where the united states is a huge country there's plenty of room on remote army bases to do your training also last time i checked afghanistan evil which is don't look like downtown miami just who are you training the kill anyways knock off the terror training but that's just my opinion. new year's celebrations on the move without the traditional t.v. festive food surprising meetings and new adventures stories of love and love lost our russians teach foreigners to celebrate them biggest holiday of the year. by train. them may be miracles.

hello and welcome to crossfire where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle five tiny pacific islands one big problem for japan china and the region what is fueling this dispute domestic nationalism geopolitics and natural resource grab all of the above then there's the question of what is called the pacific pivot is washington's pivot focused on challenging china's great power ambitions. to cross talk this heated island dispute i'm joined by she cocoa goto in washington she is a northeast asia associate at the wilson center in hong kong we have andrew bloom he is an international an independent china specialist and in philadelphia we crossed and then he is a writer and blogger for counterpunch all right folks cross talk rules and i think that means you can jump in anytime you want if i go to our guest in washington d.c. i mean if you were to create a hierarchy of what this dispute is all about what would it be containing china

resources the american pivot what's your number one. well the the they just be huge between the the japan and china really started with the grab for resources it has since then evolved into redefining national identity japan sees this as their own territory china has disputed that agreement and it is it is something that both sides simply cannot recall the filing against and we are finding ourselves in a deadlock over who owns what and it is it is a very terse situation that really cannot be rationalized that the stage ok andrew for i can go to you i mean you know i nationalism can be very irrational here but what direction is this going into we've seen it a little bit of the steam blowing off now of the last few days but it hasn't been resolved so what's the major issue for you well i think at the order of events is

that exactly like bart i think we should look at how the world order has warped don't forget that the territorial disputes between china and japan have been on the table for a long long time so why now and also if there's the this or core grab for resources you know it's only happened only recently where is the all of the spills as i was saying are have been on the cards i think what's happening is there was a major shift of events after the american pivot to asia and now the american pivot is not. just about china is because of the change in the world order america's capacity to lead has is the climbing is still leading but the capacity to lead is the climbing according to the national intelligence council report based in

washington you should be in in the at the national intelligence council is in washington d.c. . so. america has got to reconfigure is s.-s. around the world moving. a lot of the. that the resources from the middle east and concentrating to where it counts as asia but because of that because of america's building up military ties with china's neighbors that somehow have sold and another game and you're getting really you're getting way ahead of me know what it's all really like you're getting way ahead of me that's why i like you having on the program i'd like to go back to washington because our guest in washington was disagreeing. explain this has nothing to this has nothing to do with the united states the united states has made loud and clear that it really wants to take a neutral position regarding thank our clients the u.s. pivot the rebalancing towards the asia pacific is one issue so the same could die

you dispute as another what the united states has declared is that whilst they are a neutral party in these in these tense disputes if japan feels obliged to take some kind of military action or react in some way the u.s. japan alliance kicks in and then the united states which would. align itself with japan ok well let's let me go get a there to ok but the u.s. is involved in ok very much involved let's go to philadelphia what do you think here we got to the pivot real early in this program i'm glad go ahead lynn go ahead well i would respectfully disagree with that assessment because i think u.s. is really behind this dispute the u.s. is playing off japan's fear of falling behind china or losing is primacy in asia and is also playing off the fear of all in the asian nations towards a resurgent china so just vietnam the philippines and another countries so the u.s. is using this. as a catalyst as

a mechanism to stay relevant in the western pacific so as long as these asian countries fear chinese of bullying them but u.s. has a role to play and they can sell weapons. you know and it can stay profitable otherwise it has no role in it was in the pacific so u.s. is really behind this is going to japan towards this confrontation station which i know because the issue was dormant for decades there was no you know law over. conflict until recently japan initiated this so this rather suicide tactic is really instigated by washington d.c. i believe it let's go back to washington d.c. then. yes it is that it has been a tension calls the subject over many centuries but it's only really bubbled up over the last couple of years but really i believe that the genesis of this is not the united states but rather the governor of tokyo who decided that hey we're going

to spend money the government of tokyo to buy these privately owned lands and then the japanese government intervened and said ok well we can't get the tokyo government to buy it so we've the national government is going to actually buy these islands washington again is wants to play a neutral party in this but let me play the devil's advocate. say the united japan feels more strongly strongly about going in. to take military action to take to take over these islands because it has the united states backing what would happen then then china has an excuse to take military action against japan then the united states and japan can declare war on china and and then china will possibly have backing from north korea and we see this big big fall out and we are seeing and we would see a repeat of one nine hundred fourteen world war one when the assassination of

a crown prince by some serbian nationalist sparks off a whole global war i don't think anyone really wants this and if anyone with any russian now can think through it is it is a dangerous game so i can understand that yes it gets headlines to talk about oh yes it will sell american arms but that is not what's happening here ok andrew i mean is it really it seems like containment of china to me at least well at least through the charter. to be a strategy of calm payment by i mean. or bottoming. because a lot of america's treaty difference treaty with japan but it's also. americas are forming much closer military ties with all china's neighbors including of course but australia but also as far as india you can see that there is a. circle moment of china and that's only

