actually shows to some people in places like china how divided government can work. you can't just railroad something through because you're the boss and you're the president. you have to figure it out together. i actually was like wow, they see a positive to this? >> i have to go. we'll continue this conversation. thank you. thank you. >> good to see you. >> we have taken up a little too much time here because we have to go to jake tapper and "the lead." see you tomorrow. the white house press briefing is now three hours late and counting. we're awaiting jay carney at any moment. whatever could they be talking about behind the scenes? i'm jake tapper. this is "the lead." the national lead. the republicans floated an offer. will the white house accept it and if so, how much longer until we get our government back? we're waiting on a very tardy briefing from the white house. the politics lead. it's like bonneru for people you would never see there. three days of conservative speeches and strategy and the organizer says the real leader of the republican party is not the one cutting the deals right now. and the money lead.

a fish out of water moment on capitol hill today. one of the captains from the hit show "deadliest catch" putting congress on the hook for threatening his livelihood with the shutdown. we begin with the national lead. welcome to "the lead." i'm jake tapper. first it was at 1:00 p.m., then 1:30, then 2:45, now just after 4:00 p.m. eastern and the white house briefing is only now about to begin. we will bring it to you live when jay carney comes out there on the dais. the suspense is killing us because the white house is considering a plan from house republicans that could provide a way out of the mess in which we find ourselves. within the last few minutes we learned that president obama and speaker john boehner spoke on the telephone, according to boehner's spokesman, and agreed -- wait for it -- to keep talking. the house gop plan would raise the debt ceiling for six weeks in exchange for further budget talks and with any hope, clear the air for discussion on reopening the government. it's been 11 days now since the government partially shut down, sending more than 400,000 federal workers on furlough.

at last count. and disrupting services, and no pressure here, but we will also be hitting the debt ceiling on thursday, at which the government will not have all the money to pay all its bills. the house is not expected to vote today on the gop plan to raise the debt limit in the short term. now we're hearing this weekend, perhaps. earlier in the day, president obama met with senate republicans at the white house just as he met with house republicans last night. i want to bring in one of the players who was in that meeting this morning, senator johnny isaacson from georgia. i want to apologize ahead of time because when carney comes out, in case he has something important to say, i will rudely cut you off, then we'll come back to you after he's done. >> i've been bumped by jay before. >> is that right? okay. he's at the -- there he is. he's about to start. >> thank you for being here. thank you for your patience. it's obviously been a long afternoon and i just wanted to make sure that before i came out to you, i could provide you with

as much updated information as possible. i don't have an opening statement to make, and in the interests of moving this along, i'll go straight to questions. well, i can anticipate some of your questions. so it was the kind of information that i hope will be responsive to your questions at least in part that i sought and found. julie? >> can you tell us what the president and speaker boehner discussed in their phone call? >> yes, i can. the president did call and speak with speaker of the house this afternoon, not long ago, had a good conversation and the two of them agreed that all sides need to keep talking on the issues here that are confronting us that have led to a shutdown of the government and to the situation that has put us on the precipice of, you know, potential default or at least

reaching that line beyond which the united states government does not have borrowing authority. so the president believes that in his meetings yesterday with house republican leaders and today with senate republicans as well as, of course, with house and senate democrats that we've had -- there have been constructive talks and when it comes to the house republicans in particular, there is an indication, anyway, of a recognition that we need to remove default as a weapon in budget negotiations, that the threat of default should not be used and certainly default itself is never an option. and the president appreciates the constructive nature of the conversation, and of the proposal that house republicans put forward. he has some concerns with it and i'll simply say that -- i'm not going to read out details of

conversations with the phone calls, but that our position, the president's position that we, the united states should not and the american people cannot pay a ransom in exchange for congress doing its job remains as true today as it has been throughout this period. >> when you talk about house republicans proposal, are you talking about the proposal that they presented in the meeting yesterday, or are you talking about this new proposal from them that would increase the debt ceiling short-term, also reopen the government and then in exchange, include cuts in benefit programs? >> again, i don't think -- i'm not aware of multiple proposals. i think there has been a general discussion and i'm not going to get into details. i will simply say that the president has long believed and has insisted that we cannot allow a situation where one party in one house uses the threat of default to try to extract concessions through budget negotiations. and it is his position that the right thing to do is to remove that gun from the table.

