make a rich country we can talk about what rich means ok quantitatively atlas at least should the chinese be also there as a footstep there and helping our people here because it is a major player it wants to be respected as a major player should they be equal you know with their economic weight while of course and they are beginning to feel that responsibility and to react to that responsibility and of course they are in a position where they need to to increase it to make their reputation much

better than it is because they are still they well they're so concerned with internal development. to the on the other side i mean john said you know there there is really focusing on that ok i mean do they really care what the outside world thinks. yes i don't think that team and they don't care about the outside world just invited that i nama and you will have. you know that there are certain points where the chinese have a strong sense ability about they say they want the not achievement of the world and on one way they're very careful in stepping on the stage of the world because they don't want to be pushed back on the other hand of course they want to have a share a share in their response. and there share in the in the voice they want their voice to be heard as well and they're in this in this gap between internal

needs for example when we said to chinese politician well why do you care if the dalai lama so big attention don't say anything then of course they have to the people who expect them to react in certain ways to certain things so. that's what what i want to underscore by that you have to let your initial point after we take a short break when we come back we'll continue our discussion on resetting international relations stable door to. the. wealthy british style it's time to. market why not. find out what's really happening to the global

economy is a report on. every month we give you the future we help you understand how to get there and bring the best in science and technology from across russia and around the world. knowledge on r.g.p. . and. welcome back to crossfire to remind you we're talking about the resetting of relations on the international arena including beijing washington and moscow ok john before we went to the break you were one of the jump in go at it well it's not so much the chinese. i want to be thought well the chinese do not want to be humiliated you know they speak of the hundred years of humiliation the japanese

invasion the opium wars you know from the outside world and they just are so sensitive about this this kind of humiliation that they want to move through and get on the other side of it that's what drives them in here rather than want to be well thought of which they do two or another level but deep down it's no more humiliation ok movement simulation at least on the international stage and i can go into military school with and and if again you know we have seen democracy promotion expression during the bush admin between the bush administrations bush jr which was thought of very badly here and that's an understatement here i mean that the democracy card is always being played with doors were also pointed out you know the dalai lama that's what they would be people know the red buttons to press when it comes to the chinese but how much should we expect of that i mean we have an

international system financially it's very much in crisis and a lot of people will say look in your country florida two thousand you know you had an election problem you know i mean why should you be telling everybody else what to do i mean how sensitive should the chinese be about that i mean to say it's irrelevant it's not part of our tradition but there are elements within china itself that say that needs more democratization look i mean democracy is part of the international game at this point it's not only the united states that thinks in these terms we had a discussion at the forum today about democracy every country wants to think of itself as a democracy and it's only because it's an inherent good it's because it's seen as a way of legitimate government at this point it's a mystery to me to see them going to loot anything with them on this no absolutely but but the fact that it's become. part of an accurate that everybody talks in the street in those terms means that it does have some some significance in international affairs in the way we talk about these issues. democracy will always

be a part of american foreign policy the question is how you go about promoting that whether you take a very aggressive approach the way the bush administration did we take another approach that is more in line with our tradition in line with our traditions depression i think the mom and ministration is taking which you make your own country's success demonstration effect absolutely other countries want to emulate as opposed to trying to impose your values on others but that always be part of the discussion and people writing about china people writing about russia at some point will raise the question of how democratic it is just part of the game it's in it's inevitable and it's i think it's very good how democratic it is in whose terms the west its position of the united states thinks that democracy can only be one way and if you're not doing it our way you're not doing it democracy means the reign of the people that's so the greeks said that's how it started the greeks who had slavery themselves the reign of the people and how you do that can be done in many

different ways but the west and particularly the united states says it's system unless you're doing it are where you're not really doing it and we you know in our book in our research we did we talk about the beginnings. of a new kind of method station with of the markets the rate of the people as a vertical democracy a dynamic interplay interplay bottom up and top top that's really starting to reshape china and they say in the democratic way in a way that results in a raid of the people but no one's going to buy it in the west unless it's just like the west which is a conceit that really doesn't hold water when you look at the history and it's very interesting in this part of the world where in russia and in when we look at the post soviet space in. you know. two decades on a lot of people will say and i'd like to ask this of doris in reference to china is it people say what is it produced ok we look at ukraine ok for

