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>> they're >> saying this is what jack smith's saying is you've got it all wrong. you don't you certainly don't understand how this presidential records act works in with respect to the espionage act trump's whole legal theory is garbage if you send this to a jury like this jeopardy will have attached. we won't be able to appeal a directed verdict in his favor, and we can't even proceed to trial at that, but she's got decide as a matter of law that this defence cannot be available. he's trying to punt to the jurors to say, hey, what do you guys think? goodbye, admin. she she's supposed to decide. all right? >> the door number two, because now the question is, if the judge does change the jury instructions, what is that enable jack smith to do? >> so this is sort of the reverse. this is donald trump's nightmare. this is what the government wants to see. this is the way the espionage act cases always proceed is it's simply an issue of whether unauthorized possession did you have the records and did you fail to return them when confronted about it? that's the essence
>> they're >> saying this is what jack smith's saying is you've got it all wrong. you don't you certainly don't understand how this presidential records act works in with respect to the espionage act trump's whole legal theory is garbage if you send this to a jury like this jeopardy will have attached. we won't be able to appeal a directed verdict in his favor, and we can't even proceed to trial at that, but she's got decide as a matter of law that this defence cannot be available....
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Apr 25, 2024
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lawyers for special counsel jack smith, who is prosecuting trump for those efforts, arguing that presidents are not above the law if they commit crimes. the justices acknowledging the case before them is not just about former president donald trump, but also about future presidents and the presidency itself. one critical question they're considering, whether a president can have immunity for an official act, but not his private conduct. abc's terry moran leads us off at the supreme court. >> reporter: at the heart of this case, donald trump's unprecedented claim. his lawyer telling the justices that presidents can never face criminal prosecution for anything they do in office that can be linked to their official duties. absolute immunity. >> without presidential immunity from criminal prosecution, there can be no presidency as we know it. >> reporter: the sheer magnitude of that claim hung over the courtroom. several justices acknowledging the stakes. >> this case has huge implications for the presidency, for the future of the presidency, for the future of the country, in my view. >> whatev
lawyers for special counsel jack smith, who is prosecuting trump for those efforts, arguing that presidents are not above the law if they commit crimes. the justices acknowledging the case before them is not just about former president donald trump, but also about future presidents and the presidency itself. one critical question they're considering, whether a president can have immunity for an official act, but not his private conduct. abc's terry moran leads us off at the supreme court....
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and special counsel jack smith, expressing frustration with judge aileen cannon new filing late tuesday, smith's team said cannon had ordered briefings based on a fundamentally flawed legal premise that had no basis in law or fact by sincere thanks to the president for his nomination. prosecutors harshly criticizing the trump appointed judges request for hypothetical the cold jury instructions. she asked both sides to take into account the former president's claim that he had broad authority to take classified documents under the presidential records act, >> whatever documents are president decides to take with him, he has the right to do so. it's an absolute right. >> prosecutors have repeatedly said that law is not relevant because trump is accused of obstruction and storing highly classified material in a bathroom and other unsecure locations at his florida estate. prosecutors also point out that telling a jury that trump had the authority to take records he wanted from the white house would make get nearly impossible to secure a conviction. prosecutors insist that legal premise is w
and special counsel jack smith, expressing frustration with judge aileen cannon new filing late tuesday, smith's team said cannon had ordered briefings based on a fundamentally flawed legal premise that had no basis in law or fact by sincere thanks to the president for his nomination. prosecutors harshly criticizing the trump appointed judges request for hypothetical the cold jury instructions. she asked both sides to take into account the former president's claim that he had broad authority to...
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what can jack smith do about it and what we will soon learn -- >> what jack smith can do is to mandamus the judge. mandamus is different from an appeal. appeal is this is a complicated legal issue and the judge may be misinterpreted the law. the mandamus is an order from an appeals court to the judge, you need to follow the law right now. mandamus is saying to the judge, you basically don't know how to do your job. maybe you should consider -- reconsider this judging thing. so it's a last resort. it's jack smith signaling he's had it with this judge. he's going to do everything he can to either get her kicked off the case or to make her follow the law. >> yeah. i wonder if a writ of mandamus would help or hurt her supreme court audition this clearly seems to be. donald trump is trying to claim the insurrection -- i mean that the presidential records act gives him the power to take these documents. but he's not being charged under that. he's been charged with a different -- under a different law, the insurrection act. can you then take a whole different law that has nothing to do with it
what can jack smith do about it and what we will soon learn -- >> what jack smith can do is to mandamus the judge. mandamus is different from an appeal. appeal is this is a complicated legal issue and the judge may be misinterpreted the law. the mandamus is an order from an appeals court to the judge, you need to follow the law right now. mandamus is saying to the judge, you basically don't know how to do your job. maybe you should consider -- reconsider this judging thing. so it's a last...
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but the irony of all of this is if jack smith appeals this and if jack smith asked the appeals court to remove judge cannon that will delay this more than anything. that's happened so far. >> and apollo, you have actually spent time, unlike maybe ellie has. i certainly haven't had a chance to in a lot of the courtrooms that donald trump and his legal team have been on various cases that he's facing right now when it comes to aileen cannon, you mentioned that she's inexperienced. let me give a little bit of her background here. she was appointed by donald trump. just in 2020 she's been a federalist society member since 2005. no experience presided over presiding over class it's a fight cases. what's it like being in the courtroom with her? so when i was in the courtroom, what struck me issues, obviously very conscious of the fact that she's under enormous scrutiny. she knows that she clearly comes prepared with tough questions for both sides to at least give the appearance of being fair to everyone. but her inexperienced shows through i'm just talking about when you're in the courtroo
but the irony of all of this is if jack smith appeals this and if jack smith asked the appeals court to remove judge cannon that will delay this more than anything. that's happened so far. >> and apollo, you have actually spent time, unlike maybe ellie has. i certainly haven't had a chance to in a lot of the courtrooms that donald trump and his legal team have been on various cases that he's facing right now when it comes to aileen cannon, you mentioned that she's inexperienced. let me...
