the the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross software. all things are considered on peter lavelle. sometimes words do matter. nato secretary general stilton burke says ukraine may have to compromise with russia what that compromise might be is left on answer. nonetheless, it is an acknowledgment nato's proxy war on russia. it is ending in failure. the crust sucking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, pasco, look,

house in kyoto. he's an associate professor at t o university. in montreal, we have matthew aaron. he is a senior fellow at the american university of moscow and director of the rising tide foundation of canada. and here in moscow we have appeared in menu, well to among t is electorate. leon university. quite gentleman, comstock rolls and effect. that means you can jump any time you want, and i always appreciated pasco, let me go to you and kill to it, because you are staying up late. i usually say you got up early, you're staying up late to do this program. you know, it's spelt and burke is a very interesting creature to observe. he's obviously just a mouth piece for the alliance, probably on speed dial to washington. but he does come out with these things that do. we should pay attention to that there that ukraine is going to have to make some compromises. this is a, is, this is a way, an offer ramp for nato, as it approaches it's 75th anniversary, with not much to be proud of. us go as well. i would hope that natal fine

and he understands that an offer on these needed now that it has seemed basically all of this equipment destroyed by russia in ukraine on the ukrainians. little by little losing the ability to fight the support because they're running out of man, right? with out external intervention in the form of boots on the ground, which actually differential the british are now working on. but without that, there is just no realistic scenario anymore. even to drag out the war, i mean, in europe the all the talk is that because as told me, but even that is a lot, right. it's more of a stall me. russia is now is no really and the advantage and can push on. so it seems to me that realism seeps through and nato understands that an offer of these needed. and this is the 1st kind of signs may be that they are willing to consider it. well matthew would be the, the, the, the argument that we're hearing now is that, and it's been for, i guess now for the last 6 months, more aid is necessary to give the ukrainians

a better advantage at the negotiating table. but matthew, if you think about it, the more money is sent ukraine and material, the less territory they control is what you can get smaller and smaller with more and more money being. so tat, they see this is their causality issue here. matthew, it's difficult to say what they can or cannot see. i have to admit when we're dealing with these types of technic crowds or so removed from a battlefield or any plane of reality and are so used to being conditioned by game theory, models and think tanks without any attachment to reality. so when they come up with an assessment it's oh, is a little strange. try to get into their shoes by curious. we but i think you're, you're correct. there has been embarrassing over 2 years, lack of any type of progress and, and just the reverse has happened. the more money is pouring into the, the, the, the culture in the less results has tended to be the outcome. and even the i master said,

has had to make demonstrations that the data cannot be fledged out that much or, or any more. it's very difficult as much time as normally fudge of data and has demonstrated that, unlike the forecast that russia would be destroyed by this time much earlier on, they were supposed to be economically destroyed. the i'm asking you for recent reports has had to admit that they are now the, the bypass of germany as far as becoming the, the world's 5th largest economy, the most powerful economy in all of europe. they've not, they've only benefited in many ways by virtue of what has been done, section wise and everything else in the wars. just one aspect of the failure of planning bodies technocrats. so yeah, it's a while, while it's difficult. i do think that there is like the previous speaker said some bending to reality currently. well, parent manuel here in moscow. what, what, what's, what's, what's really quite curious is that, you know, we have someone like cells and birds saying that ukraine may have to compromise. they all people like felton berg, the rest of them. they always forget the other party in the complex russia. maybe

russia doesn't want to compromise, said they considered that appear in manual. of course not. they know they should concede over budget, so they own narrative. and the narrow t for, for starting to think about a compromising is because they know the, i'll go not lose more and more we've time. russia is getting moke around and do they try to hide v strategic disaster. and this is the time where they from bill potent of you need to us to concede or to, to compromise, to, to stop for russians to advance and to try to, to save of the rest of the ukraine, about 20 or a russia us. and that's the same interest of russia wants to achieve is for object teeth, which is to update a new charges ation of ukraine. but also, but you, your queen regime is not this correct anymore to russia. so each much mole and the

