service department for this, this was concocted at the state department. they're playing with fire because this is the kind of weapon that should never be used. and it's ultimately degrading to you in general assembly and making it a bonus points list as the league of nations. and just the final point briefly, if we can negotiate, because i did want to just point this site directly, the nato bombing of serbia, back in 19900, some civilian scale. do you think that the un general assembly would put that to a vote at perhaps is not any less of a tragedy or maybe less or numbers but of what happened then sharpened dates? well, i mean, as you said, it's a simple majority vote. if the, if say the serbian government puts that up as a resolution and enough people vote for it the 10 that have some kind of unresolved hostility towards the west, it could just as easily be declared genocide as well. i mean, at this point, every think anything can be declared to genocide, which is precisely the peril of this resolution. yeah, thanks so much for your take on this. it's something we'll be watching very closely how it unfolds. the serbian american journalist and abortion knowledge life on our

to all right. delving into whether the us justice department is said to offer julian a sound a deal on what the next year could look like for the journalist on publisher currently imprisoned in london. it's the whistle blowers next the the many of you have followed the painful and infuriating side of julia massage. the co founder of wiki leaks who has

been held in london's notorious maximum security bellmarks prison for almost 5 years now. before that, he was in self imposed exile in the ecuadorian embassy in london, the c i a, a few years ago made plans to kill or to kidnapped julian in broad daylight in the streets of london. if the us government's request to expedite him for to be unsuccessful, but that request is pending and is likely to go forward in the near future. the big question then is whether the us justice department will offer julian a deal he can live with or whether he'll be forced to go onto the trial for his life. i'm john kerry. ok of welcome to the whistle blowers, news . 2 2 2 2 2 2 julian assign, just probably the most famous transparency, absolutist in the world. it was julian and wiki leeks, who told us through the release of the bradley. now. chelsea manning documents that

the us had committed war crimes in iraq and afghanistan. it was julian and wiki leaks and told us through the release of the volt 7 documents that the c i a could remotely take over control of a person's car by hacking into the computer. and then could force the car off the road or off a bridge or into a tree. we learned that the c i a could take over a person smart tv, and in turn the speaker into a microphone all while the tv appear to be off. we learned about international corruption about money laundering and fraud. busy thanks to julie in a such, it was because of this never ending quest for transparency that the c i a saw to kidnap or killed julian. and the u. s. department of justice charged him with multiple accounts of espionage and other crimes amounting to 175 years in prison. to julian famously took refuge in the ecuadorian embassy, where he was spied on relentlessly by the c. i a,

the dorians and the british. until the ecuadorian turned on him and handed him over to british authorities, he's been imprisoned in harsh conditions ever since, as the us has tried to have him extradited. this is not a partisan issue in the united states republican donald trump charge julian with the espionage and the irony. since trump is now charged with multiple kinds of espionage himself. but democrat joe, by the continued to prosecute action and has actively sought julian's extradition. the bottom line is this. it is the c i a that's calling the shots in this case, the c, i a considers itself to be the victim here. and they won't stop until we get weeks is ruined. and julian assigned is either in prison for the rest of his life or dead . we have to yes, today, both of whom are close to julian assigns, and both of whom are intimately knowledgeable of the challenges. any faces joe loria, is the editor in chief of consortium news. he's

a veteran foreign affairs journalist and is written for the wall street journal. the boston globe. the london daily telegraph and other outlets. randy critical is a long time comedian and social justice activist. the former director of the william and counsellor fund ford social justice and the host of the radio show live on the fly, which airs on new york's w. b. a. i radio gentlemen. thanks so much for being with us. joe. i'd like to begin with you. you've attended pretty much every court hearing the julian's been involved in from the very beginning. things seem to have finally come to ahead. in his most recent appeal, julian's attorneys argued that the us justice department had not provided assurances that julian would not be executed if extradited to the united states. was that a paper work exercise or is that a real fear? inexplicable why? and after 4 years now, this routine matter where britain,

