supreme court say we are in a post racial america where racism is no longer a problem. the shadow of the confederacy still looms large. >> refusing to address injustice is not good for democracy. >> maya, i will say we are ending on an up note because the fight goes on. the warriors in the fight continue on this friday night. >> and it is a big coalition. and we are majority of this country and we are not letting it go. >> maya, thank you for being here and sharing your thoughts with me tonight. >> thanks for having me. >> that's our show for tonight. a special edition of the last word defendant trump cohosted by andrew weissman and melissa murray starts right now. rray s.

good evening. welcome to a special defendant donald j. trump hour. there are just 17 days until donald trump goes on trial in manhattan on 34 criminal charges related to a 2016 campaign scheme to purchase adult film star stormy daniel's science so she would not talk about an alleged sexual encounter she had with trump shortly after his youngest child was born. with the pressure of the trial looming trump had spent the last three days escalating his attacks on judge juan marshawn. those attacks are not limited to the judge, but include the judge's daughter, who trump attacked by name on social

media. >> the attacks he made on the judge in the civil fraud case against trump. now donald trump is under a gag order in the criminal case. tonight, the district attorney's office has asked the court to make abundantly clear the march 26th order protects family members of the court, the district attorney, and all other individuals mentioned in the order. the district attorney's office went onto note trial witnesses and jurors who are not currently the subject of defendants will likely fear having themselves and their family members be subject to similar attacks. this fear is not hypothetical. and the course preparing for

trial, multiple witnesses have already expressed grave concerns to the people about their own safety and that of their family members should they appear as witnesses against defendant. end quote. >> donald trump's lawyers responded that any expansion of the gag order would be an quote improper expression of protected campaign speech. this afternoon, ostensibly as part of his campaign, donald trump posted on his social media site video of the truck that had a picture of president biden bound and gagged to appear as if he were being kidnapped in the cargo bed. though we are not going to show that. this is all too reminiscent of roger stone who in 2019 posted a photo with a federal judge presiding over his case with target cross hairs posted to the side of her head. this is in addition to stone's references to robert muller as

a quote hit man. unquote. >> joining now to discuss all of this is nancy gertner, a form judge and lecturer at harvard. so what is new is that a number of federal judges have spoken out about these attacks on the judiciary. what do you make of these developments? is this welcome or something that gives you pause? >> they called to question and said this is beyond the pale. what he is doing is beyond the pale. this is the third judge who understood it is not about the usual concerns you know, about

a fair trial which is terribly important. intimidating potential jurors. this is about intimidating witnesses and court staff, and basically undermining an orderly and regular trial. it is a good thing that federal judges have spoken out and it speaks to how extraordinary this is. how extraordinary a moment this is. >> judge, i would like to pivot to the gag order. as we just noted, donald trump is saying that it should not be expanded to cover either the elite prosecutor or the judge or their family members. and saying this is actually part of campaign speech. i was wondering what your thoughts were about whether it would be appropriate. you have sat in the same position as these judges. they clearly have been reticent to go that extra step, but do you think it is time for them to do that so that they themselves, their family members and the lead prosecutors are not subject to this kind of threat?

>> no, it is interesting. the other gag orders did not include the judge and didn't include the judge's staff. but not the judge. and had not been the prosecutor. i actually think it makes sense to extend this and the notion this is campaign speech, it says something how bankrupt a campaign is when it has to be run not on policies and proposals but on attacking the judge and the cases against you. you both know that what happens is the lawyers file a document in court. they can talk about the documents and the pleadings but not attack. this is so outside the usual course of events. that this should be extended. i don't think there would be an issue with respect to that given trump's history here. i don't think that would be a problem. >> so one other question.