of the mole, we weight, the move of the result of compromise. we'd be up to a higher cost for you queen of the west. well, you know, the passcode one of the, the, the difficult things in, in trying to understand this complex, if you look at both sides, neither the 2 sides are speaking and very different languages and then have different ways of understanding it and what, how it came about what i'm getting on here is that the russians always talk about their security, the europeans, and the americans talk about their so called values. that's why we're not getting anywhere else go yeah, russian has made it pretty clear what these war is about for them on the fact that on social media and in programs like these, these message has been clearly understood. it has been discussed for 2 years. the fact that that also remind wells that we know that this is about neutralizing ukraine as a threats and, and making sure that russia will be safe. it's

a very different approach and this must be heard. i mean, but public media in europe, in, in the us, this is a completely different thing. it's propaganda. the propaganda is on a different level and it is still on a different level but, but we now see that the people in power actually do understand that what, what they publicly say and what, how they actually interpret russia are not necessarily the same. so this is the best chance that we have that actually, you know, the people who are responsible for the diplomats and also the military people will start talking things into the politicians in, in, in, in europe, telling them, look at some point we need to actually discuss with the russians, what they want because they are winning or difficult. they one old of winning ukraine is something you know, this could get much worse. we have to buy really the house calls the, you know,

right. in december of 2021. before the start of the conflict in the february, after the russians told the world, tell about the whole world what they wanted, that's exactly what they want today. nothing has really changed. they want security, okay? they don't want, they want a neutral ukraine, and they don't want a nato moving eastward. those are this sense still the same things. let me move over to, to matthew here, the, the undertaker of the west pony blinking. we sent a 2, not a 2 new cycles ago was standing next to the ukranian for ministers. i ukraine will be part of nature. we haven't met. go gotten much progress here. have we, matthew? you know? yeah. all, all you, all that needs to happen is russian needs to be defeated and then you praise is going to become part of nato. that's. that's easy because obviously the 2nd and the credit is part of nato. that's world war 3 because there's a lot of, obviously, a powerful interest itching to invoke the article 5 collective security packed. so that's not something that,

that will happen directly unless you really do want it all out of thermo nuclear war, which i don't think that there is that in seen. so i don't think that there's a lot behind those in the mid, matthew, you're, i'm a, i'm sorry to interrupt, but you're absolutely right. the, the in lieu of saying something else, they don't have in lieu of something else or just say, and of course, you know that there's no time table. there no condition you just will be you, you will eventually will be. i mean, if i with you crazy and so i said, i would say we need to negotiate the end of this thing here because you can't trust these western partners. i'm sorry, matthew, keep going. yeah, absolutely. but then you, you have like, uh, what's the name of alexandra up of leo, the public. who is the, the, the land force commander saying that all citizens must be prepared to fight and thus implicitly die under throwing up people. paraplegics, people who are mentally described a you got a lot of a lot of people just being thrown his ken fodder right now, and they're doubling down and ukraine on the fact that they're the gospel from 2 years ago,

somehow still flexible. and it's certainly not the reality is completely completely showing a different picture and they're not able to conform to it. so i don't know with, with blinking why he chose to say that it's just that they're incapable of shifting away property from their narrative. that's right. there's only one gear, these people have only one year appear in menu. well, what, what is interesting with, with the french proposal, i'm not really sure it wouldn't background really means a french soldier as nato soldiers. and is that a blog does abreast on a i think in narrative mistake as well because or oc, 20, we have to understand the context for europe and elections in europe in parliament, and are very well positioned pots you'd, i could look in potty is far here read ahead of the box you of a menu item. i cool. and the popular menu item i can choose fulfill narrow teeth to, to,