one of them is being asked, expedite summer to a state that has the death penalty routinely asked for an assurance from that state that in this particular case, it would not be sought. and your home office is never asked for that. we know that because and i was sitting in the court room right there, right in the row between the judge and behind me with the lawyers dot the been watching it was the king's counselor for the home office. he said that they never asked us for this assurance. i find that extraordinary, of us never offered an assurance. again, this is routine. why was that not happen? this is something that no one could really fully understand. there's some speculation that it's a way the for the us to get out of this situation that is become politically untenable for them. given the incredible pressure that's been put on the bi heads of state, but every human rights organization, press freedom organization,

etc. and of course, joe biden doesn't want julian assigned coming, showing up on the us shores with the in chains, a journalist in chains to stand trial just outside washington for publishing to information about us state crunch, but that means it could be kicked down the road past the november election, this seems to be something else. and what's really important here about this, john, is that the high court, the 2 high court judges that are heard julian's, the hearing on february 20 and 21 we're talking about here. this is by the way, just to hearing so that drilling assange could have an appeal. this is an appeal about an appeal because he had been denied the right to have an appeal or to leave for an appeal. so those judges said in their 66 page ruling, 2 very important things on the death penalty. there was family blunt. i'm going to quote, they said if extradition of a shot would quote the contract to the convention rights as to europe in can match any human rights under the british human rights act of 1998 article 3,

which is against georgia and human degrading treatment of punched in other words, the death penalty and other words if the expedition is contrary to that right, the extradition must be refused. that means without the assurance from the united states that they will not seek the death penalty. there's an automatic refusal of distribution freelance on goes free. why haven't they given that assurance yet? now greg morrow, who is on our webcast consorting news a few days ago, said he believed that at the last minute the us wouldn't give this assurance on the death penalty we will remain to be seen if they do, then there's a 2 week period where the lawyers for sondra can challenge that assurance to see whether it is in fact a valid one or not. and i did a little research about this today, and i discovered that the attorney general must, in a federal capital punishment case. the prosecutors can not just ask for,

they need to go to a process that includes the attorney general signing off on this to have the death . probably, i would assume that merrick garland would have to also approve this assurance not to seek the death penalty. and then just to ad there's one other right, that is san trash to be assured he would have and this is really an important one. and that is in conjunction with the article, 10 of the european convention human rights, which is what the british courts go by. the equivalent of article 10, freedom of expression is the 1st amendment in united states. so the court as asked us to assure he would have 1st amendment rights as well. and we note that both my prepare, i. c, i a director and gordon cromwell, the chief prosecutor here, both said that a sons would not have 1st amendment rights, or that they could be taken from him. and there was a supreme court decision that said that of non us citizens have no 1st amendment rights if they, especially if they're committed, the alleged crime outside united states, which is the case here. so the,

the fact is though, and we have margaret co, not on that same webcast saying that the separation of powers in the us means that the executive branch, the department of justice, cannot interfere. what a court would say about whether those rights should be granted or not. so the us cannot grant 1st amendment rights to julie massage, cannot do it because of that supreme court decision because it's up to the judge whether he would get those rights or not. and the supreme court again ruled and case that the fire does not have 1st memory. so what does that mean? well, here's where there's a difference because the high court in their ruling said, and i quote this, that if the sondra is quote, not permitted to rely on the 1st amendment, then it is arguable that is extradition would be incompatible with article 10 of the convention in that case, julie would be free, but unlike the buying cloud, languish the beloved language on the death penalty. if they don't give the

insurance, he has to be discharged. he's gone free. know extradition on the a free speech issue. it's, there's some wiggle room in the language of the court saying that he only has an arguable case. so that would be argued apparently at the appeals court, but just to finish, i would point out that the cape crown prosecution service on their website says that in all like tradition cases, the judge must consider whether the extradition would be compatible with the request of persons human rights and the judge finds that that tradition would not be compatible with the required persons human rights that persons extradition cannot be ordered and the judge must discharge them. so included in those human rights as article 10. so according to the crown prosecution service, he would have to be released as well on the fact that he didn't get an insurance on 1st amendment or free speech rights, which the us department of justice cannot issue. because it's up to the judge and the supreme court decided a fine,

it doesn't have those. right. so i'm thinking that's looking a lot better for julia. so engine, at 1st glance at this very complicated, really, right, randy, you're also tied to the various assign support groups actually. all, all even go farther than that. you do more than just about anybody i know in the, in the assigned to support groups as well as julian's to julian's wife and, and to some of his more prominent supporters. what are you hearings about hearing about plans for extradition? how are those closest to julian preparing for it? and what do they expect to do once he gets to the united states? well, to be honest with you, not really that direct. yeah, my, i am there. you know, i'm saying i'm kind of pretty low around. i believe that you can get him on the street as a master street is only the same and that's why you've seen me.

