well welcome to worlds apart according to karl marx history repeats itself 1st this tragedy 2nd as far as but in the case of american politics it's fast turning into a sit com and we not only the characters but even the situations remain invariably lock up another gave this time ukraine gave taking over washington there's still a chance of ever moving you had on the world's. problems well to discuss that i'm now joined by the meat that is so slow of deputy director of the center for comprehensive european and international studies at the higher school of economics in moscow miter it's good to talk to you thank you very much for your time hello nice to meet you now we're recording this conversation on the sidelines of the valdai discussion forum which was set up as a serious academic platform to deal with the issues of global importance in the uk year after year those issues take a back seat to the twists and turns of the american politics and i'm pretty sure

it's going to be the case this year too as much as we all like to talk about the changing world order the americans are still commanding everybody's attention and our enemy well absolutely that the us for the us domestic politics the. stalemate that exists there is i think one of the most important problems of international relations because it paralyzes us for informal so big a signal it becomes the result of the domestic fight. you know these jewel provides this other global problems because the u.s. is still the most powerful country in the world but instead of fixing other problems. its approach towards this problems becomes the result of the domestic interplay which of course does nords contributes to the stability will govern the bill. see in the world speaking about this interview and others you

believe that not much will come on from this impeachment proceedings in terms of the intended goal then and likely to take down but do you think they may actually work the other way around and solidify his re-election chances well i think there is some chance for a doctor over abusing his prospects for reelection although more very high chances for that you're absolutely right you know. even when the crime. is obvious the experience of previous impeachments in the united states which were to actually shows that even in these situations it is unlikely to be resulted into the real impeachment because the senate nor the calls are representatives of the sides and there is the republican majority in the sound of and what is most important donald trump is supported by a bald 90 percent of the republican electorate so i think no one from serious

republican politicians would dare in these circumstances to vote against the president however of course the by the way thing the launch of the impeachment procedure is already the recognition of high chances for donald trump to be reelected democrats understand that it is very difficult for them to be trump you wrote recently had that the allegations against trump a much weaker than even those put forth against bill clinton back in 9098 why do you think the democrats are taking their risk because it involves one of their own every time dimension impeachment they imply joseph by then in their rather you know i'm flattering situation well for 2 reasons i think reason number one that the sign of despair because indeed it is difficult for the democrats to beat trump in the.

the conditions they are looking for basically every plainsman to of the miller investigation miller of this to gauge and failed to prove them and they now looking for the other ways to still accused trump of some crimes not just delusion with ukraine and the forceful. intervention of ukraine into american domestic elections but also something something else they need these sorts of investigations you know to pressure trump secondly this is an attempt by the democrats to charm the discourse a bold by them sort of all in. domestic politics and biden's corruption this iteration is very risky for the democrats i mean this. investigation of biden sort all warped world the russian mel's forewards world the reasons for biden's demands to get out of the former ukrainian general

prosecutor so they want to change you know their retreat from the investigation of why don't you didn't this the geisha of the op i also heard one russian expert boyce a very counter intuitive hypothesis that i want to run by you he suggested that by launching the impeachment proceedings the democrats and the congress are trying to undermine not so much trying but those of by himself and the establishment wing of the democratic party which as we all remember plates now were dirty against the socialist the wing party in the run up to the 2016 presidential elections by openly disfavoring bernie sanders defined of claws of bull well i think so there is no unanimity within the democratic camp by the way this overall investigation and the scandal related to the u.s. role in the ukrainian domestic politics might serve a little salt into. biden's defeat in the primaries. them

one of the most possible winners of the democratic campaign will be bertha saunders or perhaps it is a bit more and more absolute a bit elizabeth warren which will be greater health of development i would say for the democratic party because indeed the the traditional democratic establishment ease the problem of the democratic party these still allows donald trump time and again to claim that the additional elite. it represented by he will recall in the jaws of by them they want to reveal they wants to people's. votes and basically live the good more people's discomfort them and tired of the new liberal. so i think it will be healthy to live for the democratic party if someone else wants the. primaries and that will be there in the very interesting final election in november of next year you also suggested that 2020 elections may