extend the debt ceiling in a way that ensures that there iso suggestion or hint that default is an option. because our economy can't endure that kind of approach to resolving our budget differences. you know, a proposal that puts a debt ceiling increase at only six weeks tied to budget negotiations would put us right back where we are today in just six weeks, on the verge of thanksgiving and the obviously important shopping season leading up to the holidays. and that would create enormous uncertainty for our economy. the president speaking with small business owners, heard from them that the continued threat of default into that season would be very damaging to them. and we can't -- we don't think

that's the right way to go. >> you said yesterday, though, that the president would likely sign a short-term debt ceiling increase. that still stands, correct? >> yes. but let's be clear about what his position has been and what i've said. it is the very least that congress could do to pass the legislation that would raise the debt ceiling for a short term and pass legislation that would fund the government for a short term as the senate has already passed. and the president has believed that as i think i've stated many times, that we should raise the debt ceiling for longer than that, as the senate has proposed and will vote on soon, because we should not link the threat of default to budget negotiations. he's very eager to engage in budget negotiations. that's been something he's amply demonstrated all year long and is reflected in the budget proposal he made earlier this year. but we should not have a situation, a dynamic that has

led to where we are now that we saw in the summer of 2011 and would be recreated in six weeks if we had to once again go through a process where one party was trying to extract concessions in budget negotiations in return for lifting the debt ceiling. >> i want to try one more time. there was a proposal that the house republicans came to the white house with yesterday for their meeting, and then house republicans say there was a new proposal that they presented to white house staff last night that also included reopening the government. >> i'm not disputing that. but -- >> can you tell me the white house's position? it sounds like you're not accepting that proposal. >> what the president and the speaker agreed on in their phone conversation is that everybody should keep talking. and the president appreciates the constructive approach that we've been seeing and that is certainly a change and a welcome change. he hopes that an agreement can be reached. in relation to the proposal that has been discussed in the press,

it is our view that we cannot have a situation where the debt ceiling is extended as part of a budget negotiation process for only six weeks, which would put us right back in the same position that we're in now. and i think -- i know that this is not uncomplicated, but a clean debt ceiling increase for six weeks with no conditions attached to it is distinct from one that links it to a budget negotiation and the continued threat of default as a point of leverage in a budget negotiation which is just, again, continually putting the american economy at risk in an effort to achieve some partisan advantage, which we can't do. furthermore, when it comes to the various proposals that have been discussed, it's certainly our view, as it has always been, that there is no reason to keep the government shut down. the president wants to engage in constructive budget negotiations. he has seen indications from republicans in both the senate and the house in the last 24

hours that they, too, are interested in engaging in serious budget negotiations where we can achieve some of the goals that he put forward in his budget proposal, buying down the sequester, investing in areas of our economy that will help it grow and protect the middle class, continuing to work at reducing our deficit and addressing our long-term debt. and he very much looks forward to that. but there's no reason to not open the government right away, in his view. >> do you feel like you're close to agreement, are you -- >> we will take a quick break from mr. carney's press briefing, a three and a half hour wait almost. he said he's not going to read out any meeting so we will try to get the actual skinny on what's going on with senator brown and isaacson. we'll be right back. no matter how busy your morning you can always do something better for yourself. and better is so easy with benefiber. fiber that's taste-free, grit-free and dissolves completely.