i would say a $150.00 days last year. as more caden and trying to organize remington just don't get to court just on his birthday or on something major anniversary date. i think it's something that has to be pursued on a daily basis. you're the only thing to joe. we've been hearing many rumors over the past several weeks that justice department, prosecutors, and julian's attorneys are involved in talks

not necessarily in negotiations, but in talks that might result in julian accepting some sort of a plea deal in exchange for time served. he would then be expelled back to us trail . yeah. presumably where he could then live in freedom with his wife and children. what are you hearing? are these serious talks and are they at an advanced stage? well, i do know that there were definitely talks to, at some point and then truly into so much as you pointed out on sputnik radio last week, john, that you knew that there was a deal and julian turned down. so you'd have to agree to the espionage act, which is an extremely courageous thing for him to have for him to have done denying his own freedom, his personal freedom to get the hell out of belmont prison. because he did not want a future journalist to be charged for it. espionage. so that deal fell apart. and you look at the language of the statement, the barry paul at julian's lawyer in washington said he, it sounds like

a lot of people, i think misinterpreted this, that there is no tops. but if you look at it carefully, it's very morally constructed statement. look at the language, it says that the justice department has shown no intention to resolve this matter. that doesn't mean they haven't tried. it means that a way of saying we're disappointed because we, we, they're not really serious about this, but that, that they haven't had discussions. but you do get the impression or right now there are no discussions going on now. so they came to a standstill, most likely because julian agreed, just turn down that plea deal that had already been discussed. but there are new parameters. now that might be a possible here, john, and this was 1st brought up by our, by a bruce fraud and a constitutional lawyer in a, in our webcast of last august. when he pointed out that julian may be able to a plea to a missed handling of classified material charge, which is a misdemeanor with a 5 year maximum term,

which is already served 5 years in belmont. so theoretically he agreed to that in the us allowed that he could walk free, don't even have to go to australia for any more time. this is a possibility. first weighs by bruce upfront. in august, ambrose also said he would have to do that remotely. in other words, from london, there's nothing against the ways of a lead. for someone who's outside united states to andrew, to plea agreement remotely from another country. it doesn't have to come to the us . and that is something he will not do. gabriel shipped in john's julian brother and made it very clear. there's no way it's going to go there because the u. s. could change their mind once he arrived. funny enough that wall street journal articles now 2 weeks ago talked about mishandled and classified information. i'm doing a remotely the exact same things that bruce from said in our webcast last august. so this would be something truly massage rights and could agree to a misdemeanor,

would have to be conspiracy. juve mishandled classified data because the more as a witness for government employees, that's the one i think trump was charged on, or they didn't charge biden under. so he'd have to go to a conspiracy with chelsea man, and was a government employee to mishandled classified data and he'd have to do it remotely . if those are the terms, i think that julian could agree to that. i also think that the he seems to be maybe in the driver's seat a lot more than i thought previously could should have what i just said about those 2 shorts. they can give the insurance on the 1st amendment at if crap ask for services, right. he cannot be extradited then, certainly on the death penalty insurance, he cannot be extradited unless they get that. so that probably would come through if they missed the april 16 deadline for those insurance. his demo having appealed and i guess kicked down the road. so i think that is a play deal john, that sondra could take if the us gives it to randy in the event,

the julian is indeed extradited after this. like you will take up the mantle of his defense on the street. you've organized countless actions in support. of joint assigns, including very well received advertising trucks. what do you expect to do when he arrives in the united states for trial as well? um, i don't expect them to write united states. uh, but uh yeah, if exactly does arrive in the united states, then the only thing you can do is to carry on organize. we don't have, you know, there's been a d, c, i've been on the streets of d. c. for so long out there and you've seen that truck and i've got it here and you talk to people on the streets. they're not that interested. you know, the people that are support june designs or are they really gung ho uh in support or just like, you know, as liberals i was a bad thing or are they willing to get out there?