we are used to grading work product. how would you, so far, there has been very little. is the judiciary living up to its mission? >> boy, that's a complicated question. and only a law professor could answer that, i'll want to say. but i'll answer it nonetheless. it is very interesting. all of the judges who have been involved in trump cases have bent over backwards to give him more due process and procedure than any other defendant. and i think that is in part the reason why you see these kinds of delays. they have been bending over backwards which is not inappropriate in the ordinary case. but it is almost as if you add up a column of figures here of all of the procedures, all the deference that has been shown to this former president. and i think that you have a lack of accountability because

but for this case, no one is going to trial. the notion as trump suggests that he is being singled out and treated differently, you know, perhaps it is true. he is being treated differently. he is being treated better than anybody. >> so i was wondering with respect to what we learned today about this posting of the picture of the current president bound and gagged on social media. is that the kind of thing, that if this was any other defendant, that there would be a remand? in other words, remember, donald trump is out on bail in not one, but four criminal cases. at some point, is he going to be treated like anyone else. if you are sitting as an article 3 judge again, would that be a potential consequence? >> well, what everyone is pausing about is did we tell

him not to do it. and is he violating a court order? what happens with trump is he is violating norms that no one thought they even had to tell him not to do so the picture of president biden, no one had to say don't, you know, threaten the president of the united states as part of these proceedings. that is the problem. it is as if everybody's gag order has to be don't threaten anybody in public. but they haven't done that. but, certainly, with respect to the judge's daughter, i would bring hill back to court. if he violates it again, you have to staircase this and say there would be money damages. that obviously doesn't make a difference if it happens again, then there would be contempt. then there could well be jailing for it. but again, this is my point. everyone is bending over

backwards. the ordinary defendant would probably already be in jail. but everyone is being careful only to have him sort of monitored in terms of what they have ordered him to do. and if he violates that, judge engeron imposed money damages on him. but that obviously won't matter. i mean, i can't, your presentation suggests this. i don't think the public understands exactly not woman how unusual this is. but how frightening and troubling this is. >> out from the shooting of the judge's son at her home by someone who targeted her. these fears are not unfounded but it doesn't seem like a lot can be done to deter this particular defendant. they would be in jail at this

point, has the justice system done too much to give donald trump due process? is it time for him to be treated like any ordinary defendant here? >> yes. yes. it is about time for him to be treated like any ordinary defendant. i mean, he has been allowed to play out a string. certainly improper for a defendant in a criminal case. but the problem is i think every judge facing him would feel any kind of high profile case. that the worst thing is to make him a martyr which is precisely what he is inviting. i recall in one of these cases i believe it was judge engeron east case. if you continue, you will be excluded from the case. and, you know, trump was essentially daring him to do that. so if people are pausing before

they actually give him the ultimate sanction of putting him in prison for violating the terms of bail, it is because you don't want to make him a martyr. you want to be clear this was conduct beyond the pale. but that's the only reason they are hesitating. >> you are the perfect leadoff person to talk to, given what was going on today in the news. thank you so much. >> thank you. coming up next, more on the new york criminal case against trump. >> he should be worried about me. he should be worried about the manhattan district attorney. the district attorney of new york prosecutors. he should be worried about the documentary evidence. he should be worried about all of the witnesses that are going to be coming in to that trial. simply because as others have also appropriately put it, this

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she shoots from here? that's kinda my thing. michael cohen, trump's former fixer and district attorney alvin bragg's primary witness in the manhattan trial says the case against trump is

quote unquote simple. that may be. but one complicating factor is michael cohen himself. some context is in order. recall the central role that michael cohen known as lawyer a in da bragg's indictment played in the crimes donald trump is now accused. to get a flavor for this, here is legendary actress glen close reading the indictment. >> on the hush money payments, the defendant, donald j. trump repeatedly and fraudulently falsified new york business records to conceal criminal conduct that hid damaging information from the voting public during the 2016 presidential election. one component of the scheme was that at the defendant's request, a lawyer who then worked for the trump organization as special council to defendant, lawyer a, covertly paid a hundred and $30,000 to an adult film

actress shortly before the election to prevent her from publicizing a sexual encounter with the defendant. >> so, michael cohen is currently on supervised release. that is a fancy term for probation. so after serving his prison sentence, for campaign finance and other crimes, he was put on supervised release. and he is the fellow of course who is working for donald trump as his lawyer and fixer. last week, a federal judge denied hides request to end that probation early. and the judge said in telling words, that michael cohen perjured himself either when he pleaded guilty in 2018 to a crime he now says he did not commit or he perjured himself just a few months ago when he testified at donald trump's civil fraud trial in new york. >> joining us now to discuss is

