in russia, as estimates claim that the most names make up between 10 to 15 percent of the country's population. now on top of that asylum is the 2nd largest religion in the country after orthodox christianity. right now we are the most go uh, kathy droll moss, which is one of the biggest most in europe. and it was said to a host around 200000 people today. and in general, in moscow and in the moscow region, it was also estimated that between 302350000 people will be celebrated. now of course, the smallest right here is the main venue, but that also will there are alternatives in moscow and the moscow region. now, as you would expect, also there's some rows were blocked, temporarily blocked and restricted the due to the celebration. but also security was quite tight. uh, i mean there was and there's still is police pretty much everywhere. monitoring the situation, keeping people safe as well. now just to tell you

a little bit about the celebration itself, say them further, which literally would translate to the celebration of breaking the fast. it marks the end, the phenomenon, which is the holy as month in the stomach calendar where most slims would fast from sunrise to sunset. and so today is the 1st day in a month where they can have meals and water throughout the day. the way they celebrate, typically is they would, uh, you know, visit family. uh they would go out to a new traditional attire. they would fees throughout the day uh, on, uh, traditional suites, traditional meals. so uh, this day for most things is very significant and uh, with that of course it becomes a normal working day in most mostly countries, including the most frequent, most number of publics enrol side that is diagnosed on chechnya in blue shirts. yep . that, that's done. and so on. so overall the celebration is all about smart. can you

begin is for muslims, and also be unkind and just having fun, essentially. to stay with r t international up next on cross talk, peter lavelle and his guests discuss nato's inevitable acceptance that its proxy war on russia is failing. bye. a. the . the hello and welcome to cross software. all things are considered on peter lavelle. sometimes words do matter. nato secretary general felton berg says ukraine may have to compromise with russia what that compromise might be is left on an answer. nonetheless, it is an acknowledgment nato's proxy war on russia. it is ending in failure.

the prospect in ukraine i'm joined by my guest, pasco love, the house in keel. he's an associate professor at t o tow university in montreal. we have matthew aaron. he is a senior fellow at the american university of moscow and director of the rising tide foundation of canada. and here in moscow we have pierre and menu, well told month to use electorate, leon university, our gentleman prospect rolls in effect. that means he can jump any time you want, and i always appreciated pasco, let me go to you and kill to it, because you are staying up late. i usually say you got up early, you're staying up late to do this program. you know, it's spelt and bird is a very interesting creature to observe. he's obviously just a mouth piece for the alliance, probably on speed dial to washington. but it does come out with these things that do. we should pay attention to that there that ukraine is going to have to make some compromises. this is a, is, this is a way,

an off ramp for nato as it approaches its 75th anniversary, with not much to be proud of pascal as well. i would hope that natal fine and he understands that an offer on this needed now that it has seemed basically all of this equipment destroyed by russia in ukraine on the ukrainians. little by little losing the ability to fight this war because they're running out of man, right? with out external intervention in the form of boots on the ground, which actually differential the british are not working on. but without that, there is just no realistic scenario anymore. even to drag out the war, i mean, in europe the all the talk is that because it's the ultimate, but even that is a law, right. it's not a stone me. russia is now is no really empty advantage and can push on. so it seems to me that realism seeps through and natal understands that an offer of these

needed and this is the 1st kind of signs may be that they are willing to consider it. well matthew would be the maybe the argument that we are hearing now is that, and it's been for, i guess now for the last 6 months, more aid is necessary to give the ukrainians a better advantage at the negotiating table. but matthew, if you think about it, the more money is sent ukraine and material, the less territories a control is, but you can get smaller and smaller with more and more money being side cafe. see this is their causality issue here. matthew, it's difficult to say what they can or cannot see. i have to admit when we're dealing with these types of tech and crowds were so removed from a battlefield or any plane of reality and are so used to being conditioned by game theory, models, and think tanks without any attachment to reality. so when they come up with an assessment it's oh, is a little strange. try to get into their shoes by curious. we but i think you're, you're correct. there has been embarrassing over 2 years,

