no one has ever faced trial in bars. johnson's really good government has been considering legally immunizing all soldiers involved in atrocities. joining me not from cook's down, northern ireland is shown faint and p for middle sta. francie malloy? thanks so much for coming back on. i mean, people were waiting this week for sue gray in an inquiry. of course, when it comes to bloody sunday, there was a witchery inquiry that people may have forgotten about. tell me and remind us about what bloody bloody sunday was. and the whitewash committed by british civil servants and officials after the atrocity was thank you very much for the invitation to come on. a really sunday was changing our parish political same. a was a massive change, of course. for the 1st time and this horatio champion british soldiers had, i went in and opened fire a with lay branch on on, on arm said they didn't marching. they and they at they targets were very much in

that. i don't even walk in honda on as the song said that after time on the steps of martin luther king iraqi had done the sam america or civil rights. and so it was a massive change and surprised to people his id were on armed anom survey, hymns, women and children families out a demand in civil rights under compressor h. i for this attack to happen. i guess it was of course irons, 2nd bloody sunday because in the 1920 is a buddy sunday. well, i'm british to talking in co park as to where to remind her of those days. and that the, the war was still continuing a, by the british government, the british army in and during. yeah, the 1st one when churches are black and tans fide into into a gigantic football stadium. but i mean, i get to the parachute regiment, the 2nd burst johnson, the prime minister has said previous me that as regards who should take responsibility for it, there would be quotes, there would be

a storm of utter fury. if 4 men would charge for killings while the i r a gets away with it. when of course the letter i read nan and linen shirt long periods of time in jail. thousands of them and long cation english present, and irish prints on a cross word, a republican directly convicted in jails, some of men on by it skeptical grounds, a on force compassionate and torture on all the rest of that goes the legacy. off of the british control and iran is so the, the fact that nobody has been held responsible for 30 sunday, whenever 14 people died running sunday, the 13 on the day and one followed after. and nobody has been found guilty of that is by clear from the way jury tribunal. first of all, it was a told her, ours, a on and things could have been sorted. i that what i was, the problem is that the british government find it difficult to convex george's for

doing what they were sent out to do by that are to be at that time. and it's quite clear that and ration of the iraqi foundation shake. well, of course, following what is often you're in, but no, no excuse for any kind of atrocity. and you're going to have to tell me which prime ministers and tell me about the commander on the day frank kits. and he had been in cyprus in bahrain, in a number of places in kenya. famously for trying to destroy the independence movement that he's alive, we invite him on, on the show. he was commodity one para also involved in valley murphy, 9071. when, of course, frank kitchen was the architect of all of us. not only of the shoot to kill policy which retired on sunday, and by the marquee, and other parts of the north, but brain, which in the end of the collision, it were, he used to the loyalist forces, in collision with the armed force of the r, and your you see to care motors on the nationalist paper, door kitchen series,

as he put in the book is very much in light of the strategy that we owed by the irish. you'd regiment mistake. and it is remarkable that the high he had never been hailed or are all the atrocities of catered on the i'm shop that he give. and as you say, and not only in iron by round, the word where he debated unconquered where they partitioned and where the murdered people to try and pondered any objections to pretty early in whatever content. maybe i went over a 100 bullets shot in 10 minutes on buddy sunday, 50 years ago, but disgraced former c. i a boss general. the trends that he read. frank kitchens book when they're trying to counter insurgency in afghanistan and iraq. what does it make you feel that eventually sunday is somehow connected to the killing, wounding, or displacing of tens of millions of people across the middle east or west asia in

the past few years? well, it, it just as colonial or on the domination that britain has tried here across the world, the empire story to mention what they stay instead of trying to hold on to as many areas. some tests that osman, whether be based in goblins, to eat, to replace others. they partition increased in order to divide and conquer. they all, whether as on the salmon island or the partition in the country after the very sunday of 1920, that jackie then finish up on the c. m strategy on the same idea. there was some say, britain has are not to learn what a one thing that has on it has continued to do. what a don at those times. i'm right to read is colonial. ours, across the word. can you understand why the british government feels of the good friday agreement put a gotten behind all those days and the fact that any a legacy issues, if they were tried in court, might reveal that weapons were being imported from apartheid? south africa and the role of m, i 5,

the building just next to the studio here. and the, the fact that the parent, the clues of behavior, according to the police ombudsman for northern ireland report, which was only released in the past few days when they get quite clear. and just gloucester british government have been involved in a, in no 50 years from the early civil rights campaign. i took part in the force of rice marston, california. and i was lucky if you look up a woman one boat, right to house and right to jo. ann, the british government on storm and at that time couldn't deliver no simple demand because to give people race will stay in the country and they would live for jobs and to stay under that number. they had the union vote in the years to come, so they had the whole collusion, i sure, as been part and parcel of the british controlled island and unable to this day. and there of course, most recent course. norma's mom clearly state that it was collusion in the borders