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the real conspiracy here is jack smith, alvin bragg, and frankly fani willis, all working too. inspire to impact the 2024 election. that is the real concern well, i hear the points you're making, although you are conflating di just separate sovereigns? >> obviously, jack smith, alvin bragg, fani willis, are separate entities entirely and the actual crimes charged against trump in the men, they're all democrats, laura, they're all democrats i hear i hear about the politics and what you're making. but the real issue here i want to refocus on the conversation about the concerns about immunity more broadly. and one of the reasons to answer your question, people do want the answer beforehand. i think as they want the transparency to decide who they would like to vote for it based on either an absence of or an actual criminal well record, but let's get back to the supreme court congress thinks i know this is a very important issue for you, but laura, but good transparency that they paid after president trump now for eight years, i mean that we know more about president trump than pro
the real conspiracy here is jack smith, alvin bragg, and frankly fani willis, all working too. inspire to impact the 2024 election. that is the real concern well, i hear the points you're making, although you are conflating di just separate sovereigns? >> obviously, jack smith, alvin bragg, fani willis, are separate entities entirely and the actual crimes charged against trump in the men, they're all democrats, laura, they're all democrats i hear i hear about the politics and what you're...
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again, that's bad for jack smith. timeline. so if you're the former president, all you so we're looking for here is no bold action by the court. you don't want a decisive, sweeping decision that said the immunity. you want something either in the middle, four, four victory. i don't think any serious legal scholars think the court is going to come out and adopt an absolute immunity framework. but there is a real risk that they're going to do something in the middle at all. that's going to have this case dragging on. & you look at the timeline, will under so far the court has not moved quickly here. they have not act like this case is truly an emergency. so i don't suspect they're going to do so with their decision. >> even though a lot of it has gone under the label of expedited and emergencies but i guess those are all relative terms when it comes to the supreme as you guys well know, elliott, let's turn to arizona really quickly. is this indictment that happened overnight? is this the two-point version of georgia with the bigg
again, that's bad for jack smith. timeline. so if you're the former president, all you so we're looking for here is no bold action by the court. you don't want a decisive, sweeping decision that said the immunity. you want something either in the middle, four, four victory. i don't think any serious legal scholars think the court is going to come out and adopt an absolute immunity framework. but there is a real risk that they're going to do something in the middle at all. that's going to have...
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smith has an option and i wonder if yes thought about it he could actually achieve what he wants to achieve , as sleazy as i think it is trying to mainly get a down and dirty conviction before the election if he did the following, a fee tomorrow had the grand jury reindict donald trump only charging private acts not acts that are immunized trump's own lawyer acknowledged publicly on the record that it would be constitutional permissible to indict and try a president for private acts and of the indictment as it exists today is a combination of jumble really of private acts and public acts so jack smith would probably have the option of going back and getting a new indictment and thereby moving the supreme court decision by simply taking the position that trump's lawyer made and using it as the basis for prosecuting he may lose that case obviously because i don't know whether there is enough in the private act to warrant a criminal prosecution but that is an option that i know i don't think he knew else has thought of so far that jack smith could do i don't want to put any ideas in hi
smith has an option and i wonder if yes thought about it he could actually achieve what he wants to achieve , as sleazy as i think it is trying to mainly get a down and dirty conviction before the election if he did the following, a fee tomorrow had the grand jury reindict donald trump only charging private acts not acts that are immunized trump's own lawyer acknowledged publicly on the record that it would be constitutional permissible to indict and try a president for private acts and of the...
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so the ugly part of this is for jack smith to figure out what does he do next? will he file, as some have suggested, a motion, asking the 11th circuit to order her to clarify the ruling, or mikey, file a motion and eliminate the source of pretrial motions prosecutors file, asking for a ruling on the jury instructions before trial. i think that both of those are problematic. he might not be able to win because of the way she has postured this case. his best shot might be a straight up motion asking her to recuse at this point on the basis of multiple bad rulings. but at least in so far as this goes, this is the start of goodness and perhaps some suggestion that judge cannon, when her feet are held to the fire, which is what jack smith did with his response to her request for jury instructions, that she at least understands what she is being told. clichi definitely reacts when her feet are held to the fire because she doesn't want this to go to the higher court. however, she also responded by smacking him down. what could that mean for a potential trial that jack
so the ugly part of this is for jack smith to figure out what does he do next? will he file, as some have suggested, a motion, asking the 11th circuit to order her to clarify the ruling, or mikey, file a motion and eliminate the source of pretrial motions prosecutors file, asking for a ruling on the jury instructions before trial. i think that both of those are problematic. he might not be able to win because of the way she has postured this case. his best shot might be a straight up motion...
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official act, because jack smith's point is, that would be all factual and that can be dealt with at trial. >> again the elephant in the room is everyone knows the clock is ticking. everyone knows that it remands the judge to reconsider all of this would kill it before the election. and everyone knows that. and jack smith knows that and said you don't have to do that, like whatever you are going to do here, don't do that even though they can do it if they want to make sure it doesn't happen before the election. >> if they were to remand and suggest that the judge has to apply some sort of test and review the allegations and make some sort of ruling in advance of trial, that's something that he undoubtedly would appeal again and that's to your point, it would make it really impossible to go to trial. and they are right in the argument they're making. it reminds me of what we saw up in the new york da, the alvin brad case went from tried to argue, hey, there are things here alleged in the statement of facts that i'm charged with that are part of my official act, and what the da said wa
official act, because jack smith's point is, that would be all factual and that can be dealt with at trial. >> again the elephant in the room is everyone knows the clock is ticking. everyone knows that it remands the judge to reconsider all of this would kill it before the election. and everyone knows that. and jack smith knows that and said you don't have to do that, like whatever you are going to do here, don't do that even though they can do it if they want to make sure it doesn't...
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>> that jack smith has a main argument but also has a fallback argument which i think is probably the more effective one. basically, smith argues there is no absolute immunity. i think the word absolute is key. he's saying essentially that what trump argues, that trumps are always in every instance immune for things done while president is not true. but he adds, and this is part two. even if there is some degree of immunity, which by the way, i don't think jack smith disputes, he's smart not to raise that here. even if there is immunity, it doesn't apply under these facts. it's that second argument that i think is probably going to end up being the most effective. it's a fallback argument. so that even if the court determines well, there is not absolute always immunity, but there is some degree of presidential immunity. then you go to jack smith's second argument which is yes, even if there is, it's just not these facts. there's a third, which is addressing that whole impeachment acquittal therefore double jeopardy argument which at this point is just getting lugged around like a dead
>> that jack smith has a main argument but also has a fallback argument which i think is probably the more effective one. basically, smith argues there is no absolute immunity. i think the word absolute is key. he's saying essentially that what trump argues, that trumps are always in every instance immune for things done while president is not true. but he adds, and this is part two. even if there is some degree of immunity, which by the way, i don't think jack smith disputes, he's smart...