lack of any type of progress and, and just the reverse has happened. the more money is pouring into the, the, the, the culture in the less results has tended to be the outcome. and even the i master said, has had to make demonstrations that the data cannot be fledged out that much or any more. it's very difficult as much time as normally fudge of data and has demonstrated that, unlike the forecast that russia would be destroyed by this time much earlier on, they were supposed to be economically destroyed. the all i'm asking you for recent reports has had to admit that they are now the, the bypass of germany as far as becoming the, the world's 5th largest economy, the most powerful economy and all of europe. they've not, they've only benefited in many ways by virtue of what has been done sanction wise and everything else in the war is just one aspect of the failure of planning bodies . technocrats. so yeah, it's a well, well, it's difficult. i do think that there is like the previous speaker said some bending to reality currently. well, parent manuel here in moscow. what, what's,

what's, what's really quite curious is that, you know, we have someone like cells and birds saying that ukraine may have to compromise. they all people like felton berg, the rest of them. they always forget the other party in the complex russia. maybe russia doesn't want to compromise that they considered that purity manual. of course, not. as they know, they should concede over a bunch of seville, narrow teeth, and the narrow t for, for starting to think about a compromising is because they know the, i'll go not lose more and more we've time. russia is getting low ground and do they try to hide disrupted you? disaster. and this is the time where they from bill potent of you need to us to concede or to, to compromise, to, to stop for a russians to advance and to try to, to save of arrest over ukraine. but actually, are russia as and that's the same interest of russia wants to achieve,

is for object teeth, which is to update a new chart is ation of ukraine. but also, but you, your queen regime is not this threat anymore to russia. so each much mo, under of the more we wait, the move of the result of compromise. we'd be at the higher cost for you queen of the west. well, you know, the passcode one of the, the, the difficult things in, in trying to understand this complex, if you look at both sides, neither the 2 sides are speaking and very different languages and then they have different ways of understanding it. and what, how it came about, what i'm getting on here is that the russians always talk about their security, the europeans, and the americans talk about their so called values. that's why we're not getting anywhere. pasco, yeah, russian has made it pretty clear what these war is about for them. and the fact that on social media ending programs like these,

these message has been clearly understood. it has been discussed for 2 years. the fact that that also by the way that we know that this is about neutralizing ukraine as a threats and, and making sure that russia will be safe. he's a very different approach, and this must be a, i mean, but public media in europe into us. this is a completely different thing. it's propaganda. the propaganda is on a different level and it is still on a different level but, but we now see that the people in power actually do understand that what, what they publicly say and what, how they actually interpret russia are not necessarily the same. so this is the best chance that we have that actually, you know, the people who are responsible for about the diplomats and also the military people will start talking things into the politicians in, in, in, in europe telling them, look at some point we need to actually discuss with the russians what they want

because they are winning or difficult. they won't, old of winning. ukraine is something, you know, these to get much worse. we have to buy really the passcode, you know, right in december of 2021 before the start of the conflict in the february after the russians told the world telegraph the whole world what they wanted. that's exactly what they want today. nothing has really changed. they want security, okay, they don't want, they want a neutral ukraine and they don't want a nato moving eastward. those are this, that still the same things. let me move over to, to matthew here, the, the undertaker of the west, tony blinking, we step of to not to new cycles ago was standing next to the ukranian for ministers . i. ukraine will be part of nature. we haven't gotten much progress here. have we? matthew, you know, yeah, all, all you, all that needs to happen is, russian needs to be defeated and then you praise is going to become part of nato. that's. that's easy because obviously the 2nd been ukraine is part of nato. that's