that collusion directed by the british government collision, implemented by the or u. c, u d r i. and on special branch the importation office as african americans by british agents. i think that a tang whenever the south african regime was come to an end and were the at the british were re army, the loyalist here. i lost the martyrs. that happened on time were borders, catered by who was rapids brought in from south africa. well, i mean, it's your defense. some says the way the army is trained way it works and the way it operates, it will change significantly. what about to jeremy corbin actually i mean some say that he only came within 2227 votes of becoming prime minister of this country. but of course he was very active in the irish civil rights struggle. do you believe that it's a shadow stilling because of a british politics today? the politicians in parliament here cannot speak about the irish civil rights struggle for fear of security services reprisal today. yeah,

i think there's also that fear within them on but it no jeremy i went on and john dawn and others with paul rose was one of the key players at the time of the civil rights champion and even jim gun. and he come to darian id, spoke in relation to rate and the wrongs robin age, the william whitelaw with a shag understand that pro dormant went and he brought an end to storm apartment stone, it no longer up armed or something assembly because they couldn't manage the at the proper control apart and, and they get the special powers at the austrian to get it. they, they should, together on the, into just to internment. no ramp up to with the go ahead from the british government introduced and terminate, which again inflicted wounds on the national people and turn to people who are totally innocent and who weren't involved in any whatsoever. and of course you have to remember stage. it was who iraq in operation no bloody sunday and others brought

out. we became recruitment agents for the ira because the, i want the british government were doing and i don't. and as part of the good friday agreement, m, i 5, are allowed to operate freely with the b s. and i, i'm going to ask about joe biden. he's famously, some people report that his house rocks to the sound to rebel songs in the evening. sometimes obviously britain one's perspective trade deal with united it. do you think bloody sunday is a factor in joe biden? csm actions towards his nato ally, britain. well, i, i don't know the details. i was here. i went to games thinking isn't, but i know a irish american, the democratic party in particular. i've been a key players business with a key player and bring about the good friday agreement. and i think right, of course i, america, there is the good 12 support or the national cause because they know what britain

infected i and over the years debate and, and others know that like the kennedys that actually had to, i'm away from i'm looking for walk because of the actions of the british government in those early years. so it is by important the role of the ash americans and planned in what a good friday agreement and in the political dimension of i can move and things forward. and i think he has made it quite clear that if he interfere with the good for a raymond, that the you, when we know did agreement between britain on the market. and so that's of a strong lever against bars johnston at the present time. and the labor i think that americans look and make sure that the carrier to control, to make sure that they act be a good friend agreement in our compromise and not to damage in any way whatsoever. but remember, the good friday agreement hasn't been fully implemented. we need to see if fully implemented and again know your talk on year after the great fabian with the same and we still haven't got the full implementation of the k for him. and that's up to

both the british and the irish carbon, to make sure as guarantors that they carry that out. because we do have the right to hold on irish unity. and that's been held back by their brenda many secretary state of the present time. it will give that referendum on our mission day in for the people or not. that was one of the guarantees of the gateway agreement. it has never been there. dr. friends, well, i thank you. i do, after the break, and other ne donation atrocity, we speak to an expert witness in the reopening of an investigation into the alleged us back 1999 jesuit priest massacre in el salvador. all the same. all coming up about to have going underground. ah lisa canter,

russian state flow never. i've stayed on the most landscape div. mm hm. and i'm not getting calls, i'll slap them up for a group in a 55 will dissipate. okay, so mine is 25 must be the one on homes with we will van in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state on russia for date and school ortiz spoke. they're given our video agency, roughly all bands on youtube and pinterest, and we put on the question, did you say it was with oh, when i was showing wrong,

when all proofs just don't hold any world? yes, to safe out disdain becomes the advocate and engagement equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah, welcome back 100 years ago today. the 2nd federation of central america comprising latin american nations, we know today formerly dissolved after an attempt to create a regional government and made increased u. s. influence in the region. one of those nations was el salvador, a country which later descended into a 12 year civil war reported the killing of $75000.00 civilians. one of the most notorious crimes during the war was the jesuit massacre of 1989. now, $33.00, as all the salvador in supreme court has ordered the case to be reopened. after