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they'll make decisions >> so the special counsel, jack smith, directly disagrees. he writes, quote, the effective functioning of the presidency does not require that a former president be immune from accountability for these alleged violations of federal criminal law. to the contrary, a bedrock principle of our constitutional order is that no person is above the law including the president. >> at >> what are the stakes here >> i mean, this this is all these cases that he's facing. this is everything underpinning these cases and it's also just a fundamental question. mission as special prosecutor jack smith lays out there about america that no one is above the law. this is kind of a given in our political system and this would be really tested with the supreme court when it takes up these arguments two weeks. >> what are you looking for from the court because again, we're going to hear these arguments and as you know, that they're set for the week after donald trump is set to go on trial in his first criminal trial, we do sometimes get a sense of which way the court
they'll make decisions >> so the special counsel, jack smith, directly disagrees. he writes, quote, the effective functioning of the presidency does not require that a former president be immune from accountability for these alleged violations of federal criminal law. to the contrary, a bedrock principle of our constitutional order is that no person is above the law including the president. >> at >> what are the stakes here >> i mean, this this is all these cases that...
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certainly jack smith's latest filing was much more pointed. there's no basis whatsoever to the presidential records act. he's saying and make a decision so that that we can we can appeal. and that was it was appointed filing much less pointed than i've seen in my career as a judge, but that's what he needs to do because otherwise, really this trial, if and when it takes place will be chaos just chaos. >> david, what stops it from being cast? i mean, if it's going down this road are your guess is as good as mine. it's really hard. she hasn't put any structure here she hasn't really you need to establish who's running the courtroom and she hasn't done that. and in fact, an inviting the parties to do jury charge just at this stage. that's like asking them, can you please give me the law for dummies or cliff's notes on the law because i don't know what it is. maybe you can help me figure it out and so i think that whole package is just kinda sets a tone and he sees an opportunity there of butter in her up i mean, the other judges yeah. he's gone a
certainly jack smith's latest filing was much more pointed. there's no basis whatsoever to the presidential records act. he's saying and make a decision so that that we can we can appeal. and that was it was appointed filing much less pointed than i've seen in my career as a judge, but that's what he needs to do because otherwise, really this trial, if and when it takes place will be chaos just chaos. >> david, what stops it from being cast? i mean, if it's going down this road are your...
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unleashed an attack on the special counsel, jack smith, trump today writing, quote, that smith should be sanctioned or censured for the way he is attacking a highly respected judge, aileen cannon, who is presiding over his fake documents hopes case in florida. he's a low light, is nasty, rude, and condescending and obviously trying to play
unleashed an attack on the special counsel, jack smith, trump today writing, quote, that smith should be sanctioned or censured for the way he is attacking a highly respected judge, aileen cannon, who is presiding over his fake documents hopes case in florida. he's a low light, is nasty, rude, and condescending and obviously trying to play
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so what else did she say >> what anderson she was pushing back at the special counsel, jack smith. i mean, look, the back-and-forth between the special counsel, between the government and the judge has gotten downright sassy, right tonight. today, she pushed metal legal it might as well be in this case. and look, i mean, things are getting definitely spicy because she definitely realized that the special counsel was criticizing her for the way she's handled this case, especially because she's refusing to actually say whether donald trump can you use the presidential records act a post nixon law to essentially claim that he had the right to take these documents when he left the presidency, when he left the presidency to take him back to mar-a-lago. and so by the fact that she's not doing that, it means that that issue is still alive. and so what she's doing here is she's letting that continue. but she pushes back. let me point let me read you just a part of what she she wrote in this two-page order she says the courts ordered soliciting preliminary draft instructions on certain coun
so what else did she say >> what anderson she was pushing back at the special counsel, jack smith. i mean, look, the back-and-forth between the special counsel, between the government and the judge has gotten downright sassy, right tonight. today, she pushed metal legal it might as well be in this case. and look, i mean, things are getting definitely spicy because she definitely realized that the special counsel was criticizing her for the way she's handled this case, especially because...
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smith >> was why think jack smith did the right thing in this finally, he said, hey, judge, you should not give this presidential records act instruction to the jury because it lacks basis. in fact or law what would be risky wealth and jack smith more than hints at this and the filing is that if he loses on this, he suggests he will appeal. now, if he wants to appeal, he has to do it before the trial because as once the trial starts, once you get to a jury, it's going to be double jeopardy prosecutors cannot appeal and not guilty verdict if there's a not guilty verdict, it's over. everyone goes home. so jack smith is trying to anticipate that. but if he does file an appeal on this a. we don't know if he'd win and i suspect he might well win, but be that would completely wipe out any chance of getting this case tried in 2024. >> interesting carry even if the special counsel is frost frustrated, judges have nearly carte blanche authority to manage their dockets so do you see this trial being said anytime soon >> i don't think so. i mean, i take ellie's point that it's getting less and le
smith >> was why think jack smith did the right thing in this finally, he said, hey, judge, you should not give this presidential records act instruction to the jury because it lacks basis. in fact or law what would be risky wealth and jack smith more than hints at this and the filing is that if he loses on this, he suggests he will appeal. now, if he wants to appeal, he has to do it before the trial because as once the trial starts, once you get to a jury, it's going to be double...
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the united states supreme court in the jack smith dc case. but the judge found trump brought that up too late. so trump's own delay victimized his delay attempt. this case it's very likely going to trial with jury selection starting on april 50. >> historic moment, a former president of united states going on trial. we'll watch to see what happens. as you know, trump also shared articles about the judge and the judge's daughter and his wife on social media. do you believe that violates the gag order? >> wolf? >> i think that it probably is a technical violation of the gag order. however, you'll notice that so far there's been no complaints about it because it's indirect. it's trump sharing the words of others will see if the da has raised an issue not everything that happens in court happens publicly. so there may also have been private letter briefing about this conferences with the judge or other concern. but if trump keeps on this course because of the risk and danger to the judge's daughter or any other individual targeted in this fashion
the united states supreme court in the jack smith dc case. but the judge found trump brought that up too late. so trump's own delay victimized his delay attempt. this case it's very likely going to trial with jury selection starting on april 50. >> historic moment, a former president of united states going on trial. we'll watch to see what happens. as you know, trump also shared articles about the judge and the judge's daughter and his wife on social media. do you believe that violates...