happened only really during the last couple of years and then of course the south china sea is a very very important conduit for the importation of oil resources which are china's the lifeblood so china naturally feels threatened now as far as to japan is concerned the recent wide japanise resorting to what appeared to be more assertive action it's not us out of the blue it's because of the rise of japanese nationalism and of course a right wing politics in japan so the politicians are trying to cater into this kind of. national psyche which says that the world is many many years of the second world war and in fact a lot of the japanese people were born after the second world war including prime minister. so they don't see why japan should continue to you know sort of move

around the world would tail behind its back as it were after all japan as was the world's second largest economy until it was overtaken by china so all this plays into a more assertive national policy and because of that and because of the american pivot forming military allies with china's neighbors and so a number of china's neighbors with poland tauriel rival claims are all becoming more assertive and that feeds into china's ok here let me go to len let me go to lynn in philadelphia the other thing that i would argue here is this nasty nationalism versus nasty nationalism it sounds quite dangerous. well the nationalist angle is used to play up support the mastic lee japan is using this dispute to rebuild its military so already is gaining something from it and abyei was reelected because of his nationalist right wing stance and his rather

belligerent stance so nationalism is used including us to gain support for whatever each country is doing but it comes down to resources and geo political reasons you know but. some money is at the heart of this but nationalism emotion is used to gain support. but i want to return to the us japan. coordinated effort to. create a front against china the u.s. is not just getting closer to you know. allies it's us australia and india as already mentioned but also vietnam in cambodia is former enemies and the japan too is giving navy ships to the philippines and selling submarines to vietnam so this is a very coordinated effort to create a new front against china to contain china because inevitably there's going to be more of a of

a fight over resources because all these all these industries all these countries need oil natural gas to pursued this more inclusive growth that is slipping away from all of them all right hang on we're going to go to a short break here and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the pacific islands dispute stay with our team.

juggling job. to hack work and get caught when lobbyists money and lawmakers are combined together that's where the problem of corruption comes from. i don't know the document's. keep up a smart look. there is also. another well behind that which is how to influence the institutions to steer clear of provocations don't answer any question. came into the office and found banners honey around the office and lots of strange faces around

so i said what's what's happening will somebody please tell me what's going on and they said oh we've come to occupy your building. possibly they want to do a confrontation possibly they wanted me to ring up the police to have the police come in through the mail but it didn't seem to be a good idea to learn the european way with brussels business. in the uk kristie it's one person one fault but in brussels business it's one euro one fault.

theme. welcome back to cross talk for all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind

you we're talking about the japan and china island just you. ok i'd like to go back to washington our guest there was very angry that you couldn't jump in before the break and now is your opportunity i'd like to see you know preface it is that it's what we heard at the very end of the program of the first part is that the militarization of the region and this sounds very very dangerous going back to your nine hundred fourteen comment go ahead. i want to repeat again that the east china sea territorial disputes and the u.s. pivot towards the asia pacific region are two different and two suffrage strategy would have all the time either trying is very interesting you have to admit got. don't you think the timing is yes it is it but i do believe it is a coincidence the really really balancing of u.s.

military forces is not something that you can just do overnight it takes years upon years of decision making and strategic planning it is the reach shifting of military forces from afghanistan and iraq into new interests and that kind of situation has been in play for the past decade. and i also want to add to that i'm i'm getting a lot of. concern about this idea of china being attacked china against the world and that the united states was leading this global attack against china if we do look at the numbers though u.s. china relations have never been as as close as they are now in terms of capital flow from one side to the other in terms of people to people networking and ideas exchange this is not the cold war it is not the united states against china so i

think that really needs to be highlighted and never has the white house declare that china is the enemy but at the same time of the washington is very concerned about is the military modernization of china and the the building up of arms by china that that is certainly something that is being considered seriously by washington and that is at the heart of the rebalancing towards towards the asia pacific region but again there is the threat of north korea there are other concerns it is a rear and it's also wants to the united states also wants to burden share its oversight of safety in the asia pacific region and it really wants to reconsider and re re define its alliances with its existing partners ok andrew but i mean in beijing we don't see it that way b. c. that there being a target of a possible aggression from the outside marking the bridging sees the situation

pretty clearly not only in perms of the asia pacific but you perms of the world order as i was saying before because because if you look at the the the these so-called pivot is really part of a real balancing of a response to a change in the global order according to brzezinski who is the course is the boy in american foreign policy his latest book called strategic rich. can actually see how americas could maintain its leadership in a changed world dividing the world into the west and the east the west of course includes russia and turkey so it's balancing that with the west means trying to bring russia in for example in the with the b.t.o. and try to bring turkey in into the of the fold as it were in a kind of balancing row in the west but as far as the ease is concerned brzezinski