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welcome back to "the lead." we just heard the white house spokesman emerge three hours late to report nothing. nothing about the partial government shutdown or the debt ceiling. much of the attention has been on president obama and the house, republicans in the house, but the senate will have to pass any potential deal, too, and senators are intimately involved. i want to bring back in senator johnny isaacson, republican from georgia and we are joined by senator sherrod brown from ohio. this is such a moving target. you met with the white house, the president at the white house yesterday. you, this morning.

what did president obama have to say about where this ultimately is going to end up? >> first of all, we have gone from not talking to each other at all a week ago to where everybody's talking. the meeting this morning was substantive and helpful. the president laid out somewhat-if possibilities. we laid out some what-if possibilities. at least the beginning of the process of getting to a deal has begun. we're a long way from being there, but at least we've begun the process. >> is it still important to you, senator brown, that the first part of any deal is lift the debt ceiling and open the government? >> i spent much of this week and i know johnny does the same kind of thing in georgia, calling bankers, calling people running big research institutes in ohio, research facilities, calling hospital administrators, business people, just to see what's happening and this shutdown is already making a difference. he represents the centers for disease control. i represent a nasa facility and

more than anything, when the government shuts down for two or three weeks or four weeks, these very highly skilled engineers and research scientists and mathematicians and physicians, you furlough 97% of nasa employees. over time, if this happens now and it happens again with the next debt ceiling or the next continuing resolution, we start losing some of the best talent we have. we know what cdc and nih and case western and nasa, we know what it produces in terms of wealth and prosperity and human knowledge. we just can't afford as a nation to operate this way. >> senator, why can't the government just be open now? it's a short term deal anyway, so it would be in tandem with a short term debt ceiling raise, and obviously, with republicans in the house having carried out the threat and the government shut down, president obama and the senate democrats know that they're serious. why not just open the government, lift the debt ceiling, it's short term anyway,

then the negotiations can really begin? >> i think that's the point we're at. i think those who thought shutdown was a good idea have now learned it's not a very good idea. in fact, it's a dumb idea. we need to open the government for all the reasons sherrod was just discussing. a very short-term debt ceiling increase is not a real good idea because you're just pushing off the debate we're having now to right before thanksgiving. i think what we should do is get the government back to work, set a fundamental framework where we could have negotiations on long term entitlement reform that will bring about savings in terms of debt increases, and an increase in the debt ceiling over a period of time, long enough to stabilize the markets. i think that possibility is there. there will have to be some trade-offs but we're at the table. those are the things we're talking about. >> senator brown, one of the things i heard house republicans say is possible in terms of trying to get a deal going for a bigger budget deal that includes safety net or entitlement programs, that includes tax reform, is removing the smaller sequester spending restraints and letting spending go up which

would please democrats who want the higher levels, but then requiring some of these cuts down the road. is that something you might be willing to consider? >> it's something we should consider. we should consider everything now. i think, though, we never want to send a message that if you want to repeal a law, whether it's obama care or something else, you don't get more at the bargaining table by threatening to shut the government down or threatening to default. because we know the damage just this week. we sit on the finance committee together. secretary lew was in the committee yesterday, i guess. we know already that leading up to this debt ceiling, this october 17th, whether it's exactly a real date or not, it's close enough, we know the treasury bonds have gone up, interest rates have gone up 30 to 50 basis points, a third to a half of a percent. that's too damaging potentially for the economy. i was talking to a major bank in my state yesterday, and they said if we would have a deal now, that third or half percent

might go back down to where it was, but it may not do that that quickly. that could mean higher interest rates on student loans, it could mean businesses that are borrowing in the capital markets would pay a little more. none of that is good news. we can't set a precedent that this is the way to do business in the future. >> senator, you said you think people who were in favor of a shutdown have learned it's a dumb idea. >> a lot of them. >> i was going to say, certainly not all of them. i heard senator ted cruz, your colleague at the value voter summit this morning, i don't think he sounded like he thought this was a dumb idea. a lot of republicans in the house still think that this is the plan. what do you make of these piecemeal spending bills that have been offered to the senate, republicans in the house say hey, we have been trying to open up the nih in your state, we have been trying to feed dependent children who need formula through wick, but the senate democrats won't take it up. does that wash with you?