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but that being said, you know, jack smith really want withs the try this case before the election. david yeah. he's salivating matt whitaker, thank you so much for being here. good seeing you. >> good sewing you. david: it is going to be a tough day on wall street at least after the opening bell. we've got all the futures down significantly. dow is down 484, nasdaq's down 316. the opening bell's next. ♪ this is how we roll ♪ (husband) we just want to have enough money for retirement. (wife) and travel to visit our grandchildren. (fisher investments) i understand. that's why at fisher investments we start by getting to know each other. so i can learn about your family, lifestyle, goals and needs, allowing us to tailor your portfolio. (wife) what about commission-based products? (fisher investments) we don't sell those. we're a fiduciary, obligated to act in your best interest. (husband) so how do your management fees work? (fisher investments) we have a transparent fee, structured so we do better when you do better. at fisher investments, we're clearly different. everybody wants
but that being said, you know, jack smith really want withs the try this case before the election. david yeah. he's salivating matt whitaker, thank you so much for being here. good seeing you. >> good sewing you. david: it is going to be a tough day on wall street at least after the opening bell. we've got all the futures down significantly. dow is down 484, nasdaq's down 316. the opening bell's next. ♪ this is how we roll ♪ (husband) we just want to have enough money for retirement....
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from jack smith. one there's no blanket immunity. you're not automatically immune from prosecution for anything you did throughout your time as president to even if there is such immunity, it has to be narrow and within the car i'm finding of the job of president and i think jack smith will argue what trump did here was well outside those confines. and third, i think jack smith is going to argue against trump's claim that first he would've had to have been impeached by the house, convicted by the senate and then only then could he be prosecuted. so i think that argument, i think jack smith is going to argue that that's nonsense. and those two good things are essentially unconnected legally. >> and what are you expecting from the us supreme court when it comes to this total immunity claim >> so the argument is april 25th, so a couple of weeks away, i do not think the supreme court will have any interest in a decision that any president is covered for everything he does from the moment he takes off till
from jack smith. one there's no blanket immunity. you're not automatically immune from prosecution for anything you did throughout your time as president to even if there is such immunity, it has to be narrow and within the car i'm finding of the job of president and i think jack smith will argue what trump did here was well outside those confines. and third, i think jack smith is going to argue against trump's claim that first he would've had to have been impeached by the house, convicted by...
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>> jack smith is 100% right? there is absolutely no connection to the presidential records act to this case whatsoever. it does not allow president former president trump to have said that certain documents or personal, even the 11th circuit and considering the special master claim made it very clear that donald trump has no possessory interest in these documents and that they do not belonged to him. this is just completely off the wall completely off the wall >> as an argument. but if you read the subtext, i think the subject is completely off the wall that you are even considering this, that this is even an issue in that song, you, judge cannon absolutely i mean. jack smith makes it very clear that there is no connection to reality with the presidential records act. and the case that's before her. i mean, he does that by the law and also by the facts. i mean, there would be a factual issue here if donald trump could claim that he really thought that some of these doctors get since were personal and could raise
>> jack smith is 100% right? there is absolutely no connection to the presidential records act to this case whatsoever. it does not allow president former president trump to have said that certain documents or personal, even the 11th circuit and considering the special master claim made it very clear that donald trump has no possessory interest in these documents and that they do not belonged to him. this is just completely off the wall completely off the wall >> as an argument. but...
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now, it's a little bit confusing in a late night filing overnight, jack smith all but challenged the judge, aileen cannon, to make a binding decision on a central the point in the case in time for him to then contest it namely her order for both sides to proposed jury instructions they're centered on the presidential records act, which the former president is repeatedly said, will exonerate him now, the special counsel's filing calls that seemingly trump-friendly order fundamentally flawed and ask it's for a quick ruling before the trial on how to apply the act, quoting now, it is vitally important that the court promptly decide whether the unstated legal premise underlying the recent order does in the court's view, represents a correct formulation of the law. jack smith adds, the government must have the opportunity to consider appellate review well, before for jeopardy attaches, that wouldn't that means is that if the issue is not decided before the trial starts in the form, prison is acquitted on that disputed legal basis. it would be impossible to challenge that acquittal because
now, it's a little bit confusing in a late night filing overnight, jack smith all but challenged the judge, aileen cannon, to make a binding decision on a central the point in the case in time for him to then contest it namely her order for both sides to proposed jury instructions they're centered on the presidential records act, which the former president is repeatedly said, will exonerate him now, the special counsel's filing calls that seemingly trump-friendly order fundamentally flawed and...
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jack smith is outraged. he says he never told anybody they are his documents. >> that kind of buries the lead. argument which is ultimately the clinton sock drawer case. bill clinton had personal recordings in his sock drawer. a court determined that they were his personal records it. didn't matter if they were classified or anything because bill clinton had determined after his presidency they were his personal records. donald trump has done the same thing. he said these documents are my personal records. if you read the presidential records act, brian, it says all documents it. doesn't carve out deference intelligence information it. doesn't carve out classified, marked information it. says all records are presidential and then it has a process. and that's what judge can is trying to get to the bottom of and that's what jack smith, to your point is, really objecting to. >> brian: jack smith not a single person had heard trump say that he was designating records as personal or at the time because the transf
jack smith is outraged. he says he never told anybody they are his documents. >> that kind of buries the lead. argument which is ultimately the clinton sock drawer case. bill clinton had personal recordings in his sock drawer. a court determined that they were his personal records it. didn't matter if they were classified or anything because bill clinton had determined after his presidency they were his personal records. donald trump has done the same thing. he said these documents are my...