world war 3 because there's a lot of, obviously, a powerful interest itching to invoke the article 5 collective security packed. so that's not something that, that will happen directly unless you really do want an all out throw nuclear war, which i don't think that there is that in seen. so i don't think that there's a lot behind those. the mid matthew, you're, i'm a, i'm sorry, the rapids, you're absolutely right that the in lieu of saying something else, they don't have in lieu of something else or just say, and of course, you know that there is no time table. there no condition you just will be you, you will eventually will be. i mean if i with you crazy and so i said, i would say we need to negotiate the end of this thing here because you can't trust these western partners. i'm sorry, matthew, keep going. yeah, no, absolutely. but then you, you have like, uh, what's the name of alexandra of leo? public? who is the, the, the land force commander saying that all citizens must be prepared to buy and thus implicitly die under throwing out people per play chicks,

people who are mentally described a you got a lot of a lot of people just being thrown his ken fodder right now, and they're doubling down and ukraine on the fact that they're the gospel from 2 years ago, somehow still applicable. and it's certainly not. the reality is completely completely showing a different picture and they're not able to conform to it. so i don't know with, with blinking why he chose to say that it's just that they're incapable of shifting away property from their narrative. that's right. there's only one gear. these people have only one gear up here in menu. well, what, what is interesting with, with the french proposal, i'm not really sure what my problem really means. a french soldier is nato soldiers . is that a blog? this is a bless and a i think a narrative mistake as well. because or actually we have to understand the context, vera europe and elections in europe. empowerment and are very well positioned pots

you'd like to look in. paul t is file here. read ahead of the box. you of a menu item. i cool. and the popular menu item, i can choose full feel not teeth to, to, to push the, the socks that to the, on the side of the plane of freedom of democracy against ab to russia. and the, to accuse the look and talk to you to be a promo to offer russian the objective son and to be put you to agents. this is totally ridiculous and envy you can pay. you can notice a french paper doesn't suck this narrative very. they want to vote more, more for nation are from so reset, thoughts are not you've said or on the same time or so. and then you get a mock hole once you to make friends, read your of you and do advice reporting. you create a gets rush out to, to take advantage of in an opportunistic way of the situation and do to be able to

lead or in competition with germany. because french was always in competition, germany to lead your project as a could notice about nobody in you want this to be told anything. and to be led by you are a money order my call on especially to put troops on the ground against russia, which would go to west front our wall and continue, but many exp, but so many to or even know it's not possible. it would be a disaster, so it has to be a mistake in terms of narrative and also jump on. all right, hold on to that thought the wrong of it. we have to go to a hard break gentleman. and after that hard break, we're going to continue, continue our discussion on ukraine, stay with the

of the same rom, just don't have to safe house because the application

and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves will support. we choose to look for common ground, the the welcome back to across stock were all things are considered. i'm curious about your mind you were discussing. you create the hey, let's go back to pasco and, and kill to i think one thing. and if we look over the last 2 years of a few things, i think we could all agree on this, isn't it? lead warm up here. and manuel was telling us about how friends people feel about it . this is an a lead ward. they, they expected rush, it would collapse instantly. you know, the sanctions we did with the rubel would become rubble and all of these type of

thing. but the only thing they seem to have in common right now is that they don't know how to win because they've lost. so their alternative is just to keep it going . that's what they're doing, just keep it going. pasco, i mean, you're, you're set that there is no timeline, but there actually isn't, that's november of this year because that's the big election in the united states. and it is to me relatively clear that all the democrats and to you as a trying to do is to keep it going until beyond the election. when either shall bide any save in the saddle for another 4 years. and you can like, you know, connected paper out um, whatever it is, or donald trump wins and you can pin it on him. so the really like for the, for the americans at this point is to, to have it going for another house a year without ukraine collapsing for reputational purposes for the europeans. it's a completely different games. europeans, as, as he said, they, they, they hung themselves in their own words. and that's why we see my call trying to

