the outside you create in those where he's words, is that how you see it will increasingly yes, i mean, we are seeing the kinds of weapons that, that have flowed into ukraine, enables ukraine to reach beyond borders and to do it in a way that is uh, terroristic, you know, they are small attacks in population centers or symbolic centers. that is, you know, for political purposes, so violence, not state violence or state violence. the mean ukraine is a kind of a non state actor at this point. so non state violence across borders, hitting civilians to make a political statement that is terrorism and certainly facing proud that they're able to conduct this kind of thing and they're going to continue to do it. well that also this a news as always, is made out of your company with us here on, on. so you do take out onto the pump. so very interesting. so is that also it will

be back in about 30 minutes the action or time. so you will get back to going undergrad, broke us the all around the world from the you a, in a week of the 5th anniversary of the beginning of britain, this torture and incarceration of june. and it sounds, we don't even need wiki, likes to tell us that the us has lost its proxy war on russia, 3 ukraine, even us deputies extra estate. good campbell is acknowledgements because military success with nothing to stop the war of attrition. ukraine is down to using homemade drones to attack russia, and according to moscow, a key of hatched a plan with a hunter binding linked company to carry out marches must go console atrocity. even the amazon washington post revolt,

ukrainian presidency. lensky was abolished. collections is quickly running out of options. the international community, rather, the trading with russia is. meanwhile, the goest of needs are a nation military support for genocide in gaza in this region. former nato and the list kind of jack bo was in ukraine after the us back crew that kicked off the war in europe. in 2014, he led the peace policy and doctrine division of the you and to bottom to peacekeeping operations, and is just published operation. alexa flowed the defeat of the vanquished and the russian out of war. how the west that ukraine to defeat. he joins me from the home of nature, headquarters, brussels in belgium. god, oh, thank you so much for coming on. as i was saying, the international community, a little concerned with how they have a, the nathan economic sanctions when it comes to ukraine. if they're going to think about ukraine, because clearly genocide and gaza is the big story internationally. but just take us back to what you saw off to the us back, who in cabin 2014 has a name to

a worker, someone who was on the nature of payroll. so that's a special lead the matter inside. because as you know, i'm a swiss cologne, switzerland doesn't belong to nato, and i was in nato in the framework of the partnership for peace. but i had a position as head of a small unit dedicated students, struggle against a pray for ration of support arms and i in to in 2014. as natal suspect to that, the don't boss. we both received what happens from the russia, from russia. i was in charge of money training and get that conflict. and in fact, i had uh, 2 different i, i went to to ukraine under different hats. the 1st one was under the hat of this. uh uh, the struggling to get some more information of someone on site. it just said, i gotta have to was that because i most o u n experts on the renewal and every form of security change institutions.

and what happened in the, the, the 20142015 is that the ukraine in army which was in charge of the repression of the, the rebellion, not just in the done best, but in the whole science of, of you can, we have forgotten that after they abolition of the law or the language in the ukraine, it's the whole south of ukraine. in fact, i started big protests from what they saw to up to, to done. you know, it's a lot, but the costs are given and therefore they, the ukrainian army was involved. but the problem is that the ukraine army was composed both by ukrainian speakers and russian speakers and very soon the ukrainian or russian speakers, ukraine. now, i mean just the effect of the rebels and that's, that's, that explains, in fact why the red bows got so, so much

a weapons and so fast. because complete regiments and baton ions from the ukraine, unami just defected studio rabbits. and based on that, the ukrainian government austin, ae tools to assist in a kind of a restructuring of the armed forces and improve the goal. so all the matters of it turned out, displaying and all that. and i was involved in that, and therefore i had the opportunity to watch the, the conflict from within the ukraine at that stage. and what, what the, what a dot point, what, what surprised me was the difference. we good notice between what i could see in the field and what the western media are reported. in fact, we have a, we had a totally different picture as the what, what was happening in, in ukraine,