to push the fox is about to be on the side of you play the freedom of demo crusty, against a view to russia. and to accuse the loop in part to you to be a promoter of the russian, the objectives, son, and to be put you to agents. this is totally ridiculous and envy you can pay. you can notice a french paper doesn't suck this narrative very. they, they want to vote to more, more for nation are from so reset, taught, narrative said, or under the same time or so. and when you had a mock hole, want you to make friends relieved or of you uh, entered by supporting your queen and gets rush out to, to take advantage of in an opportunistic way of your situation. and do it to be able to lead or in competition with germany because french was always in competition, germany to lead the european project. and eric would notice about nobody in you

want. busy this to be told anything and to be led by you are a money order my co on especially to put troops on the ground. it gets russia, which when you go to twit front tire war and continue. but many experts on many tell even know it's not possible, it would be a disaster. so it has to be a mistake in terms of narrative and also jump words. all right, hold on to that thought the wrong of it. we have to go to a hard break gentlemen, and after that hard break, we're going to continue. continue our discussion on ukraine, stay with us. the, the,

the, [000:00:00;00] the, in the 1870s, the colonial expansion of the british empire in the nile valley increase. the british decided to get complete control over sudan. however, the deeply religious people of that country did not want to obey 4 laws. the unceremonious intervention of british officials led peoples discontent. it spokesman was that the logins mohammed off thought the frog blamed himself the marty. the amazon, he began to gather an army against the invaders. by 1884, most of the sudanese cities were in the hands of the modern great britain decided

to intervene directly. but the troops of ahmad gave the invaders a drubbing. in 1885. the rebels, the capital car to the feet of britain was don't only by the very end of the 19th century. after the death of ahmad, the british were able to regain their control of sudan. unable to defeat the living body, the british took revenge on the dead one. his remains were drawn out of the mazda liam, and thrown away into the nile. ahmad said was brought to england as a trophy. however, the victory of the modest revolt became the 1st successful action of the peoples of africa against the colonial oppression, and remained a dark stain on the reputation of the british empire. the take a fresh look around his life kaleidoscopic isn't just

a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions. the fixtures designed to simplify all confused who really wants a better wills, and is it just because it shows you a few fractured images presented to this, but can you see through their illusion going underground? can j. k itself, the gaining independence and from the form of the ivory coast remained under the strong influence of his foam and metropolitan pro french president. felix, who said one year, ruled the country for 33 years, ensuring the interest to from the dead. the government dean isn't it enough? then there's no simple new foster larry shifted upwards was douglas who saw him and

the more appropriate after the death of, of a one year, a new lead to long come back. the ball came to power. and i'm ready to double, for example, the accuracy. why do you know if we're picking up from the input? isn't that a lot for tiffany? to one is the one that buses into the bronze demetrius the dean. good luck. boeing . enemy, a deep political crisis ensued. walk a, the country 2nd largest city, turned into a theater of law from 130 to the other 2.8, the rotors of mortgage. how did the dramatic events unfold? and how is block a recovering from? he is a bloody conflict. watch on see the

show seemed wrong. just don't have to shape house because after an engagement it close the trail. when so many find themselves will support. we choose to look so common ground the the welcome back to across the dock were all things are considered. i'm curious about your mind you were discussing. you create the hey, let's go back to pasco and in kill to i think one thing and if we look over the last 2 years of a few things, i think um, we could all agree on this as an elite warm up here. and manual was telling us about how friends people feel about it. this is an a lead ward. they,

they expected rush, it would collapse instantly. you know, the sanctions would, with the ruble would become rubble and all of these type of thing. but the only thing they seem to have in common right now is that they don't know how to win because they've lost. so their alternative is just to keep it going. that's what they're doing, just keep it going. pasco, i mean, you're, you're set that there is no timeline, but there actually isn't, that's november of this year, because that's the big election in the united states. and it is to me relatively clear that full, that the democrats and to you as a trying to do is to keep it going until beyond the election. when either shall bide any saving the saddle for another 4 years. and you can like, you know, kinetic paper out, whatever it is, or donald trump wins and you can pin it on him. so they really like for the, for the americans at this point is to have to have it going for another house a year without ukraine collapsing for reputational purposes for the europeans. it's