>> well, i think them offering those ideas was a good thing for them to do but it was also a confession they all of a sudden understand shutting down the government was not a very good idea when you talk about nih, cdc, not paying our military, the burial proceeds for our fallen soldiers. those were terrible consequences of the shutdown. i think the house members started realizing those consequences become real, you lose your leverage if you had any to begin with. >> what are you hearing from your governor, john kasich, who i remember as being a fairly conservative republican in the house, although that was a different era in the house, i suppose. >> yeah. some good news in ohio is it looks like in spite of the legislature that we're going to see medicaid expansion. there's discussion about an announcement today. it's not final but it looks good in that direction. it's $3 million in the state, it means hundreds of thousands of people are going to get health insurance that wouldn't have otherwise. >> he's joined the rhino caucus, as it were? >> perhaps. it's not my party. >> right.

>> johnny has to answer for them. >> do you think, last question for you, is a big deal going to be done or is this going to end with a small deal and hopes for a big deal? >> somewhere in between. i think we'll get a deal done. i think we'll get the government back open. i think we'll get the debt ceiling lifted for a period of time, which i hope is certainly longer than six weeks and goes into next year so we can sit down and do some tough negotiating on debt, deficit and structural reform of medicare and medicaid. there may be a couple other technical things we do but it's time to sit down at the table and lead like the biggest and best nation on the face of this earth should be leading. >> i wonder if people watching and seeing a democratic senator and republican senator, liberal and conservative, sitting down being civil with each other -- >> don't forget, this continuing resolution we passed in the senate had $70 billion in cuts already. >> right. right. because senate democrats had already gone along with the house republican cuts. boehner couldn't deliver. senators, thank you so much. we appreciate your coming in.

coming up, let them eat cod. how the government shutdown could cost u.s. king crab season. one of the captains from "deadliest catch" makes a plea to washington, d.c. and will join us next. plus the divide in the republican party. the rift that's keeping our government closed front and center at the values voter summit. did the real leader of the party stand up today? was he or she even there? the panel will debate that when we come back. ido more with less with buless energy. hp is helping ups do just that. soon, the world's most intelligent servers, designed by hp, will give ups over twice the performance, using forty percent less energy. multiply that across over a thousand locations,

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welcome back to "the lead." time for the money lead. there's a real ripple effect going on with this partial government shutdown and it's not just into the lives of the more than 400,000 government employees still on furlough, because even if congress finds a way to reopen the government by early next week, that may already be too late for people like keith colburn, the crab fishing boat captain made famous on the discovery channel's "the deadliest catch." >> i like being out on the water chasing something, you know? it's like we're looking for that pot of gold. >> here's the rub for the captain. crabbing season is just days

away. a shuttered government could mean no fishing license for him and his crew and his competitors. today he was on capitol hill telling lawmakers to get it together now. >> on behalf of all fishermen, i'm asking congress to end the shutdown now. i'm a small businessman in a big ocean with big bills. i need to go fishing. >> captain keith colburn joins me now. thank you for being here. we appreciate it. so the season is supposed to start tuesday. >> yes. october 15th. >> but even if the shutdown were to end today, which it will not -- >> we're basically locked down. our fisheries are all closed because we don't have national marine fisheries, i guess they're deemed unessential staff. they're kind of essential to us. they aren't on the job to issue our permits. we're basically right now looking at probably a three to four day delay, that's if they

open their doors today. everything i'm getting now that i'm back in d.c. is there's no real effort being made, or push being made to get the government back on track. >> how narrow is crab season? >> well, crab season is time-specific because we are, basically, especially our red king crab, about half of that goes to japan and the other half comes to the domestic market. and a good percentage of that goes to the holiday market. so new year's in particular. so if we don't have our crab delivered frozen and shipped by about the first or second week of november, then it's not going to make the holiday markets and we're not going to see the premium price we would normally see this time of year. >> we're really talking just a few weeks here. >> not only a few weeks. we're talking a few days. if the government doesn't get their act together by the middle of next week, then they're going to definitely seriously impact our price at the dock. that's going to spiral down to coastal communities, little guys, processors. it's not just 80 fishing boats