a now overturned amnesty law prevented prosecutions. joining me now from california is a war crimes and human rights investigator of stanford university's political science and latin american studies. department professor terry lynn call. thank you so much professor for coming on in part when we talked about the 50th anniversary of matthew k killing in ireland, known as bloody sunday in the attempt for justice. why is all, salvador, open this criminal investigation into events in 1989? when of course, reagan sounds accused of funding de facto death squads. i think regen actually diff, a funded the you, the salvador and military, which is very important because it was the salvadoran military that started at desk was along with some civilian allies. what they used to do is take off their uniform and then go out and kill people and then put their uniform back on. and then in the case of m a. so tay, which is the worst massacre in our latin american contemporary history. they had

their uniforms on. now, that's really important because we opened the jesuit case. the 1st thing to understand is that the current president has formed an alliance with the military. therefore, is the, to the extent that the jesuit case may or may not be opened, it will be opened on civilians and not on the military. that's my understanding. the civilians or president alfredo christiania, who was president of the arraignment party. and the other one is it is an attorney named robert parker who was quite an enemy of the current government. so what you're seeing here is actually the political manipulation of human rights trials because the civilians will be charged. and i very much doubt we will see any salvador and military charge if they are, they will be very low level if this case proceeds forward i on the, on,

on whether it actually proceeds or it was he, the president denies the that there is anything being cooked here, you testified as an expert witness trials in spain. you expect to be an expert witness in this one. i do not. i think that the spanish have all the evidence they need. they particularly have some of the evidence that the salvadoran government needs. if they were going to proceed with this, i actually think this trial is a way to threaten leaders of the reign of hardy, who i have particularly president christiane. it was just recently revealed in the pandora papers that he has 16 offshore accounts for a lot of quite a lot of money stashed away. and i think this is actually a way to pressure the random party, which the bu keller government would like to see a disappear, i should just quickly say though, next president christiane is already denied involvement in the killing, killing the brace, the investigation. i mean,

i should the investigation do have you ever felt this that it should, it should target fort benning, in georgia, where i understand the ledge killers were all trained the school of the americans. well, you can't really do that under salvadoran law or under command responsibility law. but the killing of the jesuits was ordered from the high command of the military. the high command of the military barry and the highest commander was president christianity. the question is, did he order it or did the top of the military order? if that's really the the issue that was in the spanish case, he was an, an indicted co conspirator. in the spanish case, it is very clear to me, and this makes salvador in law different than spanish law that president christianity knew about this mask. the massacre of the jesuit priest when it happened. and he also, in, was deeply involved in the cover up. that doesn't mean that he was the person who

particularly ordered that according to command responsibility law, if he knew or should have known and failed to prevent this or punish those who carried out the massacre. and then he is, in fact, culpable. so they are going after the civilian top commander of the military, even though he didn't really control the military at the time. well, he denies wrong doing and also anything from li, pandora papers indicating the alleged legality. and i was just go to wilma z o to you better just very briefly tell us of the numbers killed the numbers of children killed. even britain abstained over emotion of you in about advocacy. mrs. thatcher was a friend of general finishes. what happened in mil mazata, a in 1981 in 1981, the salvadoran military. i pushed large part by the united states. i

went into areas that they believed were controlled by the gorillas and they believed that every civilian that lived in those areas by virtue of their geographic location, was a gorilla. and that was never true by the way that civilians always supported whoever occupied their territory. now what happened and on the so day which is as i said, the largest massacre that no of in latin america in contemporary period is the atlas cattle battalion of the, of the salvadoran military which was formed under, i would say u. s to legit was not trained and in this one was not trained in the united states that came later under the jesuits. but what happened here is they invaded the town of elma, so tay, the town was peaceful. it was unarmed the gorillas had left the area cuz they had a great deal of forewarning that this was coming. but in the town of elma,

so say there was a story that the people in elm so day as the largest town would be safe. so lots of people fled into elma, so take much more than the actual population of the city of the vill. it's a little village. and there were about a 1000 people who fled there for safety from the salvador and military. when they got there, the military came in, it had everybody, almost a 1000 people lie down on that they could, everybody, they could find. they pulled him out of their houses. they had them lie down in the plaza and then very strangely, this is never happened before. they let them go back to their homes. that night. it was very clear. they were waiting orders because there were more people in the town . they expected. the orders came the next morning, they pulled everybody out again. at dawn, they separated the men, women, and children. it took the men away 1st. they told the women that they were taking

the men to safety and they killed every one of them. then they kill the women and then they killed the children. the numbers that we work with are approximately 1000 people, of which 553 are under the age of 12 or are very young use. so more than half were children. if you see if you go to elma, so today what you see that we have tried to do is list the names of the children and the very 1st forensic digs which happened during the peace agreements in 1902 or there was only enough money to take up one of the sites where a 124 children and all of these were babies. they were very young or dug up. and i had the sentences of re purported and of, and the children being hang, do you know where we've had to for the national security advisors on this show?