a completely different game, the or b and as, as he said, they, they, they hung themselves in their own words. and that's why we see my call trying to one up the game and even maybe go further then what, what nature would be would be willing to, to do one on their own. but this is such a risky gamble like no, that would be because it could buy this in world war 3, but also it, it, it, it backfires, you know, use as a credibility in, in europe. so that your opinions at the bottom and go from a bad place to the worst, play it out of their own miscalculations and so well put, matthew, you know, the, the, the, the adage and politics never let a crisis go to waste. i think that's exactly what your opinion leaders are thinking that would be sleep, but brussels is it. this is a catastrophe. so let's take advantage of it. let's, let's pursue greater federal ization. let's allow brussels to start directly taxing the end of the individual citizens of the not nation states, but brussels gets the do it. i mean, this is one of the reasons why i think there's

a big competition in europe who is going to be harder on the russians. because this is an opportunity to transform europe in a way that voters will not have no saying whatsoever. matthew will the, the destruction of any type of legitimate democracy in europe has been a long time coming and has been part partly the manifestation of the sorts of ideas we had originally seen where the century going merge out of the mind of people. i couldn't hold the colored z with his a pen, europa of fascist movement that had a variety of, of hyper fascist, like you almost shocked me. circles around, but benito, mussolini, many, many of the most hard core you genesis with global as we're all circulating around critical declared these idea of creating a united states of europe. which ended up either adopting the outline that, that he himself, designed with beethoven's 9th symphony b hoping would not be happy with that as the anthem. and ever since world war 2 ended, there has been an immediate effort to try to re purpose and,

and put back into play. the churchill was a big follower of, you know, leo, emory's kid, julian, and many others were all a advocates, including the head of the british, a fascist party himself. oswald moseley, would it be promoter of this thing? and this became increasingly a federal rely structure that would have more power as far as an unelected bureaucracy above those elected components of the nation. and elizabeth trudy was just a more recent example of this thing, advanced and forward in opposition to the actual democratic will of the people of europe who didn't want this. they would be voted, knowing it didn't, it was still forced down the throats of the irish and others. and so i think you're right in this crisis is being used to advance a more gifted tauriel up or down shift of, of this whole new world order. again, but yeah, but if you don't fall in line like got hungry or slovakia you will pay the consequences as you are a slave underlay. and so we have the tools. okay, very famously. um yeah, it's fairly menu. well, i mean what, what is the,

what does your get out of, of this supporting this war? i mean, i, i see no upside whatsoever. you see european a leads a band doing their own self interest, their sovereign interest. so actually we have to, to see from the point of view of for very the you are p and i, you want you to a, always to push for a federal integrate in europe before the crisis in ukraine. the europe and projects was already in a very bad situation because babies lester's, on this report from the people are economically he doesn't work anymore. but your role is a disaster and the european union as no voice in the world. or will the claim to be jo, put the card actually, or between the us, russia, china in your they all week or on the week or? and this crises in you quin they've been money 2 digits. they'd be no,

actually this one was provo to buy, you buy, you need to announcement of the fuse or for washington to negotiated. we brush a new or your pin 6. you which a tricky regiment. as the e u. member states they photo the yours. ok. 20 the, the government's wide fable between you and, and the integration like you're the french of adjustments. they use it in no fault . you're new to a fault. you need this way to save the european project to, to a fight, a new enemy, russia to push for more european integration. orval people are less, less in favor of you. so actually this, you, this is a sign of vast saudi zation over you to natal under the same time. it's because in term that e, v r a week or on mo, mo, divided between member states. that's a reality to try to hide. you rush, i'd be kids escape go to or are you open?