by the way, oh, the protests that happened off the 23rd of february 2014. nobody talked about the scene to west uh and, and in factories directed strongly, the whole security within ukraine, and the whole relationship between ukraine and the, the, the, i mean, you're creating a new t, f and the difference of loss of, of, of, of ukraine. and you will, i will dying crypto naziism uh, in terms of uh, anti russian culture that was occurring even back then of course we so much more into the landscape as you know, the go in 2014 was in fact engineered by a very small, full amount of individuals, that's where is each of those. in fact, those extreme right, we could go to our national, these groups which some have named nazi, some well known as the older or the recipient. we're tradition noticed, but in any case, this was a very small group. the, the majority of the,

especially government forces you had a lot of people were just conscripts. in fact, it was a conscription. i mean, at the time and a lot of individuals. in fact, we're not so keen in supporting the government because this was the, the new government that emerged from the mac, the euro. my done, i do as it became known. i did, did this new govern trust has was not elected. and, and all the, this the, the russian part or direct. yes, the russian part of ukraine didn't accept the, the changes that were led to by the deeds this new, good uninterrupted government. and in fact you had when i was there in, uh, september 2014. that's the time when the rebels is declared to date your directly because nobody to see a and in fact you had popular republics, not just in the don't boss, but also, you know, they saw it nipple with drugs. it had a son. you had popular republic,

that's where in fact i created, well they, they didn't stay very long because the repression was very hard. and because the ukraine army couldn't manage that because of the presence of russian speaking soldiers. that's the reason why the government started to recruit or military forces and those permitted free forces. where in fact of tradition i've used the same guys who did the, the, the, my done a prize, i think in fact, mean the 2nd stage of the pricing. and those guys were sent to me, the repression in the south of the country. and that became extremely violent. and in fact, you had the, in the south, i mean, they saw that a saw a neighbor, but drugs could this, you had really mess checkers and, and, and kind of,

of all the trade union buildings name is a, but just the, actually the, to exactly do a quick jump to today, because uh, yeah, i mean to your attention is that, is that lensky is facing. if we just leave aside the $61000000000.00 number that's being thrown around, they do a nation valuable propaganda media at that. so let's get in terms of getting the soldiers together. people in the south as well as the east, still one to serve. and people in the west of ukraine, even well, even around kim, wouldn't as of as it lensky led to the army for the next. what have been hex to the us proxy has in school? well, in fact, what's happened is that since last year, i mean especially off to the failure of the cancer offensive in 20 to 23. what still had is that you had a division within the forces. you had a navy, you had the picture on this illusion, the who became a ambassador in the,

in the u. k. by the way, and you had the general seamless seal ski will became the were replaced in fact that was nice as head of the armed forces. and between the 2, you have a fundamental difference in the, in the approach of the defense of the country. and the gentleman that knows me, here's a little bit more russian, if you want to use way of waging war, he's probably more interested in having more, more by the welfare and using operational arts in the, in the, in the wait in defending it was to mo, by the operations was, this is on the same line as the lensky and he was to defend every single square inch of the country. and this is, this is where you'll have the, the big problem either into ukrainian army because the russians never strive to try

to get the territory. the purpose of the, the, the russians in, in the intervening in, in ukraine is basically to destroy the threats to the population on don't boss. that's exactly what a good idea put in said the 21st of february 2022. and in fact, that's exactly what the russians are doing. so the russians are not trying to gain territory. they are just trying to destroy a potential. and therefore, the id of defending every square inch of the territory inside plays into the strategy of the, of the russians. because the russians, they just, they, they just destroyed potential. these are the visuals, they destroy equipment. the destroyed a weaponry, they destroyed everything, they don't, they don't need to have be advanced and big arose on the map. this is not the the idea. but just to hear these actions, you're not things that i ask is