calls this a complex beast now how to culture balance a complex is where most of china's neighbors are china's largest trading partners and they do not want to sour the relationship with china but of course most of those neighbors also fear that china's getting to break in is as like a one thousand pound panda and even though it is of good intentions and and a lot of the countries fear the child is getting too big so america comes in and provides a kind of military umbrella and and try to rebalance the kind of geopolitics there but if you if you wind china your cost be very very. worry because as i was saying the pacific and the south china sea in particular is china's that is the conduit of a lot of resources and and and and in fact china's trade on which china depends for its survival so i think that china is extremely worried

and that adds into and that also if you add into the kind of total tauriel integrity which is of course as a baby a sour point in terms of china's national psyche don't forget the china saw its sovereignty infringe for for almost a century because foreign aggression and that's why there was a rise of nationalism as well in china so all these forces coming by play ok watched. then jump in this is crosstalk go ahead yeah i i just i just want to disagree with most of that basic premise about a new global order but i did actually want to point out the role that russia can can play in all of this what's very interesting is that there are territorial disputes not just in these china there is quite a few of them. and then there are quite a few and the one in northern territories the curl islands is something that has been a huge problem since the end of the war exploded today but at the same time but it's

actually i'm at a table with the would say who's acting reckless right here ok japan and russia agree to disagree ok they don't have their fleets going after each other ok it's a big difference so when let me go to you i don't know that i could actually hear you know who's being reckless in this situation both sides all sides. i just i just want to get back to the resource issue as far as you are subverting china and challenging china's access to resources just look at africa u.s. is actively working against chinese efforts to secure resources from africa when it knocked out qaddafi for example is shredded chinese oil contracts in that country so china is very vulnerable because it needs oil from far places that the u.s. can block off through the sea so that's why is focusing is nearer to home towards the south china sea and the east asia see what has to remember also the symbolism of the. dispute in the china laws these islands in

hundred ninety five when everyone thought that it has a larger and stronger navy and japan to everyone's surprise. defeat in china back then and took these islands so you know the woman has forgotten about this but china hasn't so it is very specific and peculiar that japan is raising the issue this issue now because this issue was dormant for decades they say that is natural gas and oil in the sea there but the. hasn't been developed in fact japan hasn't done anything with these islands or for decades so to raise the issue now is is very interesting to say the least andrew what's a solution what's a win win for both sides our sides if that's possible well i think that as i was saying this problem had been on the table for many many years it's only until the folk past couple of years that everything seemed to have flare up so tired doesn't want to war because china's the you have huge problems the contend with more

america want to warn or for that matter to protect japan but because of what all these forces coming into play we have a situation where things can get out of hand very quickly so i think that the both sides are really set aside that agree to disagree as it were the differences and then explore areas where they can cooperate for example i mean there are lots of. resources in that area and then there could be areas for joint exploration for example and of course the the kind of the reason live some of them deserves maybe a bit of conservation efforts and of course the finding the code of conduct you know was certain lines should not be cross because once they're cross then the danger for the intended consequences would be very severe with lights sending military aircraft you know cloak flying close to one another or you've been sending

fresh you know sort of warning. shells or that could really leap into a kind of military confrontation because that they knew is that once that was a war once that there was some military crash between china japan america has got to be involved on the side of japan because of the of the treaty of the defense treaty and once americans got involved everything ask elites so this is the very dangerous situation if we go back to washington i think there's another historical thing we should remember during the cold war the soviet union and united states had certain standards to communicate with each other in a crisis does china and japan need that now. or developing personal relations is critical in defusing the current situation i think hit the nail on the head the two sides do need to come. together to agree to disagree and we are very very far away from that situation at that moment and so the personal connection the trust

the communication pipeline needs to be a stop listen and used very very frequently at this stage one of the biggest worries that i have at the moment on a practical side is the two weeks ago there was a ridge or that was shot out to japanese. defense. ships and shooting a missile is a two step process you fire a radar right and then the missile follows that radar trajectory for china to have done that is very alarming it is an act of aggression but the fact that china the chinese government is denying it it's all very interesting either china. the chinese leadership did not know that that happened and that it was just on a grassroots level at the ship commanders level that is worrying if that is the

case because that means the ship commanders have. considerable power to set flame on a very incendiary situation or it could also mean that the chinese leadership has complete knowledge and understanding of the situation and ordered it and that opens another kettle of you know what i'm going to. focus france on eating discussion we can resolve the dispute we'll be talking about in the future many thanks my guest today in washington to help us and in hong kong and thanks to our viewers for watching us here i see you next time and remember crosstalk.

you know how sometimes you see a story and it seems so for lengthly you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you knew you don't know i'm sorry welcome to the big picture . basis based on. you know i care read could. play. music. concert the show today how to sing we just had a studio lot of great like

a month to go to the to debate which is basically divided you know they. would pick mass shootings from the receipts and just say me looks like someone coming to stop the bloodshed on this one comes to prevent coming coming because there were concepts of the team past.