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here was a little bit of the jack smith side punching back. take a listen. >> the reason why there have not been prior criminal prosecutions is that there were not crimes. what is important is that no public official has had the absolute criminal immunity that my friend thinks of. he's supposed to be faithful to the laws of the united states and the constitution of the united states and making a mistake is not what lands you in a criminal prosecution. >> joyce, your thoughts about what he was dealing with on that bench, because as i mentioned, the emphasis on everything but now i found suspicious. the number of justices who want to talk about history and we're writing for the future and not deal with what he says there. you're never getting prosecuted for a good faith mistake. you have to have criminal intent. this is black letter law. here you're not fdr dealing with a war. you've got 20 days or whatever left, you have a president-elect lawfully certified and you're trying to steal the thing. >> so appellate argument is very different from ar
here was a little bit of the jack smith side punching back. take a listen. >> the reason why there have not been prior criminal prosecutions is that there were not crimes. what is important is that no public official has had the absolute criminal immunity that my friend thinks of. he's supposed to be faithful to the laws of the united states and the constitution of the united states and making a mistake is not what lands you in a criminal prosecution. >> joyce, your thoughts about...
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what's the resource available for jack smith at this juncture? >> jack smith is in legal purgatory. it's too early to appeal. both sides are supposed to engage in the jury instructions, so he can't appeal that yet. he can try to recuse her from this case, but that's hard to do. he may try to do perhaps a motion which says let's prevent donald trump from bringing up this argument at trial. that could preclude it being involved in the jury instructions. but that would have to be in the form of a motion, and judge can op would have to set the motion and decide on the motion, and then they could appeal. so there's a lot of hoops he has to jump through. so it's a tough time for jack smith. you could tell in the snarky tone he has in his pleading. you can imagine he's had enough of eileen cannon. >> a lot of us have. i want to go to you about this last-minute filing on a friday afternoon from donald trump in the manhattan d.a.'s prosecution of him. april 15th, right around the corner, my friend. it is not like he's got a lot of time, but this motion to recuse alleges that the judge's daug
what's the resource available for jack smith at this juncture? >> jack smith is in legal purgatory. it's too early to appeal. both sides are supposed to engage in the jury instructions, so he can't appeal that yet. he can try to recuse her from this case, but that's hard to do. he may try to do perhaps a motion which says let's prevent donald trump from bringing up this argument at trial. that could preclude it being involved in the jury instructions. but that would have to be in the form...
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does it go away or can jack smith still prosecute him? >> jack smith says if there is partial idea of immunity, the case can proceed. i disagree. there need to be determination if conduct charged in january 6 fall in outer perimeter or whatever the court sets before you can proceed. question of immunity for a president is significant, how can you second guess them. that is what the court has to grapple with. >> carley: on the hush money tr trial, day seven today, they took their wednesday recess yesterday. on tuesday, prosecutors revealed conspiracy to promote election, where is this going? >> very interest ing finding, trump is charged with felony he fa falsified records. prose prosecutors allege if is new york law, which is expired misdemeanor. to say felonious conduct s, no specificity about what conduct he took to wrongfully promote an election. they have to show he falsified record and did so to promote election through conspiracy. it is becoming contro vo luted, that is newest theory. >> carley: you are teaching us about hush money
does it go away or can jack smith still prosecute him? >> jack smith says if there is partial idea of immunity, the case can proceed. i disagree. there need to be determination if conduct charged in january 6 fall in outer perimeter or whatever the court sets before you can proceed. question of immunity for a president is significant, how can you second guess them. that is what the court has to grapple with. >> carley: on the hush money tr trial, day seven today, they took their...
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jack smith is in a bit of a trick box. he wants to essentially call the judge's manager but the judge has to approve it first, and she hasn't done so yet. >> you've said the tone of special counsel smith's filing shows he's right up against the edge, basically he's fed up with what he's heard from this judge and he might even consider going to the 11th circuit court and try to push them to remove judge cannon from the case. do we think there's a possibility that could actually happen? >> judge cannon has given jack smith reason to do so, but it's a high burden to reach. if he thought he could get her removed he would have done so. he may try to file a motion to prevent donald trump from using this pra defense at trial, and thus it wouldn't appear in the jury instructions. we'll see what happens, but then judge cannon has to hear the motion and rule on it and she can do a bunch of things to hurt jack smith here. he's in a bit of legal burgatory here. he can't really appeal that order so he's going to have to find other mean
jack smith is in a bit of a trick box. he wants to essentially call the judge's manager but the judge has to approve it first, and she hasn't done so yet. >> you've said the tone of special counsel smith's filing shows he's right up against the edge, basically he's fed up with what he's heard from this judge and he might even consider going to the 11th circuit court and try to push them to remove judge cannon from the case. do we think there's a possibility that could actually happen?...
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but, they used a grand jury, jack smith did to get that information. she said that is why we need a trial. a trial would be the first solution but your solution is the second best one, which would allow the evidence to get before the american people. >> mike pence, take the stand. tell us what happened. all of the, bill barr, take the stand. eric hirschman, lawyer in the white house, take the stand. it is at least a way, it is not a full trial but it is a hearing and that is a way at least to get some of the evidence before the public. >> andrew, do you agree with me that all nine justices, there wasn't a justice who said that a solution is an improper one? >> exactly. >> so, neil, there remains, though, when i listen to judge amy coney barrett, it also, there is also this other question, which is a certain amount of this is performative. you don't get the feeling that samuel alito is really looking for an answer that can change what he was thinking when he walked in there today. i don't mean to pick on him, it can happen with anyone of the justices at
but, they used a grand jury, jack smith did to get that information. she said that is why we need a trial. a trial would be the first solution but your solution is the second best one, which would allow the evidence to get before the american people. >> mike pence, take the stand. tell us what happened. all of the, bill barr, take the stand. eric hirschman, lawyer in the white house, take the stand. it is at least a way, it is not a full trial but it is a hearing and that is a way at...