a period over years. this is very well. it's democracy didn't bring you anything except for chaos or if you could prove that you could possibly pull off an election but that's all it did ok you got political deadlock you didn't get any progress in the economy tanked in the ukrainian economy take before the economic crisis you can imagine how bad it is the way the chinese will look at it to say you know we will take this element because it's fish and it works for us ok at a certain level we're decision making can we can change and i agree with jeremy table that's not democracy but it's as we maybe a western discourse or is that how the chinese will look at it i mean it has to be there has to be participation but it can be done and enter in terms that fit their model of traditions very well. yes as you said they want to know what works and what doesn't and they have a very clear goal they want modest wealth for everybody in

china and to reach that goal that is sort of the basic idea how do we create wealth for modest well people now they have the opinion that communism didn't work in the way they picked it up so they got rid of it and now they are searching for their own model which they will base of course on their own history and on their own culture and that's the way they very pragmatically go for what they can be called a trial and error. you know they would say it's such an enormous country so instead of putting one system above everything they create their special economic zones for example and. now we're moving to a special political songs to try out different development different models and if it works in a region then they spread it across the country so they have

a different model they use to get the results of course if you compare that to the western democracy which party could afford to say look we're going to declare. california to be the model for this and that you know you would be stoned by the other party you could never have the time to really go through the years that are necessary to bring you the results so this is one of the advantages of the constancy of one party it's not called one party but they often it is it is sort of a one party system that they can put up start teaching cause and then. let frame the forest sell to say to reach the goal and let the people do whatever is necessary to get nothing succeeds like success so if we win we've been talking about individual countries and democracy and i agree with you that i it's become

part of binocular but it's current it's value is so debased right now it's i don't even like using the term anymore but you know a lot of people in this part of the world in the mill in the western world in russia we have a separate program on that about its identity and you're very well aware of that but you know they will but there will be people in china and india brazil much of south america russia will say fine you talk you talk the talk of democracy but the international system isn't democratic at all ok there's a small number of people that can say no we're going to do that one or two countries can derail so many things initiatives in the world because that one country can say no but that's not democratic and it's a very huge double standard it i'm not going to take it aside on climate change but the united states really dragged. it's feet for a very long time and according to we who you want to listen to continues to because one country has made that decision and then the chinese can say well since you know

you're not getting involved why should we get involved let's watch whatever side you fall on it it's rather tragic ok we have how we're both americans look and we're all three of the three or four of us or americans i have met ok you know how do we how do we get to that challenge and you say you talk the talk and walk the walk of democracy but the international system is far from democratic and no one claims that the international system is democrat how can you keep us safe if we can use is the nakheel of democracy all the time because democracy we would argue applies to individual societies since the individual is relationship with with the rulers it's not a theory that you apply to international relations per se in part should we in part because there are sufficient differences in values and way people think about the words that you would have our democracy is universal. it made it plain the devil's that no i understand it may be universal in certain very broad terms but the way it

is implemented in any society different dramatically based on the history and tradition of those societies democracy works in a in a country where there's already a political community we respect one another we know how what the framework is for the dispute and we will conduct this dispute within that framework and we're willing as americans to let a majority determine who the president of the united states is going to be or how the congress is going to run and. we're not in a position where we feel we share enough in terms of fundamental values or traditions that we would allow a billion chinese outvote three hundred million americans that i think is a very crude way of life because the americans would lose well obviously we would lose but the point is you can have democracy in china because there is a shared cultural context where that we can have the mark. in russia there's a shared cultural cause as well in the united states and works by country and country but when you move try to move across societies and move across value

systems i think we're in a different ball game and that's what international affairs are when you think in china i mean. i appreciate everything it's said but maybe a lot of people in the world would say that you know is that the international system is stacked in favor of very well i mean it's i know you know i'm not in lifting anything new it's certainly the stack it's been reshuffled recently. but you know what's interesting about this talk about democracy and about china and whether or not it's becoming democratic as we believe it is you know a very different different way is that the western democracies are so dysfunctional these days the western democracy the parliaments are paralyzed all over the place including the latest examples australia. almost all the represent democracies are including india and japan. so what what's happening to the traditional so-called universal well.