we had right, elliot abrams on he was assistant secretary state at the time and he is subsequently been the special representative of the united states to iran and to venezuela. of course, many allegations about you as well as the venezuela. in recent times he says that the actually the numbers do not tally at all of the for a start. the u. s. military, people like general galvan layton major commander 7th, wanda, would never counter torture. this is more generally there. and as for l mazata, there weren't nearly that number of people. there were only 200 or 300 people though. well, he's using a line of defense minister garcia, who said he has said many things. first. he and elliot abrams and the u. s. government denied that any massacre occurred. the reason we had the 1992 forensic

dig, was because from 1981 to 1992, they denied that there was any massacre. when we dug up the bodies and you could see the bodies of the children were shot, most of them, some were beheaded in the soccer field, and others were hung from the trees. but the children in the dig that we did were killed in what was called the convent, that they were killed and they were buried in a place that we knew of. so the very 1st forensic digs were, digs were bodies of children. it was clear they were all massacred, it was clear, they were mass heard by bullets that had come from missouri in the united states. so the weapons were provided by the united states, those who killed them where the uh, la cancel, there is no doubt of us this. there can be no doubt about this. and one of the things that has been very important in these years from 1990 to the dig all the way

through the trial that was just cancelled in el salvador or stopped in el salvador is that you can on no longer deny this massacre. you cannot deny the numbers. we have the names, we can list the people we have are slowly identifying through dna, the identities of many of the children so that they are very small caskets can be given back to their surviving family members. so, you know, to say that this is exaggerated, it didn't happen that the victims are lying. this was a gorilla plot. some of the, a salvadoran military says that this was a cemetery of the gorillas. none of that is borne out by all the evidence we have and we have a lot of as and say ok, well reagan's as this is like your say, traumas. and the said no evidence to confirm government voices actually systematically, mascot civilians are we later cause i like want to say that he later wrote an op ed

and apologize for that in the new york times, i believe, which goes along with what i'm saying about the denials, but he later apologized. he said there was a massacre. he was sorry, he denied it. he had been given this information and he was sorry, he had testified in the us congress in the way he had. so just to let you know that some of these people have changed their minds. what about what a bronze? because i did notice, i mean, you're on the command, you're the committee of the national endowment for democracy, which we talk about this program a lot as a kind of vanguard, the river god, perhaps of regime change in different countries. so the elliot abrams tell me about how you do what you do, knowing that there are a forces that still one to oppose your view led to what was done was wrong given that abraham. so, you know, in the night he said, what went on, do you think our level of military aid was worth it? he said, yes. knowing the thousands of people the doug course,

he says yes. and he says yes, because us policy at the time under him was the arming. and so salvador and military and this is a military that we knew was killing thousands and thousands and thousands of civilians. what is so shocking about the on the south a massacre is the children. i mean, not, it's not a shocking massacre. i've documented 53. we're all massacres in el salvador and that's, that's only a partial number. he's our big, massive purse there in the rural areas where they're very hard to document because if you don't take out bodies, if you don't go to the rural areas, which was extremely dangerous when we were going there, because that's where all the kids, not all but that's where a lot of the killing was. if you look back at the news, then people covered mostly urban killings and desk, white killings. but what was happening the same time. and elliot abrams was fully

aware of this. he's just not telling the truth and i want to say something about him. he was indicted and convicted of perjury. so the fact that the another administration brought him back and tried to rehabilitate him, he did line a congress. he was convicted of that and he may be in the national endowment of democracy, but i am not if there my name is listed there, that's an error. i was surprised to verify that i never knew that. so thank you for that. know what i have been on is the board of the journal of democracy and that is financed by the national endowment of democracy. and i have never believed in my entire career that democracy was like, well, and it could be exported. and my, one of my favorite lines in the iraq war was one of the iraq ministers who said, if you think we produce carrots, do you think we would be invaded? so there is a difference in

a scholarly difference. if i can put it that way between who funds you and the kinds of academic freedom we are supposed to have in the journal. wow. professor dairyland go. thank you. that's it for one of your favorite shows of the season. the team and i will be back soon with a brand new look, but until then you can keep in touch, why all of social media, if it's available in your country and remember, you can continue to watch, will going underground episodes on auto see. and it auto comb see very soon with ah

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a new nation, and this is the see every single village taken from ukrainian troops with those fighting in the don't boss region continues and artsy crew that is an abundance school used by ukrainian troops as a defensive position, also coming up a barricade buyers and violent classes with the police, a seat on the streets of paris under the french cities incumbent president micron when the presidential race and western.