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trump categorically loses this case, each passing week makes it more challenging for jack smith, the special counsel in this case, to complete his trial before the election. it's also possible the court's ruling, even if issued promptly, will inject additional legal complications into this case that then takes more time to sort out. once again, the trial is delayed. adam liptak, if you want to read
trump categorically loses this case, each passing week makes it more challenging for jack smith, the special counsel in this case, to complete his trial before the election. it's also possible the court's ruling, even if issued promptly, will inject additional legal complications into this case that then takes more time to sort out. once again, the trial is delayed. adam liptak, if you want to read
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it was long before jack smith was active. we pressed on how these aids and even lawyers seem to become directly involved, not just in making arguments or defending things, which they are allowed to do, but in advancing active work and appeared to break the law, which could be indictable. these leads, investigators followed them. now, i am going to air that exchange with epshteyn , where he admitted his role in the elector plan. he said he did it with giuliani. that involved, let's recall, trying to deceive the government with blatantly fraud electors and states that had lost, where the loss had been certified. we are airing it, about 90 minutes, from that original interview. you will hear epshteyn it met every elector plan he is now indicted for this week in arizona. >> there has been reported about the attempt to seat fraudulent electors. is that something you ever worked on or what support, for example, in michigan? >> that is so funny. it is not fraudulent. >> quote, we fought to seat the campaign electors. the campaign as
it was long before jack smith was active. we pressed on how these aids and even lawyers seem to become directly involved, not just in making arguments or defending things, which they are allowed to do, but in advancing active work and appeared to break the law, which could be indictable. these leads, investigators followed them. now, i am going to air that exchange with epshteyn , where he admitted his role in the elector plan. he said he did it with giuliani. that involved, let's recall,...
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special council jack smith hinted that he may ask a higher court. the court of appeals above judge cannon to correct her because of how badly she has mishandled the case. this has been building for a long time. now remember, we first met aileen cannon back in 2022 in the wake of the fbi's first search of trump's home in mar-a- lago and judge cannon ended up issuing a ruling that was wildly favorable to donald trump. she stopped the process of the government going through the search record and appointed a special master to review the documents which blocked the investigation. people were taken aback by this ruling. experts called it corrupt and lawless. then an appeals court quickly reversed it including trump appointed judges above her. as trump would have it, aileen cannon was randomly assigned to the actual criminal case once the charges were brought in june of last year and in every turn since then, she has appeared to be in over her head. today, we may finally reach the breaking point that could bring about the end of the aileen cannon experimen
special council jack smith hinted that he may ask a higher court. the court of appeals above judge cannon to correct her because of how badly she has mishandled the case. this has been building for a long time. now remember, we first met aileen cannon back in 2022 in the wake of the fbi's first search of trump's home in mar-a- lago and judge cannon ended up issuing a ruling that was wildly favorable to donald trump. she stopped the process of the government going through the search record and...
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he represents special counsel jack smith. putting that out there bribery, treason, sedition, murder, and here conspiring to use fraud to overturn the results of an election and perpetuate himself in power. this is the entire ball game. it's not something you can slice in half and come up with a tidier way that keeps you out of the politics -- >> if you're someone who studied the 2025 project, the platform for a second term term, there is no separation at the policy level between trump, the private person who would act, and trump the wannabe resident again in his official acts. they are together officially and publicly. when he ran the first time, to unearth what he really wanted to do with the border. it was a scoop and leak that led to the store we know about and covered the part to do illegal things at the border. it's in a document and you can keyword search it and the official and private acts of the second term agenda. what they do doesn't just matter in terms of the first-ever file and transfer of power in america havin
he represents special counsel jack smith. putting that out there bribery, treason, sedition, murder, and here conspiring to use fraud to overturn the results of an election and perpetuate himself in power. this is the entire ball game. it's not something you can slice in half and come up with a tidier way that keeps you out of the politics -- >> if you're someone who studied the 2025 project, the platform for a second term term, there is no separation at the policy level between trump,...
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Apr 9, 2024
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what do you think of jack smith brief tonight? it seems like he's getting emotional almost. >> i think he is responding in a very strong manner to this notion of blanket presidential immunity and in your lead-in, you pointed out one of the strongest parts of his brief. he gave the supreme court and out, to basically say look, you do not need to rule universally that the president may not have any sort of presidential immunity regarding committed all -- criminal acts were committed in office but in this case what you are talking about a private actor who worked with private individuals to affect a private outcome that would essentially denature the entire united states government, that absolutely cannot stand, so i think that carveout the jack smith made in his brief was brilliant because it's going to give the supreme court enough breathing room where they may not necessarily have to rule entirely against donald trump. i still think they are going to rule against him, but this was the icing on the cake that i think will give them
what do you think of jack smith brief tonight? it seems like he's getting emotional almost. >> i think he is responding in a very strong manner to this notion of blanket presidential immunity and in your lead-in, you pointed out one of the strongest parts of his brief. he gave the supreme court and out, to basically say look, you do not need to rule universally that the president may not have any sort of presidential immunity regarding committed all -- criminal acts were committed in...
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but in her ruling, the judge also taking a swipe at special counsel jack smith, rejecting his call to explain her controversial suggestion that she might instruct the jury to consider trump's claims the classified documents were his personal property. smith called that notion "fundamentally flawed" and "wrong," insisting it "would distort the trial." he demanded that the judge clarify her intentions. tonight, judge cannon refusing to do so, writing, "the court declines that demand as unprecedented and unjust." judge cannon suggesting she's in no rush to resolve a potential clash over jury instructions, telling the special counsel he can try to force her hand if he
but in her ruling, the judge also taking a swipe at special counsel jack smith, rejecting his call to explain her controversial suggestion that she might instruct the jury to consider trump's claims the classified documents were his personal property. smith called that notion "fundamentally flawed" and "wrong," insisting it "would distort the trial." he demanded that the judge clarify her intentions. tonight, judge cannon refusing to do so, writing, "the court...
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Apr 10, 2024
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so in both cases the jack smith got some of what he was asking for it which is to protect the names, the trump team got some of what they wanted, which is for more of these records to be made public. jw anderson let's have been thanks so much now to the former president's hush money criminal case here in new york today, he was rejected yet again, in another attempt to delay the case. that's set to start on monday with jury selection. this time the decision came from an appeals court judge just minutes after hearing arguments joining me now are former federal prosecutors, jennifer and temidayo aganga-williams. he was also senior investigative counsel for the house select january 6 committee, also seen as kara scannell, who was in the courtroom today. so what happened in the appeals courts >> yes. so this is trump's latest attempt to try to stop this trial before it starts today, they were in their asieh and appellate judge to hold the trial to stop it so they could challenge the gag order that was put in place restricting trump's statements. and there were brief arguments on this. it
so in both cases the jack smith got some of what he was asking for it which is to protect the names, the trump team got some of what they wanted, which is for more of these records to be made public. jw anderson let's have been thanks so much now to the former president's hush money criminal case here in new york today, he was rejected yet again, in another attempt to delay the case. that's set to start on monday with jury selection. this time the decision came from an appeals court judge just...