be the dirtiest and the fiercest elections in american recent history it's love like their polling is how flayed fairly and till now i mean we have seen a number of methods being used against donald trump. sabotage open ended investigation now the impeachment proceedings any other tricks that his opponents have been to use so far apart from physical harm and plain assassination impeachment is already i would say the use of weapons of mass destruction in american domestic politics because that's the final instrument that you can use against the acting president and i think that indeed the elections will be most. in the recent american history because the stakes are incredibly high for both sides for donald trump this stake is not just implementation of his domestic politics but actually avoiding prison and the. voiding the direct groom in the

trial because most probably the democrats would want to put him to trial if he's more longer the president of the united also what charges all the charges or for instance preventing you know justice during the meal or in this the geisha remember robert moore when he gave his the results of his investigation he said the only reason why the charge of all of. the investigation was not put again storm of trump is because he was the acting president of the overseas airport doesn't contain amy so have the advocates of trying to track them in whatever they can come out of that would be if they can do that here is you know the democrats want revenge the democrats wants to depict trump as a temporary aberration they want you know to come in just. above him and it is easier to do it away a private citizen than the president of the united states so fort drum the stake is

his personal freedom after all now democrats for the democrats the stake is voiding even deeper a crisis of the party in basic aliya the survival of the traditional elite it's the problem of survival for both sides because if prompt once for the 2nd time it will be no longer possible for the traditional leads to claim that prompt is that the emperor of the ration who became president as a result of the intervention of an alien foreign. foreign country they will have to accept the nature all sense of discontent in the american society and all the problems that have been ignored for many years and actually which brought donald trump into the white house now you mentioned there were the words survival several times and historically there have been more than 30 attempts to kill and convent of former president 4 of them result that in the killing of the acting head of state all of them are probably. a that without then sharing too much into the reality of

conspiracy theories do you think that method of doing politics is fully relegated to history or let's say foreign policy because i mean it we know that american intelligence agencies have conducted a couple of assess a nation at times including in a relatively recent history but not the mastic lee i c m well my assumption is that this scenario is quite plausible. i can't i don't claim that there is a very big risk of donald trump to be in the eat it but we shouldn't exclude. american security services american counterintelligence and intelligence also waging war against donald trump right then this whistle blower who made this pleat against the acting president you know the. the resistance of the deep state within the trump of ministration that it's all proofs the drums campaign this struggle is

not just between trump and democrats it's also between trump and the traditional establishment which is represented also and primarily by the security services by the bureaucrats they are using different methods to undermine the president from the outright sabotage to these please investigate show me which basically numerous media leaks there is apparently a positive vibe about every n.f.l. coming out of religious sorts of media leaks eve all these methods become in effect of even the eve it comes out that all these scandals the minds of jewels of by them or the normal trump which you think will be the case i won't excludes that the ventura leaves some more extreme versions of political struggle instruments of political struggle will be utilized mentor before we are accused of being conspiracy theorists let's take a very short break we'll be back in just a few my. statement.

rather than proof a lot i know comes out of. this sort of one among what i would are them. a fondness for matey way too high is not the high i might be heard. of this month when the sun shone. full of so close to the north near me a lot of the. theater

some when we did the board. on the surface this is not reported because it's too hard fine to speak of that the fact that a credit markets reach such a state of just disrepair that it's. causing a run on the dollar. welcome back to worlds apart with live deputy director of the center for comprehensive european and international studies at the higher school of economics in moscow before the break we started talking about impeachment which proceedings which. already prompted the 1st high profile resignation i'm talking about with

volcker you're used to direct them american policy in ukraine there are some signs that he was also directing the ukrainian politics in america how big of a deal is that well 1st it identifies manifest the depth of the scandal he's already accused of putting pressure against the ukrainian authorities and also he wants to emphasize the he has nothing to do with this pressure actually he personally and politically believed in the necessity of supporting ukraine against russia or. does he does not want to be associated with prompts a retiree. or force putting pressure on ukraine secondly apparently claiming that russia is more important than ukraine and there's in the sort of egypt interest of the united states to get along with russia whereas you green is