a russian spy presumably. but then on the on developments right now though they have been attacks and is that for ridge or react uh, in the past few days, the, i yeah. so even that, to make us arrest statement saying that all of western europe wasn't about to be destroyed by boys and this radioactive gas. presumably, i'm not sure what he meant. but you know, you make the terrifying observation in your new book that these high mas, kamikaze drones from the united states, the britain stones from britain, the firing is monitored by these native nations. does that mean that they know the targets like that for reason or the targets in elder all the civilians it'd been happening in the past few days. well that's, that's exactly what to this is that to my observation, in fact, off shows the, the phil said that that's the, the rates and the french where in fact, assisting ukrainians in targeting and, and, and making those uh, the cruise me sizes, especially the sort of try those and the scholar for me. so i'm besides which are

in fact the same me so i but one is the british one, the french one. but in fact the, the western western military is assisting in targeting a for the, those me sized sized washer dryer. that you rushed here to 5 and the responding given that we heard from boots in the if the nato troops and said you in ukraine they would be a response. we know that well, from the leaks phone. cool in germany that the british troops there, i'm not sure we would organize illusion a what his role is. we have with the intelligent services, and am i 6 in london have as rush or just too frightening, of attacking the source of those who are talking weapons at belgrade and in moscow i, i don't think so. i think you're a very small groups of individuals who are not talking about huge but timelines and things like that. you have just a few experts. so that's that, that's just the so it's probably,

i have no idea. i don't know if the russians know where those guys are and where they are able to do. in fact, the target them. but if, if they would, they would able to do so. the russian would certainly do so. in fact, in january or early february 5, you're not wrong. the directions targeted a hotel, you know how to cough, which was a full of a french soldiers. and in fact, probably even personnel, west sisters for the, the handling and maintenance of the enter across 3 sides. that's why it delivered by france to ukraine. so in fact, the versus i looked afraid at all as soon as they was detect them that were destroyed. and so that's, that's what, that's for sure. now the issue of that footage, as you mentioned, the problem is that, okay, the kind of will have to get back to the nuclear reactor. i'll stop you. the more from the author of operational acts of flooded the defeat of the vanquished and the russian. not a war, how the west, glad you cry, and you to feed off to this break the

from the world's largest democracy votes the rest of the planet watches in an emerging multi polar world. india's voice matters. but who will be the power behind watches, almost 1000000000 people decide and billions more, react the will go back to going underground. i'm still here with retired, so it's all been cut off at home. and they to alice jack bow, connell. i rudely interrupted at the end of one as you were talking about, you know, what could be the in the west and your body could be this week. it could have happened this upper region, nuclear plant and the nato and weaponry that went to attack it in the past few days . well if frank, this is not the 1st time to recreate and try to,

to attack this uh, this power plant. and the purpose of that is just to, to, to provoke, they do your opinions to, to intervene in the conflict. in fact, this has been a constant trial policy or strategy of the ukrainians. this, the beginning of the, of the war in fact, trying to have a kind of a no fly zone or some kind of intervention from nato eden. ukraine. and, and now this is exactly what the repeating, what have done last year and the year before, the just trying to provoke the intervention of, of the, of the western armies. the idea would be to create some kind of, uh, a demilitarized zone around the, the, around the power plant or something like that. that would, in fact, present a movement from the, from the ukraine side. that's the idea. and they,

they have done that, as i said in the past, so they would probably try again this year, this year. and those that don't do study. and it's clear from, you know, lloyd austin, the boss of the pentagon with cancer when they will, from the pentagon. recently, he was testifying, begging for money and congress this week. clear that it isn't even about ukraine. he's honestly talking about how the $61000000000.00 is more about the rejuvenation of the weapons industry in the united states and the industrial base that is about anything to do with ukraine. why do you think the journalists don't ask about if it really is so important for us security, boring the money into ukraine or weaponry into grain? the, the why is it why they outlawed us troops going to help the ukrainians as well? i think it has never been about to crane, and in fact, the 1st strategy regarding you created a new fact i was trying to get describes exactly what we have seen in the last 2