in the bering sea. >> how many people will this affect, do you think? >> well, near term, it's affecting the 80 boats with six, seven guys on each boat. it's affecting eight or ten processors that have hundreds of processors standing by waiting to take our catch. >> then the residual effect of all the people -- >> the residual effect. the thing is, it's like the tip of the iceberg as well because there's other essential personnel in other offices around the united states in the fisheries that for let's say, for example, the observer coverage. it's a federal program. a lot of fisheries around the united states have observerers. right now, those operating with observers are board but as they finish a day sailing, it gets met and they have to be replaced. they can't issue numbers to put any observers into the system. so guys will start getting to the dock and being told sorry, we can't give you a new observer so you can't fish. >> the bottom line is this industry depends on a working,

thriving government bureaucracy, i don't mean that term in a pejorative way, but government workers, and they can't do their jobs because of the shutdown. >> exactly. >> if you guys aren't out there doing this, is someone else or other fishermen from other countries going to go and fill the void? >> well, you know, we're fishing in u.s. waters so other countries won't come in and actually take our crab. but there is a threat that our crab will be replaced by cheap russian imports or pirated russian crab, and that will definitely occur in japan. right now there's already a hint that the japanese buyers are a little bit jumpy about being able to get the alaskan crab so they're turning to alternatives. the alternative is to buy russian crab. so in effect, the government shutdown's putting americans out of work and putting russians to work. how's that figure? >> so i know in this town, we debate tactics and procedures and we talk about well, the house republicans shut down the

government because they want to defund obama care and president obama doesn't want to defund obama care or doesn't want to dismantle it in any way, and right now this is back and forth going on about the debt ceiling but they're still not talking about opening up the government, the house republicans. how are people in alaska and washington talking about -- is it -- do they care about the point of ending obama care, or do they just want the government open so they can get about their lives? >> you know what, i think i'm probably just like everybody else. you know the side i'm on? i'm on the side of americans. i'm on the side of the economy being thriving, commerce working and our government helping us to do our job. not shut our jobs down. and yeah, i don't know. it's hard to follow the news because every day the story changes. every day there's a new reason why there's a shutdown or the ceiling and all these other things that are fast approaching that ultimately have

catastrophic consequences for the entire economy. right now, the shutdown is having catastrophic consequences on my fishery and we're just the first of many people that are going to be impacted as this starts to mushroom out. >> i don't expect you to pick sides one way or the other but the bottom line is you just want the government back open. >> i would like to -- you know what? i would like the government to open so i can go back to work. >> captain, good luck. thanks for stopping by. >> thank you. defunding obama care may be off the table in the budget battle, at least right now, but it's still a rally cry at the value voters summit. >> obama care is really i think the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery. >> the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery. okay. we'll be right back. ♪ norfolk southern what's your function? ♪

♪ hooking up the country helping business run ♪ ♪ build! we're investing big to keep our country in the lead. ♪ load! we keep moving to deliver what you need. and that means growth, lots of cargo going all around the globe. cars and parts, fuel and steel, peas and rice, hey that's nice! ♪ norfolk southern what's your function? ♪ ♪ helping this big country move ahead as one ♪ ♪ norfolk southern how's that function? ♪ rep. rokita: obamacare hurts this country much more than any government shutdown. vo: reckless. rep. blackburn: people are probably going to realize... they can live with a lot less government. vo: destructive. rep. bachmann: this is about the happiest i've seen members in a long time. vo: the government shutdown is hurting veterans, seniors, and our kids. now tea party republicans are threatening... an economic shutdown. refusing to pay our nation's bills.