an obstacle so this goes against the political views of walker m.p. resigned but i wonder if it's just the matter of him disagreeing with the president because the same unidentified whistleblower complained about your interactions with the ukrainian president has suggested that mr walker was often acting not on the instructions of donald trump or secretary of state mike compare his direct boss but at the request of the ukrainians for example the close aide to president selenski and that he you know mock given how easily accusations of treason fly in washington does he have her reason to be concerned about the ethics of his own behavior rather than his association with donald trump through legal view point of course yes and what you just described is again proves my thesis that there is a very strong resistance among american bureaucracy against the. the sins of the

president and they apparently sabotage and could have walker was largely involved in this by pursuing. donald trump's presidency visit the ukraine. which volcker can see the right and which reflected the interests of certain ukrainian politicians you know ukraine and that's got on stage from the political perspective for you think volcker will be protected by the by the democrats by their establishment and by and by trump republicans which still exist because for them ukraine is the friend everyone who supports ukraine is also a friend. of the right will say. i think volcker will be a q. sed right walker will be used as an instrument against donald trump it's interesting you say that because i mean they think compare this situation to something that happened to for example general flynn who was a man who was decimated politically for simply appearing at artie's dinner and

sitting at one table with live near put of the doubt even exchanging any any war it's imagine him being involved in trying to arrange meetings with u.s. presidents associates all be have president bush and i mean he would have been in prison. the end of his days well of the whole russia gate was artificial from the very beginning. that was a huge hypocrisy from the very beginning because law there is lots of foreign intervention into american domestic politics you know take easily and it's legalized i mean it is and it's legalized last and that it will 'd be absolutely again they could easily look at these rail loophole in the american domestic and foreign policy it right know well 1st russia is considered as adversarial paulo secondly the fight is not even 1st the 1st and foremost about russia it's against donald. because the presidency of donald trump undermines the supremest to

the rule of the additional establishment elite in american politics now while walker is departure at least the trumpet ministration pretty much without any senior official with the expertise in these part of the world i mean fiona hale codes. john bolton they are all god the united states still has no on baster in ukraine and the american ambassador to russia is said to resign within the next couple of days and october 3rd how do you take it does russia have reason to be concerned about these brain drain when it comes to u.s. policy in ukraine. on the one hand the departure of volcker could have played a positive role because indeed from the russian perspective the role of all code was apparently negative right walker prevent the implementation of the means and

persuaded ukraine to continue to subsidize the implementation on the other camp in the current situation of scandal i truly don't believe that the departure of walker will matter for the american pull we see towards ukraine because there is no policy in conditions of the current scandal impeachment investigation the american policy towards ukraine will be paralyzed it will be ultimately dependent on the believe the goal domestic political interplay all the hue towards the impeachment in these conditions there is nothing that washington can or would want to do viz of ukraine i think the white house will try its best you know to distant itself from the ukrainian go in general does he know the the absence of the interlocutor will change the situation to read the rest because. no

balls that you know for this into the locker to be implemented but as it comes to russia well you're absolutely right the well 1st the role of domestic politics in american foreign policy is a problem for us russian relations and for international security absence of experts. negotiators experience negotiators on control on some of the issues is a problem of course for for us russian relations in this situation we well we have to strengthen the mechanisms of communication where still experts exist so what they are what i'm talking about we need to strengthen mil to mil negotiations do you think there has you know an actual very disease left they absolutely in the pentagon yes i mean we haven't seen multiple departures from the pentagon general gerar some of and general dunford they need on a regular basis primarily discussing syria we need to multiply and broaden the

spectrum of the discussion from just syria to our the flanks of us of us russian revolution speaking off which over the last couple of months has made several russia friendly statements he offered to bring moscow back into the 7 that and during his meeting with the landscape he suggested that the russian ukraine with quote solve that problem together reach i thing. that meaning ukraine. all of us who seems a little bit less constrained on our on the russia track how far could it go well unfortunately the spog of ukraine gate limits and the potential for trump's positive steps. toward small scale you know from the very beginning donald trump did not consider russia as a natural enemy of the united states he has a strategy. equation which is that china is the arrival in the major