faith gay. a former supervisor in the civil rights units of the eastern district of new york. she is now a defense attorney and a founding partner. welcome, faith. >> thanks for having me. >> hi, it is nice to see you. so i know that you are a terrific former prosecutor because we used to work together. you are also a terrific plaintiff's litigator and defense lawyer. so you are the perfect person to ask this question. what are you going to be watching for on the 15th when this trial starts before the judge in manhattan? >> you are too kind to say those wonderful things but with cohen, the huge issue is can he be consistent in the heart of the case? can he keep where he has been for really many years now be w a consistent story on the hush money? he will be crossed every which way. he will be crossed as you

mentioned about judge furman's observations about his potential perjury. on the other hand, justice ingeron said he was truth. so if he can stay on point with his testimony, i think we are in good shape in terms of the government's case here. and that is true, as you and i well know, you cannot prove a criminal case with nuns or boy scouts or other perfect citizens. michael is who we are stuck with. who we will hear from. if the key story set up well in the prosecutor's opening statement, i think at the end of the day, his testimony will carry the day despite the harsh cross-examination he will get about his previous not so truthful testimony about his own and his own view of his pleading guilty in federal court. >> so faith, you mentioned nuns. i can't help but notice this is

easter weekend and that is usually the time most of the networks play the sound of music. so you have already alluded to this. but how do you solve a problem like michael cohen if you are da alvin bragg and so much of your case hangs on his testimony? he has a lot that can be impeached. are you worried about this? where are the places they can attack him and try to bring down this testimony. >> the first thing you do is make certain. picking the jury, how you do an opening statement that you don't set too high a bar from michael cohen to meet. you make sure the jury understands that he was in this crime, too, you make sure the jury understands that it is the only way to get a firsthand witness, firsthand observation. is someone who has a very complicated situation because they are a criminal as well. so you try to let the air out

of the balloon of a perfect witness because he will not be one. and you suggest to the jury over and over again that he will tell a consistent story about the heart of this crime. no matter what is going on around him. no matter what attack happens over and over again. we will see on his credibility. and the other things the prosecutors must describe, michelle, is secondary. >> so faith, one of the things you refer so is the process of both sides getting to ask questions and vetting the potential jurors. that obviously is going to be incredibly time consuming and difficult in a high profile matter where you could have a lot of jurors who both hate donald trump and love him. what are you concerned about if

you are the prosecution, if your defense council and how do you sort of deal with that? most people want to get off the jury, but this is one where you have people who want to sneak on. >> i think that is right. there are a lot of clusters that everyone here will watch out for. and i'm sure that the judge will as well. for the prosecution, you want to make sure you don't have people who are already allergic to a criminal allegation that is sort of first in kind in some ways that involves tricky election law interplay between state and federal election schemes. election requirements. you don't want to have somebody who is overly concerned with technical defenses. but actually gets the heart of this crime which is in essence that donald trump did not play

fair. he put his finger on the scale and hid important information that may have changed the election. if you are on the defense side, i think you are quite concerned to make sure that people require, jurors require enough from each of the witnesses that they are preconditioned on the burden of proof. which of course, favors the ex- president. and that they hold michael cohen who really is the center of this case to a high standard. that they don't find that the upholstery is very complicated attempts to hide these transactions are enough for these jurors without him doing a very good job. >> a lots to look for as this trial gets started. faith, thank you very much for giving us the rundown. >> thanks for having me. coming up, a trump election lawyer faces being disbarred from practicing law after

conspiring to obstruct a lawful function of the government of the united states. what we learned from the john eastman disbarring hearing. and does it make sense we see more accountability for lawyers than former presidents? we'll talk about it up next. we'll talk about it up next. stis or more - can be overwhelming. so, ask your doctor about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. so far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over eight hundred and fifty thousand chronic migraine patients. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. don't receive botox® if there's a skin infection. tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.