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welcome back to "the lead." the politics lead. there were hecklers, obama care barbers and a comparison of obama care to slavery. that was just day one of the annual conservative gathering known as the values voter summit. the annual convention of like-minded conservative

activists and elected officials, the gop base. sure, republicans are taking a beating in some polls over the ongoing government shutdown but these activists aren't about polls or pleasing we in the media. they're about pursuing down the path of a cause they believe is just and righteous and erin mcpike is live outside the summit with more on some of today's key moments. >> reporter: well, once again, texas senator ted cruz was leading the charge for conservatives vowing to fight obama care despite the angst over the shutdown and he was ascerbic at times. take a listen. >> so this afternoon, president obama has invited the senate republicans to the white house. so after leaving here, i'm going to be going to the white house. i will make a request if i never

am seen again, please send a search and rescue team. i very much hope tomorrow morning, i don't wake up amidst the syrian rebels. >> reporter: now, of course, cruz has been very vocal like that for the past couple of months and as such, he drew some protesters. watch this. >> government will always continue to grow and freedom in america will always recede and yet what we saw across this country, ma'am, thank you for being here. i wish you would participate in the democratic process through speaking respectfully. >> reporter: now, maybe a tough act to follow, but senators marco rubio and rand paul did speak directly after ted cruz and of course, they're potential competitors to him for the 2016 republican presidential nomination but interestingly, jake, they chose not to talk

about obama care or the shutdown today. listen to what they had to say about those who love and hate their colleague. >> and i am in a toyota prius. i'm not sure if i can take all the supporters with me but if you need a ride back to the white house, we do have a prius. we will take you along. >> i hoped someone would heckle me so i can sip some water. >> now, jake, you remember of course ben carson, that surgeon who has become a leading critic of obama care. here's what he had to say today. this might have been one of the most memorable moments of the morning. >> obama care is really i think the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery. >> reporter: so even though a number of republican lawmakers are starting to want to move the fight over obama care to another day and not make it part of this shutdown anymore, it's not enough for this crowd. >> indeed.

thank you, erin. coming up, years before he made headlines for divulging top secret domestic surveillance programs, was eric snowden already on the cia's radar as a potential security threat? edward snowden, i mean. a new revelation about how he may have slid through the cracks. and gop versus gop. once the dust settles, which faction of the conservative party is best positioned to come out on top? our panel will weigh in up next. how are things with the new guy? all we do is go out to dinner. that's it? i mean, he picks up the tab every time, which is great...what? he's using you. he probably has a citi thankyou card and gets 2x the points at restaurants. so he's just racking up points with me. some people... ugh! no, i've got it. the citi thankyou preferred card. now earn 2x the points on dining out and entertainment, with no annual fee.to apply, go to citi.com/thankyoucards

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welcome back to "the lead." now it's time to continue our politics lead. well, at least they're talking. >> we think that republican leaders are looking for a way to extend the debt ceiling and to fund the government. you know, we just need -- they need to continue talking. there needs to be continued discussions on capitol hill and we'll see where we get. >> i just heard jay carney say the republican leaders want to raise the debt ceiling and fund the government. that's the nicest thing i've heard him say about the republicans in a long time.

but we are of course on the brink of a debt ceiling crisis. question is, is talk getting cheap? let's bring in our political panel. columnist for "the washington post" dana milbank, cnn chief political analyst gloria borger and editor in chief of credns news.com. gloria, has the ball been moved at all since the republicans put forward an offer for a debt ceiling bill that still didn't open the government? >> isn't it clear to you what's going on here? it's totally clear to me. >> as clear as jay carney wanted it to be. >> sort of parsing the words which is all we can really do at this particular time, is the latest thing seems to be the white house says if you only want to raise the debt ceiling for six weeks we can't make budget negotiations part of it because we'll be right back at it in six weeks and that doesn't make any sense. >> what's your view of where we are right now? >> if you look at this from a conservative point of view, you see the republican leadership in the house in a long retreat march. it started out september 20th, pass the c.r., defunded obama care.