competitor and for basically of the united states not russia donald trump understands that it is quite difficult for the united states to successfully conduct this policy of dual containment of these 2 great powers so he would want basically to improve relations with russia as the secondary great power in comparison to china in his opinion in order to a little bit diminish and reduce the intensity of russian cheney's relations and thus simplify the primer objective for the u.s. strategy campaign meant off of china and of course he regards the ukraine call flicked as an obstacle. trump was absolutely sincere when he said that russia and ukraine should resolve that issue and ukraine should take more initiative in

resulting in resolving that issue because that will allow some reparation while with. the us why did the almost from do with them because of the end of the ruler investigation right hughes ties were completely he's cancer completely died when the moon list again was going on so he can see the end of that investigation allows some greater freedom of maneuver for finally to implement the policies that he wanted to implement from the very beginning however we have the new scandal right we have the impeachment investigation income in the impeachment investigation again shows russia as the enemy earlier this year you gave a interesting talk at the center for strategic and international studies in washington in which he talked about russia u.s. tensions as a new cold war which has existential significance for both sides and which cannot be resolved through a compromise he suggested that it would only add to with one of the sides reconsidering its role in the world. i think it's going to be. well i

hope that it will be the u.s. transformation the transformation of the u.s. foreign policy which in my understanding is already on the fold it started with the obama administration donald trump continues that with the other means but there's also the reconsideration of the u.s. role in the world i would refer you to the leader's speech that donald trump gave in the u.n. general assembly the manifest of this new approach well i think that the major challenge that do night is states faces is that the u.s. legs historical experience of equal coexistence with other great powers in the multipolar world while staying while staying integrated into the international order the american experience is either isolationism or global leadership now none of these options are acceptable in the united states should learn for the 1st time in the hugh story khalid to call manage international orders with other great

powers ease impossible to role models that deliver at the back so the us must and it does the way that trying in a very painful and contradictory way but the u.s. is a liberated you know lauralee despite its will but learning this practice of coal management of the world with in conditions of polarity and very quickly if i may you also suggested in that speech that russia's 2024 problem which is the problem of the issue of power transition from to his successor also very much depends on their cuteness of tensions with the united states how com how is it possible i mean moscow is so proud of its sovereignty and yet you're suggesting that the most consequential decision of a generation of will ultimately depend on its relationship with washington well i think the international context and the u.s. russia the relations is one of the most import. elements of this international

context made a huge impact on the russian domestic evolution the historical mission i think of lot of the middle portion is not just to make russia a great power again but also to make it illegitimate a great power right to compel the other powers to recognize and accept russia as a legitimate independent great power of global significance we are logged there we are in conditions of precisely the new cold war do knighted states still try to everett russia back into its throat defeat into mind in mind this m d wants to transform russia both in terms of its foreign policy in the terms of its domestic politics these pressure off the us russian confronting. i think is impacting the russian domestic development in the very strong way in the that it will be a more difficult you know for for russia to manage its transition in conditions of

the new cold war with the united states if we have the acknowledgement by the united states by the west in general in the role as the legitimate great power war i think the 22 into 4 transition would be much more smooth and easy and mornings while we have to live it there thank you very much for being with us today my pleasure i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going our social media pages and hope to syria same place same time here on all the part.

gandhian by north sami people because they copied him you saw a bird that even such a bad puppy is sending. i'm not guilty of dog people being. killed or find the next guy. done the infidel to feed the dog she went on plenty of. the flick some for the c.e.o. thing is a deflection what is hard for you to say. that is a god given that i got up from many observers.

that he and others are going to going to see a lot about that. that you can bank on that nothing like a. long long while the name. on the bottom there's a bonus which alone can speak a lot all. under one new person and later today 100 gandhi the new normal gandhi. on the seas has been to keep you know you can go to mark you name and join you. he may. be. possible i.

yes. and the u.k. christian doctor fails to get his sacking overturned as an employment tribunal left after he was fired for refusing to use different pronouns for transgender people we spoke to the doctor in question. christian believes christianity is not. a. knife and kills 4 people at a police headquarters in paris a number of others were left before the attack and was shocked at. the u.s. democrats rallied to protect the whistleblower whose claims have triggered an impeachment inquiry we look at how they previously prosecute those who feel uncomfortable truths.