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i think jack smith is going to have a problem with that too. i don't this battle is over just yet. >> was about to ask, do you expect them to follow through on his truck? >> i think the next thing, if i were in his shoes, the next thing i would do is file a motion to preclude any reference whatsoever to the presidential records act. i know she has to make a decision on that. if she wills against him, then i think that is where he raises an appeal. and, possibly a request to remove her as a judge in this case pete >> let's turn to trumps civil fraud case. what can the new york attorney general do if the bond seems sketchy? >> the judge has to approve this. what she is raising there is who is this don hankey from california who has never been registered to provide an appeal bond in the state of new york? i think she is properly coming out who is this, let's make sure this is someone who is legit and the court for a funding about this. as long as the court determines everything is in order, i think this will go through. i think she is properly mak
i think jack smith is going to have a problem with that too. i don't this battle is over just yet. >> was about to ask, do you expect them to follow through on his truck? >> i think the next thing, if i were in his shoes, the next thing i would do is file a motion to preclude any reference whatsoever to the presidential records act. i know she has to make a decision on that. if she wills against him, then i think that is where he raises an appeal. and, possibly a request to remove...
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and certainly not on the timeframe that jack smith wants. there is a lot of interesting questions raised by the court here on both sides of the aisle. they have a lot to sort through and muddle through, really, given the lack of caselaw law they have to rely on. and it is very likely that they send this back down for some clarification and some of these points regarding the prosecution. christian: this issue of whether acts were committed uer official duties, it is an important point. you can see why the supreme court wants to get this right. if you back to the case of george w. bush at the -- at the time of the iraq invasion, he went into iraq without a u.n. resolution, there were some people who wanted to bring a prosecution against him on crimes of aggression. it would be limiting for a president, if there was not immunity, for some acts that were carried out within official duties. sara yeah, that's right. trump's team raises some legitimate points here, legitimate arguments about essentially stunting the ability of the president to do t
and certainly not on the timeframe that jack smith wants. there is a lot of interesting questions raised by the court here on both sides of the aisle. they have a lot to sort through and muddle through, really, given the lack of caselaw law they have to rely on. and it is very likely that they send this back down for some clarification and some of these points regarding the prosecution. christian: this issue of whether acts were committed uer official duties, it is an important point. you can...
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of the names the names of witnesses, key witnesses jack smith special counsel, had argued that they should be protected because they could be subject to intimidation and threats, which of course we've seen in some cases associated with the former president and so she had previously indicated that she was inclined to let those names be be put in public records in some of the filings by the trump team, which of course would cause problems for them. but one of the part of the story here, anderson, is the continued back-and-forth sharp back-and-forth between jack smith and the judge you and i call it talked about it last tweak and i said, you know, it's getting done right. saskya and you see some of that today in this filing where she said that some of the arguments that they made, they should have made from the beginning, not belatedly. >> did judge kenneth leave room for release of witness names in the future? >> she did. she said for now, these names will be will be redacted in any filings that are made. she did say that the special counsel seems to want to make this a long-term thin
of the names the names of witnesses, key witnesses jack smith special counsel, had argued that they should be protected because they could be subject to intimidation and threats, which of course we've seen in some cases associated with the former president and so she had previously indicated that she was inclined to let those names be be put in public records in some of the filings by the trump team, which of course would cause problems for them. but one of the part of the story here, anderson,...
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so i thought that was a strong argument by jack smith. i think where we run into trouble is i think what the court will say is there are some zone of activity for which the president does have immunity if you're acting within your constitutionally prescribed role. and i think that's going to be difficult. and what i saw on the pleadings is jack smith is worried not about losing on the absolute immunity question, but the possibility that they'll say there is some zone where he does have immunity and we have to kick it back to the trial court in order to answer factual questions about whether or not he was operating in that zone. jack smith was fighting hard against the remand in those papers. >> if it's remanded, what happens next? >> well, if they and i agree with that completely, i think that they are going to come up with some kind of qualified immunity and kick it back down for an evidentiary hearing where judge chutkan is going to have to then have a hearing here testimony, and figure out which portions of this indictment may fall wit
so i thought that was a strong argument by jack smith. i think where we run into trouble is i think what the court will say is there are some zone of activity for which the president does have immunity if you're acting within your constitutionally prescribed role. and i think that's going to be difficult. and what i saw on the pleadings is jack smith is worried not about losing on the absolute immunity question, but the possibility that they'll say there is some zone where he does have immunity...
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jack smith says it happened after he was president. here is what the former president said an hour and a half ago. >> we have a big case today on presidential immunity. a president has to have immunity or you have a ceremonial president. >> this case was supposed to go to trial in early may, it was delayed. arguing for special counsel is michael dreebben, who was on robert mueller's team. and john sour worked for former president trump, former law clerk to late justice scalia. if rule in favor of special counsel jack smith itten moos the trial will be back on, engines kick back on. we probably won't go to trial for several months, it's been paused at district court level. if they rule in favor of donald trump, don't expect to see a trial at all. we should have a decision by end of june, at latest, it is possible it could be in the next several weeks. it is not something that will be decided if a few days. >> bring in jonathan turley, law professor. professor turley, old saying bad case makes bad case law. are we setting up bad case law
jack smith says it happened after he was president. here is what the former president said an hour and a half ago. >> we have a big case today on presidential immunity. a president has to have immunity or you have a ceremonial president. >> this case was supposed to go to trial in early may, it was delayed. arguing for special counsel is michael dreebben, who was on robert mueller's team. and john sour worked for former president trump, former law clerk to late justice scalia. if...
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so that's a point of frustration from jack smith. and the second category is assuming trump had complete authority to take these documents from the white house. again, that's something jack smith's team has argued repeatedly that is has no basis in law. in fact, in aileen cannon still seems to be entertaining that idea. so ultimately, look, jack smith's team says as a result of both of the court's scenarios are fundamentally flawed and any jury instruction that reflect those scenarios would be error. he goes on to say that if allowed to be presented to the jury, that it would distort a trial scenario trial that we still don't know if and when it will actually happen. so definitely some frustration coming to the surface reduction. >> it almost sounds as though we should anticipate the special counsel trying to have the judge removed from the case so i mean, you typically would not see these types of boos by special counsel or prosecutor in this kind of circumstance, unless they were thinking, okay, we want a different judge. >> so the
so that's a point of frustration from jack smith. and the second category is assuming trump had complete authority to take these documents from the white house. again, that's something jack smith's team has argued repeatedly that is has no basis in law. in fact, in aileen cannon still seems to be entertaining that idea. so ultimately, look, jack smith's team says as a result of both of the court's scenarios are fundamentally flawed and any jury instruction that reflect those scenarios would be...