one up the game and even maybe go further than what, what nature would be would be willing to, to do one on their own. but this is such a risky gamble like no, that would be because it could buy this in world war 3. but also if it, it, it backfires, you know, he loses credibility in, in europe, the europe, he ends up above and go from a bad place to the worst, play it out of their own miscalculations and so well put, matthew, you know, the, the, the, the adage and politics never let a crisis go to waste. i think that's exactly what your opinion leaders are thinking that would be safe, but brussels is it. this is a catastrophe. so let's take advantage of it. like let's pursue greater federal ization. let's allow brussels to start directly taxing the end individual citizens of the you not nation states, but brussels gets the do it. i mean, this is one of the reasons why i think there's a big competition in europe who is going to be harder on the russians. because this

has an opportunity to transform europe in a way that voters will not have no saying whatsoever. matthew, will the, the, the destruction of any type of legitimate democracy in europe has been a long time coming and has been part partly the manifestation of the sorts of ideas we had originally seen where the century going merge out of the mind of people. i couldn't hold the colored z with his a pen, europa of fascist movement that had a variety of, of hyper fascist, like delma shocked me. circles around. but benito, mussolini, many, many of the most hard core you genesis with global as we're all circulating around could involve declared these idea of creating a united states of europe. which ended up either adopting the outline to becky himself, designed with beethoven's 9th symphony bay hoping would not be happy with that as the anthem. and ever since world war 2 ended, there has been an immediate effort to try to re purpose and, and put back into play with churchill was a big follower of, you know, leo,

emory's kid, julian, and many others were all a advocates, including the head of the british, a fascist party himself, oswald moseley was a big promoter of this thing. and this became increasingly a federal realized structure that would have more power as far as an unelected bureaucracy above those elected components of the nation. and elizabeth trudy was just a more recent example of this thing. advancing forward it in opposition to the actual democratic will of the people of europe who didn't want this. they would be voted, knowing it didn't, it was still forced down the throats of the irish and others. and so i think you're right in this crisis is being used to advance a more direct tutorial. uh, up or down shift of uh of this whole new world order again. yeah. and, and if you don't fall in line like got hungry or slovakia you will pay the consequences as you are a slave underlay. and so we have the tools. okay, very famously here menu, well, i mean what, what is the, what does your get out of, of the supporting this war?

i mean, i, i see no upside whatsoever. you see european a leads and a band doing their own self interest, their sovereign interest, this opportunity for us to, to see solve the bundle of you all for very the you are p and i, you know, want you to a, always to push for a federal integrated europe before the crisis in ukraine. the europe and projects was already in a very bad situation because various investors on this report from the people are economically he doesn't work anymore, but your role is a disaster and the european union as no voice in the world. or will the claim to be jump with the car actually, or between the us, russia, china in your they all week or on the week or, and this crises in ukraine. they've been money to date. they've been no actually visual in west approval to buy your buy. you need to

a document on the fuse or for washing to to negotiated. we brush a new or your pin 6. you which a tricky arrangement as the e u. member states. they photo the yours. ok 20 the, the government's one fable. brittany would in the integration like you're the french of adjustments. they use it in no fault. you need to use a book junior, this way, to save the european project, to, to a 5, a new enemy, russia to push for more european integration. orval people are less, less in favor of you. so actually this, you, this is a sign of vast saudi zation over you to natal under the same time. it's because in term that e, v r a week or on mo, mo, divided between member states. that's a reality tv. it tried to hide, you rush up, you keep the escape, go to of europe and you and your problems. yes. and, and repair and then you, well,

it also gives them reasons to put a push censorship in the platform. mean people, all the, all the name of national security, of course here, you know, pest go one of the things that to it. we have the 75th anniversary of the official 17th and 5th anniversary party of nato in washington in july. and then, you know, the nato is good at p r. i mean, that's mostly what they do, but they're facing us catastrophic strategic defeat. and that's something they can not contemplate. pasco, i warn you though, you know, a, a base this award that nato didn't win, which is different from the defeats. i would really not want to see an actual real fight between nato troops and russia, which will be weight uglier than what we've seen so far. so guess, nato will gets moves and nato and the nato countries will try to improve their entire industrial chain because they didn't know the news strategically. the last,