that's. that's the test. yeah. or really do they know? yeah. you know, people are others here you're on the street, you want to go directly to the people and everyone's other cell phone. it's the, it's the, they're not even working. so you gotta grab their attention. it's the new opium get, you know, the whole world on their cell phones all the time. they should, they should go to this. don't remind them is, isn't that the truth. i'm telling you it's, it's, it's a real problem. i go into the subway and i've got flyers land my spare time, and they give you my extension is i think is a read newspaper magazines or books or really they're looking at the oh yeah. reading tools are those they asked. yeah, i can promise you that jewelry and really critical. thank you so much for being with us. we're just scratching the surface of this important issue. when we come back, we'll talk about what julian assigns can expect in the united states and why many of his supporters remain so hopeful the, to the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2

the, the, the welcome back to louis of louis. i'm john kerry, onto we're speaking with 2 important supporters of julian, assange, journalist and consortium news editor, joe loria, and activist and radio host, randy critical. joe and randy, thanks again for being with us. thank you, jeff. good to see you joe. and you and i have had conversations about assurance is that the justice department has given the u. k. courts and julians attorneys assurances that really are not worth the paper that they are printed on. for example, prosecutors have promised that julian would not be placed in solitary confinement,

or in a restrictive present communications management unit. they don't have the authority to make such a promise. those decisions are made solely by the federal bureau of prisons. what has been the u. k. judges, reactions to these promises, the judges understand that the promises are empty. no, i think you're referring to the 20 a 20, 22 october hearing of doing some lunch and the high court. that was a us appeal to overturn the lower court's decision. not extradited him based on his mental health, his propensity for suicide in the conditions of us prisons. the judge never asked for assurances that you didn't have to ask for thousands of churches the us. so why didn't you ask us? so they put these assurances in after the trial was lost by them after the hearing . the expedition hearing was lost by them and they went to the high court in the high court without allowing a sondors lawyers to challenge thing, which they will be able to this time that's on progress and there as well. so i,

they accepted those assurances they didn't challenge to hide the extra, the lower courts, judge's decision that the, about the mental health and the condition risk prisons. they just accepted the you as promises. and as you point out, john, those decisions are not made by the department of justice by the prosecutors that we're doing what prison julie would go into. it's done by the bureau of prisons. but i do also by an input from the c i, which a former b o p official, testified a, julian's extradition hearing about that this j. what have input. so i least this time they're going to allow solve his lawyers to challenge these assurances because the ones in that other core uh, were not worth the paper. they were written as, as amnesty international pointed out. and those very words, really tell us, tell us a little bit about activism on julian's behalf on the street here in the united states. i've participated in many, many protests as have you where there are no more than

a dozen people. but then we see video of pro assange demonstrations elsewhere around the world in sydney, in london, in berlin, where there are tens of thousands of people participating. why are we not seeing those numbers in the us? and do you expect that to change the same way? you don't see a lot of people in the streets in europe, but out there protesting for me, small mia or for leonard peltier? i suppose they don't know about the cases. people who don't know about the case, those who do those who ord forms or act at this as well. we don't have the kind of energy in the, in the kind of commitment that we have in the sixties and the 80 some people are out there marching for civil rights and the day right. ready in the course to and the warranty at them. and then in the, in the eighty's in the, in the central america. i mean, i, i'm a product of that. i and so, and at this point you don't see that many people, it's not, i know, and dc you see 10 or 12 people there. it's probably the most difficult enough to

crack. and the one, ironically that's the most important one. the crack is to get lot of people on the streets in dc. yes. but that's, that's been the most resistant of all the cities that i've been in in new york city . it's better. we have these uh, events in front of the british consulate. we just had one, there was about 200 people there. so wait. and then whenever roger waters wasn't there this last time on the 20th of february. but in the, in the past, when he would show up our system surrounded would show you a lot more people like, if you did, if you did it once a week, you draw 91012 people it's, it's very difficult. and d, c, you draw and there are some hardcore supporters of them. i mean, you're going to get 4 or 5 people in front of the justice department or in front of the, the white house. you know, when i, i, i'm there just to be in the truck driver or on the street. you're driving around and just trying to, you know, trying to, you know, must erupt, some kind of energy and visibility going in front of the alexandra coronel says,