you and your problems? yes. and in the parent manuel. it also gives them reasons to put a push censorship in the platform. mean people, all the, all the name of national security, of course here, you know, pest go one of the things that to it. we have the 75th anniversary of the official 75th anniversary party of nato in washington in july. and then, you know, the nato is good at p r. i mean, that's mostly what they do, but they're facing this catastrophic strategic defeat. and that's something they can not contemplate, pasco, i warn you though, you know, a, this is a war that made to didn't win, which is different from the defeats. i would really not want to see an actual real fight between nato troops and russia, which will be weight uglier than what be seen so far. so guess, nato will, it gets, moves,

and nato and the nato countries will try to improve their entire industrial chain. because they didn't know the news strategically, the last, the, the, the production game of, of, of a major war in, in europe. and they will try to improve that over time. but they didn't, they just didn't, we knew crane. i would not want to see them challenge to the point where they would actually go into the field and shifting to a different gear, which would be world war 3. well, i mean, i guess there's one or 2 ways you can go, there's a path a is a, is, is pascal side, you know, okay, nick, you won't, you didn't when you crane. okay. but that's not the lesson learned. tier one downside of this is that now nato and certainly has an enemy, remember all before this, you know, rushed as an adversary. we haven't, we're not threatening russia. this is not about nato expansion. the other nonsense is, but now they can say, well, we got a real adversary here, which really interesting. matthew is the only 37 percent of the members of nato. actually spend 2 percent of their g, d, p on defense. so, i mean,

if russia is such a huge threat to the european con in why on are the all the countries are spending 110 percent? go ahead, matthew. know that that's a fund data point that i was just reading how the us investors in a to his chest izing the, the other non paying members as, as you're correct. if this really was a threats. if there were this was a serious, a high priority. you would imagine that a much more than the 2 percent minimum would be spent. we see rushes spend well over 6 percent of their g d p on dealing with what they value as a very high priority to deal with the nazis, me encroaching needle in circuit of their country. that's what you do when you're, when you have a real threat, you spend the appropriate money. and as it turns out they've wise, we'd be able to solidify a vast amount of positive relationships with your res road. that is provided to a greater hope for real integration of your asia and stabilization, based on progress of real durable friendships and trust that anything we've ever

seen before. so that's good, but no, you're right. there's just no actual follow through. so you can see that people are just being strong arms by a sort of force that, that must not be spoken about in polite society in public, to say certain words. but there's not an ability to actually act and walk the walk, which is just part of this whole, you know, detached technocratic scripts which, which wants to impose their opinions of reality onto the world without actually recognizing that the world isn't that way. yeah, and they're just to use the plain god for too long. that's why we have this program . we, you know, we're not, we're not polite society. okay. so right here that you, well, one of the, the, the greatest um hopes of the european union who is 2 things. peace and prosperity. and they're neither are in place right now. the meeting europe is, is a single bit biggest loser outside of ukraine,

of course. and this entire ridiculous scan, but go ahead. yes, actually the program is your pan union is not uh, a ton them was project from a washington. actually you're the open project. is it the sup uh, strategy of for washington to control the re, milan to, to, to against russia? because the washington's as a strategy or for controlling your racial. we, for your banner, we blonde on the one side and into pacific on the other side. and european union with these crises more on move, that's how i used by a ne tool. i didn't miss less security instead of for any sharp project of your project, west piece on their way used as a weapon against russia. and or this is why the, the, the project with a good, we need more and more in a crisis on the less, on the support of, of people on the 20, the european union or so is not defending you of a set you up and civilization or you're open balance of power,

which will include of course, the rush because of rush. i spot of you open seem to zation on is neighbor or in your raise your to, to, to europe and or october the european union became a little more a tour to defend you. a trunk space under. i would say the western dominance of awards, which is not working anymore in front of and the gentle merchant put on words. so we are losing, in terms of a systemic or a system of international relations and give us why we are so afraid of his company . well, i think we could just say, thankfully, it's the end of the rules base order. all right, gentleman, that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guess ontario, so montreal and here in mouse. go to of course i want to thank our viewers for

watching us here at our d. c. a next time. remember across doubles the the,