the 29th, they passed the c.r. that said delay it for a year. the 30th, they passed the c.r. said well, let's get rid of the special privilege for congress and delay it for a year. now they're not even talking about obama care. i can tell you, conservative activists around this country are irate at what john boehner has done. >> you can see where it's going. they're kaicaving. it's just a matter of time. the ball is moving but you need scientific instruments to measure it. >> i would say house republicans, as you say, are caving, giving in, and they have been since that original bill. but if the white house position was we are not going to negotiate, what the heck's going on? >> they're negotiating. >> that seems to me like it's negotiating. >> they're negotiating. >> maybe they already got what they wanted. the key point is whether or not we are going to implement obama care. it seems from what we know that boehner capitulated on that. >> i think it's not so much that boehner capitulated, but the fact they picked up the "wall street journal" and saw their

poll numbers going downhill and fast, and are worried about control, perhaps, of the house. >> i don't think the white house is necessarily negotiating or capitulating. they will give him a little cover, yeah, we're talking -- >> and will have some discussion. >> i know you guys feel strongly about the fact that sean o'malley of boston wants a freedom of religion amendment attached to this government spending bill. it would exempt employers and individuals from being forced to buy or provide coverage for things that go against their conscience such as some forms of birth control or maybe all forms of birth control, depending -- >> artificial birth control. >> okay. you want that attached to it as well? >> you know, that bill they passed at 12:16 a.m. on sunday, the 29th, it was in there. they took it out. catholic bishops asked them to put it in. you had a very powerful story with that crab fisherman from alaska and what's happening to him on a personal basis.

right here in this town, three miles down north capitol street, you had archbishop carroll, catholic high school, cardinal wirld two weeks ago filed a new suit against the obama administration, literally saying and they're right, that by being forced to buy, among other things, abortion inducing drugs for the faculty and administrators of that school and other employees the catholic church is being forced to act against the teachings of the catholic faith. president obama's responsible for that on a personal basis. are we really going to say catholics cannot practice their religion? >> it's a debate worth having but why attach it to a government spending bill where these passions on both sides of this issue will affect the crab fishermen? >> i think this is the reason. because when they first came out, the catholic bishops, for example, the head of the archdiocese for military services, read a letter that he wanted read to troops all around

the world, he said we will not, we cannot comply with this unjust law. many other catholic bishops said that. it's almost two years ago. in the final regulation, the administration is not only coercing the catholic church and catholic institutions but individual catholics. if it's not attached, either to the c.r. or debt limit, it takes effect on january 1st, 2014. >> we only have about a minute left. i want to move to the value voter summit. dana, what struck you when you watched it today? for me it was just the hero welcome for ted cruz, the senator from texas, who started much of what's going on right now. >> yes. he's almost single-handedly responsible for this. i would say the whole republican party has been cruz-ified at this point. he's losing clout here, among his colleagues here. he's done terrible things to his party and to his cause. but he's going to be a hero. it's a heroic failure now and i think his reputation with the tea party is better than ever. >> gloria, we've interviewed one

of the leading religious conservative activists who said ted cruz is the leader of the republican party right now. >> i think there are a couple republican parties. he is the leader of one wing of the republican party but i don't even know if you call it wings anymore, because i just think there are separate parties. you have disdain for the republican leadership, you say they're in retreat. they're saying we tried it your way but we actually have to pass this debt ceiling and we have to keep the government running. i don't see any reconciliation between these two sides. >> to be continued. thank you all so much for being here. still ahead in our buried lead, desperately seeking snowden. we're talking with two men who say they met with the nsa leaker/whistleblower this week. mike rowe here at a ford dealer with a little q and a for fiona. tell me fiona, who's having a big tire event? your ford dealer. who has 11 major brands to choose from? your ford dealer. who's offering a rebate? your ford dealer. who has the low price tire guarantee, affording peace of mind to anyone who might be in the market for a new set of tires? your ford dealer. i'm beginning to sense a pattern.

get up to $140 in mail-in rebates when you buy four select tires with the ford service credit card. where'd you get that sweater vest? your ford dealer.

rep. rokita: obamacare hurts this country much more than any government shutdown. vo: reckless. rep. blackburn: people are probably going to realize... they can live with a lot less government. vo: destructive. rep. bachmann: this is about the happiest i've seen members in a long time. vo: the government shutdown is hurting veterans, seniors, and our kids. now tea party republicans are threatening... an economic shutdown. refusing to pay our nation's bills. endangering american jobs. tell them to stand up to the tea party. enough already!