years. was written in 2019 by the rand corporation. that's outlined a strategy with 6 point. that's this, that's uh, in fact, i'll tell you exactly what we have seen to also. and the purpose of that strategy was not to help you create it also to instrumental eyes. ukraine. it was a to, to weaponized ukraine if you want to, we can russia. and this was confirmed a few days ago by uh, by joseph bradley the head of the uh, the final phase of the union. who said that this construct is not because we lot of ukraine it to be. it's because we want to support the us interest. so it's, it's amazing that even a very high ranking guffy show of the european union confessed that it was about, about just supporting us interest, by the way, in the rank operation, the report or strategy those night or 2019 that's it is explicitly right,

right. the that's applying or implementing the strategy would close to ukraine. huge loss of territories, huge losses in personnel, and will force ukraine into a disadvantages piece. so we knew from 2019 that's implementing the strategy would, would lead ukraine to look at this real feet. now that again, the purpose of the whole thing was to weaken rock shot. why do we didn't rush out? because at the, the, the, the, the, the, the, let's say, the center of gravity i would say of the us strategy is in fact china. and the problem is that they, they wanted to prevent russia to be a strong support to china, and therefore they had to weaken a restaurant these,

even in the state department, there is an initiative. and you had asked in the last 2 years, 3 years, you had at least 7 in 7 international conferences about this. it's about the circle, the so circle this, the cut on these, i did go to nice inc. russia, it's about dismantling russia and creating out of russia about between 18 and 32 countries based on the, the city of the different republics. and in fact, 22 completely dismantled russia as the state. and again, the one of the conference they've been happened last year in processing the rest of the bottom and the bottom and building. so we're talking about something which is actually the offer schultz, which is on the website to also be the state department. by the way. so, but it hasn't worked out very well community cuz trying to rush or close it together. we don't match it. okay. i think you all close it up and, but the rents are the rand corporation people can watch on monday we have

a modem to help or a new road be ran documents that will leak by down ellsberg friend of this through the late that nails with the to help stop the vietnam war last, only after a few 1000000, it'd been killed. why is it that when you talk about the rand corporation, clearly explaining what the ukraine proxy, what was all about? it's in the public view, and yet the war is unstoppable. tell me about the fatality ration this ocean rates . why is it that when you quote the rand corporation and information on like the vietnam war, it doesn't stop this, this catastrophic war for the ukrainian people tomorrow as well. in fact, even the rank corporation has written several separate reports recently stay is saying that in fact, there is no point to continuing to explore. the problem is not, no, we are in a problem of a face, a face saving and both in united states and in europe and, and, and don't are understood under estimate europe. in fact,

so many sanctions for as an example many sanctions. that's where applied to russia, where in fact, made by the, by the, by do your opinions against the advice of the americans. like for instance, the sanctions about the old pro, older products, or even of hosting a rush out from the swift system. this was a, it was a dry ice by the americas not to do that, but there you pins, decided to do it. so, no, we, we, we, we all know we in a, in a kind of a sparrow if you want. and nobody has the courage to stop it and the we are and it is kind of of, uh uh yes, it is a spiritual violence, not the violence, not yet, but the europeans are in fact engaging to that to listen to what the micro said. i mean, the ease, right,

paid to sense troops even if its own population is against you. don't think that's gonna happen though, right. i don't see any. you don't think that's good. well, that's a, i'm not sure it will happen. but you know, the problem is that it's so you rational, it's almost impossible to say whether it will or will not, not happen because we are no longer in a kind of rush. or if the decision making in the west was, was the rational. we would have stopped that last year. in fact, you know, even before clearly as the book makes p a how they completely misunderstand the proxy war and what russians responses to monday through the nation policy. why is it the major powers of so convinced? maybe it's just western european ones that against the advice of washington that say the ministry defense and building in london or the count deposited in paris. what would be taken out by potomac miss out from russia? because the united because russian and the russian federation needs to make

a point and say, look, just cut it off. now we've had enough of this where i'm not sure exactly what to attend until just continue abroad. ation. like, as you said, micro announcing the deployment of 2000 or the 1000 now french, foreign legion to ukraine. in defiance of what the and the kremlin and the duma has been saying. i why they so convinced the rush you will not respond to any of these nato countries and tests that so called optical 5 as well. optical size is so if it is, is property and excluded upfront from that equation. by the way, because if, if uh, friends, find some sense troops, it's not based on the natal treaty, but on, but under bilateral group treaty, which in fact doesn't based on the washington treaty. so uh, in fact and, and, and the americans have, have said they would not send troops on the ground and probably they would try to