for people should be yes, i guess they're a big a big to get a support group down there. there isn't there to have hard core group down there and, but there's like a huge, a group of media, you know, medium supporters. this on to being out there. i mean, should be out in front of the court house and alexandria, but it's so far away. that's not like a liberal city there in alexandria or that part of alexandria. so it may, it's, it's inundated with the, you know, national security state, the current and former personnel. so that's where the you draw the jury pool. and then of course it just, it like it's hard to get to but that still while that's the place that i would be if i could get people out there, i drive by it all the time. i've never seen anybody except for the time. you and i were there to see daniel hale. yes. that was the biggest

demonstration i've ever seen in front of that building without a doubt without it. yes. and yeah. what's the, what's funny is it that, that courthouse lends itself to 2 demonstrations. there's a nice big plaza right in front of it. that's perfect for demonstrations. i was seeing anything that perfect since the cabin plaza in brooklyn, where i used to demonstrate and against the new york's races. rock pro drug was i'd go out in front of the cabinet plazas. perfect. and the only thing that compares to that is what's outside of the alexandria eastern district of virginia courthouse, joe. and you and i have both spoken with mainstream american journalists who either will not take a position on julian's case or who are hostile to him. and this is despite the fact that they and their news outlets have use the information that we can weeks has revealed in their own reporting. one important journalist with whom i spoke so that

julian is not a journalist, but an activist. even if people don't believe he's a journalist though they have to can see that he's a publisher. why is there so much push back in the american media? i've been just gets a friend in the mainstream media and i used to be a to for more than 20 years in the mainstream. and i know the pressures they're involved. they're the, what is allowed on what's not allowed. you just know this, if you want us to 5, and if your career is just more most everyone is in the mainstream media, you're going to be doing what you need to do to get ahead of your this gets in front of the, of the new york times putting out a statement with dish be go without pays with live homes. and with the guardian, the 5 partners of julian mentioned partners of julian in the 2010 publication that has gotten in trouble right now that he's been indicted on that's in the actual diamond. they put out a statement saying drop the case because this is a threat to the 1st amendment to the free press,

so on that level could have been pushed by the lawyers and the lawyers at the new york times of the other publications may send you. but to put this out here too, but i think they were reluctant about putting that out because for the most, that's one side of it. and then the other side, they are disparaging him as you just said. they don't see him as a journalist because he is not protecting the stablish. what's interesting is undermining and challenging and threatening those interest. and the whole row of the mainstream journalist is to support the agenda of the united states, particularly in foreign affairs. what not do you're not going to have a mainstream journalist agreeing with julia sondra? what do you get? however, they did publish those doctors. so this is why there's this wheeled internal conflict going on. i think in the mainstream, on the one hand, they know it's a threat to the 1st amendment. on this the other hand, they say he's not a journalist. on the one hand, they published what he gave them because they add to had they not,

they would have been exposed as the frauds. they generally are, jo, gloria and randy credit goes thanks so much for being with us. i'd like to think that it is not adversity, that makes us the people we are so much as it is the way we respond to adversity. julian massage is one of the toughest and the most resilient people i have ever met . he's paying a huge personal price for what he believes in, but he's not doing it for himself. he's doing it for all of us. and now it's up to us to be there for him. i'd like to thank our guests jewelry and really critical for joining us and providing their insights and thanks to our viewers for joining us for another episode. busy of the whistle blowers, i'm john kerry onto find me on subtext at john kerry onto we'll see you next time. the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 the the,

the, this ours headline stories us lawmakers pitch a separate 6 the $1000000000.00 far and a bill for you. praying with the proposed money going to keep as loans, instead of donation warning, disturbing images, at least 11 people, including children are killed in this really are strong on our refugee camp in central gals of the debt. so there is since october, 7th, reportedly new years. 34000 people on the georgia in prime minister pushes for the adoption of a foreign agents. law tells the country president follows the veto. as we discussed the bill with our correspondent who's just returned to law scope.