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for those who allegedly orchestrated the events of january, 2021 is elusive. this week, a federal judge ruled that john eastman should be disbarred. viewers will recall that he was alleged to be one of the schemes of fake electors. he has been indicted as a codefendant in the georgia election interference criminal case in relation to that scheme. in a scathing 128 page opinion, he rebuked eastman, misrepresenting the law. conspiring with president trump to about instruct a lawful function of the government of the united states. to disrupt the electoral count. he allegedly made false

statements without conducting any meaningful investigation or verification of the information he was relying upon. the evidence presented demonstrates that eastman, despite claiming sincere belief propagated false claims about the election. thus breaching his ethical duty to prioritize honesty. >> so john eastman says he will appeal the ruling but as of now, he cannot practice law in california but he is not the only trump lawyer in trouble with the bar. a disbarment hearing is underway in washington dcf jerry clark, the disgraced former doj official donald trump appears to have installed as the acting attorney general for part of the day on january 3, 2021. in furtherance of his alleged efforts to stop the peaceful transfer of power to president- elect joe biden. that is not all rudy giuliani, sydney powell and others all

faced similar barred license consequences. >> maga making attorneys get attorneys. joining us now to discuss is kyle cheney. and marry mccord. former acting assistant defense attorney general. >> and she is cohost of a wonderful podcast prosecuting donald trump and an msnbc legal analyst. welcome. >> so, mary, kyle, it seems like the only accountability we are going to get for some of these other people who are in the trump world and allegedly orchestrated some of these election interference schemes is going to be through these professional disbarment procedures. what can we learn from these procedures, what are the findings judges are making here and what can they tell the american public about january 6th? >> they don't have the fanfare

of the criminal cases but in a way, these are the trials of what happened leading up to january 6th, the trial of donald trump's attempt to overturn the election. there is some granular testimony happening in these cases where you are seeing people. john eastman for example. months of testimony putting his theory through the ringer. testing them. testing his claims of fraud. down to the very specific minutia of them and picking them apart. and the judge looked at them and said what you said here in pennsylvania was false. this piece of information you relied on in georgia, you should have known better than to rely on it because it was flimsy. and one after the other, in some ways you are getting a breakdown and a retelling of the story of what happened. that we may not see in the criminal cases. >> i wonder if you could tell us something more about the findings that were actually

made. one of the things i was struck by was the findings were made by a sort of fairly high legal standard in the law and they were not limited to mr. eastman. what did you make of all that? >> the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. and the judge used the standard of clear and convincing evidence. so for each of the charges against eastman, she reviewed the evidence that had been submitted throughout the course of the trial. and assessed whether the prosecuting entity had been established by clear and convincing evidence that mr. eastman had violated these rules of professional responsibility including dishonesty. misleading the court. misrepresentations. and the judge and i think this goes to kyle's point, it was made very elaborate scope of

the evidence and a very elaborate ruling going through for example, that were alleged in litigation in georgia, in pennsylvania, in michigan. right? that things mr. eastman was willing to as an attorney for donald trump include in that litigation are things that he either knew were false or could not substantiate. things like evidence of fraud that was significant enough to change the outcome. right? and he essentially had to admit he never really had evidence of fraud that would ever have been significant enough to change the outcome. other important things we have talked a lot about on the podcast, is fraudulent elector's scheme. notwithstanding the advice he was giving that vice president pence could on his own decide

that he was not going to count the ballots from the swing states where there were dueling states of electors or he could count the fraudulent state of electors as opposed to the legitimate electors or he could decide the whole thing. that would be the advise he was giving to mr. pence and mr. trump. and he, the judge knew that was wrong. not substantiated legally or through history. the judge really went back and forth and also said you are not protected by the first amendment because you are a lawyer subject to regulations that the courts have upheld. you have restrictions on your speech. and also speech to your point, when you are using your speech as a tool to commit a crime. the conspiracies that kyle was