the, the, the production game of, of, of a major war in, in europe. and they will try to improve that over time. but they didn't, they just didn't wait and ukraine. i would not want to see them challenge to the point where they would actually go into the field and shifting to a different gear, which would be world war 3. well, i mean, again, there's one or 2 ways you can go. there's a path a is, is, is pascal side, you know, okay, lick your wounds, you didn't when you crane. okay. but that's not the lesson learned. tier one downside of this is that now nato and certainly has an enemy, remember all before this, you know, rushed as an adversary. we haven't, we're not threatening russia. this is not about nato expansion. the other nonsense of but now they can say, well, we got a real adversary here, which really interesting. matthew is the only 37 percent of the members of nato. actually spend 2 percent of their g, d, p on defense. so, i mean, if russia is such

a huge threat to the european con in why on are the all the countries spending 110 percent? go ahead, matthew. know that that's a fund data point that i was just reading how the us investors, the data was chest izing, the, the other non paying members as, as you're correct. if this really was a threats. if there were this was a serious, a high priority. you would imagine that a much more than the 2 percent minimum would be spent. we see rushes spend well over 6 percent of their gdp on dealing with what they value as a very high priority to deal with the nazis, me encroaching nieto in circuit of their country. that's what you do when you're, when you have a real threat, you spend the appropriate money. and as it turns out they've wise, we'd be able to solidify a vast amount of positive relationships with your res road. that is provided to a greater hope for real integration of your asia and stabilization, based on progress of real durable friendships and trust that anything we've ever seen before. so that's good, but no,

you're right. there's just no actual follow through. so you can see that people are just being strong arms by a sort of force that, that must not be spoken about in polite society in public, to say certain words. but there's not an ability to actually act in walk the walk, which is just part of this whole, you know, detached technocratic scripts which, which wants to impose their opinions reality onto the world without actually recognizing that the world isn't that way. yeah, and they're just to use the plain god for too long. that's why we have this program . we, you know, we're not, we're not polite society. okay. so right here. imagine, well, one of the, the, the greatest um hopes of the european union was 2 things. peace and prosperity. they're neither are in place right now. the meeting europe is, is a single bit biggest loser outside of ukraine, of course. and this entire ridiculous can, but go ahead. so yes, actually the program is your pen union is not uh it,

or to them was project from a washington. actually, you're the open project. is it the sup uh, strategy of for washington to control the re, milan to, to, to against russia. because the washington's as destructive g or for controlling your racial, we for your banner, we blonde on the one side and into pacific on the other side and european union with these crises more on move us. how used by a natal, i mean, is less security instead of for initial project of your project, west piece on their way used as a weapon against russia. and or this is why the, the, the project with a good, we need more and more in a crisis on that for less on this reports of, of people are on the 20, the european union or so is not defending europe a set you up and civilization know your pin balance of power, which will include,

of course, of rush because rush i spots of european civilization and is unable. and you raise your to, to, to europe and or 20 european union became a little more a tour to defend a u. x. run chic space under our say the western dominance of award, which is not working anymore in front of and merge and so nurtured port on words. so we are losing, in terms of a school system, each or a system of international relations and give us why we are so afraid of each company. well, i think we could just say, thankfully, it's the end of the rule space order. all right, gentleman, that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guessing k o. so montreal and here in moscow. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. and next time, remember, cross circles, the of the,

the russian states never have side as one of the most sense community best of all sense and up the, in the system must be the one else holes. question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin, the machine, the state on the rush for the day and split the r t. suppose next, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube tv services. for what question did you say, even closer to the

washington is quick to dismiss a bombshell statement from russia's investigative committee that accuses a ukrainian company linked to view as president son hunter, by the end of sponsoring in terror attacks against russia. but who is harmful russians? pre military equipment has been destroyed without the loss of the single american life. this is an investment in united states security threatens foreign secretary hills. the western sponsorship of ukraine has great bang for the boss, cuz that allows us to keep it tends to clean and another country from the south holding israel responsible for its action policy.