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flexpen® is insulin delivery my way. covered by most insurance plans, including medicare. ask your health care provider about levemir® flexpen today. welcome back to "the lead." in our buried lead, new evidence of a warning sign about nsa whistleblower/leaker edward snowden's penchant for mischief. we learned in 2009 while working

for the cia in geneva he accessed his personnel file and tried to change parts of his evaluation but the cia said in a statement they did not file a report on snowden at the time that indicated he tried to break into classified computer files. this latest revelation, however, is part of the ongoing investigation into how snowden accessed and shared classified information from the national security agency. meanwhile, snowden has been settling into his new life in russia. his lawyer says he's soaking in russian culture, learning the language and enjoying asylum. apparently he also has a girlfriend. hopefully one who loves to blog as much as the last one. his father, lon snowden, arrived in russia yesterday and according to the russian news agency had a quote, emotional reunion with his son. snowden has just received a prize, a whistleblower award that was presented to him this week by a group of former u.s. intelligence officials, and joining me now from moscow are two of the men who met with snowden. former nsa official thomas drake and former cia analyst, ray mcgovern. thank you to both of you and for staying up so late.

we appreciate it. you met with snowden for about six hours, that's something a lot of people, especially members of the u.s. intelligence community, they would really like the opportunity to do. what is his life like now and how would you describe how he's living? ray, then tom. >> we wanted to show support for him and show him that a lot of people back home as well as people visiting him knew what he did and knew the tough circumstances that he faced. he appeared quite well. he was very articulate, very well up on things like the suggestions by the head of the house intelligence committee, mike rogers and former cia director mike hayden that snowden might well be put on the kill list for assassination. when i asked snowden about that, he just shook his head as if to say my goodness, what have we come to. >> tom, i read a comment -- >> by all accounts he's settling

quite well. >> i read an account and ray, please join in as well, that the laptop computers that he carried, he told you were actually empty, they didn't have intelligence information in them at all. >> you don't need to carry a laptop computer to carry out information. laptop computers just are the place in which you look at things. i believe that's largely a myth. there's a lot of myths and a lot of misinformation perpetuated as a result of his escape from the united states and disclosure to the press. >> and tom, were you told not to go to russia by the obama administration? did they weigh in at all? >> that's another myth. no way, shape or form. there was no communication at all, nothing to prevent me. there was no other request for interviews or why are you going. not at all. >> ray, what are his concerns right now? is he worried about that he will

have to live in russia for the rest of his life, is he worried about bodily harm coming to him? >> what we saw was a man at peace with his decisions. a man who is proud of doing what he did. a man with no regrets. it was quite remarkable. young fellow like that willing to pay the price, as he said initially, for releasing these documents. you know, it sounds a little corny but he swore the same solemn oath to protect and defend the constitution of the united states against all enemies, foreign and domestic, as tom and i did. some of us take that more seriously than others. and when he was in the position of doing what he did, seeing gross violations of the fourth amendment, fifth amendment, first amendment, you know, you have a choice there. you could keep silent, you could hide behind a promise on a piece of paper to keep secret, even gross crimes and misdemeanors, or you can speak out. what we admire in ed snowden is

he chose to do the latter. he chose to speak out expressly so that the rest of the americans could know what was being done to their civil rights under the bill of rights of the constitution. >> and tom, i know you have strong feelings about claims being made by the obama administration that what ed snowden did made it more difficult for the u.s. government to protect u.s. citizens from terrorism and other threats. why are those officials wrong? >> the officials are wrong because the secrecy is subverting our own security. they do not want the truth about their conduct, violating the constitution, violating the sovereignty of individuals, not just u.s. citizens but also citizens in other parts of the world, and that they are also violating existing congressional legislation, including the fisa amendments act as well as the patriot act. if truth be told. >> gentlemen, thank you so much.