just talking about. >> so what's next? we know john eastman plans to appeal this decision. what does the process look like and if he is ultimately disbarred, what are his professional prospects? are we going to have to welcome this former law professor and dean back? >> look, disbarment is i think by design a very slow and painfully slow process. you are taking away someone's livelihood if they are permanently disbarred. and rudy giuliani was suspended from practicing law more than a year ago in washington dc. buff his decision is still pending and it takes a long time. eastman gets to appeal in a review panel and go to the california supreme court if he is unhappy with that ruling so there's still a few more levels

here for him. >> i noticed you did not say anything about his return to the academy. not even a prospect we want to contemplate. but many thanks to both of you for laying this out. >> and mary, i'll see you on the pod. i have a lot of questions to ask my coanchor and coauthor about the supreme court ahead of the immunity hearing on april 25th. that's next. 25th. that's next. ♪ and doug ♪ hello, ghostbusters. it's doug... ... of doug and limu. we help people customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. anyway, we got a bit of a situation here. ♪♪ uh-huh. uh-huh. ♪♪ [ metal groans] sure, i can hold. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty liberty liberty liberty ♪ ghostbusters: frozen empire. in theaters now. okay y'all we got ten orders coming in... big orders! starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant... that's a different story.

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former vice chair of the january 6th committee liz cheney is asking the supreme court to promptly resolve the claims that he has presidential immunity. >> i trust that they will deal in a responsible abdomen expeditious fashion with this appeal. but recognize that taking action that will result in further delay in preventing the american people from seeing that evidence in open court is itself suppression of the evidence. that the american people have a right to see that evidence and the court ought to recognize that. >> well donald trump is

certainly not acting like any person who seek to have his day in court to clear his name. rather, he wants to avoid any trial before the general election because if he wins, he could simply get rid of the dc and florida cases with a wave of his hand. he could direct the justice department to move to drop the cases against him. jack smith can push the supreme court for a quick decision. the public has a right to a speedy trial. as none other than justice samuel alito has written in a unanimous supreme court decision. the court has recognized the public's interest in promptly holding those charged with criminal conduct to account. when a defendant like donald trump seeks to delay a trial until a point he can no longer be prosecuted, in this case, the election, the justice department has every legitimate interest in seeking to have a trial before it is too late.

the justice department, anyone else who might do the same thing. and remember, all that smith wants is his day in court. which means trump will also have his day in court and the government will have to meet the highest burden we have in the law for holding someone to account. that is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. where trump has made the battle cry of it's a witch hunt, the courts should be welcoming a trial where that accusation could be put to the test. so donald trump's dc trial may so far be delayed but it remains a question whether the supreme court will be responsive. melissa, you study the supreme court. you are a constitutional law

scholar. >> what do you think in terms of when you think about the argument that we are going to see on the 25th of april. putting it in context of a wide angle lens of having looked at the supreme court and this makeup of the supreme court. how do you think about it and thinking about it? >> jack smith is not a superhero. so, this idea that he has all kinds of levers that he can pull with this court to get them to speed up the trial, that is not the case. he has nothing beyond his advocacy in that april 25th hearing in order to move this forward. and again, to prevail the supreme court, you need five votes. and this is a conservative 6-3 super majority. and there's a lot going on here. so you're right. i think about the court in a broader contest. this is a big turn for the court. leaving that to the side, the court had enormous cases about

the future of the administrative state. and the administrative agencies. there are a number of cases about the post dobbs reproductive rights landscape. we heard one of these cases in the availability of mifepristone. and i think you have to think about all the different parts in this entire docket for this term to understand what might be going on with regard to the trump cases. just hold on with me for a minute. i know abortion has nothing to do with donald trump. >> i'm with you professor. >> but, the court seemed very much to be of the view that the litigants did not have standing so it seems likely the court will throw this out on standing grounds. and i think that is likely an outcome that the whole court can get down with.