avoid that. especially because they are in a presidential election year. and therefore it was, it was probably be not to be very wise to start a new war to engage the us actively in a war. i decided this period. so the, the, the americans don't want to do that. the, i think the, the problem and the concern i have is that the, the recent a drawing toilets, a communication between france and, and u. k, especially with david cameron, a trying to have kind of a joints type of activity in ukraine. you know, if been in an effort to provoke the u. s. to intervene. that's, that's, is that what? because they could, that could lead to a situation where the americans had no choice but to intervene. and you don't the exactly what you know, the biden actually wants this uh 61000000000 to go through it would,

it would help him because as defeat approach as well a to a policy and then say it was the republicans fault that we lost another war after i've got it started syria, and it'd be, are of iraq and uh yeah, i'm and then who knows what i, where else? i think biden would like to have those 61000000000 a for you. okay. first of all, just emotionally, because i think this conflict for biden is, is just a question of emotion. there is no nice thing, nothing brushing on and, but the problem comes probably from other parts, including within the state department. because they're, they're all different opinions about this and apparently even, even we, we didn't to the state department. so i mean, if you just would like to stop the whole thing because he doesn't bring it in. and by the way, even depending on apparently, would probably not to be unhappy if, if this would stop because everybody sees the discomfort is going up. so you know

where he's probably, it's just reinforcing russia a, just an additional embarrassment for the president in fact. but the problem is that, again, well, i come back on this point, we are not witnessing a rational decision making in the west, and especially certainly not at the level of biden. and even at a to michael and even camera are on the property and we'll shut off on the allow you and, and also the so called new your up. i'm talking about the baltic states and the boat and where you have people who are so enraged against russia, that in fact, whatever happens that would be happy as long as you've tom's directions. and that's a, that's a, a, a kind of a desperate situation that we have, which is, in fact concerning because i come from the strategic asians background and my own working culture, if you won't,

is that decision making should be rational and based on factors. but now it says when, what's going on on the ground. but what we have seen there in the last 2 years in, in the ukraine, shows that in fact, no decision was really based on a factor of analysis on the ground weight with just as it was based on assumptions . and even on a totally false narrative. i mean, a, wait, wait for 2 years we, we kept saying that the russians were losing the war. they had no immunization done . no thanks anymore. the add port commanders did, the soldiers didn't want to fight, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. and today we are exactly and the opposite situation. well, just say that russia is about to attack, the rest of europe has more weapons and the rest of europe as low beside the rest of you and so on and so forth. so we are in the total contradiction with all sense and that in fact,

nothing that we have heard in denied to you the last 2 years was based on any evidence. it was just based on even assumptions. kind of will have to talk about that likes of the other book. uh, hopefully when does this east wind gaza, so that kind of jack boat. thank you a thank you. thank you very much. thank you for having the thank you and that's it for the show. continued condolences to those very by u. k. u. s. u, i'm bombing in palestine 11 and m and syria and iraq. the new books operational accept loud that if he's at the bank for sure, and the russian a lot of war, how the west that ukraine defeats arrived. now we'll be back on monday with the us official who worked for obama clinton nixon, johnson and kennedy administrations. until then keep in touch, why will i social media if it's on the 10th of your country and i draw a channel going on. they were on tv, hon dot com, don't you know that besides of going underground, see you monday, the,

[000:00:00;00] the headlines of this hour of bully of a rock is like it's out of the nice guy as lebanon says a lot lashes out. so it is well bias and made so it could ation about possible even really. and it's how the ation for the recent idea of like on the one of it's considered the russian orthodox church. baptizes thousands of preston's and the east african nation of malawi, studio visits, part textbook, fines, and lost those for disney inside with the after the powers and struggles to retain influences full of colonies. and even in your i would like to say the following 12 west and tony,