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and then she has the hubris to suggest that jack smith demanded these jury instructions. she's the one who demanded the jury instructions. that's what provoked smith's response. he didn't demand anything. he just he asked as he was required to do that, she rule on this issue prior to trial, he's entitled to a ruling on this issue prior to trial this this ruling actually does give him a basis to mandamus or if he so chooses and i think that on, at least on this issue alone, putting aside whether she would be removed from the case. >> but on >> this issue alone, as to whether the presidential records act has any relevance to trial he would win in the 11th circuit >> and you had made the point that if her ruling here today stands, it could set the lineup for acquittal as ryan was laying out in the actual trial jackson >> and that's why he has i'm sorry. go ahead. >> oh, i would say jack smith at that point is ryan was pointing out could do nothing about it. so is there any way for him off the case at this point prior to that >> so he can ask i'm not sure that he will ask on
and then she has the hubris to suggest that jack smith demanded these jury instructions. she's the one who demanded the jury instructions. that's what provoked smith's response. he didn't demand anything. he just he asked as he was required to do that, she rule on this issue prior to trial, he's entitled to a ruling on this issue prior to trial this this ruling actually does give him a basis to mandamus or if he so chooses and i think that on, at least on this issue alone, putting aside whether...
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. - there are three other cases involving donald trump, the federal case by jack smith on january 6th, the documents case, of the classified documents that were taken from the white house, and the georgia election interference case. what are the chances, in your view, that any of these will ce to trial before the election? - dwindling by the day. you know, you could imagine, we have a big timer here and-- - a timer for the election, you mean? - yeah, and it's counting down. it would have been great, and i think it would have been possible for some of these other trials to have started and to have concluded, certainly by september. and i think that would've been really useful information for the american electorate to have. like, these are situations of disputed facts. the jury system is the system in the anglo-american legal tradition for resolving disputed facts. we're not going to have that opportunity, i think, which is really unfortunate. it means that each american is going to have to resolve those facts for herself, and likely will do that in the confines of the ballot booth, no
. - there are three other cases involving donald trump, the federal case by jack smith on january 6th, the documents case, of the classified documents that were taken from the white house, and the georgia election interference case. what are the chances, in your view, that any of these will ce to trial before the election? - dwindling by the day. you know, you could imagine, we have a big timer here and-- - a timer for the election, you mean? - yeah, and it's counting down. it would have been...
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Apr 30, 2024
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we probably saw last night that jack smith got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. it was released late last night. it's a big story. the documents case is a hoax, created by them for election interference purposes. a brilliant judge said the facts. i haven't read what was revealed. it just came out. but the document hoax is a hoax. it's all a hoax. they're all hoaxes, including the civil case. they're controlled by the white house. they're controlled by democrats, prosecutors that were put there specifically. they hate trump. the people just came out, a poll that was just release beside two minutes ago, and i'm leading by a lot of in every swing state and leading in the general election. you saw the cnn poll, they aren't too happy with it, but the cnn poll was fantastic. so we're here. this is a hoax. this is a judge who's conflicted. badly, badly, badly conflicted. i've never seen a judge so conflicted. and giving us virtually -- i'm even allowed to say advice of counsel, which is new to me. when you have a lawyer, the lawyer does something or advises you on somet
we probably saw last night that jack smith got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. it was released late last night. it's a big story. the documents case is a hoax, created by them for election interference purposes. a brilliant judge said the facts. i haven't read what was revealed. it just came out. but the document hoax is a hoax. it's all a hoax. they're all hoaxes, including the civil case. they're controlled by the white house. they're controlled by democrats, prosecutors that were put...
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last year, a special counsel jack smith charged the former president for allegedly attempting to overturn the results of the 2020 election. but trump claimed immunity under the constitution of judges. don't agree with him. the case will against the case against him. well, had the trial as the history making set of allegations last august, former president trump was charged with 4 accounts of conspiracy and instruction by the justice department. special counsel jack smith today and then dining room was an sealed charging donald j. trump, with conspiring to defraud the united states, conspiring to disenfranchise voters, and conspiring and attempting to obstruct an official proceeding. but trump legal team argues he should be protected by presidential immunity. the claim, many legal experts are skeptical about. he doesn't have any text in the constitution to rely on, and that's significant because the constitution does grant and unity explicitly to members of the legislature. but it doesn't mention the president, according to his lawyers from who is acting within his official responsibility
last year, a special counsel jack smith charged the former president for allegedly attempting to overturn the results of the 2020 election. but trump claimed immunity under the constitution of judges. don't agree with him. the case will against the case against him. well, had the trial as the history making set of allegations last august, former president trump was charged with 4 accounts of conspiracy and instruction by the justice department. special counsel jack smith today and then dining...
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Apr 17, 2024
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so one of the charges brought against trump by special counsel jack smith. lawyers from one of the insurrection is argued the statute was not meant to apply to circumstances like the insurrection. the government argued the attack is exactly what a obstruction of a official proceeding looks like. >> we have had a number of protests in the courtroom. let's say that today, five people get up one after the other and they shout keep the insurrectionist in jail or freed the patriots and as a result of this, our police officers have to remove them forcibly from the court room, would that be a violation? >> it is a different posture than if they had stormed into the courtroom, overrun to the police and required the justices in others to plea for their safety. >> indeed, what happened on january 6 is very serious and i am not equating this with that. >> joining me now is the compost of the prosecuting trump podcast. your sense on how they received the arguments and if they gave any indication on which they are leaning? >> we heard different concerns expressed by mult
so one of the charges brought against trump by special counsel jack smith. lawyers from one of the insurrection is argued the statute was not meant to apply to circumstances like the insurrection. the government argued the attack is exactly what a obstruction of a official proceeding looks like. >> we have had a number of protests in the courtroom. let's say that today, five people get up one after the other and they shout keep the insurrectionist in jail or freed the patriots and as a...