they don't want everyone talking about abortion at the polls. it was disastrous in 2022. >> so they are taking a cynical view. >> it is a cynical view, but probably right. they will punt this case. there will be another one down in the future. 2.0. it will be after the election. but, the fact that the court is going to punt this is going to make the court look moderate and a lot of news people will say this is the court being restrained and moderate. but it is only moderate because the court has moved so far to the right on so many questions and when it moves to the right, it will not just be on cases like abortions but donald trump. so the court has as you said left this question until april 25th. unless they decide what donald trump's immunity issue is on april 26th, that i have basically immunized him in a de facto way by delaying this. even if they come out in june

with a decision is he is not immunized. if they commute with that in june, it will not matter because that is not going to trial. the court is probably the most anti-democracy element in our entire system of government right now. >> so what i'm hearing is mifepristone, they might punt it now to look moderate. now. to have the effect on the election they want. but, to leave a disastrous decision until later and on immunity, they can write flowery language. >> and they will. >> to say presidents are not above the law, but with respect

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see why comcast business powers more small businesses than anyone else. get started for $49.99 a month plus ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. don't wait- call today. cannon issued where she is considering the following jury instruction. a president has sole authority under the presidential records act to categorize records as personal or presidential during his or her presidency.

an outgoing president's decision to exclude what he or she considers personal records. transmitted to the national archives and records administration. constitutes a president's categorization of these records as personal under the presidential records act. >> well, judge cannon has given the party's two options and the problem is both options are legally wrong. both predicated on the records act. this is what is charged here. so let's bring in an expert. joyce vance, former u.s. attorney. and knows everything up one side and down. the other with respect to the 11th circuit. she is with the alabama school of law and cohost of the really terrific sisters in law podcast. welcome. >> so, joyce, i have so many questions. this jury instruction, this proposed jury instruction is i think the legal term is

bonkers. is this the moment where jack smith has to consider asking for judge cannon to be recused from this case? >> you know, there have been so many moments. but i think this is the last clear chance to prevent a judge who has demonstrated she can't handle this case properly. to prevent her from taking steps that would just end the prosecution without giving the evidence of full hearing and letting a jury decide the facts. y'all have done a great job of setting this up. this is a judge who refused to rule on trump's motion to dismiss the case because of the presidential records act. that has given us reason to believe she was in fact accepting that defense. and that she will impose it on the case as a matter of law if it goes to trial. and you know, bear with me on all of the legal mum bow jumbo here. once the jury is in the box

hearing the case, once they have sworn in, if a judge dismisses a case at that point, the government doesn't get to appeal. double jeopardy would prevent the government from trying the case a second time. and so, aileen cannon who all along we have been concerned that she would delay the case and never let it go to trial, and that's a very real worry. at the same time, we have to be concerned that if this case does go to trial, the judge will take it away from the jury and dismiss the charges against donald trump and that will be the end of the classified documents case. >> so, if i'm hearing you correctly, if this is something that happens after the jury is sworn and the trial starts, that that operates as an acquittal and basically, the government has no recourse. they can't appeal that. it is over. >> yeah. that's absolutely right, andrew. and adds you know, there is an exception here. the exception is that if the

jury renders a verdict of guilty and then the judge dismisses the case against the defendant, the government does have the ability to appeal. but that is completely in judge cannon's hands. if he decides to dismiss the case before the jury renders a verdict, the case is over. >> so, joyce, one of the things that is interesting is the issue of when to do this. and, we have talked a lot about this. and, your thinking may have evolved on it. what is it about now that makes you think this may be the moment that jack smith just has to take in action here to avoid that consequence that you just talked about? >> so i thought jack smith should have done it as soon as she drew the case. i understand the hesitation. as the government's lawyer, you don't want to have bias against the judge. nonetheless, i thought she had given him plenty of reason to do it. at this point, i think he has

no choice. if he does ask the 11th circuit to recuse her, she could for instance set the case for trial pretty quickly. the time to do it is now. >> joyce vance, perfect person to have, to talk about what should happen in florida. thank you so much. goodnight. >> as we await the first criminal trial of the former u.s. president, we encourage you to do as they say in law school, the reading. read all of the charges against donald trump for yourselves, make your own decisions. we have put all of this together. all of the indictments in our new book, the trump indictments, the charging documents. it including helpful notes on the law as well as the many different players involved. >> thanks for joining us. nks f different players involved. >> thanks for joining us this hour. good night. tonight, donald trump's latest delay tactics and his criminal trials. he was still trying to get the a fani willis